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HensRock
April 21st, 2005, 09:38 AM
No surprise. UD bolsters OL with transfer...from Miami!

Newark, DE -
The University of Delaware football team's depleted offensive line will be bolstered this fall by the addition of Robert Bergman, who has spent the last four years at Miami (Fla.).

Bergman, 6-foot-5 and 290 pounds, saw backup duty as a red-shirt freshman in 2002 on the Miami team that lost the BCS title game to Ohio State at the Fiesta Bowl and again as a sophomore in 2003. He was on the team last fall but did not see game action.

The Bakersfield, Calif., resident expects to graduate in May from Miami, where he double majored in marketing and management. He'll pursue a master's degree in business administration at Delaware, having been notified of his acceptance Wednesday, and use his remaining season of football eligibility with the Blue Hens, he said.


[complete story...] (http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/sports/2005/04/21hurricanelinema.html)

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 09:57 AM
jeez...

You know, all the power in the world to UD for getting players like this, but I have to say I am more and more against this being allowed in I-AA.

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 10:08 AM
You know, all the power in the world to UD for getting players like this, but I have to say I am more and more against this being allowed in I-AA.

Yup, but until it is stopped across the board, teams sometimes have to do this to stay at the top. We all would rather see 4 year products on the field, but given the alternative... I'd rather see a good team.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 10:14 AM
Yup, but until it is stopped across the board, teams sometimes have to do this to stay at the top. We all would rather see 4 year products on the field, but given the alternative... I'd rather see a good team.
And let me reiterate - I see nothing wrong with UD doing this. I wish the PL would allow it so we could be competitive with the rest of I-AA. BUT, I think all of I-AA should close this loophole to eligibility.

Congrats to UD. Colgate will just have to get its tranfers the old fashioned way: JUCOs! :D

ccujacket
April 21st, 2005, 10:28 AM
Colgate get's JUCO transfers? I wouldn't think any of them could get into Colgate.

ChickenMan
April 21st, 2005, 10:31 AM
Colgate takes JUCOs... like Harvard takes Prop 48's...

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 10:33 AM
Colgate takes JUCOs... like Harvard takes Prop 48's...
exactly! ;)

GannonFan
April 21st, 2005, 10:34 AM
I don't see this as a loophole - it's not like the language in the transfer rules are vague or anything. You don't lose a year of eligibility transferring from IA to IAA and you have 5 years from when you matriculate to play 4 years, barring some intervention by the NCAA (mainly for medical reasons). This guy is a very good student apparently (will have a double major degree from Miami and has been All Big East All Academic) and just wants to play in his last year, something he won't get to do at Miami. Why would you be against very deserving guys like this having a chance to play? Where's the harm to IAA, the school, or the team for something like this?

ChickenMan
April 21st, 2005, 10:39 AM
You only like guys like that... if they play for you... ;)

Ronbo
April 21st, 2005, 10:48 AM
I see nothing wrong with a player that is sitting the bench and not playing getting that chance to play at another school. It's NOT FAIR to make a kid sit out of the games for his entire career and this is 95% the reason they transfer.

HensRock
April 21st, 2005, 11:06 AM
Plus he is graduating Miami and doing is Masters at UD. (I know - I know, we'll see if he completes his MBA work - but still). He's a UD student. He has 1 year of FB eligibility remaining. Why not get a free ride for 1 year and compete for your school. (And maybe even get on the field for a change!)

Tribe4SF
April 21st, 2005, 11:19 AM
Nice addition for the Hens. The o-line still needs some fillers, but this certainly is good news for you guys.

HensRock
April 21st, 2005, 11:26 AM
I think you are spot on 4SF. Due to some verbals not signing and a couple of dismissals last month, I beleive KC still has 3-4 schollies to offer. I would not be surprised to see another OL transfer and maybe one on DL. Both hopefully with 2-3 years eligibility remaining.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 11:33 AM
Well obviously I have a different opinion of the matter, but I view this as "rent a player". The student got a scholarship and, whether he played or not, used up eligibility at Miami. Then with one year left he wants to troll the I-AA landscape to get a degree for free somewhere else. He didn't have his heart set on going to UD and this is a dream come true... He said, hmmm, let me try the Ivys. No luck. Where else can I go?

I see Division I-A college graduates trying to play one more year at a I-AA 'quasi-professional' players. He's done! He graduated! Sure, he's got eligiblity left but he's a college graduate! Isn't the core point of college to get a degree? Sure, it's now a graduate degree he's pursuing but isn't the original purpose of the NCAA to be an association for college athletes, not an association for post-graduate athletes who want to try their luck somewhere new?

I can buy the arguement of someone who graduates early, or someone who sticks around for a 5th year of eligiblity at the school they were an undergrad at. But to essentially sell your professional services as a football player for a year for the price of a graduate degree (if completed) is a different animal IMHO.

bluehenbillk
April 21st, 2005, 11:39 AM
I disagree, isn't the NCAA currently weighing the issue of giving all college athletes 5 years of eligibility anyway? The bottom line is the kid has a year of eligibility left, he could've stayed & played another year w/Miami but decided to pursue his studies elsewhere while getting to play.

