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Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 09:40 PM
Now that I have everyone's attention, someone has some 'splainin to do.

Reading the Pioneer board, I noticed a post that USD has 40 kids on "Presidential Academic Scholarships." Now, a poster stated that half of the student body was on said scholarships.

That being stated...that is a bunch of ****e! In the PL, Merit based scholarships aren't allowed (if I remember correctly). As a matter of fact, if I really remember correctly, ACADEMIC rides are counted against scholarship limits of the 63 (or 30 in the NEC).

So...is San Diego really a non-scholarship.

From my understanding...THEY ARE NOT.

I am not flaming...but I was shocked when reading this and I think many of us would like to understand this better!

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 09:42 PM
BTW, here is the excerpt:

"How can USD have 42 red shirt freshman, the majority of the team on 'Presidential Academic Scholarships', a high percentage of the starters 5th year seniors and still call itself a non-scholly program. The PFL and NCAA need to seriously study and redefine what constitutes a non-scholarship program."

BlueHen86
November 5th, 2007, 09:45 PM
Why didn't they tell us they give scholarships. They would have made the playoffs last year.xrolleyesx

DFW HOYA
November 5th, 2007, 09:46 PM
The PFL does not allow athletics-based financial aid. Apparently, merit aid falls outside the definition.

This is not unique to the PFL, either. Five of the seven Patriot schools have some sort of merit aid available, though not to that degree. (Colgate and Georgetown do not offer merit-based aid.)

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 10:00 PM
Come again? I thought MERIT AID could not be used for athletes at PL schools. Are you saying it is school specific?

And I am pretty positive merit aid must be reported as athletic aid. I thought the PL was a "need-based" system. You had to apply for aid.

Either way...this doesn't smell kosher. It is right up there with the IVY League not giving aid.

Do you realize that if Merit Aid were allowed...there would be a full roster of scholarship athletes at every FCS school. By definition, merit-based aid in the PL in sports (not including football) is ATHLETIC MERIT based...not academic.

So again, someone needs to explain this to me.

blukeys
November 5th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Come again? I thought MERIT AID could not be used for athletes at PL schools. I thought Gate13 stated that.

And I am pretty positive merit aid must be reported as athletic aid.

Either way...this doesn't smell kosher. It is right up there with the IVY League not giving aid.

Do you realize that if Merit Aid were allowed...there would be a full roster of scholarship athletes at every FCS school. By definition, merit-based aid in the PL in sports (not including football) is ATHLETIC MERIT based...not academic.

So again, someone needs to explain this to me.

Any kind of Merit Aid can be used but it will count against the 63 scollie limit. Even an athlete attending a school on a National Merit Scholarship Award must be counted against the 63 limit. Maybe USD has been playing loose and fast with how they are portrayed but the Merit Aid is perfectly legal although there can be no more than 63 of these awarded as this is the FCS limit.

Are you surprised that a non scollie school might play games with financial aid? I have seen how "Needs based grants" and scollies work. The latter is a much more honest approach.

USDFAN_55
November 5th, 2007, 10:23 PM
So you guys are saying that if a kid comes in with a 4.2 GPA and a 1400 on his SAT's that he can't accept an academic scholarship if he wants to play football? That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. The kids with merit scholarships have earned them in the classroom, not the football field. That would be punishing a kid for being a good student as well a good athlete.

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Thank you blukeys...that was my point. USD is doing what the Top DIII schools do. When i was at Albany we lost kids to Ithaca and Union all the time for "merit aid" scholarships. While it was "within" the rules, most argued that those schools were getting athletes due to the $$ they were handing out. For example, leadership scholarships are often doled out.

So, if the PFL is truly a non-scholarship conference, this is definitely playing fast and loose within the bounds. Additionally, I would LOVE to see the incoming scores of the USD football players on "merit-based" rides! If that poster from Davidson is correct, you have got to be kidding me that half of the roster has THE GRADES and SCORES to be eligible for ACADEMIC RIDES.

It also begs for a look into the 42 red-shirt freshman. That is a lot of coin being spent by the kids.

This stuff happens all the time...but all those years of saying they were a non-scholarship team-- Well, there is smoke saying they were "funded".

And don't get me wrong USDFAN_55...I think all academic success should be rewarded. However having half the team on these "scholarships" is fishy. If not...man, you guys have a large majority of the best student athletes in the land.

appfan2008
November 5th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Thank you blukeys...that was my point. USD is doing what the Top DIII schools do. When i was at Albany we lost kids to Ithaca and Union all the time for "merit aid" scholarships. While it was "within" the rules, most argued that those schools were getting athletes due to the $$ they were handing out. For example, leadership scholarships are often doled out.

So, if the PFL is truly a non-scholarship conference, this is definitely playing fast and loose within the bounds. Additionally, I would LOVE to see the incoming scores of the USD football players on "merit-based" rides! If that poster from Davidson is correct, you have got to be kidding me that half of the roster has THE GRADES and SCORES to be eligible for ACADEMIC RIDES.

It also begs for a look into the 42 red-shirt freshman. That is a lot of coin being spent by the kids.

This stuff happens all the time...but all those years of saying they were a non-scholarship team-- Well, there is smoke saying they were "funded".

And don't get me wrong USDFAN_55...I think all academic success should be rewarded. However having half the team on these "scholarships" is fishy. If not...man, you guys have a large majority of the best student athletes in the land.

or its just a team of really really smart people!

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 10:51 PM
Merit aid is awarded for academic, not athletic merit. It is essentially a discount for the most desirable students. Private schools have it to compete with more selective schools for top students. State governments establish merit aid programs, like the University Scholars Program at UAlbany, to prevent brain drain.

The most selective schools don't bother with merit aid. Separating freshmen into "merit scholars" and "others" would be an arbitrary distinction. Also, the top schools offer enough institutional aid so that no one is turned away because of income.

blukeys
November 5th, 2007, 10:57 PM
So you guys are saying that if a kid comes in with a 4.2 GPA and a 1400 on his SAT's that he can't accept an academic scholarship if he wants to play football? That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. The kids with merit scholarships have earned them in the classroom, not the football field. That would be punishing a kid for being a good student as well a good athlete.

Please learn to read!!!!!! Any athlete can accept an academic scholarship for any reason. However, his acceptance of said academic scholarship and subsequent participation in any sport will count against the limit for that particularl sport.

Check out the rules. Your example counts against the 63 scollie limit just the same as the dumbkopf who has a 900 combined SAT at Podunk U. The question raised in this thread is USD skirting the spirit of the PFL rules by providing assistance to athletes that other schools in the PFL do not offer.

A better question should be. Can we take a look at the Josh Johnson financials???????

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 10:58 PM
or its just a team of really really smart people!

Exactly. I'm sure the Flyer from Dayton can tell you how many Academic All-Americans the PFL has produced. For the last several years, it's a higher number than any other I-AA conference. Forgive Mr. Flyer if he gloats, but Dayton has had the most Academic All-Americans (past 2-3 yrs) of any school in this misnamed subdivision.

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 11:06 PM
DETROIT Flyer. Sorry.

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 11:07 PM
Model Citizen, here are the requirements of a USD Presidential Scholarship:

Presidential Scholars
Presidential Scholars are designated in the name of the President of the University of San Diego. These four-year awards must be applied to University expenses. Renewal is contingent upon maintenance of the GPA specified on the information received with initial notification of the award from the Office of Undergraduate Admissions.

I would love to know what the "GPA Specified" is. I would also like to know what the entry requirements are for this scholarship.

Bottom line, as our Delaware fan points out, it seems like they are going against the spirit of the PFL rules.

And yes, Dayton has some real smart kids...I remember the posts about the merit scholars, but I also bet 1/2 the team isn't on a Presidential Scholarship...rather they are real smart kids who want a good education and are paying for it in some way. IN fact, Dayton has had an Academic All-American for 22 straight years...and produced 13 last season. To be eligible, you must carry a 3.2 GPA and must be a starter or important reserve. Far cry from USD's claimed 1/2 team on academic rides.

