[Split to new thread] Black College Football doesn't need the FCS

[R.A.]

[Note: This post was split from another thread to start this thread BY THE BOARD ADMINISTRATORS--NOT R.A.]
The Cult of I-AA: We're Stuck Here Now, My Flock
By Scott Garner
As sports fans grow more sick and tired of the antiquated Bowl system, I-AA would be improving by leaps and bounds over the four-year period. ...
http://instituteofhigherthinking.blogspot.com/2007/08/cult-of-i-aa-were-stuck-here-now-my.htmlHaving read Lainer's piece, allow me to say this.

HBCU Football, has always known... that the FCS needs us more than we need it. The SWAC has shown the FCS this.

So, it would have been great if the FCS was more inclusive to its HBCU Conferences, and made a way for HBCUs to play traditionally rich games such as the Bayou Classic and the Turkey Day Classic, while still allowing us to compete for a National Title... but that wasn't the case. The FCS wouldnt allow that.

You look at Grambling... Grambling's an Icon. What do they need with the FCS??? As if Grambling would somehow fall into obscurity if they didn't compete for a NCAA National Title... HBCUs made our football names during a time when we weren't allowed to compete for a National Title with the rest, so it's not like we need to play with everyone else... we're used to not being able to anyway.

We have and will continue to surpass regardless.

So, now seeing such articles like this one which suggest that the best way for the FCS to continue to compete in the future with the FBS, is to find means to accommodate the tradition rich SWAC... is comical.

People, the FCS has had 40 plus years to be inclusive to us. But only now when threatened financially by the FBS do articles pop up like this. HA!

-This "Pause" on moving up, does not bother us. We still have our big classic, all of our institutions that are capable of moving up divisions are already in the process of doing so, and the others that want to move up will be more than prepared to do so, no matter what rules or when this "Pause" is lifted.

Heck, some of the FCS schools still won't even play our schools on a regular basis... I found it quite funny that some upstart programs seem to have little trouble with out of conference regional scheduling while some MEAC schools have to go down south and to the midwest to find teams to play us... when the one right in their states won't.

--One thing you can count on, with the SWAC especially, money rules the day. If the FCS can't provide enough evidence that competing in the playoffs is more financially viable then the 30,000plus and growing SWAC Championship game... no way they give that up for the FCS Playoffs. They have everything they need without the Playoffs... Tradition, history, exposure, BCF National Title potential, etc...

Black College Football doesn't need the FCS.

If you want a perfect example... just look at what Tavarius Jackson embodies. He never played in the NCAA Playoffs... but he did play in the Turkey Dya Classic and in the SWAC Championship game. And he does have a BCF National Title... now look at him. Starting for the Vikings at Quarterback... go figure.

[bosshogg]

The SWAC can do what they want to do.....SCState wants to be apart of FCS football.......we can be an HBCU and not isolate ourselves from the rest of the world........

The sad part is, that if this article was written in the reverse, and FCS football was talking about how it didn't need HBCU's, there would be a riot.

SCState wants to show that not only are we a good HBCU team, but we are a good team PERIOD....


The day that the MEAC takes this stance will be the day SCSU leaves....personally, I hope we leave anyway..

[UNHWildCats]

So, it would have been great if the FCS was more inclusive to its HBCU Conferences, and made a way for HBCUs to play traditionally rich games such as the Bayou Classic and the Turkey Day Classic, while still allowing us to compete for a National Title... but that wasn't the case. The FCS wouldnt allow that.

So what the other 110 or so FCS teams should halt their season and delay the playoffs because a few teams from a conference prefer to play other games?

You say the FCS needs these schools? How so... if the FCS needed them they would have altered the playoff schedule so they could be included.

[TexasTerror]

Not sure how FCS needs the SWAC...

The SWAC from a competitive standpoint against other FCS foes has really dropped dramatically in recent years.

The MEAC is much different as they've shown they can be competitive and are increasingly so in the last few years despite their playoff shortcomings in recent years.

Perhaps with the drop of the nine-game mandate, the SWAC schools can play better competition (nope, I don't mean HBCU schools that are Div IIs and HBCUs though as we saw with Southern and PVA&M -- if they would've finished their game -- that these schools can cause problems) and improve their play by playing said competition.

[R.A.]

So what the other 110 or so FCS teams should halt their season and delay the playoffs because a few teams from a conference prefer to play other games?

Who predates who? I ask this because its not as if the FCS could not have made their rules supportive of HBCU rivalry games originally... since these HBCU rivalry games were established and running long before the FCS.

It is as almost if such rules by the FCS, were set up in direct confrontation with the already established games of the SWAC, knowing that they would not be inclusive to begin with...

Why not figure out a way to include Alabama State from the very beginning of the FCS, since their Turkey Day Classic Game with Tuskegee predates the FCS???

Make sense too me.



You say the FCS needs these schools? How so... if the FCS needed them they would have altered the playoff schedule so they could be included.

The article which I read suggests that including all the FCS HBCUs in the FCS postseason, would help the FCS compete with the major FBS postseason games in the future. The blogger suggests that it is necessary for this to happen or in the future the FCS Postseason will garner little attention, possibly making FCS competition in a sense... worthless.

[TexasTerror]

The article which I read suggests that including all the FCS HBCUs in the FCS postseason, would help the FCS compete with the major FBS postseason games in the future. The blogger suggests that it is necessary for this to happen or in the future the FCS Postseason will garner little attention, possibly making FCS competition in a sense... worthless.

If we move to "include" the SWAC, it means the playoffs would have to be scooted back. I think that the SWAC does not necessarily mean that the postseason will get "better", but allows for it to be pushed back as I think having the Division I playoffs later is the goal -- putting it in the midst of bowl season -- instead of finishing while no one is paying attention to college football, as in prior to the bowl season as done now.

[UNHWildCats]

why should 110 or so schools alter how the season plays out just to allow a handful of schools to do there own thing.

[R.A.]

If we move to "include" the SWAC, it means the playoffs would have to be scooted back. I think that the SWAC does not necessarily mean that the postseason will get "better"

...right, because no one would watch Grambling in the Playoffs xlolx xrolleyesx

...Yeah, the FCS Playoffs WOULD be better.

[R.A.]

why should 110 or so schools alter how the season plays out just to allow a handful of schools to do there own thing.

Why wouldn't the FCS make rules to include all of the FCS schools initially, especially since the traditions of some of the schools, predate the FCS?

[FormerPokeCenter]

Why wouldn't the FCS make rules to include all of the FCS schools initially, especially since the traditions of some of the schools, predate the FCS?

Grambling participated in the I-AA playoffs for a few years, making an early exit each time....

Even if you moved the playoffs back to accomodate the Bayou Classic, there would still be the the SWAC Championship game to be played after that, and then the Mythical Black College National Championship the following week....

Unless either Southern or Grambling were the top seed in the SWAC, the SWAC could theoretically still send a representative to the playoffs....however, since the SWAC championship isn't held until after the Bayou Classic, that wouldn't work.

And, the belated SWAC Championships doesn't predate the I-AA playoffs. That's a rather recent addition to their normal skein.

[youwouldno]

The FCS doesn't need the SWAC at all. We know that because the SWAC used to participate in the playoffs and doesn't anymore. I don't see the problem. The MEAC participates but I see no irreplaceable contribution there either.

I think they should participate but the FCS certainly doesn't "need" HBCUs.

[R.A.]

I'm familiar with every single point you mentioned. Allow me the chance to respond.


Grambling participated in the I-AA playoffs for a few years, making an early exit each time....

Probably one of the top ten games in Boise State history... they beat Grambling 14-13 I believe in the last few minutes. And it brought major attention to Boise State.


Even if you moved the playoffs back to accomodate the Bayou Classic, there would still be the the SWAC Championship game to be played after that, and then the Mythical Black College National Championship the following week....

The SWAC Championship game doesn't predate the FCS. I was specifically referring to the traditional SWAC games that do, that also are in conflict with FCS rules, although you are right in that the SWAC Championship game is another game preventing the SWAC from being completely included in the FCS Playoffs.

Also, The Black College National Championship is not a game currently being played.


Unless either Southern or Grambling were the top seed in the SWAC, the SWAC could theoretically still send a representative to the playoffs....however, since the SWAC championship isn't held until after the Bayou Classic, that wouldn't work.


This isn't exactly complete. Southern, Grambling, Alabama State, and the Two SWAC Schools participating in the SWAC Title game are all the SWAC Schools that cannot receive an At- Large bid into the FCS Playoffs.

So for example, like last year-- half the SWAC were illegible for the FCS playoffs.

[TexasTerror]

...right, because no one would watch Grambling in the Playoffs xlolx xrolleyesx

The quality of play would have to improve from the G-Men before anyone decided to watch their football product on the field -- the SWAC's inability to win on the playing field come playoff time would more than likely continue at current rate.

The name can only go so far. How well does the Bayou Classic draw on a major network? That is just as much an 'event' as it is a football game -- though I'll be honest, I do want to be there. And keep in mind, the NCAA has special restrictions on halftime and bands during the playoffs...

[JohnStOnge]

I think mainstream FCS would be benefit more from SWAC participation in the playoffs than the SWAC would benefit from particpation in the tournament. I also think particpation by the Ivy League would benefit the FCS tournament. In fact I think participation by the Ivy League would benefit it more because the names are very recognizable and those schools have influencial, affluent (on average, at least that's my belief) alumni.

But the SWAC would help. I do think the SWAC has a bigger fan base, overall, than any other FCS league. I think it's got kind of a "subway alumni" thing going. And I think Grambling does have a name that's more recognizable than any other FCS school outside of the Ivy.

[ElonPride]

The HBCU's NOT participating in the playoffs should take a cue from the MEAC.

Schools like A&T play their rivarly/classic games EVERY YEAR!!! They still get their big money games and still find it fairly easy to participate in the playoffs. Heck, even newly risen FCS schools will still do the same (NCCU & WSSU). The arguments about the FCS needing the SWAC teams seems a tad hollow. xnodx

The SC State's fans comments are mirrored here. If the MEAC decided to pull from the playoffs, I hope their ADs would be reasonable enough to either move to Indy status or find a home in a new conference so they can participate.

Truth be known, is the SWAC a little ticked that the FCS/I-AA Playoff has pretty much grown without 'em and that conferences like the MEAC are flourishing WITH their classic games AND a shot at the NC?

[Sir William]

You look at Grambling... Grambling's an Icon. What do they need with the FCS??? As if Grambling would somehow fall into obscurity if they didn't compete for a NCAA National Title...

...we will have to thrive, without the FCS Playoffs.

Unfortunately for Grambling, they have never fared well when they've made the playoffs (take a look at the I-AA playoff record books). I'm pretty sure they have never made it out of the first round. The fact of the matter is that Jackson State has qualified for and participated in the I-AA playoffs 2-3 times the number that Grambling has.