I can't fault the kid or the school at all.

ChickenMan
April 21st, 2005, 11:45 AM
I can buy the arguement of someone who graduates early, or someone who sticks around for a 5th year of eligiblity at the school they were an undergrad at. But to essentially sell your professional services as a football player for a year for the price of a graduate degree (if completed) is a different animal IMHO.


Why... don't most or many students who get their undergrad degrees from one institution normally do their grad work at another...???

Anovafan
April 21st, 2005, 11:48 AM
I am against I-A to I-AA transfers without sitting a year. I understand that UD is playing by the rules; I just don't like the rule. I also don't like the fact that a player can transfer after he has graduated, play for one semester and then drop out. That is just a bad rule, plain and simple. This is clearly not in the spirit of college athletics and because I-AA football is the only place this is happening, nobody cares. If this was happening at Div I basketball or I-A football, you can only imagine the outcry from the media and the big schools who would effectively have free agency in college sports. I am also against actively recruiting I-A transfers, which I know is going on.

bunny
April 21st, 2005, 11:57 AM
I agree with the Hen fans on the question of I-A -> I-AA transfers for a final year. This is good for the player: he gets to persue a higher level of education and play some ball. This is an good example of the college experience working out well for an individual. If the colleges & athletics departments are exploiting the kids then a rule change should be considered.

On that note I found this to be very interesting....


From Delawareonline
But a coach at Penn informed Delaware offensive coordinator Kirk Ciarrocca of Bergman's availability. Ciarrocca was a Penn assistant before coming to Delaware.
Is this kind of information sharing common?

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 11:59 AM
I see Division I-A college graduates trying to play one more year at a I-AA 'quasi-professional' players. He's done! He graduated! Sure, he's got eligiblity left but he's a college graduate! Isn't the core point of college to get a degree? Sure, it's now a graduate degree he's pursuing but isn't the original purpose of the NCAA to be an association for college athletes, not an association for post-graduate athletes who want to try their luck somewhere new?

What about cases like Chris Weinke (sp?)? Didn't he in essence try his luck again after baseball didn't work out?

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 12:01 PM
Is this kind of information sharing common?

I think Penn plays Villanova this year. Perhaps the Penn coach wanted to make sure he didn't end up there.

ChickenMan
April 21st, 2005, 12:02 PM
With all the other admission and eligibility irregularities that occur in today's college football... I'm not too concerned about guys who are good students and obviously academically qualified... transfering to get some playing time.

henfan
April 21st, 2005, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Colgate13:
I see Division I-A college graduates trying to play one more year at a I-AA 'quasi-professional' players. He's done! He graduated!

Would you feel the same way about a Colgate player who was gifted and worked hard to receive his undergrad degree in 3 years, even if he had another year of eligibility remaining? Would an alternative be to not incent student-athletes to receive their undergrad degrees in less than 5 years or not provide additional incentive for them to seek post-grad credits? Help me to understand that line of thinking.

The NCAA doesn't prohibit granting aid to full-time students, whether under- or post-grad. As long as they are both a student and an athlete should it matter?

GannonFan
April 21st, 2005, 12:24 PM
Well obviously I have a different opinion of the matter, but I view this as "rent a player". The student got a scholarship and, whether he played or not, used up eligibility at Miami. Then with one year left he wants to troll the I-AA landscape to get a degree for free somewhere else. He didn't have his heart set on going to UD and this is a dream come true... He said, hmmm, let me try the Ivys. No luck. Where else can I go?

I see Division I-A college graduates trying to play one more year at a I-AA 'quasi-professional' players. He's done! He graduated! Sure, he's got eligiblity left but he's a college graduate! Isn't the core point of college to get a degree? Sure, it's now a graduate degree he's pursuing but isn't the original purpose of the NCAA to be an association for college athletes, not an association for post-graduate athletes who want to try their luck somewhere new?

I can buy the arguement of someone who graduates early, or someone who sticks around for a 5th year of eligiblity at the school they were an undergrad at. But to essentially sell your professional services as a football player for a year for the price of a graduate degree (if completed) is a different animal IMHO.

The problem I have with that viewpoint is that, outside of the true non-scholarship schools, every college football player is a rent-a-player: they are trading their skills as football players for either scholarships or grant-in-aid's, none of which they would get had they not been football players. The only difference here is the length of time they are at the school. And as far as I know, the NCAA is an association for college athletics and that includes post-graduate athletes (they are attending college, correct?).

