Another Pioneer League Expansion Target?

[DFW HOYA]

Congratulations to the University of New Orleans, back on the gridiron for the first time in 38 years this weekend, and just three years removed from seeing much of its campus underwater following Hurricane Katrina.

The Privateers' club team lost to Southern Illinois-Edwardsville 30-14 this weekend before 3,700 at Tad Gormley Stadium (link below). UNO joins D-I club programs at Marquette, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Xavier, Radford, George Mason, and Vermont. Maybe if the Pioneer commissioner could extend some outreach to these schools, they might consider a move upward at some point.

http://forums.neworleans.com/showthread.php?t=1960

[Model Citizen]

Morehead State spends around $600,000 a year. From a percentage standpoint, UNO would have to significantly increase its spending to field a non-scholarship program. Even more for Title IX.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

UNO joins D-I club programs at Marquette, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Xavier, Radford, George Mason, and Vermont.
http://forums.neworleans.com/showthread.php?t=1960

My dad is a Xavier alum, and according to rumblings in their alumni base, Xavier in the Pioneer could happen before long. It would make sense with Dayton, Butler, Drake, Morehead St, and Valpo particularly.

[dbackjon]

My dad is a Xavier alum, and according to rumblings in their alumni base, Xavier in the Pioneer could happen before long. It would make sense with Dayton, Butler, Drake, Morehead St, and Valpo particularly.

Xavier would be a perfect fit for the Pioneer.

[MplsBison]

Congratulations to the University of New Orleans, back on the gridiron for the first time in 38 years this weekend, and just three years removed from seeing much of its campus underwater following Hurricane Katrina.

The Privateers' club team lost to Southern Illinois-Edwardsville 30-14 this weekend before 3,700 at Tad Gormley Stadium (link below). UNO joins D-I club programs at Marquette, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, Xavier, Radford, George Mason, and Vermont. Maybe if the Pioneer commissioner could extend some outreach to these schools, they might consider a move upward at some point.

http://forums.neworleans.com/showthread.php?t=1960


How does title IX affect the situation?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Morehead State spends around $600,000 a year. From a percentage standpoint, UNO would have to significantly increase its spending to field a non-scholarship program. Even more for Title IX.

Since they would be in the non-scholarship Pioneer, Title IX would not be a consideration at all, I beleive. Perhaps they would need to increase salaries for some women's coaches, I'm not sure. But certainly scholarship spending would not be there.

I don't think Davdson, Valpo or Butler would even have football programs if they had Title IX concerns about their non-scholly programs. In that sense, Xavier would be a perfect fit (as would U. of Detroit, another team that has been raised for non-scholly expansion as well).

As for UNO, that's also really interesting. I keep waiting for the Atlantic Sun to start up non-scholly football. Could UNO joining as an affiliate kick-start that league? Jacksonville/UNO could be a real nice rivalry, and a great travel partner. Think Marist would have a hard time selling recruits on trips to New Orleans or Jacksonville every year? xrotatehx

Also worthy of mention: SIU-E was in that club football championship as well. Could they be a member of the PFL? Or OVC?

[danefan]

I'm pretty sure Title IX is effected with or without scholarships.

Other expenses which make up a football budget (travel, equipment, insurance, etc...) also effect Title IX.

[dbackjon]

Also worthy of mention: SIU-E was in that club football championship as well. Could they be a member of the PFL? Or OVC?

Thanks for pointing that out. SIU-E joins the OVC next year. If they decided to elevate the football to non-schollie, I am sure they could get into the PFL. If they went schollie (and no indications they would), they are already in the OVC.

[DetroitFlyer]

Title IX is absolutely a concern for the PFL schools. Dayton offsets football with a very large, non-scholarship, women's rowing team. Our women's rowing team has been nationally ranked for some boats, (maybe light eights or something like that).

If a school adds a football team, women's sports will also have to be added, greatly increasing the expense.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

Title IX xmadx xnonono2x xbangx xflamemadx xoopsx xnonono2x xmadx xflamemadx xbangx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Title IX is absolutely a concern for the PFL schools. Dayton offsets football with a very large, non-scholarship, women's rowing team. Our women's rowing team has been nationally ranked for some boats, (maybe light eights or something like that).