Does the FCS need Grambling and the SWAC more than Grambling or the SWAC need the FCS? It's a moot point, to be honest. What seems to be the undeniable reality is that Jackson State is the actual ICON of the SWAC.

[TexasTerror]

SWAC is 0-18 or 0-19 as far as Division I playoffs go and I think the quality of FCS teams have gone up a good deal since the SWAC last appeared...

They would need to improve their on the field product dramatically (based on results against fellow FCS competition in recent years -- which even a loyal SWAC fan could not deny) if they wanted any chance to do well in the Division I playoffs...

The issue is not about the SWAC vs FCS, but more about what the SWAC gives to FCS in terms of improving the playoffs. I guess it's all related especially if the SWAC would be one and done on a regular basis. Would they really add anything if they can't get out of the first round?

[GannonFan]

Didn't the Bayou Classic used to be played the weekend before Thanksgiving, now the last weekend before the playoffs, as opposed to its current position of being played the weekend after Thanksgiving? I thought the change came sometime in the mid 70's since Grambling did used to participate in the NCAA playoffs (DII at the time) until that scheduling change.

Regardless, I don't think FCS or the SWAC need the other one - both do quite fine without being too involved with the other. I think both would stand to gain from being more entwined, but that's not going to happen anytime in the near future so why bother to debate it. The SWAC isn't going anywhere and the FCS isn't going anywhere - life goes on.

[FCS Go!]

First- Garner's "article" is from a blog. It's one man's opinion and will likely influence no one with any power or influence over FCS or HBCU football. I wouldn't hold it up as representing any prevalent opinion, even among us run-of-the-mill fans.

I'd agree with R.A. that HBCU football doesn't need FCS. HBCU has it's own independent tradition that functions well outside of any Div I framework. I don't see that there is anyone to blame for the SWAC not participating in the FCS playoff system. It is just a different set of priorities and traditions. The SWAC schools have an important history and their marquee events garner as much national attention as the FCS playoffs. The FCSplayoff and SWAC systems seem to have developed separately and been integrated only in terms of scholarships and other basics of I-AA/FCS classifications. For most HBCU fans I've talked to, the playoffs are an afterthought or just not important.

I would love to have SWAC teams in the playoffs (much more than Ivy schools). A Montana-Grambling game would be awesome (in Missoula only please xsmiley_wix ). I think any playoff school would love to play a nationally known HBCU icon like Southern or Grambling, even during the regular season. These kind of matchups will probably continue to be rare because they are usually not in the (financial) interests of either team. Grambling can get just about anyone to play them so why play McNeese when you can play Pitt or Houston or Wash St?

[HIU 93]

The quality of play would have to improve from the G-Men before anyone decided to watch their football product on the field -- the SWAC's inability to win on the playing field come playoff time would more than likely continue at current rate.


So, how do you explain the fact that the Bayou Classic, in direct competition with the FCS Playoffs, earns higher TV ratings than the first round playoff games? How do you explain that it averages 75K in attendance (minus the Katrina years)?

Let's be realistic. If you speak to casual fans of college football that have no intimate knowledge of FCS, and give them three names of schools- Grambling, Lehigh, and Portland State (off the thop of my head)- I can guarantee that 90% plus would associate Grambling with college football more than either of the other two. The casual fan knows Grambling. They have known Grambling becasue the legend of Grambling and Coach Rob is definitely "iconic".

The FCS needs all FCS schools in the playoffs. Grambling and Southern make so much money from the Bayou that there is no financial benefit to them in changin the timing of the game.

[HIU 93]

First- Garner's "article" is from a blog. It's one man's opinion and will likely influence no one with any power or influence over FCS or HBCU football. I wouldn't hold it up as representing any prevalent opinion, even among us run-of-the-mill fans.

I'd agree with R.A. that HBCU football doesn't need FCS. HBCU has it's own independent tradition that functions well outside of any Div I framework. I don't see that there is anyone to blame for the SWAC not participating in the FCS playoff system. It is just a different set of priorities and traditions. The SWAC schools have an important history and their marquee events garner as much national attention as the FCS playoffs. The FCSplayoff and SWAC systems seem to have developed separately and been integrated only in terms of scholarships and other basics of I-AA/FCS classifications. For most HBCU fans I've talked to, the playoffs are an afterthought or just not important.

I would love to have SWAC teams in the playoffs (much more than Ivy schools). A Montana-Grambling game would be awesome (in Missoula only please xsmiley_wix ). I think any playoff school would love to play a nationally known HBCU icon like Southern or Grambling, even during the regular season. These kind of matchups will probably continue to be rare because they are usually not in the (financial) interests of either team. Grambling can get just about anyone to play them so why play McNeese when you can play Pitt or Houston or Wash St?

All great points.

[TexasTerror]

So, how do you explain the fact that the Bayou Classic, in direct competition with the FCS Playoffs, earns higher TV ratings than the first round playoff games? How do you explain that it averages 75K in attendance (minus the Katrina years)?

It averages 75k because of the significance and the fact it is a huge event. Higher ratings because it is on network television. What were the ratings this past year anyway? I honestly feel people watch the game more for the 'event' than the game itself as people I work with even tell me the quality of football is not up to par with what they like watching, but watch because it is important to this region as an event -- same reason I watch Texas vs A&M yearly despite not caring either way, just a neat rivalry that means a lot to people in Texas, my home.


Let's be realistic. If you speak to casual fans of college football that have no intimate knowledge of FCS, and give them three names of schools- Grambling, Lehigh, and Portland State (off the thop of my head)- I can guarantee that 90% plus would associate Grambling with college football more than either of the other two. The casual fan knows Grambling. They have known Grambling becasue the legend of Grambling and Coach Rob is definitely "iconic".

The FCS needs all FCS schools in the playoffs. Grambling and Southern make so much money from the Bayou that there is no financial benefit to them in changin the timing of the game.

Of course, Grambling and Southern have more name recognition -- still does not answer the feasibility of having teams like them in the playoffs if they are going to be one and done every year. I do not know how important it would be to have them in the playoffs to build off their name recognition if they'd just have one game (who is to say it would be televised in the first place) and that's the end of that...?

[DFW HOYA]

Grambling and Southern have national name recognition, but a lot of teams in the SWAC do not---there is no subway alumni for TSU or AA&M, for example.

There was a post a few days back that made an interesting point about the Division I moratorium; namely, that new I-A conferences would tip the balance to non-BCS conferences. I think there is potential down the road for a I-A HBCU conference, but at the expense of tearing apart certain MEAC and SWAC rivalries which schools aren't prepared at this time to do.

Would there be a time when Grambling is regularly playing Howard and Hampton instead of Prairie View and MVSU? Maybe not, but who saw the day Boston College would be playing Clemson and Florida State every year?

[Punchykky]

The SWAC can do what they want to do.....SCState wants to be apart of FCS football.......we can be an HBCU and not isolate ourselves from the rest of the world........

The sad part is, that if this article was written in the reverse, and FCS football was talking about how it didn't need HBCU's, there would be a riot.

SCState wants to show that not only are we a good HBCU team, but we are a good team PERIOD....


The day that the MEAC takes this stance will be the day SCSU leaves....personally, I hope we leave anyway..

Norfolk State wants to be a part of FCS football as well. If SCSU leaves the MEAC, well,,,,goodbye and good luck as well. The MEAC will be just fine!xthumbsupx
I'm looking forward to the day when the MEAC can and will put 2 to 3 teams in the playoffs, regularly. I think that day is coming up real quick. Meanwhile, let me get back to my xcoffeex !xlolx xnodx

[CID1990]

The SWAC can do what they want to do.....SCState wants to be apart of FCS football.......we can be an HBCU and not isolate ourselves from the rest of the world........

The sad part is, that if this article was written in the reverse, and FCS football was talking about how it didn't need HBCU's, there would be a riot.

SCState wants to show that not only are we a good HBCU team, but we are a good team PERIOD....


The day that the MEAC takes this stance will be the day SCSU leaves....personally, I hope we leave anyway..

You guys go ahead and make that move and the SoCon would be glad to have you. Contrary to what R.A. has written, there have always been SoCon fans who think you guys and NC A&T should be in our conference, anyway.

[BBB]

Grambling participated in the I-AA playoffs for a few years, making an early exit each time....

Even if you moved the playoffs back to accomodate the Bayou Classic, there would still be the the SWAC Championship game to be played after that, and then the Mythical Black College National Championship the following week....

Unless either Southern or Grambling were the top seed in the SWAC, the SWAC could theoretically still send a representative to the playoffs....however, since the SWAC championship isn't held until after the Bayou Classic, that wouldn't work.

And, the belated SWAC Championships doesn't predate the I-AA playoffs. That's a rather recent addition to their normal skein.

There is no game that decides the "mythical" Black College National Championship.

He wasn't talking about the SWAC Title game.

[Cap'n Cat]

SWAC Football:


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/3/3880442_f1353db4de.jpg





xcoffeex

[AZGrizFan]

...right, because no one would watch Grambling in the Playoffs xlolx xrolleyesx

...Yeah, the FCS Playoffs WOULD be better.

Yeah, people around the water cooler at work are CLAMORING about Grambling, and pissed as hell because the playoffs don't include them.

The overinflated sense of self-worth of SWAC schools never ceases to amaze me. You are all like a bunch of little Notre Dames. "We're special, and we have 'tradition', so if YOU want US, you'll have to F-up the schedules of EVERYBODY else....we ain't changin' for *****!"

You fellas need to put down the koolaid, realize there ain't nothing special about you, and play by the same rules as everybody else. Either that, or form/play for your OWN national championship. You know, that mythical one that could pit the top two teams of the HBCU Poll! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[813Jag]

That 0-19 of the SWAC isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The championship game will always keep the SWAC out of the playoffs anyway. Without that game 7 teams out of 10 would be eligble. Would any of them deserve a bid at this time? Who knows. I think some teams, especially Jackson State are beefing up there schedules for next year.

There are some shots being taken at the SWAC in this topic, but nobody from the SWAC has posted anything here. R.A. is a MEAC fan, I know some of you could care less about HBCU football (SWAC in particular) but for the sake of accuracy, throwing stones at us for this conversation is unneccesary.

[TexasTerror]

That 0-19 of the SWAC isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The championship game will always keep the SWAC out of the playoffs anyway. Without that game 7 teams out of 10 would be eligble. Would any of them deserve a bid at this time? Who knows. I think some teams, especially Jackson State are beefing up there schedules for next year.

Traveling to two SLC institutions as Jackson State is doing may do the trick...xnodx

They may be able to beat SELA, but I believe NWST is going to be a tough obstacle to overcome for the Tigers...

[Eyes of Old Main]

While I admittedly know little specifically about HBCU football historically, I do understand and appreciate the place they represent both currently, and especially in the past. Great players, teams and coaches have played HBCU football, both in the SWAC and MEAC.