This isn't a terribly common thing for athletes to do and you don't see more than a handful of examples of this every year so even though it's out there there's no mad dash for "free-agency". These are kids who are more often than not examplars of what you want in student athletes - they play sports and graduate on-time. UD's had 3 guys now (Johnson, Bible, and now Bergman) who have degrees from other schools in 4 years and still one year left to play. They are all quality people who have succeeded as student-athletes. Why impose draconian rules to prevent these types of students from free access to enjoy what any other student would typically be allowed? It would seem to be a rule intended to punish kids who are actually doing all the right things.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 01:23 PM
My opinion differs when a student stays at the same school as their undergrad because they've already invested their time there and are not transfers. These situations deal with transfers who are transfering solely based on the ability to play football for one year. "One and done". That goes against the spirit of intercollegiate athletics in my book.

Intercollegiate athletics was meant to be competition between students of various schools. When the NCAA gave 5 years of eligibility to play 4, it is meant to go towards red-shirting and to the fact that many take 5 years (hopefully!) to graduate or they had an injury one year. That's fine. A student who has graduated from an institution they went to, played at, received a scholarship from, whatever, should be done competing. When they transfer for basically the sole purpose of playing football for a semester, what kind of student-athlete is that? That's more like an borrowed athlete-student. It stinks to me.

The final part of why it stinks is because it does give some schools a significant advantage over other schools. The PL does not allow these kinds of transfers because not all members have grad schools. That situation exists for all of I-AA. So basically, some I-AA schools can take advantage of this loophole and some can't. And there's really no way around it or thing like it (that I can think of). Some schools choose to not give scholarships, or choose not to play in the playoffs. But it's pretty unreasonable to think that because a school doesn't have a grad program, they should be excluded from a segment of potential recruits and others should have an advantage?

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 01:29 PM
UD's had 3 guys now (Johnson, Bible, and now Bergman) who have degrees from other schools in 4 years and still one year left to play.

Wasn't Keith Burnell also a VT grad when he came in 2002?

Kill'em
April 21st, 2005, 01:30 PM
The problem I have with this is he has only one year of eligibility left and while this might be a great opportunity for him, it takes away a scholarship that can be used to bring along a freshman who could give you four years and a redshirt year to help him adjust to college life. I don't like schools accepting too many I-A transfers. I equate it to the New York Yankees and Mets. They build so much for right now that they have few young players to groom. They have pigeonholed themselves into maintaining this in order to win.

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 01:32 PM
The problem I have with this is he has only one year of eligibility left and while this might be a great opportunity for him, it takes away a scholarship that can be used to bring along a freshman who could give you four years and a redshirt year to help him adjust to college life.

Actually quite the opposite. All high schoolers have already been signed. This way he only ties up a schollie for one year making it available for a freshman next year.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 01:33 PM
Actually quite the opposite. All high schoolers have already been signed. This way he only ties up a schollie for one year making it available for a freshman next year.
well yes, but you can't tell me he doesn't keep a few in his pocket for transfers. I'm sure many schools keep at least one or two there.

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 01:37 PM
well yes, but you can't tell me he doesn't keep a few in his pocket for transfers. I'm sure many schools keep at least one or two there.

Sure one or two. But by a school offering less than the maximum allowable scholarships for football aren't they in essence robbing high school football players of scholarships too? :p

JaxSinfonian
April 21st, 2005, 01:54 PM
When they transfer for basically the sole purpose of playing football for a semester, what kind of student-athlete is that? That's more like an borrowed athlete-student. It stinks to me.

The final part of why it stinks is because it does give some schools a significant advantage over other schools.

13, I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you here, because you're normally one of the best-mannered, most reasonable posters at AGS. But you're assuming that football is this guy's primary motivation, and I suspect that it might be the opposite. The fact that he contacted the Ivies first tells me he's thinking about his education. It looks to me like he wants an MBA from the best school he can get someone else to pay for. If Delaware will pay his way in return for playing a game he enjoys, he'll do it. I'm sure it won't hurt his feelings any that he might get a look or two from some NFL scouts, but I'd guess the kid just wants an MBA.

If the rules are working in this guy's favor, then I think the NCAA is doing what it's supposed to do for a change - benefitting a student athlete. Is it more important to keep other schools happy by denying him a shot at a masters?

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 02:14 PM
Sure one or two. But by a school offering less than the maximum allowable scholarships for football aren't they in essence robbing high school football players of scholarships too? :p
:p

That sounds like a very liberal type arguement there Hen. You need to watch yourself!!!

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 02:39 PM
But you're assuming that football is this guy's primary motivation, and I suspect that it might be the opposite. The fact that he contacted the Ivies first tells me he's thinking about his education.

Thanks for the kind words Jax - I've got a thick skin to go with those manners so don't worry!

I agree. It depends on how you look at the situation. I am highly suspect of the educational motivation behind the decision. I'm sure there were many factors in his choice going to Miami, but unless it was for Marine Biology, Miami isn't exactly a leader in education. But that's not my primary knock or reason for my belief. I'm sure there are plenty of smart kids getting a good education at Miami - the stereotype is there though.