If a student at Albany accepts a Presidential Scholarship or the NY GIANTS/Times Union Scholarship, that goes against our 30 limit (and the 63 for the FCS) of the NEC. If USD were in the Great West...and gave academic scholarships to 1/2 the team, they could not go over the 63 limit. In the PFL there is supposed to be football players not getting aid. Yeah, there may be a good amount of "academic over-achievers" will get a ride...but 1/2 the team?

Come now...we aren't stupid here!

The whole point is moot if the Davidson fan was off on how many kids are red-shirting and how many kids receive "academic" or "other" scholarship assistance. IT WAS A PFL FAN WHO BROUGHT THIS TO LIGHT!

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Hardly against the spirit of the league rules. Scan some of the player bios for other PFL teams. Presidential scholarships are everywhere in the PFL.

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 11:22 PM
A better question should be. Can we take a look at the Josh Johnson financials???????

USD's football team is a non-scholarship program. Tuition, room and board cost $42,772 this year. Rosemary Whisenton, Johnson's mother, said the family receives federal grants, other financial aid and has taken out loans.

ď(We'll) be paying loans back,Ē Whisenton says. ďWhatever it takes.Ē

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061103/news_lz1s3playmake.html

Josh isn't on a football scholarship. He may be the poor man's Dennis Dixon today, but coming out of high school he was a skinny kid with a bad ankle. If St. Mary's hadn't dropped football, he'd be up there, because they offered a partial scholarship and the chance for him to play near home.

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 11:25 PM
Honestly, I was not questioning Josh...not at all. That was bluekeys. I was questioning a Davidson fan bitching about USD.

Yes, Presidential rides are given in the PFL...they are given everywhere. That being said...is the Davidson fan correct that 1/2 the team is getting rides.

If that is the case, and the PFL as a whole acts like this, the PFL is FAR from a non-scholarship conference. It may be non-scholarship in name...but the teams are CLEARLY funded if you are arguing the point that it is a wide-spread practice within the PFL. You are similar to the IVY's who find ways to get their kids $$$!

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 11:31 PM
Very similar to the Ivies, especially Davidson! Yes, the object is to find the money so these kids can attend college. The question is whether football players get money others can't. I'm comfortable with the answer.

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Ok...so...you pretty much admit that the league is not a Non-Scholarship league. Because there isn't a soul on this board that would think the IVIE's are true non-scholarship.

Other than that...I don't have a problem with it either!

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 11:39 PM
Perhaps the problem is in defining "non-scholarship." Notice the NCAA doesn't use that term in its bylaws. It is sportswriter/fan lingo left over from the 1950s.

Athletic aid=money reserved for athletes=equivalencies. That's what we're really talking about.

The Ivy doesn't offer athletic aid (insert sarcastic comeback here), the MAAC and PFL don't either. I cite the NCAA as a source. Best I can do.

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 11:41 PM
And if you think the IVIES don't give "athletic aid" in spirit...you have never been recruited by an IVY.

There is need-based aid: THE PL, The IVIES, The MAAC, the PFL, and the Former NEC- Money is not given based on anything other than financial need. Some leagues cap it (NEC).

There is athletic merit based aid- otherwise known as scholarships.

There is other "merit" based aid- otherwise known as academic rides, leadership rides, music rides, etc.

The latter, merit based aid (whether academic or NOT), would ALWAYS COUNT AGAINST ATHLETIC MERIT BASED AID LIMITS. It does not matter that none, half, or all the "non-athlete" students receive this same aid. In the end...it still counts, within the athletic scholarship limit world, as a HEAD COUNT SCHOLARSHIP!

I don't care if the entire student body at USD gets full-rides. The fact is, if USD was in the Great West or Big Sky, these Presidential Scholarships would be counted against the limit. ONLY NEED-BASED AID...would not (and even that, if premised under let's say need and merit...is sometimes bending the rules).

USDFAN_55
November 5th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Model Citizen, here are the requirements of a USD Presidential Scholarship:

Presidential Scholars
Presidential Scholars are designated in the name of the President of the University of San Diego. These four-year awards must be applied to University expenses. Renewal is contingent upon maintenance of the GPA specified on the information received with initial notification of the award from the Office of Undergraduate Admissions.

I would love to know what the "GPA Specified" is. I would also like to know what the entry requirements are for this scholarship.



GPA requirements vary on the amount you receive. For the largest merit award you need to maintain a 3.5 GPA while the smaller merit award mandates a 3.0.

I don't see how everyone is surprised that USD gives these merit awards. I'm not sure on the exact number who receive them, but I can guarantee that it is not 1/2 the team. There is no way to find out because a students finacial aid is not public information.

USDFAN_55
November 5th, 2007, 11:43 PM
Please learn to read!!!!!! Any athlete can accept an academic scholarship for any reason. However, his acceptance of said academic scholarship and subsequent participation in any sport will count against the limit for that particularl sport.

Check out the rules. Your example counts against the 63 scollie limit just the same as the dumbkopf who has a 900 combined SAT at Podunk U. The question raised in this thread is USD skirting the spirit of the PFL rules by providing assistance to athletes that other schools in the PFL do not offer.

A better question should be. Can we take a look at the Josh Johnson financials???????

Well maybe you can enlighten me and point me to the bylaw that says an academic scholarship counts towards the max 63 scholarships allowed in the FCS.

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 11:49 PM
GPA requirements vary on the amount you receive. For the largest merit award you need to maintain a 3.5 GPA while the smaller merit award mandates a 3.0.

I don't see how everyone is surprised that USD gives these merit awards. I'm not sure on the exact number who receive them, but I can guarantee that it is not 1/2 the team. There is no way to find out because a students finacial aid is not public information.

Thank you very much for a real answer. Do you happen to know the entry requirements for receipt of the award. E.g., when I received the Maryland Presidential Scholarship, I gained it because of GPA, SAT, and Leadership combined.

One last thing...and it is not a dig...but a serious question. How do these 42 red-shirt freshman (again, going on the Davidson fan's word here) afford paying for 5 years of college. Are they really taking 1 or 2 credits the last semesters so it is not expensive?

Dane96
November 5th, 2007, 11:49 PM
Well maybe you can enlighten me and point me to the bylaw that says an academic scholarship counts towards the max 63 scholarships allowed in the FCS.

Not sure of the bylaw...but he is absolutely correct. If not, again, teams would circumvent the 63 scholarship limit left and right! I know every year, we report the winner of the Times Union/NY GIANT scholarship award.

USDFAN_55
November 5th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Thank you very much for a real answer. Do you happen to know the entry requirements for receipt of the award. E.g., when I received the Maryland Presidential Scholarship, I gained it because of GPA, SAT, and Leadership combined.

One last thing...and it is not a dig...but a serious question. How do these 42 red-shirt freshman (again, going on the Davidson fan's word here) afford paying for 5 years of college. Are they really taking 1 or 2 credits the last semesters so it is not expensive?

I am not sure what the exact criteria is, but I know what I had and what a few of my friends had. It seems as though it was based on GPA, SAT/ACT, and leadership/activities like you mentioned. Where the cutt-off for GPA and test scores is I have no clue.

Model Citizen
November 5th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Not sure of the bylaw...but he is absolutely correct.

Not good enough for someone throwing stones so casually. Here is the link to the bylaws. Please look it up and provide a citation.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2006-07/2006-07_d1_manual.pdf

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:01 AM
One last thing...and it is not a dig...but a serious question. How do these 42 red-shirt freshman (again, going on the Davidson fan's word here) afford paying for 5 years of college. Are they really taking 1 or 2 credits the last semesters so it is not expensive?