That being said, I applaud the MEAC for playing a more FCS centered OOC schedule and for participating in the playoffs. They haven't fared too well recently, but I think their results will improve as I think their on the field quality has and will continue to improve.

As for the SWAC, I think their best days are behind them. I do not see them strengthening and I feel like their reluctance to play as many OOC games again FCS playoff conference teams and participate in the playoffs is more to protect their image and avoid being beaten regularly. Maybe I'm off on that, but that's my take.

I realize that past history and tradition is very important, and any true fan is proud of their schools accomplishments, both recent and further back, but hanging onto the past for too long isn't productive. Grambling undoubtably was an icon under Coach Robinson, but not so today. I'd have to say that title within HBCU football would have to go to Hampton or SC State right now.

That's not a swipe at Grambling, just a win-loss reality. But, then again, everything is cyclical and Grambling might be back on top soon. If that happens, I just hope that the SWAC has collectively decided that inclusion, not exclusion, is in their best interest.

[UNHWildCats]

I would suspect that the attendance and ratings have a lot to do with some pretty ****ing awesome bands performing at halftime....

[RadMann]

I don't think the quality of football played in that conference relative to the rest of the FCS at this time, or for the past decade makes their lack of participation really matter in terms of the playoff results. In terms of interest in the playoffs, some of the SWAC schools do have substantial fan bases, but that seems to be especially important for attendance for their big rivalry games. I doubt they would draw more in FCS playoff games than the average program does. The SWAC and the playoffs is a non-issue as far as I see it. As noted by another poster, I think the Ivies would be a bigger prize at this time. All that said, the more conferences that participate, the better.....

[ngineer]

Who predates who? I ask this because its not as if the FCS could not have made their rules supportive of HBCU rivalry games originally... since these HBCU rivalry games were established and running long before the FCS.
It is as almost if such rules by the FCS, were set up in direct confrontation with the already established games of the SWAC, knowing that they would not be inclusive to begin with...

Why not figure out a way to include Alabama State from the very beginning of the FCS, since their Turkey Day Classic Game with Tuskegee predates the FCS???

Make sense too me.



The article which I read suggests that including all the FCS HBCUs in the FCS postseason, would help the FCS compete with the major FBS postseason games in the future. The blogger suggests that it is necessary for this to happen or in the future the FCS Postseason will garner little attention, possibly making FCS competition in a sense... worthless.

Yes, the HBCU's games were established long before the FCS/I-AA, which began around 1979. I love watching some of these great rivalry games, but why must they be played so late? Seems to me they'd be the draw they are regardless of date played. I think the FCS would love these schools to participate in the playoffs (just like they'd love the Ivy League to participate as well). It's the conferences that have chosen to keep their distance from what I've seen.

[AZGrizFan]

That 0-19 of the SWAC isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The championship game will always keep the SWAC out of the playoffs anyway. Without that game 7 teams out of 10 would be eligble. Would any of them deserve a bid at this time? Who knows. I think some teams, especially Jackson State are beefing up there schedules for next year.

There are some shots being taken at the SWAC in this topic, but nobody from the SWAC has posted anything here. R.A. is a MEAC fan, I know some of you could care less about HBCU football (SWAC in particular) but for the sake of accuracy, throwing stones at us for this conversation is unneccesary.

sorry Jag, but it's the perceived arrogance that the FCS NEEDS the HBCU's, and the whole world is clamoring for their inclusion into the playoffs. Just ain't so. If they wanna play, they know what they need to do. Period.

I love watching them play as much as the next guy, but I certainly don't think the FCS playoffs are some kind of substandard product because we don't include SWAC teams.

[Punchykky]

SWAC Football:


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/3/3880442_f1353db4de.jpg





xcoffeex


xrolleyesx SWAC football is not THAT bad.xlolx

[HIU 93]

Yeah, people around the water cooler at work are CLAMORING about Grambling, and pissed as hell because the playoffs don't include them.

The overinflated sense of self-worth of SWAC schools never ceases to amaze me. You are all like a bunch of little Notre Dames. "We're special, and we have 'tradition', so if YOU want US, you'll have to F-up the schedules of EVERYBODY else....we ain't changin' for *****!"

You fellas need to put down the koolaid, realize there ain't nothing special about you, and play by the same rules as everybody else. Either that, or form/play for your OWN national championship. You know, that mythical one that could pit the top two teams of the HBCU Poll! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Your vitriol on this topic is not needed. No one is at the water cooler clamoring about FCS football at all. We should all realize that. We are true FCS fans. The rest of the world doesn't even know we field teams. HBCUs don't "need" FCS. FCS doesn't "need" HBCUs either. FCS would continue to lose money without HBCUs, and HBCUs would continue to do what we do without FCS.

[Menudo]

Yes, the HBCU's games were established long before the FCS/I-AA, which began around 1979. I love watching some of these great rivalry games, but why must they be played so late? Seems to me they'd be the draw they are regardless of date played. I think the FCS would love these schools to participate in the playoffs (just like they'd love the Ivy League to participate as well). It's the conferences that have chosen to keep their distance from what I've seen.

We sometimes you play your biggest competition toward the end of the season. Although in the case of Hampton. We always begin with Howard and BCU is always near the end.

[SU Jag]

I would like to see FCS get the media attention that it deserves and I'm a fan of FCS. HBCUs could thrive without FCS but is that the best thing? I dont think so! I think that the SWAC/MEAC bring something to FCS that sets it above the so called "big time". Realistically a HBCU National Title Game would more than double the size of the FCS Championship game but I personally dont want to see it go down that road. FCS fans across the country light up inside when they see a HBCU on their schedule. It gives them a chance to see a different type of atmoshpere with the pagentry, the bands, tailgating, and the fans. FCS is aware of how important HBCUs are, look at how the OVC works around the conference schedule around TSU.

[AZGrizFan]

Your vitriol on this topic is not needed. No one is at the water cooler clamoring about FCS football at all. We should all realize that. We are true FCS fans. The rest of the world doesn't even know we field teams. HBCUs don't "need" FCS. FCS doesn't "need" HBCUs either. FCS would continue to lose money without HBCUs, and HBCUs would continue to do what we do without FCS.

Thank you for making my point crystal clear regarding the overinflated sense of self worth that is prevalent among HBCU teams/institutions.

And, 93, are you SURE the rest of your compatriots believe as you do? Reread R.A.'s comments, and you might not be so sure....xpeacex

[HIU 93]

Thank you for making my point crystal clear regarding the overinflated sense of self worth that is prevalent among HBCU teams/institutions.

And, 93, are you SURE the rest of your compatriots believe as you do? Reread R.A.'s comments, and you might not be so sure....xpeacex

There you go putting us all into thesame think tank again. RA is a man, an intelligent man who graduated from an excellent school. He can make up his own mind, and I can make up mine. We might not agree sometimes, sometimes we might agree. That's the way things work. This group think, group speak thing is getting old.

[wannabegaucho]

Just curious:

Since it seems like fans of the SWAC and MEAC want in the playoffs (ok with me), what is their opinion about a Pioneer League team?

[HIU 93]

Just curious:

Since it seems like fans of the SWAC and MEAC want in the playoffs (ok with me), what is their opinion about a Pioneer League team?

Gaucho-

The MEAC is in the playoffs. The first NCAA Div. I-AA (FCS) National Champion was Florida A&M University, a team which currently competes in the MEAC.

[TexasTerror]

Realistically a HBCU National Title Game would more than double the size of the FCS Championship game but I personally dont want to see it go down that road.

Your talking about mythical national titles again.

Even a HBCU National Title game, if featuring MEAC vs SWAC would be mythical because of the deep roots the HBCU 'National Title' has had with sub-Div I teams like Tuskegee winning it (as recent as 2000). You going to throw them out to dry?

Central State had a nice little five year run of their own in the late 80s. Why not allow them to compete?

[bosshogg]

This whole discussion is kinda crazy.....

It is clear by the moves that SCState, Hampton, and Del State have been making as far as schedules, recruiting, and facility upgrades, that they have a different agenda than a lof of HBCU football teams. It is obvious which schools are satisfied playing for "Black College" Championships, and which schools want to play for NCAA championships.

I have said, and say again now, that those schools, and maybe a few others, should leave the MEAC and join conferences that are more progressive. Just because SCState is in another conference doesn't mean that they are no longer an HBCU. Tenn St. is an HBCU....yet they are not in an all HBCU conference.

If the Big South Conference came out and said, "We don't want SCState, because it is an HBCU" there would be an uproar.....So why would SCState or any other HBCU say, "we don't want any other conference, because they have schools that are NOT HBCU's"

racism works both ways.

If the MEAC is the best conference for SCState based on a sound set of criteria, then they should stay there.....

If it is not, then they should look to move....

Being an all HBCU conference is not criteria

I think that as time moves on, and some of the old school moves out of leadership and new blood moves in, that a lot of things will change....some for the worse, but most for the better.......

[813Jag]

Traveling to two SLC institutions as Jackson State is doing may do the trick...xnodx

They may be able to beat SELA, but I believe NWST is going to be a tough obstacle to overcome for the Tigers...
Northwestern will be a tough game, but this season will show if the Tigers will be up to the challenge. They're putting themselves back together after the Bell years. A good Grambling and a good Jackson State really helps the SWAC. I also think Alabama A&M is putting together a good program. The week one OOC games are the measuring stick for the SWAC this year.

[R.A.]

You guys go ahead and make that move and the SoCon would be glad to have you. Contrary to what R.A. has written, there have always been SoCon fans who think you guys and NC A&T should be in our conference, anyway.

Can the CAA say the same thing? Can Delaware?

[R.A.]

Thank you for making my point crystal clear regarding the overinflated sense of self worth that is prevalent among HBCU teams/institutions.

And, 93, are you SURE the rest of your compatriots believe as you do? Reread R.A.'s comments, and you might not be so sure....xpeacex

93 is saying exactly what I am say.
FCS would continue to lose money without HBCUs,
Which is why the inital blogger suggests fully including all FCS HBCUs, because the FCS loses major money, attention, and relevance without us.


and HBCUs would continue to do what we do without FCS.
And regardless of whether we're in the FCS or not... we're going to be fine financially as our history suggests.

[R.A.]

My major points are this if I have managed to confuse everyone.

1.)Why lobby for complete HBCU inclusion now that the FCS is possibly being threatened by the FBS? Why only now, when the FCS has had 40 years plus to do this?

The reason is money. If it wasn't a money thing, no one would care except US/HBCU supporters.

2.)If during this observation period, NCAA guidelines and rulings regress and become even more stringent on HBCUs that want participate in the FCS Division fully, whether already in this Division or attempting to move up into this division ... then serious discussions will arise regarding whether we should continue in the FCS.

3.)And if necessary, we are fully capable of prospering outside of the FCS.

Furthermore...

4.) Why is it that when the FCS was being developed 40 plus years ago, that such rules were not set up so that the FCS HBCUs could INITIALLY be fully included ... from the start, why were there rules set up against certain HBCU traditions?