My main reason is that I get the impression he shopped around his football wares to the best school that would pay him for a degree. If he was truly Ivy bound (and quality) and education was paramount, why would you ever give up a Wharton, Tuck or Harvard MBA? He was looking kill to birds with one stone: play football for one more year and maybe get a shot at the NFL AND get a great name on the resume that almost insures professional success. Again, no knock on UD's program. If he sticks with it his degree will be a great asset to him. But he obviously chose athletics over academics in this case and he was only able to do it because of this explotation of the transfer down rule.

I see it as one more step further towards semi-pro athletes in D I and I'm not in favour of it.

JaxSinfonian
April 21st, 2005, 03:21 PM
My main reason is that I get the impression he shopped around his football wares to the best school that would pay him for a degree. If he was truly Ivy bound (and quality) and education was paramount, why would you ever give up a Wharton, Tuck or Harvard MBA?

Well, yeah, I get the same impression. I said pretty much the same thing you did in your first sentence there. I'm sure he'd have picked Harvard over UD for an MBA, but Harvard wouldn't let him play to pay for school. He asked. And I'll bet he's not sitting on the cash to pay for it on his own. Perhaps he doesn't quite make the academic cut there, either.

The Hens, meanwhile, have an MBA program he can get into (I don't know anything about its quality) and are willing to pay his tuition if he'll play football. He gets a sheepskin (eventually) and gets to keep playing pigskin. Maybe he's got an outside shot at the pros, but I'd call that just another career option. And who wouldn't take it, given the chance, good student or not?

As for Miami's academic reputation, I won't say anything since I'm just a Jax State grad talking to a Colgate alum. But lousy schools don't necessarily produce lousy students. And perhaps when he was a wee high school lad he was in the same situation he's in now -- who's going to give him the money to go to school?

Maybe you're right and he's just milking this for another semester on the field. Many freshmen have the same motivation. But if playing time was all he wanted wouldn't he maybe have bailed a little sooner at Miami instead of going to class? Looks to me like he chose academics over athletics there, and now he's found a way to keep doing both,

Lehigh Football Nation
April 21st, 2005, 03:21 PM
The problem with "one-and-done" transfers is that it invites abuse. The way it stands right now Bergman could transfer, play out his eligibility, and drop out of grad school once his eligibility is done - without even finishing a semester in school. I think that's why I-A transfers have to sit out a year - they actually have to go to classes, attend the campus, etc. before being allowed to join the team.

You may say, "well, that's how the rules were written, and I don't see Delaware or Bergman complaining", but clearly it violates the spirit of the rule. You have to be able to offer some proof that the student is actually going to classes and planning to graduate. It's impossible to verify without at least one semester under your belt.

I think transfers are fine - they have their place - but there should be a limit on them (max 2 per school). Furthermore, if they're going to transfer, there should be a rule that they require some minimal GPA for 1 semester before playing football. That should solve the "what should I do with my last year of eligibility" question.

Anovafan
April 21st, 2005, 03:24 PM
13, I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you here, because you're normally one of the best-mannered, most reasonable posters at AGS. But you're assuming that football is this guy's primary motivation, and I suspect that it might be the opposite. The fact that he contacted the Ivies first tells me he's thinking about his education. It looks to me like he wants an MBA from the best school he can get someone else to pay for. If Delaware will pay his way in return for playing a game he enjoys, he'll do it. I'm sure it won't hurt his feelings any that he might get a look or two from some NFL scouts, but I'd guess the kid just wants an MBA.

If the rules are working in this guy's favor, then I think the NCAA is doing what it's supposed to do for a change - benefitting a student athlete. Is it more important to keep other schools happy by denying him a shot at a masters?

The NCAA isn't doing what it is supposed to be doing here, it doesn't even know what is going on; nobody cares because it is I-AA football!!!! If this was going on at Div I basketball or I-A football, even if these kids are doing it for the education, NOBODY would stand for it. Say a b-ball player goes to Cincinatti (not quite a bastion of learning), plays three years, gets injured one, does well because he is a smart kid, graduates and then goes to Duke for his 5th year to take some graduate classes, and starts for the Blue Devils, you don't think anyone would have a problem with this??? It would be on the cover of SI.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 03:34 PM
But if playing time was all he wanted wouldn't he maybe have bailed a little sooner at Miami instead of going to class? Looks to me like he chose academics over athletics there, and now he's found a way to keep doing both,

Great point. And don't sell yourself short. You can tangle minds with any alum any day. :cool:

Anovafan
April 21st, 2005, 03:36 PM
And everyone, Miami is a pretty good school, it is ranked (58th) ahead of UD (66th) in national universities. It's business school is ranked higher than UD's as well. Everyone links Miami to FSU, but it is a small private university with good academics.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 03:38 PM
And everyone, Miami is a pretty good school
I figured as much - I know the law school isn't bad. It just has a stereotype for football players... I shouldn't have gone there.

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 03:40 PM
clearly it violates the spirit of the rule. You have to be able to offer some proof that the student is actually going to classes and planning to graduate.