I think the Davidson fan is blowing smoke out his arse. I know how I paid for 5 years of college (a combination of merit awards, need based goverment grants, and loans). I didn't really talk to my teammates about how they were paying for school. Fact is that there are quite a few kids from well off families that can afford going to school with out help (as crazy as that sounds it's true; you should see the cars on USD's campus. It is not a rare site to see mercedes, porches, Range Rovers, Escalades, even a viper and a Ferrari!!!!xeekx)

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:01 AM
Not good enough for someone throwing stones so casually. Here is the link to the bylaws. Please look it up and provide a citation.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2006-07/2006-07_d1_manual.pdf

USDFAN_55...here is your answer:

"Scholarship Blending and equivalency was basically designed to limit colleges from giving institutional aid to recruited athletes that probably didn't deserve aid, correct?

Yes, unless an athlete receiving any athletic scholarship money meets 1 of 4 academic criteria that the NCAA has established, then any additional institutional aid awarded to a recruited athlete by the school counts towards the teams total allotted athletic scholarship money that the NCAA has established as a limit. Like your question states, this was designed by the NCAA to make sure schools didn't give additional money to athletes after they ran out of scholarship money for the team, and it forces coaches to recruit more carefully and make sure they have allocated their money in the most useful manner."

The four criteria are:

** The academic criteria are
(1) 3.5 GPA
(2) SAT of 1200+
(3) ACT of 105+
(4) Top 10% of high school class

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:02 AM
I think the Davidson fan is blowing smoke out his arse. I know how I paid for 5 years of college (a combination of merit awards, need based goverment grants, and loans). I didn't really talk to my teammates about how they were paying for school. Fact is that there are quite a few kids from well off families that can afford going to school with out help (as crazy as that sounds it's true; you should see the cars on USD's campus. It is not a rare site to see mercedes, porches, Range Rovers, Escalades, even a viper and a Ferrari!!!!xeekx)

Please say you dated a girl with one of those!xthumbsupx

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM
Not sure of the bylaw...but he is absolutely correct. If not, again, teams would circumvent the 63 scholarship limit left and right! I know every year, we report the winner of the Times Union/NY GIANT scholarship award.

So if a kid receives a governement need based grant does it count as a "scholarship" towards the max 63?

Giving merit awards seems like it could be easily controlled by the NCAA by simply requesting who is receiving these awards and verifying they are meeting the requirements that the rest of the student population has to maintain.

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Please say you dated a girl with one of those!xthumbsupx

No way.... USD is called the University of Spoiled Daughters for a reason. I couldn't afford those high maintenance girlsxsmhx

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:07 AM
So if a kid receives a governement need based grant does it count as a "scholarship" towards the max 63?

Giving merit awards seems like it could be easily controlled by the NCAA by simply requesting who is receiving these awards and verifying they are meeting the requirements that the rest of the student population has to maintain.

That is an interesting question. And has always been a fuzzy one to me. Not sure if strict need-based aid counts because of the mix in of federal aid. In the true non-scholly leagues...I would think no.

Someone else has to answer that one.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:07 AM
No way.... USD is called the University of Spoiled Daughters for a reason. I couldn't afford those high maintenance girlsxsmhx

Arghhh...I wanted to hear a good story.

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:10 AM
USDFAN_55...here is your answer:

"Scholarship Blending and equivalency was basically designed to limit colleges from giving institutional aid to recruited athletes that probably didn't deserve aid, correct?

Yes, unless an athlete receiving any athletic scholarship money meets 1 of 4 academic criteria that the NCAA has established, then any additional institutional aid awarded to a recruited athlete by the school counts towards the teams total allotted athletic scholarship money that the NCAA has established as a limit. Like your question states, this was designed by the NCAA to make sure schools didn't give additional money to athletes after they ran out of scholarship money for the team, and it forces coaches to recruit more carefully and make sure they have allocated their money in the most useful manner."

The four criteria are:

** The academic criteria are
(1) 3.5 GPA
(2) SAT of 1200+
(3) ACT of 105+
(4) Top 10% of high school class

That makes sense to me. I'm sure the majority of USD's recruits meet that criteria. (4 out of 4 for mexnodx ). In fact I didn't hang with anyone on my team that didn't meet that criteria, but then again I did hang out with the smartest group on the team (Offensive Linemen:D ). That does seem like something easy for the NCAA to verify and enforce.

joecooll6
November 6th, 2007, 12:13 AM
Man youre all about those non schollies and limited schollies arent you Dane?

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:17 AM
Arghhh...I wanted to hear a good story.

Well there's plenty of stories from all the trips to the bars at the beachxnodx The joy of being in San Diego is having a large univeristy (San Diego State) with a ton of hot easy women:D Man I love San Diego!!!!!

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:20 AM
Man youre all about those non schollies and limited schollies arent you Dane?

Sure am. Kinda like posters here talk about underfunding vs. full-funding.

Hey...I have no problem with aid being given at USD or any other school. Just call it what it is. The Ivies have pulled this for years!!!

Model Citizen
November 6th, 2007, 12:23 AM
Dane96, I'm still waiting for that citation.

Whatever you were quoting in msg #29, it wasn't from the NCAA bylaws. At any rate, "blending" of equivalencies and merit aid is not what the PFL is doing. No equivalencies here.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:26 AM
Wait...Academic MERIT aid is not Merit aid.

Wow...hope you are not a USD grad.

Bed-time for me, but I got that from two websites...and three University (FCS) sites.

Model Citizen
November 6th, 2007, 12:31 AM
I hope you're not a lawyer. Nighty-night.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:35 AM
Why I am, which is why I don't discuss w/o facts. You are so easily baited my friend.

You think I would post that from some random site?

Here is your answer...now go grab your milk, cookies, and night light. And insert foot in mouth:

"Bylaws 15.5.3.2.1.1 (academic honor awards) and 15.5.3.2.1.1.1 (additional requirements). June 20, 2007. The NCAA Division I Management Council Administrative Review Subcommittee approved a blanket waiver for the 2007-08 academic year to permit institutions to use cumulative high school grade-point average, as opposed to core-course grade-point average, when exempting from an institution's equivalency computation an academic honor award pursuant to Bylaw 15.5.3.2.1.1 (i.e., a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.500 based on a maximum of 4.000). This waiver will be applicable to all prospective student-athletes who qualify for an academic honor award for the 2007-08 academic year (not just those who are deemed qualifiers after six semesters). In issuing this waiver, the subcommittee noted that under the newly established early certification initial-eligibility program, prospective student-athletes who are certified early will not have a final core-course grade-point average calculated by the NCAA Eligibility Center. Therefore, prospective student-athletes who receive an early certification waiver based on a six-semester transcript will otherwise not be able to qualify for an academic honor award using the grade-point average prong of the legislation since it requires a core-course grade-point average (calculated based on an eight-semester transcript). The subcommittee noted further that permitting institutions to use cumulative grade-point average this year, as opposed to core-course grade-point average, is not likely to have a significant impact in the number of prospective student-athletes who will qualify for an academic honor award, and is the least bureaucratic way to resolve the issue. The subcommittee noted that this time frame is sufficient to address the situation because during its June 2007 meeting, the NCAA Division I Academics Eligibility and Compliance Cabinet agreed to sponsor legislation that will resolve this issue beyond the 2007-08 academic year."

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:41 AM
For some reason the original rule didn't post. The above is the 2007-2008 addendum.

Here is the original rule, effective 1999:

"15.5.3.2.1 Exceptions

15.5.3.2.1.1 Academic Honor Awards. Academic honor awards that are part of an institutionís normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipientís high school record and awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institutionís equivalency computation, provided the recipient was ranked in the upper 10 percent of the high school graduating class or achieved a core-course grade-point average of at least 3.500 (based on a maximum of 4.000) or a minimum ACT sum score of 105 or a minimum SAT score of 1200.
(Adopted: 1/12/99 effective 8/1/99)

15.5.3.2.1.1.1 Additional Requirements. The following additional requirements shall be met: (Adopted: 1/12/99 effective 8/1/99)

(a) The awards may include additional, nonacademic criteria (e.g., interviews, essays, need analysis), provided the additional criteria are not based on athletics ability, participation or interests, and the awards are consistent with the pattern of all such awards provided to all students;

(b) No quota of awards shall be designated for student-athletes;

(c) Athletics participation shall not be required prior to or subsequent to collegiate enrollment;

(d) No athletics department staff member shall be involved in designating the recipients of such awards;

(e) Any additional criteria shall not include athletics ability, participation or interests; and

(f) There must be on file in the office of the director of athletics certification by the financial aid director or the chair of the financial aid committee that such awards are part of the institutionís normal arrangements for academic scholarships, awarded independently of athletics ability, participation and interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution."