5.)Why should HBCUs alter our traditions, when our traditions predate the FCS?

Nevertheless...

6.)I am still a proud MEAC Fan and I remain supportive of the FCS Playoffs...

7.) ... until I find that through future FCS rules and regulations that participating in the FCS becomes even more hurtful to HBCUs.

8.)I'm not advocating FCS separation, I'm advocating complete inclusion for Alabama State, Grambling, Southern, and possiblythe two teams participating in the SWAC Championship game.

[HIU 93]

This whole discussion is kinda crazy.....

It is clear by the moves that SCState, Hampton, and Del State have been making as far as schedules, recruiting, and facility upgrades, that they have a different agenda than a lof of HBCU football teams.


We at Hampton have a different agenda than a lot of schools, HBCU or otherwise. We are trying to be the best university that we can possibility be. That is why we are doing the things we are doing- football is secondary. Also, we have no desire to leave the MEAC. You know, white does not mean better. One plus one will still be two even if you leave the MEAC for another conference. So, If SCSU believes that the Big South, a non-playoff conference, is the best move for you all because it is not an HBCU conference, then go ahead. We are staying in the MEAC, continuing to lift as we climb.

[R.A.]

Yeah, people around the water cooler at work are CLAMORING about Grambling, and pissed as hell because the playoffs don't include them.

The overinflated sense of self-worth of SWAC schools never ceases to amaze me. You are all like a bunch of little Notre Dames. "We're special, and we have 'tradition', so if YOU want US, you'll have to F-up the schedules of EVERYBODY else....we ain't changin' for *****!"

You fellas need to put down the koolaid, realize there ain't nothing special about you, and play by the same rules as everybody else. Either that, or form/play for your OWN national championship. You know, that mythical one that could pit the top two teams of the HBCU Poll! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Right, because the Nation can't wait to see the annual Montana/ Montana State match upxthumbsupx xsmiley_wix ...

Must be great for Griz fans swimming around their small pond... win 8 games and you're in the playoffs.

Why are you even in the FCS anyway? Aside from the fear of losing to the FBS teams you should be playing on a regular basis anyway thing...

There are BCS schools that don't have the type of support Montana has, yet you all play in the FCS...

P.S.-- I am a MEAC Fan...

[R.A.]

We at Hampton have a different agenda than a lot of schools, HBCU or otherwise. We are trying to be the best university that we can possibility be. That is why we are doing the things we are doing- football is secondary. Also, we have no desire to leave the MEAC. You know, white does not mean better. One plus one will still be two even if you leave the MEAC for another conference. So, If SCSU believes that the Big South, a non-playoff conference, is the best move for you all because it is not an HBCU conference, then go ahead. We are staying in the MEAC, continuing to lift as we climb.

xbowx

We must rise together as HBCUs regardless of where we are.

[McNeese75]

xbowx

We must rise together as HBCUs regardless of where we are.

xrolleyesx

Man it's getting deep in here today xcoffeex

[R.A.]

xrolleyesx

Man it's getting deep in here today xcoffeex

xlolx

It's true though. If we don't look out for our own, who will?

Take Morris Brown for example...

[AZGrizFan]

This whole discussion is kinda crazy.....

It is clear by the moves that SCState, Hampton, and Del State have been making as far as schedules, recruiting, and facility upgrades, that they have a different agenda than a lof of HBCU football teams. It is obvious which schools are satisfied playing for "Black College" Championships, and which schools want to play for NCAA championships.

I have said, and say again now, that those schools, and maybe a few others, should leave the MEAC and join conferences that are more progressive. Just because SCState is in another conference doesn't mean that they are no longer an HBCU. Tenn St. is an HBCU....yet they are not in an all HBCU conference.

If the Big South Conference came out and said, "We don't want SCState, because it is an HBCU" there would be an uproar.....So why would SCState or any other HBCU say, "we don't want any other conference, because they have schools that are NOT HBCU's"

racism works both ways.

If the MEAC is the best conference for SCState based on a sound set of criteria, then they should stay there.....

If it is not, then they should look to move....

Being an all HBCU conference is not criteria

I think that as time moves on, and some of the old school moves out of leadership and new blood moves in, that a lot of things will change....some for the worse, but most for the better.......

Very, very, VERY well said. xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[AZGrizFan]

Right, because the Nation can't wait to see the annual Montana/ Montana State match upxthumbsupx xsmiley_wix ...

Must be great for Griz fans swimming around their small pond... win 8 games and you're in the playoffs.

Why are you even in the FCS anyway? Aside from the fear of losing to the FBS teams you should be playing on a regular basis anyway thing...

There are BCS schools that don't have the type of support Montana has, yet you all play in the FCS...

P.S.-- I am a MEAC Fan...

Careful there, you'll get a reputation like MplsBison. xeyebrowx

Don't hate us because we're successful.... ;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The argument for exclusion from FCS basically ends up being a chest-thumping exercise, whether it's from HBCU's or from the Ivy League. Sitting around and saying "we're better, we make a lot of money, and/or we have ideals that only we can adhere to" always seems to end up with this separatist mentality. As it always has through history, it is very short-sighted and misses the larger possibilities of the whole.

This applies to the HBCU's (especially the SWAC, with their 9 game mandate in years past and their insistence on a SWAC championship game) but also the Ivies - where alumni have in all seriousness proposed that the Ivies only *play each other* with seven conference games and a three-game playoff for the conference winner. Sure, you COULD do all these things (and the SWAC, as a matter of fact, basically did). But as the Ivy and SWAC have discovered, it has diminished their product.

What many conferences seem to "get", from the MAAC to the Big Sky, is that interesting matchups with FBS teams, nationally-ranked FCS teams or even far-flung opponents are a great way to keep interest up in the program. People understandably get bored with all the same schools on their schedule, in the same place, year after year. I was at a Princeton game last year, and alumni couldn't have been more excited that Hampton was coming to town next year - someone they've never played.

Back to the playoffs. One of the great things about them is that they create matchups (UNI/Eastern Washington leaps to mind a couple years ago). I've got to believe that having Harvard, Grambling, Yale and Alabama State playing a range of opponents they haven't played in decades (if ever) can only be a huge source of excitement across all their fans and students. It's an opportunity that is completely lost on conferences with a separatist viewpoint.

Although it is possible to survive as a separatist conference, what will ultimately happen is that the talent level and interest will whittle away up until the point where folks won't care. Anyone who thinks "Classic Money" will be around forever or that people will always turn out for Harvard/Yale are really fooling themselves. And, paradoxically, the playoffs can give the national relevance that the "Bayou Classic" and "The Game" now sorely lack - and could revitalize those games for a new generation.

[Hammersmith]

4.) Why is it that when the FCS was being developed 40 plus years ago, that such rules were not set up so that the FCS HBCUs could INITIALLY be fully included ... from the start, why were there rules set up against certain HBCU traditions?

5.)Why should HBCUs alter our traditions, when our traditions predate the FCS?

Okay, being fairly new to FCS and coming from a region a long distance from most HBCU campuses, I've got a couple honest questions. First, exactly how far back do these HBCU traditional games go? During a quick search, I was only able to track down the initial date of the Bayou Classic(1974 - moved to the last Sat in Nov in 1978). Since the Division I/II/III system was created in 1973(DI-AA in 1978), I don't see a lot of "predating" going on here. Were there traditional classic games prior to the Bayou Classic? Also, since the SWAC only started their championship game in 1997, how can that be considered an HBCU tradition? With the information I've found, it looks like it's the HBCUs(some of them) that are setting dates to seperate themselves from the rest of FCS rather than FCS excluding them. Am I missing some facts here that would change my views?

[henfan]

FCS would continue to lose money without HBCUs, and HBCUs would continue to do what we do without FCS.

In other words, many HBCUs will also continue to lose money, just as the many other FCS schools do. In fact, Southern was the only school reporting a net profits in football during the last reporting period.

FTR, Hampton reported a $403,234 net loss on football.

This is a very, very silly thread and I apologize for contributing to it.

[SU Jag]

The bottom line is that we benefit from each other. I would love to see a HBCU National Game though, but not at the expence of costing our teams a shot at the NCAA title.

[HIU 93]

In other words, many HBCUs will also continue to lose money, just as the many other FCS schools do. In fact, Southern was the only school reporting a net profits in football during the last reporting period.

FTR, Hampton reported a $403,234 net loss on football.

This is a very, very silly thread and I apologize for contributing to it.

We also posted a $200,000,000 endowement. Which do you think we care about more?

[BgJag]

, I was only able to track down the initial date of the Bayou Classic(1974 - moved to the last Sat in Nov in 1978).

1976, 77, & 78 were all played on the last weekend, 79 game was played on Dec 1 because Tulane played LSU at home the week prior.

[HIU 93]

Okay, being fairly new to FCS and coming from a region a long distance from most HBCU campuses, I've got a couple honest questions. First, exactly how far back do these HBCU traditional games go? During a quick search, I was only able to track down the initial date of the Bayou Classic(1974 - moved to the last Sat in Nov in 1978). Since the Division I/II/III system was created in 1973(DI-AA in 1978), I don't see a lot of "predating" going on here. Were there traditional classic games prior to the Bayou Classic? Also, since the SWAC only started their championship game in 1997, how can that be considered an HBCU tradition? With the information I've found, it looks like it's the HBCUs(some of them) that are setting dates to seperate themselves from the rest of FCS rather than FCS excluding them. Am I missing some facts here that would change my views?


Its not about changing your views. HBCUs have existed in this country since 1854. HBCU football has existed since 1892. We were EXCLUDED from participation in any "mainstream" polls, championships, etc. until about 1970. That is almost a century to build traditions. It is blatantly unfair to ask a group of schools to change something that is traditional to them to fit into a system that they don't want to be a part of. The SWAC does not want to be a part of the playoffs. Why should they change to make someone who has nothing to do with them happy?

[GannonFan]

We also posted a $200,000,000 endowement. Which do you think we care about more?

But why does that preclude making money on football? UD has over a $1B endowment and we still make $1M-$2M on football each year.

[henfan]

We also posted a $200,000,000 endowement. Which do you think we care about more?

That's great. Delaware's endowment just exceeded $1 billion and there are several FCS programs whose endowments dwarf both Hampton's and Delaware's. Now back to FB talk...

I'm not sure how the size of a school's endowment has anything at all to do with your earlier suggestion that HBCU FB is a cash cow. xconfusedx

HBCU FB is FCS FB. The financial conditions are very much the same in SWAC and MEAC as they are across the rest of the FCS.

[HIU 93]

But why does that preclude making money on football? UD has over a $1B endowment and we still make $1M-$2M on football each year.

Good. Like I have said a million times before. I am happy to be on this ride. I hope we win every game, but that is not our main focus. If we lose every game, but we continue to make advances in entreprenurial development, space exploration, cancer research, etc., etc., then I will as happy a tick on a coons butt.