Slow down on that one. They'd have to do away with NCAA men's basketball altogether if that's how it's going to be.

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 03:43 PM
Slow down on that one. They'd have to do away with NCAA men's basketball altogether if that's how it's going to be.
No they wouldn't. There would still be the Ivy League and most of the Patriot League! ;)

89Hen
April 21st, 2005, 03:46 PM
I said MEN'S basketball. :p

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 03:48 PM
I said MEN'S basketball. :p
Somebody's getting a bit punchy at work... :D :p

JaxSinfonian
April 21st, 2005, 03:49 PM
And don't sell yourself short.

Oh, I'm not. Faux modesty is just a debating tactic. To quote Garrison Keillor "Here in the South, it is a virtue to be a good deal smarter than you appear to be."

:D

colgate13
April 21st, 2005, 03:50 PM
Oh, I'm not. Faux modesty is just a debating tactic. To quote Garrison Keillor "Here in the South, it is a virtue to be a good deal smarter than you appear to be."

:D
Gotcha! Here in the North, we don't know how to pronounce Faux. :p

bluehenbillk
April 21st, 2005, 03:53 PM
If a college hoops player transferred for his 5th year to another major power it wouldn't be on the cover of SI, it wouldn't even be in the footnotes. How many good college hoops players even make it to their senior year???

If they're that good they'd be in the NBA.

Proud Griz Man
April 21st, 2005, 04:07 PM
Anybody know why this kid got playing time as a Frosh (BCS championship runner-up?) but got zero playing time last year (didn't Miami struggle some?). :confused:

HensRock
April 21st, 2005, 05:34 PM
But to essentially sell your professional services as a football player for a year for the price of a graduate degree (if completed) is a different animal IMHO.

But isn't that what he did at Miami for 4 years to get his bachelor's degree ("sold his professional services")? What is the difference?

Anovafan
April 21st, 2005, 06:30 PM
And what did Shawn Johnson do his second semester at UD again????

ChickenMan
April 21st, 2005, 07:44 PM
This is begining to sound like a bunch of...

http://www.sallyminker.com/art/2-d/images/grapes-print.jpg

sour grapes... :p

MR. CHICKEN
April 21st, 2005, 08:30 PM
WHY IS IT WHEN DELAWARE GETS UH TRANSFER.....THE BOARD LIGHTS UP?.....SEVERALAH I-AA's HAVE ANNOUNCED TRANSFER STUDENTS SINCE JANUARY.....BUT WE LAND UH MIAMI LAD.......AN' ALL DUH WRATH O' DUH BOARD COMES DOWN ON NEWARK!.........BRAWK@A-10.GPI/heybuddycanyouspareuhyear!

what 'bout duh new thunder & lightnin' at souther illinois last year?...ya'll had no comment on dat!..........ooooops!.....CAPSLOCK!

RadMann
April 21st, 2005, 09:22 PM
The fact is that these students picked UD. Those that oppose this can say all they want to but let's be honest, they did not pick your place....

That being said, I see where the Colgate and other opponents come from. This is to some degree an "angle" that coach Keeler has taken advantage of. That being said, A) the student wanted to come to UD, B) allowing the student to play is within the rules and C) there are going to be very few of these fifth year transfers who have an impact like Shawn Johnson did (probably not another like him for a long time). I mean, SJ was first team ACC the year before! Most of these guys will make the team deeper and may start, but they are not earthshaking additions.

ngineer
April 21st, 2005, 09:44 PM
First there were the jokes about playing The Sisters of the Poor on one end of the spectrum. At the other end we have Mercenary U. with the Hessians being brought in for their pounds of silver. I agree with '13'--there is nothing illegal, nor is it bending any rules. It just doesn't sit right that hired guns come in for one year. I find it hard to believe that a program such as Delaware's doesn't have sufficient depth from their underclassmen?? And how does that effect morale with the carpetbagger and those who get displaced? :(

ChickenMan
April 22nd, 2005, 06:38 AM
Delaware's "morale" is just fine... but thanks for caring... ;)

ChickenMan
April 22nd, 2005, 06:40 AM
WHY IS IT WHEN DELAWARE GETS UH TRANSFER.....THE BOARD LIGHTS UP?.....SEVERALAH I-AA's HAVE ANNOUNCED TRANSFER STUDENTS SINCE JANUARY.....BUT WE LAND UH MIAMI LAD.......AN' ALL DUH WRATH O' DUH BOARD COMES DOWN ON NEWARK!.........BRAWK@A-10.GPI/heybuddycanyouspareuhyear!

what 'bout duh new thunder & lightnin' at souther illinois last year?...ya'll had no comment on dat!..........ooooops!.....CAPSLOCK!

and UMass has seven? I think this year. :confused:

Tribe4SF
April 22nd, 2005, 07:07 AM
Northern Iowa had quite an influx this year as well.

bluehenbillk
April 22nd, 2005, 07:43 AM
It's amazing that this topic has got so much attention, this all about a guy who barely saw the field the past 2 years at Miami, however I think he'll be a nice addition to the Hens, considering our OL questions.

colgate13
April 22nd, 2005, 08:38 AM
Mr. Chicken, this isn't about transfers. It's about grad transfers. I'm all for a few transfers each year to drop down from I-A to I-AA. Colgate's had a few and is getting a few more.