Model Citizen
November 6th, 2007, 12:43 AM
15.5.3.2.1.1 discusses exemptions to equivalency requirements for counters.

Your homework assignment, Mr. Hart, is to figure out the NCAA definition of a counter.

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:46 AM
xnodx
Why I am, which is why I don't discuss w/o facts. You are so easily baited my friend.

You think I would post that from some random site?

Here is your answer...now go grab your milk, cookies, and night light. And insert foot in mouth:

"Bylaws 15.5.3.2.1.1 (academic honor awards) and 15.5.3.2.1.1.1 (additional requirements). June 20, 2007. The NCAA Division I Management Council Administrative Review Subcommittee approved a blanket waiver for the 2007-08 academic year to permit institutions to use cumulative high school grade-point average, as opposed to core-course grade-point average, when exempting from an institution's equivalency computation an academic honor award pursuant to Bylaw 15.5.3.2.1.1 (i.e., a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.500 based on a maximum of 4.000). This waiver will be applicable to all prospective student-athletes who qualify for an academic honor award for the 2007-08 academic year (not just those who are deemed qualifiers after six semesters). In issuing this waiver, the subcommittee noted that under the newly established early certification initial-eligibility program, prospective student-athletes who are certified early will not have a final core-course grade-point average calculated by the NCAA Eligibility Center. Therefore, prospective student-athletes who receive an early certification waiver based on a six-semester transcript will otherwise not be able to qualify for an academic honor award using the grade-point average prong of the legislation since it requires a core-course grade-point average (calculated based on an eight-semester transcript). The subcommittee noted further that permitting institutions to use cumulative grade-point average this year, as opposed to core-course grade-point average, is not likely to have a significant impact in the number of prospective student-athletes who will qualify for an academic honor award, and is the least bureaucratic way to resolve the issue. The subcommittee noted that this time frame is sufficient to address the situation because during its June 2007 meeting, the NCAA Division I Academics Eligibility and Compliance Cabinet agreed to sponsor legislation that will resolve this issue beyond the 2007-08 academic year."


For some reason the original rule didn't post. The above is the 2007-2008 addendum.

Here is the original rule, effective 1999:

"15.5.3.2.1 Exceptions

15.5.3.2.1.1 Academic Honor Awards. Academic honor awards that are part of an institutionís normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipientís high school record and awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institutionís equivalency computation, provided the recipient was ranked in the upper 10 percent of the high school graduating class or achieved a core-course grade-point average of at least 3.500 (based on a maximum of 4.000) or a minimum ACT sum score of 105 or a minimum SAT score of 1200.
(Adopted: 1/12/99 effective 8/1/99)

15.5.3.2.1.1.1 Additional Requirements. The following additional requirements shall be met: (Adopted: 1/12/99 effective 8/1/99)

(a) The awards may include additional, nonacademic criteria (e.g., interviews, essays, need analysis), provided the additional criteria are not based on athletics ability, participation or interests, and the awards are consistent with the pattern of all such awards provided to all students;

(b) No quota of awards shall be designated for student-athletes;

(c) Athletics participation shall not be required prior to or subsequent to collegiate enrollment;

(d) No athletics department staff member shall be involved in designating the recipients of such awards;

(e) Any additional criteria shall not include athletics ability, participation or interests; and

(f) There must be on file in the office of the director of athletics certification by the financial aid director or the chair of the financial aid committee that such awards are part of the institutionís normal arrangements for academic scholarships, awarded independently of athletics ability, participation and interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution."

Looks good to me. So even if USD had 83 merit award players on their team it wouldn't matter because they don't count towards the 63 scholarship limit. And all of this is verified by the NCAA Clearinghouse. What seems to be the issue even if USD did have half it's team on a merit scholarship? It is all within the bounds of the NCAA bylaws.

Interesting topic thoughxnodx

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:47 AM
Are you for real guy?

It has been argued Ad Nauseum whether FCS fits into the counter mold. Some say it does not....the NCAA is looking to re-define it. Technically speaking, the FCS cannot give more than 85 rides...that is the total number of rides FBS can give. The loophole is that you can give 63 rides to 85 kids.

The definition is pretty damn murky and FCS is defined as an "intial counter" sport...hence the exemption applies. Counter sports are: Both football sub-divisions, basketball, and hockey.

Equivalency sports are the Olympic Sports and the FCS.

That being said, if you dont want to consider FCS a counter sport...then the exemption DOES not apply...and where the safe haven for academic awards would be...I don't know.

Model Citizen
November 6th, 2007, 12:53 AM
So even if USD had 83 merit award players on their team it wouldn't matter because they don't count towards the 63 scholarship limit. And all of this is verified by the NCAA Clearinghouse.

Too slow and too wrong with your answer, Mr. Hart. USDFAN has correctly stated that nonscholarship players are not counters. Those who receive athletics aid are counters.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 01:01 AM
Sure did answer the question correctly:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by USDFAN_55 View Post
Well maybe you can enlighten me and point me to the bylaw that says an academic scholarship counts towards the max 63 scholarships allowed in the FCS.
Not sure of the bylaw...but he is absolutely correct. If not, again, teams would circumvent the 63 scholarship limit left and right! I know every year, we report the winner of the Times Union/NY GIANT scholarship award."

He asked about the 63 limit...not non-scholarship.

Are you dense? THE SPORTS THEMSELVES ARE WHAT THEY ARE! So, if you are a football playing team...you fall within the counter definition. In the FCS case you fall within first the Counter...then the Equivalency definition. IF you fall within the counter definition...exemptions apply.

If USD were in the Great West....they would not be able to circumvent the rules. By NOT being in the Great West...they can give out as many academic rides as they want. If you offer scholarships then the ABOVE rule applies. Since they are not offering straight athletic rides, USD is skirting the rules. KUDOS TO THEM!

That, my friend, was the ENTIRE POINT OF THE THREAD...and the DAVIDSON fans' gripe: USD is following the IVY method...and no matter how you stack it...football players are being recruited with money. I am fine with that...but don't call yourselves a non-funded team.

WOW....didnt realize I had to spell it out for you.

Sorry I am slow...I am multi-tasking, however I can keep on spanking you all night.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 01:16 AM
xnodx



Looks good to me. So even if USD had 83 merit award players on their team it wouldn't matter because they don't count towards the 63 scholarship limit. And all of this is verified by the NCAA Clearinghouse. What seems to be the issue even if USD did have half it's team on a merit scholarship? It is all within the bounds of the NCAA bylaws.

Interesting topic thoughxnodx

I think you a misreading the rule. The rule indicates that there shall be NO QUOTA SET FOR STUDENT ATHLETES. That has been interpreted to mean that if the school has 100 Presidential Scholarships...they cannot pre-set 20 of those for STUDENT-ATHLETE USE ONLY. There must be a competition/awarding of the scholarship that is fairly based across the student body.

So, if USD gave scholarships, 63 could be athletic...and then the sliding scale exemption could be used to go OVER and BEYOND that 63...as long as that number is not a pre-set number.

Model Citizen
November 6th, 2007, 01:23 AM
If you've forgotten what this about, check msg #23, where bluekeys claims academic scholarships count toward the 63 schollie limit. His question specifically related to USD, which coincidentally is the topic of this thread. Good night, already.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 01:24 AM
nm

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 01:28 AM
I think you a misreading the rule. The rule indicates that there shall be NO QUOTA SET FOR STUDENT ATHLETES. That has been interpreted to mean that if the school has 100 Presidential Scholarships...they cannot pre-set 20 of those for STUDENT-ATHLETE USE ONLY. There must be a competition/awarding of the scholarship that is fairly based across the student body.