If a school adds a football team, women's sports will also have to be added, greatly increasing the expense.

Thanks for pointing this out. But can't it at least partially be blunted by just, say, adding two more women's basketball assistants to full-time positions and adding, say, women's golf? Point being that you don't have to fund a full-time women's water polo team costing $1 million dollars a year to make this happen. The sums we're talking about are less than half that. Now, if scholarships were a part of this, we would be talking $1 million.

[danefan]

Thanks for pointing this out. But can't it at least partially be blunted by just, say, adding two more women's basketball assistants to full-time positions and adding, say, women's golf? Point being that you don't have to fund a full-time women's water polo team costing $1 million dollars a year to make this happen. The sums we're talking about are less than half that. Now, if scholarships were a part of this, we would be talking $1 million.

True. Most schools offset Title IX issues arising from football with non-scholarship women's crew. It is a simple remedy for schools that have the geography to do so (you need some water:D ).

Albany will likely go this route when they ramp up to full scholly, especially because there is already a solid club team.

Crew makes sense because the cost is relatively contained. The boats (technical term is skull I believe) are very expensive and eat up a lot of the cost. Add a part-time coach, some uniforms, insurance and storage at a boat house/rowing club, and you've essentially eaten up the cost of balancing out Title IX.

There is very little administrative oversight needed for crew by the Athletic Department, which makes it very attractive.

[UAalum72]

I think crew teams have an enormous number of rowers, which covers Title IX on the 'increasing opportunity for women' scale which might be used instead of 1-to-1 scholarship counts.

The boat is spelled 'scull' or is also called a 'shell'. Sculling is when each rower has two oars.

[Husky Alum]

Our women's rowing team has been nationally ranked for some boats, (maybe light eights or something like that).

Now, no argument here, Harvard would kick your ARSE in crew - men's or women's (ok that would be Radcliffe, but you get the jist).

I'll take Harvard's rowing schedule over Dayton's rowing schedule any day of the week.

Bring your weak arse boats down to the Charles and row against some real crews - NU, BU, Radcliffe!!!

Men's crew is NOT an NCAA Sport, for those who care - they basically set their own rules.

Women's crew is (Title IX) - I dated a rower when I was at NU, before I met Mrs. Husky Alum.

A shell costs about $30K - they're not cheap. I think NU has about 5-6 for the men and 5-6 for the women.

A boathouse ain't cheap either. - especially when you're in Boston.

One benefit of crew - at least at NU - they're among the most loyal and generous donors to the Athletic Department.

NU's Olympic Medalists have almost solely been former rowers.

[MoreheadEagle]

My dad is a Xavier alum, and according to rumblings in their alumni base, Xavier in the Pioneer could happen before long. It would make sense with Dayton, Butler, Drake, Morehead St, and Valpo particularly.

Xavier would be great. Now if we could just get a Pioneer Basketball leaguexthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

Title IX xmadx xnonono2x xbangx xflamemadx xoopsx xnonono2x xmadx xflamemadx xbangx

I'm fine with title IX for things where you can actually do something about it.


What I mean is if you have a men's soccer team, you can just as easily have a women's soccer team. They can share facilities.

If you have a men's basketball team, you can have a women's basketball team.


Same for almost every other sport.



If you have a men's football team, you can't have a women's football team.


There is no such thing as a missing opportunity for women to play football in college.




Therefore, football should be exempt from title IX.

[DFW HOYA]

Therefore, football should be exempt from title IX.

This was discussed ad nauseum last year and it's not going to change.

Bottom line, if your school wants football, it can do it, if there is the will to do so. Give UNO students the credit for getting so many out there for a debut game when the school struggles to get anyone to other sporting events.

[TexasTerror]

UNO is out of the picture for now. First thing for them (and Tulane) before any of them go crazy with anything is getting all their sports in place. The NCAA waiver from Katrina will only last so long.

UNO is at nine sports. Need 14 for NCAA reasons and 15 for SBC requirements. Crosstown, Tulane is still a few sports short (they got a W Swim/Dive team starting next year and M Tennis next year as well) and is adding BOWLING of all sports!