Hensrock, this is different than an undergrad scholarship because the student is presumed to be just that, a student. He'll come in under normal admission standards (graduate schools have different requirements), have to establish eligibility, and then will, in theory for I-AA, go to school for 4 years and play. A grad transfer has no reason to go to class, maintain eligiblity, do anything other than play football for a semester. He's a player for hire in my book.

Lehigh Football Nation
April 22nd, 2005, 09:12 AM
Mr. Chicken, this isn't about transfers. It's about grad transfers. I'm all for a few transfers each year to drop down from I-A to I-AA. Colgate's had a few and is getting a few more.

Hensrock, this is different than an undergrad scholarship because the student is presumed to be just that, a student. He'll come in under normal admission standards (graduate schools have different requirements), have to establish eligibility, and then will, in theory for I-AA, go to school for 4 years and play. A grad transfer has no reason to go to class, maintain eligiblity, do anything other than play football for a semester. He's a player for hire in my book.

I'm OK with *some* transfers. I just believe there should be some sort of cap on it, and that you need to prove that you're actually going to class and passing some sort of academic standard. The idea is to give a few talented scholar-athletes the chance to finish their undergrad education (and in rare cases graduate school) - not to become an incubator for the pros.

I don't think Delaware, UMass, Lehigh, or whomever should be taking in 6 transfers to shore up their need areas for the upcoming season. It's not sour grapes. It's principle.

This kid could end up proving me wrong - going to Delaware's MBA program, finishing and becoming a banker or something. But the truth is, he will have played his year of eligibility before any one of us would be able to figure that out. And that's the problem with these graduate-school transfers in particular. There's just no way to know if he's taking advantage of the system without having any intent of completing his grad school education. For other transfers coming in as juniors or sophomores - the goal of getting your undergraduate degree is there for them. For this kid, it's not.

I will say this - if he uses up his eligibility, and then quits grad school, what Delaware has done is no different that schools like Auburn, Alabama, etc. do on a regular basis - put bodies on football uniforms and don't care what happens to them once their eligibility runs out. It's not illegal, but IMHO it is unethical. And when Delaware alumni say that they're somehow better than Auburn, Alabama, or any number of I-A institutions, I'll just have to choose to not believe them. They're just another school who doesn't care about their student-athletes.

ChickenMan
April 22nd, 2005, 09:20 AM
Delaware plays by the rules and takes a very academically qualified transfer and as a result "they (UD) don't care about what happens to them when once their eligibility runs out"...??? Quite a stretch to say the least... :bang:

henfan
April 22nd, 2005, 09:20 AM
While transfers may offend the sensibilities of some and it might even be a interesting topic of discussion to some extent, it really doesn't matter much what any of us think one way or another. The fact remains that nothing UD has done has been against NCAA regulation, as even the opponents have pointed out.

If your schools believe that existing transfer rules offer an unfair playing advantage to some or certain actions violate the intent of the rules, lobby your CEOs and ADs to appeal the NCAA to have this rules changed or modified. If all else fails, perhaps a change in conference or division is in order to more closely align with schools who share your school's institutional missions.

Until then, a lot of people are going to see this discussion for what it really is- a lot of unnecessary pxssing and moaning.

colgate13
April 22nd, 2005, 09:27 AM
Delaware plays by the rules and takes a very academically qualified transfer and as a result "they (UD) don't care about what happens to them when once their eleigibility runs out"...??? Quite a stretch to say the least... :bang:

He's not a transfer. He's a graduate student who got his undergrad from a different school. That's it. It's not about transfers for me.

My beef isn't with UD. It's with the system. Substitute all the names and I have the same feeling:

State U/Private U takes a grad student for the fall semester who has used up 3 years of eligibility at a I-A school. "Grad student" in this case is a term that the cynical (or experienced) of us take with a grain of salt. I'm sure State U/Private U has systems in place for the "grad student" to succeed and they care about his success. But does "grad student" care? Does he even have to be a "grad student"? No. He can suit up, play in 16 games and never go to class and never graduate. Sure, a freshman or any transfer can do that. But then they don't get a college degree and they're not eligible to play anymore.

colgate13
April 22nd, 2005, 09:28 AM
Until then, a lot of people are going to see this discussion for what it really is- a lot of unnecessary pxssing and moaning.