So, if USD gave scholarships, 63 could be athletic...and then the sliding scale exemption could be used to go OVER and BEYOND that 63...as long as that number is not a pre-set number.

Cool, thanks.xthumbsupx All this information still shows that USD isn't doing anything that isn't permitted. If they are doing something wrong the NCAA would know. Nobody in here will know for sure unless they have an in somewhere.

Does knowing this information change anyone's perspective of USD? I hope this doesn't all of a sudden give them credibility. Nothing irks me more than the idea that scholarships warrant worthiness.

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 01:30 AM
Can't we all just get alongxrotatehx

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 01:32 AM
If you've forgotten what this about, check msg #23, where bluekeys claims academic scholarships count toward the 63 schollie limit. His question specifically related to USD, which coincidentally is the topic of this thread. Good night, already.

What the message is about? I started the thread...I know what is about. And ACADEMIC RIDES DO COUNT AGAINST THE LIMIT IF THEY DO NOT FALL WITHIN THE EXEMPTION. So...if the academic award does not go to a certain GPA, SAT, ACT, or Top 10% student...the "academic" scholarship would count against the limit.

Since USD does not offer rides...it is moot to argue whether or not the academic rides count against the limit; In theory USD does not have a limit so they can get crafty with the academic rides.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 01:34 AM
Cool, thanks.xthumbsupx All this information still shows that USD isn't doing anything that isn't permitted. If they are doing something wrong the NCAA would know. Nobody in here will know for sure unless they have an in somewhere.

Does knowing this information change anyone's perspective of USD? I hope this doesn't all of a sudden give them credibility. Nothing irks me more than the idea that scholarships warrant worthiness.

Nope doesnt change my view...just interesting to hear it come to light finally. The NUMBER to me was shocking (the alleged number). IF 1/2 the team is on rides...I would call "bull****" to the whole non-scholarship thing. It was bull**** in DIII and bull**** here.

I don't think USD is doing anything wrong. However, I wonder what the rest of the conference feels (or if they give comparative amounts of aid?!).

What I don't understand is this: If this kind of aid is given...why not just got the athletic scholarship route and join the Great West and call it a day?

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 01:38 AM
Nope doesnt change my view...just interesting to hear it come to light finally. The NUMBER to me was shocking (the alleged number). IF 1/2 the team is on rides...I would call "bull****" to the whole non-scholarship thing. It was bull**** in DIII and bull**** here.

I don't think USD is doing anything wrong. However, I wonder what the rest of the conference feels (or if they give comparative amounts of aid?!).

It's not like they are getting the best athletes with these academic awards. They are getting the best student-athletes. Usually there is a big difference. As long as the criteria is being met, I see nothing wrong with awarding a student for acaemic success (playing football should be irrelevent).

DetroitFlyer
November 6th, 2007, 07:33 AM
This thread is so funny that I can hardly keep myself from laughing my you know what off....

What the heck did you all think was going on in the PFL? Did you honestly think that we only recruit kids that are dying to pay $40K+ for the honor of playing football at our fine universities?xcoolx

The PFL teams may not offer any athletic aid for football players, period. Pretty simple if you ask me.... The PFL MAY offer aid that is available to any student, ( read non-athlete ), attending the university. So, PFL players may receive need based aid or academic aid, just like any other student at the school.

I have a child at Dayton that receives a Presidential Scholarship. My student had excellent high school grades and very good ACT scores. My student must maintain a 3.0 to keep the scholarship. Basically, the scholly covers about one out of the four years, so we still have to pay a small fortune for my student to attend Dayton. I have to believe that this story is repeated over and over again for students that play on the football team! I know from talking with his parents, that our star QB, Kevin Hoyng has a boat load of loans to pay back.... He and his family chose that route over full, athletic, scholarship offers to other schools, because Kevin wanted to play QB, ( other schools wanted him to play other positions, and he wanted playing time ). If you look at the Dayton roster, a huge number of players were in the National Honor Society in high school. Do you think that is by chance? I have to believe that we target kids that are great students and great football players. As great students, most probably qualify for some aid, ( 90% of all UD students do ).... We can recruit because we are a great academic school, have the best coach in all of FCS and maybe college football, we have a great winning tradition and we can offer enough aid to be competitive with the partial schollys offered by many FCS schools. Kids also want to play at the highest level possible, so many of our kids turn down rides to lower division schools to play at Dayton.

This story is repeated around the league. Any time a team dominates like USD did the last few years, questions of "cheating" come up.... I doubt that any cheating goes on and I am confident that the aid provided to players on any and all PFL teams does not fall under the counter requirements of the NCAA. Yes, the aid in the PFL is virtually identical to the aid in the Ivy League, ( we also land kids considering Ivy schools by the way ). Maybe with their huge endowments the Ivys can offer more aid than the PFL, but according to the NCAA, the aid is the same! If you believe that the Ivy League offers "scholarships" for football players, then feel free to believe the same of the PFL!

mcveyrl
November 6th, 2007, 07:53 AM
I hope this can contribute to the conversation, it's anecdotal from DIII. My cousin has for years been a defensive coordinator at several DIII schools. His main job when not coaching and recruiting is to go find aid for athletes, wherever he can. That's just about the only way you can recruit the top athletes to "non-scholarship" programs.

DIII is obviously a little different from DI since there are no allotment of scholarships, but I think any school that is constrained by rules limiting the giving of athletic aid HAS to engage in this to be competitive.

Seahawks Fan
November 6th, 2007, 08:24 AM
How did you think the PFL was doing it? With mirrors? xnodx Isn't it obvious that their players are receiving some form of aid? Their insistence that the PFL is non-scholarship is duplicitous.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 08:39 AM
Thank you Seahawks fan-- Clearly, outside of USDFAN_55, our PFL friends don't get this fact!

No one has a problem with it. Like MCVEYRL said, it goes on in DIII. The difference, however, is the SHEER numbers. There is a big difference between 10 kids and half a team.

YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR THE PL SAY THEY ARE NON-SCHOLARSHIP. YOU WILL NEVER HEAR THE IVY SAY THEY ARE NON-SCHOLARSHIP.

The PFL uses the same technique and claims they are non-scholarship.

And no one has anwered my 42 red-shirt question. If the Davidson fan is correct, USD has:

1/2 the team on financial packages
42 red-shirts.

According to what we are being told, San Diego basically is getting a combo of the:

-smartest (so they can get the academic scholarship) kids
-richest kids (for those who don't need the aid and so they can pay for five years because of the red-shirt)
-best athletes (so they can flirt with a top 25 ranking for three straight years)

We hear how USD can't come up with INSTITUTIONAL AID for football players, hence no Great West, yet we have the above.

I am just, like some other fans, trying to hash this out.

Believe me, I never (nor will I ever) think it is doing something wrong per se-- Just be honest about it and stop calling yourself non-scholarship.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 08:42 AM
BTW, I cannot believe you just stated-- Detroit Flyer--that Mike Kelly may be the best coach in FCS and maybe all of college football. I just spit my coffee out.

He is a good one...and succesful, but the best....come on.

Lehigh Football Nation
November 6th, 2007, 08:53 AM
What's a little bit comical is that this (apparently) came from a Davidson poster, whose school recently said that anybody that makes it through admissions under a certain level of need will get a free education at Davidson. This is similar to the policy that's already been enacted at the bigger Ivy League schools (H-Y-P) and some other Ivies.

Folks are correct that these do count as counters. However, at non-scholarship schools there is no overt aid funnelling out of the athletics department so it's never an issue with hitting the 63 scholarship limit. These scholarship routes have always been available at EVERY school, FBS and FCS, D-II and everywhere. They just are counted as "counters" against the scholarship maximum for the subdivision.