PS- You should have a billion dollars. You have been around since 1743. Give us that extra 125 years and remove that peculiar institution, and we would be right there with you.xthumbsupx

[R.A.]

In other words, many HBCUs will also continue to lose money, just as the many other FCS schools do. In fact, Southern was the only school reporting a net profits in football during the last reporting period.

FTR, Hampton reported a $403,234 net loss on football.

This is a very, very silly thread and I apologize for contributing to it.


Hey, genius... could you have proven my points any further???

Soxwhistlex ... does Southern participate in the FCS Playoffs??xwhistlex

And what if the MEAC decided to pull from the FCS Playoffs and play in more classics such as Southern and a few other SWAC Schools... is it possible that Hampton losses could turn into gains?xwhistlex

[813Jag]

Okay, being fairly new to FCS and coming from a region a long distance from most HBCU campuses, I've got a couple honest questions. First, exactly how far back do these HBCU traditional games go? During a quick search, I was only able to track down the initial date of the Bayou Classic(1974 - moved to the last Sat in Nov in 1978). Since the Division I/II/III system was created in 1973(DI-AA in 1978), I don't see a lot of "predating" going on here. Were there traditional classic games prior to the Bayou Classic? Also, since the SWAC only started their championship game in 1997, how can that be considered an HBCU tradition? With the information I've found, it looks like it's the HBCUs(some of them) that are setting dates to seperate themselves from the rest of FCS rather than FCS excluding them. Am I missing some facts here that would change my views?
I don't think that the SWAC Championship Game is a long standing tradition, as a matter of fact I know people who don't like the championship game. BTW the first championship game was in 1999.
There are only two games being played in the last week of November, Bayou Classic and the Turkey Day Classic (this game has been played the same time every year since 1923). So I don't see how they set that date to separate themselves from anybody. xconfusedx

[R.A.]

Okay, being fairly new to FCS and coming from a region a long distance from most HBCU campuses, I've got a couple honest questions. First, exactly how far back do these HBCU traditional games go? During a quick search, I was only able to track down the initial date of the Bayou Classic(1974 - moved to the last Sat in Nov in 1978). Since the Division I/II/III system was created in 1973(DI-AA in 1978), I don't see a lot of "predating" going on here. Were there traditional classic games prior to the Bayou Classic? Also, since the SWAC only started their championship game in 1997, how can that be considered an HBCU tradition? With the information I've found, it looks like it's the HBCUs(some of them) that are setting dates to seperate themselves from the rest of FCS rather than FCS excluding them. Am I missing some facts here that would change my views?


So... since you're doing such wonderful research... tell me all about the Turkey Day Classic if you will...

Also, more in-depth research may provided for you why the date of the Bayou Classic was moved... aside from being a great football date.

[OhioHen]

So, how do you explain the fact that the Bayou Classic, in direct competition with the FCS Playoffs, earns higher TV ratings than the first round playoff games?

1) NBC (everybody gets it) vs. ESPNU (almost nobody does)
2) advertising - NBC plugs the Bayou Classic big time, while ESPN barely bothers to mention that there is a playoff game (they're busy promoting the fact that they have some meaningless FBS game on ABC at the same time).
3) those of us who watch at least part of ALL the FCS games we can find on the tube (and it's the only time fans of the Bands can get a little coverage).


How do you explain that it averages 75K in attendance (minus the Katrina years)?

As many informed posters have noted in the past (the list probably includes you HIU 93), the Bayou Classic is more than a football game. It is an EVENT. xbowx I'm sure there are families who plan their holiday around attending. There are probably some who would rather miss out on a big Thanksgiving dinner than miss out on attending the Classic.



The FCS needs all FCS schools in the playoffs.

AMEN!!!!! xnodx xnodx xnodx (I would change the statement to FCS needs all FCS schools available and eligible for the playoffs


Grambling and Southern make so much money from the Bayou that there is no financial benefit to them in changin the timing of the game.

The almighty dollar interferes with sports yet again! xsmhx

[henfan]

Hey, genius... could you have proven my points any further???

Soxwhistlex ... does Southern participate in the FCS Playoffs??xwhistlex

Not sure what you mean. The suggestion was that HBCU FB programs make money and the rest of the FCS doesn't. That's just not the case at all. There are FCS programs who make millions without participating in HBCU Classic games. There are HBCUs who participate in Classics and still lose money.

As I indicated, financially speaking, there's little difference between the SWAC, MEAC and the rest of the FCS. Most of the programs lose money, a few break even and still fewer manage to turn a profit.

Cheers.

[R.A.]

1) NBC (everybody gets it) vs. ESPNU (almost nobody does)
2) advertising - NBC plugs the Bayou Classic big time, while ESPN barely bothers to mention that there is a playoff game (they're busy promoting the fact that they have some meaningless FBS game on ABC at the same time).
3) those of us who watch at least part of ALL the FCS games we can find on the tube (and it's the only time fans of the Bands can get a little coverage).



As many informed posters have noted in the past (the list probably includes you HIU 93), the Bayou Classic is more than a football game. It is an EVENT. xbowx I'm sure there are families who plan their holiday around attending. There are probably some who would rather miss out on a big Thanksgiving dinner than miss out on attending the Classic.




AMEN!!!!! xnodx xnodx xnodx (I would change the statement to FCS needs all FCS schools available and eligible for the playoffs



The almighty dollar interferes with sports yet again! xsmhx

RIGHT!! Why would the NCAA & FCS ask Grambling & Southern to drop their NBC cash cow... for (as I refer to it) "ESPNWho?"

[Retro]

Football and in particular the FCS is about playing for championships... Kids play football because they want to prove their the best on their team, in the conference and in their division...

It's not about money in college football.. Kids don't choose Mcneese over Southern, because southern makes a million dollars at that bayou classic.. They choose mcneese because they know of the winning tradition at the school and they know their likely to win a conference championship and be in contention for a National championship nearly every year...

The players don't care about money making games.. They don't see any of that money, nor do they see the results of that money while they play.

Most schools in the FCS are financially stable and are able to come out on the positive side each and every year, unless they overspend beyond their means, like UMASS 1998... While at the same time able to make improvements to their facilties because of donations, etc...

Grambling and Southern need the bayou classic, because without it, their school would be in the red every year.. That's how much of a difference it makes on them balancing their books.

If that's what they have to do, then more power to them.. The FCS doesn't suffer without them, nor will they see much benefit with them..

Fans of these schools have more interest in going to a HBCU vs HBCU contest than non-HBCU OOC games and besides there are only 3 swac schools that have decent attendance.. In fact, only southern and jackson state have great home attendance on average..

The question is why are you playing football? For the ultimate prize - a National Championship or to make money for your school...

[Retro]

RIGHT!! Why would the NCAA & FCS ask Grambling & Southern to drop their NBC cash cow... for (as I refer to it) "ESPNWho?"


Didn't ESPNU show weekly HBCU's games each week LAST YEAR?

It's not cash cow for NBC.. State Farm sponsors it and thus foots the bill. I doubt NBC makes much on it.xrolleyesx

[SU Jag]

Football and in particular the FCS is about playing for championships... Kids play football because they want to prove their the best on their team, in the conference and in their division...

It's not about money in college football.. Kids don't choose Mcneese over Southern, because southern makes a million dollars at that bayou classic.. They choose mcneese because they know of the winning tradition at the school and they know their likely to win a conference championship and be in contention for a National championship nearly every year...

The players don't care about money making games.. They don't see any of that money, nor do they see the results of that money while they play.

Most schools in the FCS are financially stable and are able to come out on the positive side each and every year, unless they overspend beyond their means, like UMASS 1998... While at the same time able to make improvements to their facilties because of donations, etc...

Grambling and Southern need the bayou classic, because without it, their school would be in the red every year.. That's how much of a difference it makes on them balancing their books.

If that's what they have to do, then more power to them.. The FCS doesn't suffer without them, nor will they see much benefit with them..

Fans of these schools have more interest in going to a HBCU vs HBCU contest than non-HBCU OOC games and besides there are only 3 swac schools that have decent attendance.. In fact, only southern and jackson state have great home attendance on average..

The question is why are you playing football? For the ultimate prize - a National Championship or to make money for your school...


A questionsabout your post.

1.So why do kids pick Southern over McNeese?
2. And where did you read that without the Bayou Classic, GSU and SU would be in the red?

Most SWAC schools play their bigger "home" games away from their home stadium! Ex. TSU, PVAMU.

[SU Jag]

Not sure what you mean. The suggestion was that HBCU FB programs make money and the rest of the FCS doesn't. That's just not the case at all. There are FCS programs who make millions without participating in HBCU Classic games. There are HBCUs who participate in Classics and still lose money.

As I indicated, financially speaking, there's little difference between the SWAC, MEAC and the rest of the FCS. Most of the programs lose money, a few break even and still fewer manage to turn a profit.

Cheers.



True!xnodx

[R.A.]

Not sure what you mean. The suggestion was that HBCU FB programs make money and the rest of the FCS doesn't. That's just not the case at all. There are FCS programs who make millions without participating in HBCU Classic games. There are HBCUs who participate in Classics and still lose money.

As I indicated, financially speaking, there's little difference between the SWAC, MEAC and the rest of the FCS. Most of the programs lose money, a few break even and still fewer manage to turn a profit.

Cheers.

xrolleyesx

My implication is that we can make more without the FCS... SWAC vs. MEAC, MEAC vs CIAA, SWAC vs. SIAC, etc, etc AS Southern and a few other SWAC schools do.

Right now we are all pretty much playing this out of conference deal with the FCS... games which lose money for us, when we could be playing in more HBCU classics and rivalry games, and cashing in on more dough.

And the example used by both of us was Southern. Look at their 2007 schedule. Look at how many HBCUs are on it... one can naturally assume they'll make even more money this season than last season. If they continue on this money making trend, how much profit will they make in the future?

--I applaud Hampton for their out of conference schedule, because again as a MEACFan I am a supporter of the FCS Playoffs, but I don't think anyone at my rival school is delusional in that the Southern Illinois contest will lose money for for the Pirates.

But what if the Pirates instead were playing Virginia State? They're a DII school, but they are also a traditional HBCU rival for the Pirates. That game would without a doubt sellout Armstrong Stadium and net a profit for them.

Even I knocked Hampton for playing Central State in the CCC last season... but the financial stat you provided would seem to justify such a move.

[R.A.]

Didn't ESPNU show weekly HBCU's games each week LAST YEAR?

It's not cash cow for NBC.. State Farm sponsors it and thus foots the bill. I doubt NBC makes much on it.xrolleyesx

The game is on NBC, and it brings in a mill plus each to Southern & Grambling... thus "NBC Cash Cow." xrolleyesx

[SU Jag]

xrolleyesx

My implication is that we can make more without the FCS... SWAC vs. MEAC, MEAC vs CIAA, SWAC vs. SIAC, etc, etc AS Southern and a few other SWAC schools do.