[Model Citizen]

...adding BOWLING of all sports!

No surprise.

http://www.rockandbowl.com/HistoryPAGE/history.html

xbeerchugx

[dbackjon]

So why not add non-schollie football as one the sports? It would qualify.

[TexasTerror]

So why not add non-schollie football as one the sports? It would qualify.

No it would not. NCAA, yes. But, more importantly -- the school needs 15 conference sports. Non scholarship football is not one of them. The school would get the boot out of the conference if it does not meet the mandate by the league in time. Same goes for Denver, who have a lot of sports outside of the conference itself.

[dbackjon]

No it would not. NCAA, yes. But, more importantly -- the school needs 15 conference sports. Non scholarship football is not one of them. The school would get the boot out of the conference if it does not meet the mandate by the league in time. Same goes for Denver, who have a lot of sports outside of the conference itself.


It will be interesting to see if the Sun Belt follows through. I know they really want Denver out, but UNO is where the office is.

[TexasTerror]

It will be interesting to see if the Sun Belt follows through. I know they really want Denver out, but UNO is where the office is.

Around the same time is when the next wave of conference expansion and realignment should be taking place. That's one of several things to circle and see what happens in a few years...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would think that UNO would be seen as a highly desirable target for the Atlantic Sun in all sports?

[TexasTerror]

I would think that UNO would be seen as a highly desirable target for the Atlantic Sun in all sports?

And why would they want to "drop down" to the A-Sun. Their big sport is baseball outside of basketball and they have been able to get an at-large in the sport. Would they be able to do that in the A-Sun? A move to that conference would take them away from rivals like La-Lafayette. Do not see it.

With or without football, I do not believe they will be dropped from their current conference. I see the SBC as 10 football, 12 total league. A conference title game makes little sense at this point for the league, even if they were going to get to 12.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And why would they want to "drop down" to the A-Sun....

As previously mentioned, they have had $$$ issues and may not meet the requirements to be in the Sun Belt. They may not have a choice. And being in the A-Sun is better than going independent in any sport.

Could the SBC be a hindrance to UNO in the sense that if they wanted to have non-scholarship football, they would prevent it, i.e. is there a requirement that if their members play football, it has to be FBS and full-scholarship? I thought some new rules were put in place when WKU joined.

If so, moving from the SBC might actually help their cause. Granted, they would take a (small) hit in basketball.

[TexasTerror]

As previously mentioned, they have had $$$ issues and may not meet the requirements to be in the Sun Belt. They may not have a choice. And being in the A-Sun is better than going independent in any sport.

Says who?

They are bouncing back from Katrina and will meet the requirements by the Sun Belt by the time they have to. The university took a hit and is moving quickly in getting back on track.

In fact, if they added the track and field components, they'd meet both the NCAA and Sun Belt requirements with just that. They do have the stadium nearby that was used for the 1992 or was it 1996 Olympic Trials?

Big weekend in the city of New Orleans the next few days as the Lakefront Arena opens for hoops. It's a huge deal for the university and the city as a sign of recovery.


Could the SBC be a hindrance to UNO in the sense that if they wanted to have non-scholarship football, they would prevent it, i.e. is there a requirement that if their members play football, it has to be FBS and full-scholarship? I thought some new rules were put in place when WKU joined.

New members have to be football members. UALR, UNO and DU all have no football. I think the issue could eventually be forced if the school had non-scholarship football, but I think the league would let them take their time, especially since the league really is not in a position to have a championship game just yet.


If so, moving from the SBC might actually help their cause. Granted, they would take a (small) hit in basketball.

And baseball. They are the only school in Louisiana to go to the NCAAs back to back years, something LSU and Tulane can't even match.

[DFW HOYA]

Could the SBC be a hindrance to UNO in the sense that if they wanted to have non-scholarship football, they would prevent it, i.e. is there a requirement that if their members play football, it has to be FBS and full-scholarship? I thought some new rules were put in place when WKU joined.


There is another underreported issue when it comes to teams dropping football.