The question that is indirectly getting asked here is the same question being asked of Ivy, Patriot League, and any non-scholarship school that that has no athletic aid or limited aid: namely, is the aid blind to "sporting ability"? My contention is that it isn't, and never can be. A kid that gets a presidential scholarship that is starting for the football team will always be questioned at some level: did he get it ONLY because he can really play football?

I think the interesting part of this is not so much that schools of the PFL (and the Ivy League) are doing these types of things. It's that the Patriot League has pretty much remained static while the NEC has added limited scholarships, the Ivy League has ramped up free educations, and the PFL has added Patriot League-like ways of attracting students. It's not just the NEC and Ivy that are getting good athletes in football: it's the Pioneer League, too. The space we're trying to occupy is getting very, very crowded.

The only way going forward is to boldly take leadership in this arena by changing their AI calculations and probably by offering scholarships tied to these. If the PL only makes minor changes in the offseason, the league across all sports will continue to get worse. xtwocentsx

Lehigh Football Nation
November 6th, 2007, 08:56 AM
YOU WOULD NEVER HEAR THE PL SAY THEY ARE NON-SCHOLARSHIP. YOU WILL NEVER HEAR THE IVY SAY THEY ARE NON-SCHOLARSHIP.

The Ivies have been claiming they're non-scholarship for YEARS, as recently as in a documentary last year. And I've been saying that this is patently untrue, which is why I mention the "free education under $xx,xxx a year" piece. That acts as a scholarship - and by the way, it's very similar to some Patriot League aid programs that do the same thing. The only difference is that the Ivy League, well, is the Ivy League and like to altruistically cling to the non-scholarship myth. The Patriot League did so for a long time, but finally let it go pretty much as soon as we were winning I-AA playoff games in the late 1990s.

DetroitFlyer
November 6th, 2007, 09:00 AM
BTW, I cannot believe you just stated-- Detroit Flyer--that Mike Kelly may be the best coach in FCS and maybe all of college football. I just spit my coffee out.

He is a good one...and succesful, but the best....come on.

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/kelly_mike00.html

I stand behind my thoughts on Mike Kelly 1000%!!!!! No program is ever perfect, but there are few if any that can match up with Dayton in ALL areas!

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 09:20 AM
The Ivies have been claiming they're non-scholarship for YEARS, as recently as in a documentary last year. And I've been saying that this is patently untrue, which is why I mention the "free education under $xx,xxx a year" piece. That acts as a scholarship - and by the way, it's very similar to some Patriot League aid programs that do the same thing. The only difference is that the Ivy League, well, is the Ivy League and like to altruistically cling to the non-scholarship myth. The Patriot League did so for a long time, but finally let it go pretty much as soon as we were winning I-AA playoff games in the late 1990s.


Yes, you are correct...I should have stated differently: THE IVY WOULD NEVER BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE MID-MAJOR MONIKER-- The moniker is given to NON-SCHOLARSHIP or UNDER-FUNDED programs.

That is what I meant.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 09:23 AM
What's a little bit comical is that this (apparently) came from a Davidson poster, whose school recently said that anybody that makes it through admissions under a certain level of need will get a free education at Davidson. This is similar to the policy that's already been enacted at the bigger Ivy League schools (H-Y-P) and some other Ivies.

Folks are correct that these do count as counters. However, at non-scholarship schools there is no overt aid funnelling out of the athletics department so it's never an issue with hitting the 63 scholarship limit. These scholarship routes have always been available at EVERY school, FBS and FCS, D-II and everywhere. They just are counted as "counters" against the scholarship maximum for the subdivision.

The question that is indirectly getting asked here is the same question being asked of Ivy, Patriot League, and any non-scholarship school that that has no athletic aid or limited aid: namely, is the aid blind to "sporting ability"? My contention is that it isn't, and never can be. A kid that gets a presidential scholarship that is starting for the football team will always be questioned at some level: did he get it ONLY because he can really play football?

I think the interesting part of this is not so much that schools of the PFL (and the Ivy League) are doing these types of things. It's that the Patriot League has pretty much remained static while the NEC has added limited scholarships, the Ivy League has ramped up free educations, and the PFL has added Patriot League-like ways of attracting students. It's not just the NEC and Ivy that are getting good athletes in football: it's the Pioneer League, too. The space we're trying to occupy is getting very, very crowded.

The only way going forward is to boldly take leadership in this arena by changing their AI calculations and probably by offering scholarships tied to these. If the PL only makes minor changes in the offseason, the league across all sports will continue to get worse. xtwocentsx


Very well said...thank you. All we are saying is: Stop the smoke and mirrors Patty V. and PFL presidents. You are no different than the PL and others if the aid is at the level stated-- Which of course, we do not know as fact, rather one poster's assertations.

PeacockRaider
November 6th, 2007, 09:55 AM
If that is the case, and the PFL as a whole acts like this, the PFL is FAR from a non-scholarship conference. It may be non-scholarship in name...but the teams are CLEARLY funded if you are arguing the point that it is a wide-spread practice within the PFL. You are similar to the IVY's who find ways to get their kids $$$!

This is a comical post, I believe DetroitFlyer has tried to point this out numerous times. Just because the PFL and Maac can't give athletic football scholarships doesnt mean kids are paying to go there. I went to Saint Peter's because I had 100% of my tuition paid through academic scholarships, I only paid room & board. Many of our skill positions were on track scholarships. There is a way to be competitive at the "non-scholly" level, Coach Stern showed that in his time at SPC, obiviously San Diego and Dayton are very successfull with it now. Non scholly football is not a joke as some like to think.

griz_fan_in_SanDiego
November 6th, 2007, 10:09 AM
The reason many of the players get academic scholarships is there is no way many of them would be able to attend the school without them. Do you have ANY idea how expensive USD is? It's one of the most expensive schools in the nation. I pay $18K per semester to attend the law school. I'm sure tuition for their undergrad programs is about the same.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:10 AM
Peacock- Albany has 4 or 5 kids on OTHER scholarships (e.g. track, baseball, etc). They COUNT against our limit because we are a scholarship football program. We couldn't give 30 scholarships for football...and 10 more in track, baseball, and lax....who just HAPPEN to play football.

By being non-scholarship...you can get around this, e.g. your track stars at St. Peter's.

Furthermore, it isnt that kids are on academic rides-- That is fine. It is CLAIMED THAT HALF THE TEAM IS ON SCHOLARSHIP (Academic) and 42 kids are RED-SHIRT FRESHMAN-- Quite the cost to the freshman to pay for 5 years at 45k a year. The CRUX of the issue is the SHEER NUMBERS.

DIII kids get academic rides all the time...but if 1/2 the squad was getting them...better believe it would be questioned.

Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I have no problem with it...but don't call yourself NON-SCHOLARSHIP. Fact is the NCAA doesn't care about Non-Scholarship football...never has. The last thing they want to do is stir up a hornet's nest and review each school's "academic" or "merit" scholarship criteria. They are just happy letting the schools of the MAAC and PFL (NEC cannot be included because they give rides) be.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:12 AM
The reason many of the players get academic scholarships is there is no way many of them would be able to attend the school without them. Do you have ANY idea how expensive USD is? It's one of the most expensive schools in the nation. I pay $18K per semester to attend the law school. I'm sure tuition for their undergrad programs is about the same.

Yeah...I do know how much it costs. Not the question here. Re-read. I am all for academic rides...but not for the claimed "half the team." It means either you are getting the smartest kids in the land (great...all for it), the richest kids in the land (great...all for it), who just happen to BE FANTASTIC FOOTBALL PLAYERS.

Again...10-20 kids I see it. 45-50...stretch!

griz_fan_in_SanDiego
November 6th, 2007, 10:17 AM
Yeah...I do know how much it costs. Not the question here. Re-read. I am all for academic rides...but not for the claimed "half the team." It means either you are getting the smartest kids in the land (great...all for it), the richest kids in the land (great...all for it), who just happen to BE FANTASTIC FOOTBALL PLAYERS.