Right now we are all pretty much playing this out of conference deal with the FCS... games which lose money for us, when we could be playing in more HBCU classics and rivalry games, and cashing in on more dough.

And the example used by both of us was Southern. Look at their 2007 schedule. Look at how many HBCUs are on it... one can naturally assume they'll make even more money this season than last season. If they continue on this money making trend, how much profit will they make in the future?

--I applaud Hampton for their out of conference schedule, because again as a MEACFan I am a supporter of the FCS Playoffs, but I don't think anyone at my rival school is delusional in that the Southern Illinois contest will lose money for for the Pirates.

But what if the Pirates instead were playing Virginia State? They're a DII school, but they are also a traditional HBCU rival for the Pirates. That game would without a doubt sellout Armstrong Stadium and net a profit for them.


You make a strong point! Traditional HBCU match-ups will out sell a HBCU vs FCS match-up any day. A Southern Northwestern St match-up would be great but it wouldnt draw nearly as many people as a Southern/Tuskegee game or a Southern/Albany State game. I've heard both sides of the argument but I dont have an opinion either way. I've people who have had ideas of the SWAC,MEAC,CIAA,SIAC, and all othe the other HBCU independents setting up a HBCU league that would compete for a title, the problem that I see with that is, we loose the chance at match-ups against Georgia Southern, Montana, and ect. 2. FCS fans of the non-HBCUs now dont get the chance to witness the HBCU game atmosphere. I like things the way they are now.

[Retro]

A questionsabout your post.

1.So why do kids pick Southern over McNeese?
2. And where did you read that without the Bayou Classic, GSU and SU would be in the red?

Most SWAC schools play their bigger "home" games away from their home stadium! Ex. TSU, PVAMU.

1. I don't know of any??

2. The grambling A.D. for one was quoted as saying the game helps them balance their books.. I've also seen it written as well by those covering the schools in the past on the financial importance.

[SU Jag]

1. I don't know of any??

2. The grambling A.D. for one was quoted as saying the game helps them balance their books.. I've also seen it written as well by those covering the schools in the past on the financial importance.


You're talking to one! I know plenty of kids who choose Southern and Grambling over McNeese.

[mrklean]

You're talking to one! I know plenty of kids who choose Southern and Grambling over McNeese.

I still would love to see the SWAC play in the FCS. Both schools could get alot of press. I know you can see this is a good thing. Even if you are a ALPHA man...............lolxlolx

[R.A.]

You make a strong point! Traditional HBCU match-ups will out sell a HBCU vs FCS match-up any day. A Southern Northwestern St match-up would be great but it wouldnt draw nearly as many people as a Southern/Tuskegee game or a Southern/Albany State game. I've heard both sides of the argument but I dont have an opinion either way. I've people who have had ideas of the SWAC,MEAC,CIAA,SIAC, and all othe the other HBCU independents setting up a HBCU league that would compete for a title, the problem that I see with that is, we loose the chance at match-ups against Georgia Southern, Montana, and ect. 2. FCS fans of the non-HBCUs now dont get the chance to witness the HBCU game atmosphere. I like things the way they are now.

Agreed. I really hope that we don't come out of this 4 year observation deal hurting even more though.

[putter]

The FCS does not need the SWAC and the SWAC does not need the FCS. Each can survive without the other but, in the end, both would be much better if they found a way to have their classics and get into the playoffs. Just depends upon where you priorities are and money will always win the discussion.

[henfan]

My implication is that we can make more without the FCS... SWAC vs. MEAC, MEAC vs CIAA, SWAC vs. SIAC, etc, etc AS Southern and a few other SWAC schools do.

That may very well be true in some cases with HBCUs, but that wasn't the comment I was responding to at all. xrotatehx

BTW, I don't necessarily blame SWAC teams for not participating in the FCS playoffs and completely understand their not doing so, all things considered. The SWAC and FCS will continue to thrive despite having separate post-seasons, though some of us wish they weren't separate. Life goes on.

[R.A.]

Has anyone seen Jafus lately?

[SU Jag]

I still would love to see the SWAC play in the FCS. Both schools could get alot of press. I know you can see this is a good thing. Even if you are a ALPHA man...............lolxlolx


I agree, I'm just suprised that a Kappa man would know this!xlolx

[mrklean]

Who is Jafus??

[mrklean]

I agree, I'm just suprised that a Kappa man would know this!xlolx

SUP BRUH!!!!!!!!!! Nice to see a D9 on the boards!!!!!!!

[SU Jag]

SUP BRUH!!!!!!!!!! Nice to see a D9 on the boards!!!!!!!

Same here Bruh!!!!!!!xthumbsupx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My implication is that we can make more without the FCS... SWAC vs. MEAC, MEAC vs CIAA, SWAC vs. SIAC, etc, etc AS Southern and a few other SWAC schools do.

Right now we are all pretty much playing this out of conference deal with the FCS... games which lose money for us, when we could be playing in more HBCU classics and rivalry games, and cashing in on more dough.

And the example used by both of us was Southern. Look at their 2007 schedule. Look at how many HBCUs are on it... one can naturally assume they'll make even more money this season than last season. If they continue on this money making trend, how much profit will they make in the future?

You are making some Carl Lewis-esque leaps of faith here. Let's return to the part of your argument which is weaker than dirt: notably, Texas Southern.

By your reasoning, well, all Texas Southern needs to do is to play all HBCU Classics and then see all the money pour in, just like Southern. Except that's not how things work. Although folks will pay to see Southern play Virginia State, folks will NOT flock to see Virginia State play Texas Southern. Why? Southern is wrapped up in that magical "Bayou Classic" magic with its band and its historically solid football team. TxSo doesn't have nearly the same magic. They DEPEND on games with Grambling and Southern to break even, not Classics. (As a matter of fact, the "nine-game mandate" came about because the SWAC East schools wanted more of eh Grambling/Southern fanbase to play their schools.)

You're basically saying to go to an 11-game mandate. Only play SWAC and HBCU schools, and watch the money pour in. Except that closing off the rest of America from caring about your football games will diminish your appeal further. You're also closing off huge revenue opportunities (like playing FBS schools for guarantees, which Grambling did fairly recently).

Classics are fine, but at what point are too many too many? There's plenty of evidence that there are already too many: the Las Vegas Classic (involving, non coincidentally, Texas Southern) was cancelled last year. And for every Bayou Classic, there are classics that are struggling to make ends meet: not coincidentally, much like most Bowl Games.

You point to Southern as a shining example as for what EVERY HBCU should do to "make money" (note: I don't say "play a brand of football that is accessible to everyone in America" or "develop new fans"). And I point to Texas Southern as a school that has actually been HURT by that model. If you want HBCU football to succeed, the key is to have them play more non-HBCU teams, not less.

[mrklean]

Same here Bruh!!!!!!!xthumbsupx

I wish GA. Southern could play Southern in football. We need to show you a good time in South GA...............lolxcoolx

[SU Jag]

You are making some Carl Lewis-esque leaps of faith here. Let's return to the part of your argument which is weaker than dirt: notably, Texas Southern.

By your reasoning, well, all Texas Southern needs to do is to play all HBCU Classics and then see all the money pour in, just like Southern. Except that's not how things work. Although folks will pay to see Southern play Virginia State, folks will NOT flock to see Virginia State play Texas Southern. Why? Southern is wrapped up in that magical "Bayou Classic" magic with its band and its historically solid football team. TxSo doesn't have nearly the same magic. They DEPEND on games with Grambling and Southern to break even, not Classics. (As a matter of fact, the "nine-game mandate" came about because the SWAC East schools wanted more of eh Grambling/Southern fanbase to play their schools.)

You're basically saying to go to an 11-game mandate. Only play SWAC and HBCU schools, and watch the money pour in. Except that closing off the rest of America from caring about your football games will diminish your appeal further. You're also closing off huge revenue opportunities (like playing FBS schools for guarantees, which Grambling did fairly recently).

Classics are fine, but at what point are too many too many? There's plenty of evidence that there are already too many: the Las Vegas Classic (involving, non coincidentally, Texas Southern) was cancelled last year. And for every Bayou Classic, there are classics that are struggling to make ends meet: not coincidentally, much like most Bowl Games.

You point to Southern as a shining example as for what EVERY HBCU should do to "make money" (note: I don't say "play a brand of football that is accessible to everyone in America" or "develop new fans"). And I point to Texas Southern as a school that has actually been HURT by that model. If you want HBCU football to succeed, the key is to have them play more non-HBCU teams, not less.


I see what you're saying but, Texas Southern and PVAMU are exceptions to the rule. Look at the SWAC East schools. Lets take AAMU. AAMU would doesnt need to play SU or GSU, infact the 9game mandate hurts them the most because it takes away their traditional rilvary games with in-state teams like Miles, Stillman, and Tuskegee and its old SIAC rivalry games like Clark-Atlanta, Albany State, and Morehouse. Alabama State is different though, its games with SU and GSU are tradition. Jackson State is the same. Most HBCU head to head battles draw tons of people, go back and look at the stats from Classic games over the past few years. Texas Southern and Las Vegas was a bad fit, but Texas Southern games in Dallas, San Antonio, or somewhere close to Houston would greatly benefit them.

[SU Jag]

I wish GA. Southern could play Southern in football. We need to show you a good time in South GA...............lolxcoolx


I agree. I would love to check out a game down there in south Georgia.

[mrklean]

I see what you're saying but, Texas Southern and PVAMU are exceptions to the rule. Look at the SWAC East schools. Lets take AAMU. AAMU would doesnt need to play SU or GSU, infact the 9game mandate hurts them the most because it takes away their traditional rilvary games with in-state teams like Miles, Stillman, and Tuskegee and its old SIAC rivalry games like Clark-Atlanta, Albany State, and Morehouse. Alabama State is different though, its games with SU and GSU are tradition. Jackson State is the same. Most HBCU head to head battles draw tons of people, go back and look at the stats from Classic games over the past few years. Texas Southern and Las Vegas was a bad fit, but Texas Southern games in Dallas, San Antonio, or somewhere close to Houston would greatly benefit them.

The SIAC rivarlry games are not as important as they were 30 years ago. ie Albany ST and Clarke. Just another game. As far as for Albany State the only game that matters to them is FT. Valley(BLUE AND GOLD CLASSIC)

[R.A.]

You are making some Carl Lewis-esque leaps of faith here. Let's return to the part of your argument which is weaker than dirt: notably, Texas Southern.

By your reasoning, well, all Texas Southern needs to do is to play all HBCU Classics and then see all the money pour in, just like Southern. Except that's not how things work. Although folks will pay to see Southern play Virginia State, folks will NOT flock to see Virginia State play Texas Southern. Why? Southern is wrapped up in that magical "Bayou Classic" magic with its band and its historically solid football team. TxSo doesn't have nearly the same magic. They DEPEND on games with Grambling and Southern to break even, not Classics. (As a matter of fact, the "nine-game mandate" came about because the SWAC East schools wanted more of eh Grambling/Southern fanbase to play their schools.)