Actually, I see it as very little I-AA topics to talk about in late April!
:D

henfan
April 22nd, 2005, 09:53 AM
For the dozens of mercenaries the UD FB program hasn't matriculated, you'd think their APR would be suffering. Alas, winners of the last three I-AA championships have remarkably similar APRs to our friends from the Lehigh Valley. Either LU's doing something wrong or the others are doing something right. Could be that all involved are doing the right things and the splitting of hairs is totally unnecessary. ;)

Villanova- 988
Colgate- 978
Lehigh- 962
Delaware- 960
James Madison- 960
Western Kentucky- 957
I-AA Avg. (& NCAA cut score)- 925
Montana- 916
Georgia Southern- 873

colgate13
April 22nd, 2005, 09:55 AM
do grad students count towards APR?

Anovafan
April 22nd, 2005, 10:22 AM
For the dozens of mercenaries the UD FB program hasn't matriculated, you'd think their APR would be suffering. Alas, winners of the last three I-AA championships have remarkably similar APRs to our friends from the Lehigh Valley. Either LU's doing something wrong or the others are doing something right. Could be that all involved are doing the right things and the splitting of hairs is totally unnecessary. ;)

Villanova- 988
Colgate- 978
Lehigh- 962
Delaware- 960
James Madison- 960
Western Kentucky- 957
I-AA Avg. (& NCAA cut score)- 925
Montana- 916
Georgia Southern- 873


That is a one year co-hort. Your good friend Shawn Johnson who dropped out his second semester was not included in that number.

henfan
April 22nd, 2005, 11:30 AM
The numbers provided were a snapshot in time (thought that was pretty obvious) and are bound to change slightly from year to year. They're still an illustrative example that VU's, CU's and LU's grad numbers for football players aren't markedly different than UD's, transfers or not.

Say, VUGuy, what's up with Michael Bradley, Nova's one-year UK MBB transfer? Did he ever pick up his undergrad degree from VU? ;)

bluehenbillk
April 22nd, 2005, 11:51 AM
good one henfan, I'm sure Chuck Kornegay, transfer from NC State, never graduated either. I'm hearing a lotta sour grapes from Patriot League fans. Just because their league won't accept grad student transfers. Kinda like the 2 Ivy League fans on this board that complain about being shut out of playoffs.

Lehigh Football Nation
April 22nd, 2005, 12:04 PM
I never said what UD is doing is illegal. I never said I wanted the Patriot League to accept grad school transfers which then drop out after one semester (sour grapes). What I said that there should be rules governing these types of transfers.

I'm not going to praise UD in this case for doing what lots I-A schools do with their athletes - use up their eligibility, and then discard them. Please prove to me that in this kid's case it's different. It's impossible. You can't say they are; you can't say they aren't. Since that's the case, something should be done to change this rule. IMO, of course.

By the way, who the H*** is Chuck Kornegay?

ChickenMan
April 22nd, 2005, 12:08 PM
US News & World Report ranking of top national universities...

UD... #66

Villanova... MIA

:D :p ;)



http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php

colgate13
April 22nd, 2005, 01:11 PM
US News & World Report ranking of top national universities...

UD... #66

Villanova... MIA

:D :p ;)



http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php
I was burnt on this one before by your brethern 89Hen. Nova is #1 regional university and doesn't qualify for the rankings nationally based on some critera. BUT, head to head nova is on par with many top schools on the national rankings.

BTW, no sour grapes here. The rules are what they are now. It's just that some of think they are antithetical to the notion of a student-athlete.

ChickenMan
April 22nd, 2005, 01:16 PM
13... obviously Nova is a fine school... but I just couldn't pass up another chance to take a shot at those "puffed up" pussy cats... :D

GannonFan
April 22nd, 2005, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure it's against the theory of the student athlete, if anything, this is one instance where the student athlete is actually favored by the rules. He gets some mobility and he's able to find a place where he can get a good education paid for by a scholarship. That's one of the main motivations for an undergrad to play and it's no different for a graduate student. As for proving their educational intent, and maybe have a semester to prove their academic interest, why wouldn't you have the same rule for first semester freshmen? They don't need to prove their academic standing or their goal of acheiving a degree to play - why the double standard? If you wanted to be that draconian about it there should be a rule saying that any player, undergrad or grad, is ineligible to play until they've completed a year or a semester.

I just think people make this out to be a serious loophole that tons of guys are using year after year just to play football, maybe even as a way to prove NFL worth. However, you don't see very many people do this (this does require a guy to graduate early or on-time from undergrad and how often is that happening). This Bergman guy, the transfer we are talking about, was a career back-up at Miami and probably won't even start for Delaware so I'm doubting any idea this guy has about going pro. And really, if these guys use this as a way to pay for one year of grad school good for them, like I said, as a student athlete you often don't get any rules in your favor - use it when you can.

colgate13
April 22nd, 2005, 02:35 PM
As for proving their educational intent, and maybe have a semester to prove their academic interest, why wouldn't you have the same rule for first semester freshmen? They don't need to prove their academic standing or their goal of acheiving a degree to play - why the double standard?
Because most freshman aren't going to be difference makers. Sure, there are some unique ones out there, but I have to go back to Ryan Vena in 1996 to remember a true freshman making a difference for a Colgate team.