Again...10-20 kids I see it. 45-50...stretch!

According to everyone on here they're not that fantastic xlolx I do understand where you're coming from...however I don't think it's quite the conspiracy you think it is

need based scholarships may also be a factor to consider

aceinthehole
November 6th, 2007, 10:24 AM
Yes, you are correct...I should have stated differently: THE IVY WOULD NEVER BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE MID-MAJOR MONIKER-- The moniker is given to NON-SCHOLARSHIP or UNDER-FUNDED programs.

That is what I meant.

Thank you LFN and D96.

This just proves again, the entire media-based concept of "FCS mid-major football" is a farce. There is no need for this definition or rankings.

Fact is SHU may well be the worst team in FCS and Albany may be ranked #25. Who cares? They are both FCS programs and should be classified as so. The media (and the PFL and NEC) are making a huge mistake by adopting or accepting this moniker.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:25 AM
San Diego Griz- Never said it was a conspiracy. Never said it was wrong. It was a Davidson poster. What I do think, however, is that the term NON-SCHOLARSHIP at these levels of funding are quite the MISNOMER...just like they are in the IVY's...and just like they were in the PL.

If anything, this would help Detroit Flyer's cause to get rid of the mid-major moniker...and just call it FCS.

PeacockRaider
November 6th, 2007, 10:25 AM
Yeah...I do know how much it costs. Not the question here. Re-read. I am all for academic rides...but not for the claimed "half the team." It means either you are getting the smartest kids in the land (great...all for it), the richest kids in the land (great...all for it), who just happen to BE FANTASTIC FOOTBALL PLAYERS.

Again...10-20 kids I see it. 45-50...stretch!

Good point, maybe look at how many kids throughout the school our on academic rides. It does seem high, however a school that charges that much needs to have a lot of scholarships available. Im not positive but I believe the ivies are similiar, it costs over 40k to go there, but how many are actually paying that and not on some endowment scholly, non-athletes included

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:26 AM
Thank you LFN and D96.

This just proves again, the entire media-based concept of "FCS mid-major football" is a farce. There is no need for this definition or rankings.

Fact is SHU may well be the worst team in FCS and Albany may be ranked #25. Who cares? They are both FCS programs and should be classified as so. The media (and the PFL and NEC) are making a huge mistake by adopting or accepting this moniker.

JEESH...must be the East Coast smarts-- Ace and LFN get it.

Ironically, we agree with Detroit Flyer on something.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:29 AM
Good point, maybe look at how many kids throughout the school our on academic rides. It does seem high, however a school that charges that much needs to have a lot of scholarships available. Im not positive but I believe the ivies are similiar, it costs over 40k to go there, but how many are actually paying that and not on some endowment scholly, non-athletes included


Exactly-- And you will never get a soul on this board to admit the Ivy's are not FULLY FUNDED. They may proclaim that...but it is far from fact. When Princeton was recruiting me for baseball, my family had a "two-parent" income.

We were far from rich...and far from poor enough to receive aid to cover my room/board and tuition. That...is what making upper middle class $$ and living in NYC will do.

My parents (nor I) were not going to pay a dime for my Princeton education.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:35 AM
I just want to know where Model Citizen is at-- Buddy, still think I didnt answer USDFAN_55's direct question on how BYLAW 15 applies to the 63 Counter limit and that FSC football counts as both a Counter AND Equivalency sport?

aceinthehole
November 6th, 2007, 10:35 AM
JEESH...must be the East Coast smarts-- Ace and LFN get it.

Ironically, we agree with Detroit Flyer on something.

One of the few things. :)

I support each team or conference to do as they wish as long as it is within the NCAA guidlines. I don't want some cheezeball reporters, or some ignorant fan from another school to define my program by some personal bias that fall outside of the NCAA criteria.

We all play by a set of rules, governed by the NCAA. For anyone to modify the criteria for their own purpose (polls, playoffs, etc.) is wrong. xnonox

Lehigh Football Nation
November 6th, 2007, 10:38 AM
Furthermore, it isnt that kids are on academic rides-- That is fine. It is CLAIMED THAT HALF THE TEAM IS ON SCHOLARSHIP (Academic) and 42 kids are RED-SHIRT FRESHMAN-- Quite the cost to the freshman to pay for 5 years at 45k a year. The CRUX of the issue is the SHEER NUMBERS.

I agree with you Dane96 about the numbers involved.. raising an eyebrow is certainly warranted. But another interesting point you bring up that hasn't been talked about is the 42 red-shirt freshmen. Red-shirting is something that the Patriot League and Ivy do not do due to philosophical reasons - that goes back to the Ivy League agreement in 1948, basically, kids are in school to get educations and not to just play football.

The number of red-shirt freshmen is a VERY SIGNIFICANT deviation from the principles of what the Patriot League and Ivy League do in football. It deviates from the dogma in a very significant way.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 10:42 AM
I agree with you Dane96 about the numbers involved.. raising an eyebrow is certainly warranted. But another interesting point you bring up that hasn't been talked about is the 42 red-shirt freshmen. Red-shirting is something that the Patriot League and Ivy do not do due to philosophical reasons - that goes back to the Ivy League agreement in 1948, basically, kids are in school to get educations and not to just play football.

The number of red-shirt freshmen is a VERY SIGNIFICANT deviation from the principles of what the Patriot League and Ivy League do in football. It deviates from the dogma in a very significant way.

Very true indeed, and it gives more ammo to the air of TRUE NON-SCHOLARSHIP status.

Think about this: If as Detroit Flyer brings to the table, about 1 year of the 4 is paid for by scholarship at PL's. Now you have 42 red-shirts. That means, if we follow the dots, 42 red-shirts are still taking out the FULL COST OF TUITION, ROOM, and BOARD for 4 years.

Again, these guys just happen to be great football players. My question is...how are they winning these guys out when there are some fine schools that offer rides...and are willing to pay for a good chunk of the same nut for the kid.

Forgetting the location, academics, etc.

It just raises BOTH eyebrows-- THIS WAS THE MAIN POINT OF THE DAVIDSON FAN!

DetroitFlyer
November 6th, 2007, 11:17 AM
Here are some tidbits from UD's game notes:

http://daytonflyers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110107aaa.html

GREAT GRAD RATES UD's 96 scores in the 2006 GSR (Graduation Success Rate) is the fifth-best in NCAA Division I football. Fellow PFL member Davidson was atop the rankings with 100, followed by Navy and William & Mary (98), and Furman (97). Boston College and UD were next at 96. Other schools with APR's above 90 were Bucknell (95), Stanford (94), Air Force, Duke and Villanova (93). As an institution, UD's overall GSR of 95 tied for the fourth-best score.


GOTTA PLAY SMART The University of Dayton placed a league-best 14 players on the 2006 Academic All-Pioneer Football League team. It was the fourth straight year UD had the most players on the PFL Academic team. Since the league's origin in 1993, over a quarter (138 of 509) of the PFL All-Academic selections have been Flyers. UD also had 64 players on the PFL Academic Honor Roll (3.0 GPA or better). That was 24 better than the next-best school.


HITTING THE BOOKS The Dayton football program has produced 13 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-Americans since the 2000 season. That's most at any level of college football. Safety Brandon Cramer was named a First Team ESPN The Magazine Academic All-America in 2006, after being named to the second team in 2005. In the history of the Academic All-America program, UD has had 45 football Academic All-Americans. Among schools currently playing Division I football, only Nebraska (81) and Notre Dame (46) have had more. UD has had at least one football player named Academic All-American in 15 of the last 16 years. UD had five players named to the 2005 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-District Team, the most of any school in the district for the fifth straight year. At least twelve Flyers were nominated for Academic All-America in each of the last four years (16 this season). THE CREAM DOES RISE TO THE TOP UD's 2007 football roster includes a number of what some might call "over-achievers." Forty-nine current Flyers were in the National Honor Society, and 99 were team captains in some sport. Twenty-six captained two different teams, and 13 were three-sport captains in high school.