You're basically saying to go to an 11-game mandate. Only play SWAC and HBCU schools, and watch the money pour in. Except that closing off the rest of America from caring about your football games will diminish your appeal further. You're also closing off huge revenue opportunities (like playing FBS schools for guarantees, which Grambling did fairly recently).

Classics are fine, but at what point are too many too many? There's plenty of evidence that there are already too many: the Las Vegas Classic (involving, non coincidentally, Texas Southern) was cancelled last year. And for every Bayou Classic, there are classics that are struggling to make ends meet: not coincidentally, much like most Bowl Games.

You point to Southern as a shining example as for what EVERY HBCU should do to "make money" (note: I don't say "play a brand of football that is accessible to everyone in America" or "develop new fans"). And I point to Texas Southern as a school that has actually been HURT by that model. If you want HBCU football to succeed, the key is to have them play more non-HBCU teams, not less.

Texas Southern is no exception.

HBCU Classics in large are generally based off of regional competition with a competitive history or like fanbase playing each other... SO what other regional HBCUs could Texas Southern have a classic with outside of the SWAC...

Lets see... There's Paul Quinn, Texas College, etc...

But the problem as stated before, are these HBCUs are in lower divisions. While they may help our bottom line with the dollars, they don't help conference strength of schedule, plus the FCS isn't allowed to play more than 2 lower division schools in a season if I remember correctly...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Texas Southern is no exception.

HBCU Classics in large are generally based off of regional competition with a competitive history or like fanbase playing each other... SO what other regional HBCUs could Texas Southern have a classic with outside of the SWAC...

Lets see... There's Paul Quinn, Texas College, etc...

But the problem as stated before, are these HBCUs are in lower divisions. While they may help our bottom line with the dollars, they don't help conference strength of schedule, plus the FCS isn't allowed to play more than 2 lower division schools in a season if I remember correctly...

But wait a second. You don't really care about competitiveness, right? Or strength of the conference? Or how well they would do against other D-I schools, right? It's all about the money. Well, then, why not just play Paul Quinn and Texas College and nine SWAC games a year? You'll get your money then (you say). And you can indeed play more than 2 sub-D-I schools a year.

Either you care about how you stand against the rest of Division I/FCS, or you don't. Decide, man!

[R.A.]

But wait a second. You don't really care about competitiveness, right? Or strength of the conference? Or how well they would do against other D-I schools, right? It's all about the money. Well, then, why not just play Paul Quinn and Texas College and nine SWAC games a year? You'll get your money then (you say). And you can indeed play more than 2 sub-D-I schools a year.

Either you care about how you stand against the rest of Division I/FCS, or you don't. Decide, man!


So you want to feed me words now?

I have already stated my position several times. I have even written my views in simplistic specific points in this thread. I don't understand how much more basic I could be.

[Jaguar79]

Football and in particular the FCS is about playing for championships... Kids play football because they want to prove their the best on their team, in the conference and in their division...

It's not about money in college football.. Kids don't choose Mcneese over Southern, because southern makes a million dollars at that bayou classic.. They choose mcneese because they know of the winning tradition at the school and they know their likely to win a conference championship and be in contention for a National championship nearly every year...

The players don't care about money making games.. They don't see any of that money, nor do they see the results of that money while they play.

Most schools in the FCS are financially stable and are able to come out on the positive side each and every year, unless they overspend beyond their means, like UMASS 1998... While at the same time able to make improvements to their facilties because of donations, etc...

Grambling and Southern need the bayou classic, because without it, their school would be in the red every year.. That's how much of a difference it makes on them balancing their books.

If that's what they have to do, then more power to them.. The FCS doesn't suffer without them, nor will they see much benefit with them..

Fans of these schools have more interest in going to a HBCU vs HBCU contest than non-HBCU OOC games and besides there are only 3 swac schools that have decent attendance.. In fact, only southern and jackson state have great home attendance on average..

The question is why are you playing football? For the ultimate prize - a National Championship or to make money for your school...

This OPINION was brought to you by Retro.

How do you know what kids today want? If that's the case, that they only want to play for championships, then how do schools like Boise State and Ul-Lafayette get kids that maybe McNeese and Montana should be getting? This is MY opinion, but kids want to be SEEN if they have any aspirations of going to the next level. They want their mom and dad to be able to see them on TV.

And why do athletic programs play football? I don't think LSU, Southern, or McNeese would play unless there is some benefit ..... for LSU, it's money and recognition ..... Southern ..... money and recognition, and whether you want to believe it or not, McNeese also plays for money and recognition because if you didn't, you wouldn't have gone to Nebraska or Southern Miss or any other D1-A school. These kids are the first things people see of your university ..... I haven't seen 50,000 people come to see the Quiz Bowl or Science Fair.

And while we are on attendance, that average attendance in this conference still blows most of the rest of FCS away.

I will never get angry or be mad at y'all for wanting that ..... but, until y'all realize that college football is a business first and a game second, even on this level, the playoffs will be nothing more than a scroll at the bottom of the Bayou Classic or Florida-Florida State.

[Jaguar79]

1. I don't know of any??

2. The grambling A.D. for one was quoted as saying the game helps them balance their books.. I've also seen it written as well by those covering the schools in the past on the financial importance.

Breck Ackley ring a bell?

He was right there in Lake Charles, his coach was a McNeese alum and he choose Southern. It doesn't matter why he did, but he DID. He is also now the leading scorer in SU history.

However, I am having a hard time thinking of a Southern recruit who chose McNeese instead?

[Jaguar79]

You are making some Carl Lewis-esque leaps of faith here. Let's return to the part of your argument which is weaker than dirt: notably, Texas Southern.

By your reasoning, well, all Texas Southern needs to do is to play all HBCU Classics and then see all the money pour in, just like Southern. Except that's not how things work. Although folks will pay to see Southern play Virginia State, folks will NOT flock to see Virginia State play Texas Southern. Why? Southern is wrapped up in that magical "Bayou Classic" magic with its band and its historically solid football team. TxSo doesn't have nearly the same magic. They DEPEND on games with Grambling and Southern to break even, not Classics. (As a matter of fact, the "nine-game mandate" came about because the SWAC East schools wanted more of eh Grambling/Southern fanbase to play their schools.)

You're basically saying to go to an 11-game mandate. Only play SWAC and HBCU schools, and watch the money pour in. Except that closing off the rest of America from caring about your football games will diminish your appeal further. You're also closing off huge revenue opportunities (like playing FBS schools for guarantees, which Grambling did fairly recently).

Classics are fine, but at what point are too many too many? There's plenty of evidence that there are already too many: the Las Vegas Classic (involving, non coincidentally, Texas Southern) was cancelled last year. And for every Bayou Classic, there are classics that are struggling to make ends meet: not coincidentally, much like most Bowl Games.

You point to Southern as a shining example as for what EVERY HBCU should do to "make money" (note: I don't say "play a brand of football that is accessible to everyone in America" or "develop new fans"). And I point to Texas Southern as a school that has actually been HURT by that model. If you want HBCU football to succeed, the key is to have them play more non-HBCU teams, not less.

You took the WORSE case scenario with this ..... I mean, could we substitute Mississippi State for Texas Southern and LSU for Southern. Hell, we could probably substitute a low level school in Montana or Georgia Southern's conference andhave the same outcome.

Southern has the luxury of a home stadium (Texas Southern has what some are calling the worst in FCS), a solid football history (Texas Southern has Michael Strahan and?), and a solid fanbase (Texas Southern is a commuter school and in a HUGE city with UH, Rice, and a slew of A&M and UT alums.)

Texas Southern will not succeed playing non-HBCU schools. They won't succeed until their administration takes Tiger football seriously, just like at any other school.

FCS has not brought in new fans .... if that was the case, the Southland wouldn't be looking for SWAC games .... most of us are in the same boat .... Southern, at the moment, is an exception as is Montana.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Grambling and Southern need the bayou classic, because without it, their school would be in the red every year.. That's how much of a difference it makes on them balancing their books.
...xlolx Yall kill me thinking you know whats going on @ SU or Gram. This statement is absoultly false xlolx .

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

1. I don't know of any??

2. The grambling A.D. for one was quoted as saying the game helps them balance their books.. I've also seen it written as well by those covering the schools in the past on the financial importance.

1. Your lying, I know plenty. When SU played the cowgirls your coach was quoted in the paper, were tried to recruit a lot of their players.

2. SU isn't Gram by a long shot.

[Jaguar79]

But wait a second. You don't really care about competitiveness, right? Or strength of the conference? Or how well they would do against other D-I schools, right? It's all about the money. Well, then, why not just play Paul Quinn and Texas College and nine SWAC games a year? You'll get your money then (you say). And you can indeed play more than 2 sub-D-I schools a year.

Either you care about how you stand against the rest of Division I/FCS, or you don't. Decide, man!

What's wrong with balancing your budget and playing for titles? Personally, I don't care about FCS, but that's not because I don't like it. It just has no interest for me. I could never get fired up for McNeese, Lehigh, or South Dakota State the way FAMU makes my blood boil.

I'm not asking for 14 million like the Sugar Bowl, but why do y'all continue to allow the NCAA to pillage your playoff games when they don't touch the higher leagues? There is no reason that all 16 teams shouldn't come back with something. I mean, 1 team gets the title, and everyone else gets pillaged and the visitors get nothing.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

What's wrong with balancing your budget and playing for titles? Personally, I don't care about FCS, but that's not because I don't like it. It just has no interest for me. I could never get fired up for McNeese, Lehigh, or South Dakota State the way FAMU makes my blood boil.
.Exactly

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's wrong with balancing your budget and playing for titles? Personally, I don't care about FCS, but that's not because I don't like it. It just has no interest for me. I could never get fired up for McNeese, Lehigh, or South Dakota State the way FAMU makes my blood boil.

Nothing's wrong with balancing the budget and playing for titles - if indeed the "Classics business model" works if your name is not FAMU, B-CC, Grambling or Southern (which I doubt heavily). But I found with Lehigh/Lafayette that the playoffs only served to make the rivalry better, changing the focus to national championships. There's a buzz up here about national championships that just isn't present on Ivy campuses.


I'm not asking for 14 million like the Sugar Bowl, but why do y'all continue to allow the NCAA to pillage your playoff games when they don't touch the higher leagues? There is no reason that all 16 teams shouldn't come back with something. I mean, 1 team gets the title, and everyone else gets pillaged and the visitors get nothing.

That's not accurate. Each round of the playoffs is at home venues, where the home team (I think) keeps the gate. And in practice the $$$ that gets spent by the NCAA on these games merely covers the costs. Even having the game on ESPN2 is a courtesy: there's no huge sums of money here.

[McNeese75]

Breck Ackley ring a bell?