In theory, an athlete with 4 years of Division I-A athletic experience might bring more to the table than an 18 year old fresh out of high school.

89Hen
April 22nd, 2005, 02:45 PM
Because most freshman aren't going to be difference makers. Sure, there are some unique ones out there, but I have to go back to Ryan Vena in 1996 to remember a true freshman making a difference for a Colgate team.

I'm not sure whether true or redshirt, but off the top of my head...

Ricky Santos - QB UNH
Tony Lezotte - CB JMU
Ron Whitcomb - QB Maine
Omar Cuff - RB Delaware
Dave Corley - QB W&M

Sure these guys are the exceptions, but many one year transfers aren't difference makers either.

henfan
April 22nd, 2005, 02:52 PM
It occured to me that we're probably not the best ones to make value judgements about the educational/vocational intentions of student-athletes, even in a general way.

Doc QB
April 22nd, 2005, 03:48 PM
I worked a summer HS football camp with KC Keeler in the early 90's when he was top dog at Glassboro State/Rowan and I was playing at LU. After the camp completed, I drove him back to the Lehigh Valley for another camp (his wife's family lives near LU, he needed a lift). During that car ride we talked all things football, and he said to me," I am not really an offensive mind, I am a recruiter. When the season ends, I look at where all these Jersey I-A studs from the previous years ended up, ask their old high school coach how they are doing. If they are unhappy, I find a way to let them know they have a place on my team."

His successful teams at Rowan read like a pro-bowl roster of former Jersey HS all-staters, transferred from some big D-I factory where they could not crack the two deep roster.

This is no BS. So do you really think UD's IMPACT transfers are really a matter of student-athletes finding them? No way. KC is a great guy, good coach, excellent motivator, and even better recruiter. He is playing by the rules, by MAY exploit them to some degree. PL fellows (of which I am one) should not cry sour grapes, because players will take the full ticket ride versus what their parents W-2 says PL schools can give them to play. If they could admit them, PL would just not get these guys anyway.

And above all else, winning is a great deodorant, and players who want to win will go to UD (transfers and HS prospects). But to think they just happen to luckily consider Newark is absurd.

GannonFan
April 22nd, 2005, 03:56 PM
I worked a summer HS football camp with KC Keeler in the early 90's when he was top dog at Glassboro State/Rowan and I was playing at LU. After the camp completed, I drove him back to the Lehigh Valley for another camp (his wife's family lives near LU, he needed a lift). During that car ride we talked all things football, and he said to me," I am not really an offensive mind, I am a recruiter. When the season ends, I look at where all these Jersey I-A studs from the previous years ended up, ask their old high school coach how they are doing. If they are unhappy, I find a way to let them know they have a place on my team."

His successful teams at Rowan read like a pro-bowl roster of former Jersey HS all-staters, transferred from some big D-I factory where they could not crack the two deep roster.

This is no BS. So do you really think UD's IMPACT transfers are really a matter of student-athletes finding them? No way. KC is a great guy, good coach, excellent motivator, and even better recruiter. He is playing by the rules, by MAY exploit them to some degree. PL fellows (of which I am one) should not cry sour grapes, because players will take the full ticket ride versus what their parents W-2 says PL schools can give them to play. If they could admit them, PL would just not get these guys anyway.

And above all else, winning is a great deodorant, and players who want to win will go to UD (transfers and HS prospects). But to think they just happen to luckily consider Newark is absurd.

First of all, people always bring up KC's ability to bring tranfers in to Rowan by the droves as a knock on the type of program he runs. Fact is, it's almost (not completely) impossible to compete nationally in DIII without bringing in higher level transfers - it's just the nature of the beast in DIII. Take a look at powerhouse Mt Union and it becomes pretty clear. And second, I don't think (unless I missed it somewhere and my apologies then) that people think or said that any player, be they transfer or freshman, just stumble across a school, in this case Delaware. Of course there is an informal network of coaches (high school and college) that talk back and forth about players. This happens everywhere, even in the Patriot League.

Doc QB
April 22nd, 2005, 04:00 PM
My post was not meant to anger UD posters here...merely an anecdote that shows how KC builds teams and how he is not bashful about it. I like him and think he is a good guy. Just thought you all would appreciate the story.

bluehenbillk
April 22nd, 2005, 04:29 PM
Well said Doc QB. Sounds right on the money.

ngineer
April 22nd, 2005, 11:04 PM
US News & World Report ranking of top national universities...

UD... #66

Villanova... MIA

:D :p ;)



http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php

Lehigh #37 :p ;)

JMU2004
April 22nd, 2005, 11:26 PM
Villanova has the same problem that JMU does.....we are ranked as regional universities b/c we are most undergrad. We are both ranked #1 in our categories.


JMU would be in between UD and VT.....VU somewhat higher I guess.

Delaware Ghostrider II
April 23rd, 2005, 08:44 AM
I say bring himon.....lets see some of that 'Cane experiance at work for UD. :)