So, almost half of the team, ( 49 players ), were in the National Honor Society in high school. Is it any wonder that these kids go on to significant academic success?

I have no way to know for sure, but I would not be surprised if 49 National Honor Society kids received a decent amount of academic aid. Maybe combined with some need based aid to cover a chunk of the costs....

Why do these kids come to Dayton and not accept a ride elsewhere? The answers are as varied as the students and the families. Whenever I meet players and families, I usually ask, why Dayton. Some of the answers I have heard, ( in no particular order ):

1. Desired academic program
2. Wanted to play Division I football
3. Wanted to play a specific position
4. Wanted to be part of a winning tradition
5. Mike Kelly, nuff said!!
6. Close enough for my parents to see me play
7. League is national and enjoy travel across the country
8. Good academic reputation
9. Catholic College
10. Love the University of Dayton, ( true for athletes and non-athletes alike ).

I have yet to hear a single player or parent say they chose Dayton because it was the least expensive option for them. Not a single one! Now, I would think that a small number of extremely academically gifted kids might get a free academic ride, but my sense is that if true, it is a low number.

Unlike the MAAC, there is a rule in the PFL, ( as I understand it ), that a football player cannot be on the team if they have an athletic scholarship for another sport, ( such as a track scholarship ).

lucchesicourt
November 6th, 2007, 11:48 AM
Hey USD fans, don't get all hung up in what is a schollie and what is not a schollie. UCD went through the same thing as you are now. All schollies count as athletic schollies whether it is academic or athletic schollie. The NCAA does not stipulate. That is why UCD had a total of 7 so called grants in aid (athletic schollies) even though no athletic schollies were offered at UCD before we went D1, but it still counts as an athletic schollie. That way you cannot offer more than the maximum number of schollies. You cannot offer 63 athletic schollies and 5 academic schollies to your football team as that would be a total of 68 schollies, which is against the rules.

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:30 PM
Stop...stop...that is more common sense!

Where's model citizen....calling model citizen!!!

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:31 PM
Very true indeed, and it gives more ammo to the air of TRUE NON-SCHOLARSHIP status.

Think about this: If as Detroit Flyer brings to the table, about 1 year of the 4 is paid for by scholarship at PL's. Now you have 42 red-shirts. That means, if we follow the dots, 42 red-shirts are still taking out the FULL COST OF TUITION, ROOM, and BOARD for 4 years.

Again, these guys just happen to be great football players. My question is...how are they winning these guys out when there are some fine schools that offer rides...and are willing to pay for a good chunk of the same nut for the kid.

Forgetting the location, academics, etc.

It just raises BOTH eyebrows-- THIS WAS THE MAIN POINT OF THE DAVIDSON FAN!

I'm really not sure how the Davidson fan knows how many redshirt feshmen there are this year. Maybe he was just looking at the teams roster this year and noticed there are 43 players on the team that are either a Redshirt FR, Redshirt SO, Reshirt JR, or Redshirt SR. How does that number compare to other FCS schools?

Dane96
November 6th, 2007, 12:33 PM
Well, considering you can not bring in more than 25 recruits a season on scholarship...high depending on what the facts are.

He specifically stated 42 R-FR...he didnt say "littered throughout the roster, USD has red-shirts."

Based on that...the number is EXTREMELY HIGH.

USDFAN_55
November 6th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Well, considering you can not bring in more than 25 recruits a season on scholarship...high depending on what the facts are.

He specifically stated 42 R-FR...he didnt say "littered throughout the roster, USD has red-shirts."

Based on that...the number is EXTREMELY HIGH.

14 RS-FR on the roster this year. The actual number of players that are redshirting this year is not listed any where, so I have no clue how the Davidson fan would know that number.

Foosball
November 6th, 2007, 12:52 PM
I can't believe I read all these boring "Schollie/Non-schollie" posts hoping for more (interesting) stories on the co-eds of USD.

DetroitFlyer
November 6th, 2007, 01:02 PM
PFL and "Red Shirts"....

Red shirting is a popular tool in the PFL. MANY of the kids we recruit are not truly Division I players as freshman. A year of being in the system, strength and conditioning, and practice can work wonders for a kid. Remember that most of these kids are multi-sport athletes in high school. When do they have time to lift weights, gain weight, etc. Say you bring in a lineman that is 6' 3" but weighs maybe 245 lbs. A year of strength training and conditioning can get that kid up to 6' 3" and maybe 270 lbs. A big difference.... Maybe it is a QB that is 6' 0", and 150 lbs. In a year, he might pick up 20 to 25 lbs of muscle. A huge difference!

Red shirting is also a gamble for a PFL team.... Since our kids are not on scholarship, if they stay for a 5th year, they have to pay for at least one more semester. Some use this to take a slightly lower course load designed to graduate in December of their fifth year, others go to graduate school in order to play 5 years. Getting back to the risk.... Remember that many kids come to PFL schools because they want to play.... Sitting a whole year is not acceptable to some.... I know of kids that either just quit playing football alltogether or transferred out.... It does not happen often, but it does happen. The kid who quit playing alltogether was actually a two star Rivals recruit....

At Dayton, it is an adventure every year.... How many seniors that redshirted as freshman are going to come back? MANY are just anxious to get on with life, get a real job, start a family, whatever.... Some do come back each year, however, and we are MUCH better as a result.

Davidson is a unique case in the PFL. I think that they are the only school that does not redshirt. For one thing, they do not have a graduate school, so that is not an option. Brad Smith, their all everything kicker graduated with a year of eligibility left. He ended up walking on to USC, yes that USC! At Dayton, San Diego or any other PFL school, he would have enrolled in grad school and played another year.

Frankly, this is another difference between the PL and the Ivy League that allows the PFL to carve out its niche in the world of FCS football. It is also another reason why the PFL can produce competitive FCS teams using the non-scholarship model.

flyenhigh
November 6th, 2007, 09:41 PM
Say WHAT the PFL is going full Scholarship!!! YES!!!xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx


Give me a break.

97Torero
November 6th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Having scrolled through all this back and forth, I am still a bit amazed that this all started based on a misinformed individuals claims. Davidson fan claims that there are 42 Redshirt freshman at usd. A glance at the roster shows a total of 42 freshman on the roster. The total roster is comprised of 104 athletes. I know that freshman level seems awfully high, but as I recall from playing back in the mid 90's, that is pretty normal at USD as attrition is awfully high for those paying all or most of the tab. As for the rest of the student body, I know that 70% of the student body receives some form of financial aid. So for me to think that a large % of football players receive aid would seem to be inline with the rest of the student body as a whole. Just my 2 cents.

GOTOREROS
November 7th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Luckily Josh Johnson didn't redshirt during his career at San Diego!!!! Imagine the comments if he was that much faster and stronger if he had an extra year to bulk up!!!!

henfan
November 7th, 2007, 09:04 AM
Delaware played the "non-scholarship" game back in the '70's into the mid-'80's too. There are all sorts of games that can be played with financial aid & admissions when it comes to student-athletes.

DUPFLFan
November 7th, 2007, 09:48 AM
Model Citizen has it correct.

Most of the PFL have some type of Academic Scholarship. Drake also has a Presidential Scholarship that is offered to the entire student body and is based on ACT score and HS GPA. Some football players have this scholarship.

Dane96
November 7th, 2007, 10:33 AM
How does MODEL CITIZEN have it correct? He has nothing correct. He was flat wrong.

GOTOREROS
November 7th, 2007, 02:53 PM
I love how people are making conclusions based upon "rumor" and what some fan reports on the internet. Most fans including myself rarely have the full facts. I am not here to argue one way or the other but I don't think anyone here really knows exactly what the scenario truly is and what players in the PFL are receiving or not receiving......so to most everyone in this thread perhaps its time to step back and stop arguing about something no one appears to have concrete evidence one way or the other....