When a conference does not sponsor football and increases conference requirements in other sports, this can often be the subtle tap on the shoulder to college presidents not to invest in football. I can imagine a scenario when the MAAC wants its schools to invest in certain non-revenue sports and football is then positioned as a hindrance to meeting certain standards in these sports.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is another underreported issue when it comes to teams dropping football.

When a conference does not sponsor football and increases conference requirements in other sports, this can often be the subtle tap on the shoulder to college presidents not to invest in football. I can imagine a scenario when the MAAC wants its schools to invest in certain non-revenue sports and football is then positioned as a hindrance to meeting certain standards in these sports.

Interesting. The demise of the MAAC in football certainly seemed like a concentrated effort by the league to disband the sport. But I've found the general trend being for conferences to sponsor as many sports as humanly possible - building conference loyalty and rivalries in more than just one sport. I personally think the MAAC's decision is a slide that will not be reversed - I think their basketball teams will also continue to slide into obscurity, too. This is one reason I've been looking at the MAAC for potential expansion targets with the PL (in basketball) - the PL has a good brand and a basketball profile that is quickly eclipsing the MAAC.

For UNO, though, they're in the opposite situation. Could the "tap on the shoulder" above for UNO be the fact that the SBC is not accepting members that don't play football, too? I mean, it's clear that the SBC is focused on football. UNO does not fit that profile at this point.

[MplsBison]

This was discussed ad nauseum last year and it's not going to change.

Bottom line, if your school wants football, it can do it, if there is the will to do so. Give UNO students the credit for getting so many out there for a debut game when the school struggles to get anyone to other sporting events.


I don't care if it's not going to change, it SHOULD change for exactly the reason I stated above.

Why penalize a school for giving men the opportunity to play college football if there is no such thing as a missing opportunity for women to play college football?

[DFW HOYA]

Why penalize a school for giving men the opportunity to play college football if there is no such thing as a missing opportunity for women to play college football?

Life isn't fair. Neither is Title IX.

It's bad law, but it has lots of friends in Congress and that's not changing anytime soon. (Kind of like Amtrak.)

[Fox 94]

Interesting. The demise of the MAAC in football certainly seemed like a concentrated effort by the league to disband the sport. But I've found the general trend being for conferences to sponsor as many sports as humanly possible - building conference loyalty and rivalries in more than just one sport. I personally think the MAAC's decision is a slide that will not be reversed - I think their basketball teams will also continue to slide into obscurity, too. This is one reason I've been looking at the MAAC for potential expansion targets with the PL (in basketball) - the PL has a good brand and a basketball profile that is quickly eclipsing the MAAC.

For UNO, though, they're in the opposite situation. Could the "tap on the shoulder" above for UNO be the fact that the SBC is not accepting members that don't play football, too? I mean, it's clear that the SBC is focused on football. UNO does not fit that profile at this point.

Please check out the latest conference rpi's before spouting xnonox.

[slycat]

No surprise.

http://www.rockandbowl.com/HistoryPAGE/history.html

xbeerchugx

I know a girl getting a full ride on a bowling scholarship. Must be nice.

[slycat]

How about if cheerleading counts as a sport to offset football?:D

[spdram]

With the time and effort the cheerleaders put in you would think it woud count as a sport. But only competetive cheering does and they are not allowed to cheer at events. Foolish! Why smply say you must be in x event each semester for it to count as a sport.

[ngineer]

I would think U of Detroit is would be one of the prime targets for expansion of the PFL. Reasonably near a number of current schools. Historical football tradition and new facilities--plus having a large metro area to draw interest from.

[ngineer]

I know a girl getting a full ride on a bowling scholarship. Must be nice.

Great! a sports for those with their minds in a gutter..;):D

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Please check out the latest conference rpi's before spouting xnonox.

Siena has been doing extremely well this year, as has Fairfield, while it's been generally a down year for the Patriot League. But point taken.


I would think U of Detroit is would be one of the prime targets for expansion of the PFL. Reasonably near a number of current schools. Historical football tradition and new facilities--plus having a large metro area to draw interest from.

There has reportedly been interest there - on both sides.