He was right there in Lake Charles, his coach was a McNeese alum and he choose Southern. It doesn't matter why he did, but he DID. He is also now the leading scorer in SU history.

However, I am having a hard time thinking of a Southern recruit who chose McNeese instead?

What makes you think Ackley was even offered a scholly at McNeese? His success is due in large to his mentor and we know where he played his college ball.

No knock on Breck, he was a quality player and worked out well for you. You act like McNeese has never signed a player from Baton Rouge or one that was considering Southern (or played there). xeyebrowx

[McNeese75]

1. Your lying, I know plenty. When SU played the cowgirls your coach was quoted in the paper, were tried to recruit a lot of their players.

2. SU isn't Gram by a long shot.

xnonono2x Pretty stong accuasations there SUjag. Got any links to back that up other than your convenient memory??? xrulesx Give us some names here and proof of your claims.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

xnonono2x Pretty stong accuasations there SUjag.
I cant understand your language.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

xnonono2x Pretty stong accuasations there SUjag. Got any links to back that up other than your convenient memory??? xrulesx Give us some names here and proof of your claims.
You go look it up. It was in the advocate in the week leading up to SU vs mcneese.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

The thing I don't understand, if our level of play is so bad, WHY in the ell almost every FCS team in the country calls SU for games on a yearly basis . The SWAC, by far has the best athletes in FCS. The NFL rosters over the years says that.

[Retro]

The thing I don't understand, if our level of play is so bad, WHY in the ell almost every FCS team in the country calls SU for games on a yearly basis . The SWAC, by far has the best athletes in FCS. The NFL rosters over the years says that.


Get off your high horse!

Please don't act like teams are knocking down the door to get you on their schedule. Do you really think the real FCS teams will even consider southern after the way Southern handled the mcneese series.

Your still living in the past with the NFL thing... Someone posted it earlier showing the amount of SWAC players in the NFL vs the other conferences and it's not impressive.. To add, the only reason the swac has historically had a high number is because prior to integration at current major FBS colleges, the only place for the best black athletes to go was the black colleges themselves.. As that changed, the best athletes got better offers to bigger and better colleges and thus the current result...

If your doing so well financially with the bayou classic and the other classics, then why doesn't southern already have 1st class facilities in all sports? Why, because like i said before.. That game only helps balance the books.. The proof is in the pudding einstein!xreadx

If you don't care about the FCS, then why do you and others spend so much time on this board blowing smoke... The people here are talking about playing each other for a national championship not heresay.. Prove it on the field or go play some meaningless game in detroit or chicago. If you want to stay segregated, then it's your funeral!

[McNeese75]

You go look it up. It was in the advocate in the week leading up to SU vs mcneese.

Says you xlolx

[HIU 93]

--I applaud Hampton for their out of conference schedule, because again as a MEACFan I am a supporter of the FCS Playoffs, but I don't think anyone at my rival school is delusional in that the Southern Illinois contest will lose money for for the Pirates.

But what if the Pirates instead were playing Virginia State? They're a DII school, but they are also a traditional HBCU rival for the Pirates. That game would without a doubt sellout Armstrong Stadium and net a profit for them.


No, it wouldn't. The game is on Nov. 17th, and it's a Saturday, and I live in DC. It's hard for me to tear myself away from here to go to that very important game. There is no way I would leave here on Nov. 17th to see us beat VSU 100-0, and a large portion of the potential viewing audience wouldn't either.

Anyway, your main point is very valid, but the level of competition between FCS and Div. II is so skewed that playing a Div. II team has no benefit, financial or otherwise. That is why the Aggie-Eagle classic ended three years ago, and they won't call the game a Classic this year when they play. The main thing that we as FCS schools need to understand is that we will always play second fiddle to FBS. With the exception of a few games (the Bayou is one of them), we will NEVER be in the position that FBS is in.

[McNeese75]

The thing I don't understand, if our level of play is so bad, WHY in the ell almost every FCS team in the country calls SU for games on a yearly basis . The SWAC, by far has the best athletes in FCS. The NFL rosters over the years says that.

xrolleyesx

Yeah right, I suppose you can prove that one too xrotatehx

OK, everyone who knows their AD has called SU for a game this year speak up!!!! xwhistlex

[HIU 93]

I still would love to see the SWAC play in the FCS. Both schools could get alot of press. I know you can see this is a good thing. Even if you are a ALPHA man...............lolxlolx

You're a Kappa?

I guess you have the right to make bad decisions.:p xlolx

[HIU 93]

Each round of the playoffs is at home venues, where the home team (I think) keeps the gate.

No, the gate is all NCAA. That is why ticket distribution and ticket prices are different during the playoffs.

[SU Jag]

Get off your high horse!

Please don't act like teams are knocking down the door to get you on their schedule. Do you really think the real FCS teams will even consider southern after the way Southern handled the mcneese series.

Your still living in the past with the NFL thing... Someone posted it earlier showing the amount of SWAC players in the NFL vs the other conferences and it's not impressive.. To add, the only reason the swac has historically had a high number is because prior to integration at current major FBS colleges, the only place for the best black athletes to go was the black colleges themselves.. As that changed, the best athletes got better offers to bigger and better colleges and thus the current result...

If your doing so well financially with the bayou classic and the other classics, then why doesn't southern already have 1st class facilities in all sports? Why, because like i said before.. That game only helps balance the books.. The proof is in the pudding einstein!xreadx

If you don't care about the FCS, then why do you and others spend so much time on this board blowing smoke... The people here are talking about playing each other for a national championship not heresay.. Prove it on the field or go play some meaningless game in detroit or chicago. If you want to stay segregated, then it's your funeral!

A "meaningless" game in Chicago equals an entire year of attendence at McNeese!

[HIU 93]

If you want to stay segregated, then it's your funeral!

Segregation was a system of inequity forced upon us by government. You know, it was the reason there is a Grambling and a Southern University system.

The SWAC choosing not to participate in the playoffs is their right. That was the goal of the desegregation movement, to have a choice.

[BgJag]

[QUOTE]Get off your high horse!

Please don't act like teams are knocking down the door to get you on their schedule. Do you really think the real FCS teams will even consider southern after the way Southern handled the mcneese series.

Did any other school not play McNeese in recent years? I never hear you comment on them, is it because they wasn't going to bring the gate we were? Let cut through the chase here, you upset because McNeese missed out on a big gate that day, nothing more, nothing less, it's all about the benjamin.xrotatehx

[KleinTx05]

i have MUCH RESPECT for the SWAC and all that it stands for, but for you to say it has the best athletes is totally LUDACRIS ...yes it has had some great athletes go into the NFL but from my recolection (sp) everytime the SWAC come to our turf the only thing thats exciting is the band ...the football team leaves with xasswhipx (you figure it out)

[henfan]

No, the gate is all NCAA. That is why ticket distribution and ticket prices are different during the playoffs.

That is incorrect.

The host institution is only on the hook for 75% of estimated net receipts, which must at least meet the minimum guarantee amounts. Schools that put fannies in the seats for playoff games stand to clear considerable amounts of cash, especially if those that host multiple playoff games. xthumbsupx

[HIU 93]

That is incorrect.

The host institution is only on the hook for 75% of estimated net receipts, which must at least meet the minimum guarantee amounts. Schools that put fannies in the seats for playoff games stand to clear considerable amounts of cash, especially if those that host multiple playoff games. xthumbsupx

Okay, so you have to fork over 75% of your gate, not 100%. That's extortion. If I did that, I would be sharing a cell with Donaghy and Vick.

[henfan]

Okay, so you have to fork over 75% of your gate, not 100%. That's extortion. If I did that, I would be sharing a cell with Donaghy and Vick.

Wrong again. It's not 75% of the gate; it's 75% of the estimated net receipts to at least meet the minimum bid amount. Understand as well that the host institution incurs little expense after meeting the bid (no guarantees to or revenue sharing with the opposition, payment & per diem to officials, media production costs, etc.) That's done on the NCAA's dime.

For example, the minimum bid for a 1st Round game is $30K. If you can land a game for anything close to the minimum bid and you put 15K fannies in the seats, you are going to clear a lot of cash.

The FCS playoffs are a nice system for host institutions IF you can sell enough tickets to cover your bid. If you don't sell tickets, well, that's another story...

[henfan]

In fairness, I wanted to note that the NCAA FCS Playoffs can be as financially unrewarding for teams with low ticket sales as the Heritage Bowl was for the MEAC & SWAC. In that case, you had a bowl 'suspended' due to insufficient support. The bowl or classic model works in some cases; in others it clearly doesn't. Same with the playoffs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Segregation was a system of inequity forced upon us by government. You know, it was the reason there is a Grambling and a Southern University system.

The SWAC choosing not to participate in the playoffs is their right. That was the goal of the desegregation movement, to have a choice.

It absolutely is their right to not participate in the playoffs, play a championship game, only play other HBCU's, etc. Whether it's a smart decision to separate from the rest of FCS, though (which is the point of this thread, "HBCU's don't need the FCS") is the issue.

All I've seen as a defense for this is "well, Grambling and Southern do OK, so what's good for them is good for everyone else". Even if you accept this (which I don't - if they're making so much money, how come they don't have the best compliance departments in the SWAC? Grambling & Southern should be leading the way in APR compliance...) it's still not a good business model and (I would argue) has actually damaged schools like Texas Southern.

[bosshogg]

It absolutely is their right to not participate in the playoffs, play a championship game, only play other HBCU's, etc. Whether it's a smart decision to separate from the rest of FCS, though (which is the point of this thread, "HBCU's don't need the FCS") is the issue.

All I've seen as a defense for this is "well, Grambling and Southern do OK, so what's good for them is good for everyone else". Even if you accept this (which I don't - if they're making so much money, how come they don't have the best compliance departments in the SWAC? Grambling & Southern should be leading the way in APR compliance...) it's still not a good business model and (I would argue) has actually damaged schools like Texas Southern.


agreed....

[henfan]

Would someone please confirm (with links) how football revenue from the SWAC Conference Championship game is shared by SWAC members, if at all? Is any revenue derived from NBC for the broadcast of the GSU-SU game and, if so, is it shared with the rest of the SWAC? How many SWAC schools typically net profits vs. losses from the Classics?

[mikebigg]

This is the debate that never goes away... the only thing that REALLY pisses me off is how folk seem to rally towards criticizing the SWAC with putdowns for not being in the playoffs. Some even go so far as to say that Grambling went to the Classic out of fear. That's an insult to the courage and character of Coach Eddie Robinson, who is a founder and organizer of the Bayou Classic. Who had ever heard of two schools moving their rivalry game from the home campus? It was unheard of at the time. Can you imagine Coach Robinson having the nerve to tell the folk in North La that we were gonna move this rivalry game all the way down to New Orleans? He was actually taking the game into the "enemy" territory since New Orleans is only 80 something miles from BR and 200 plus miles from Grambling. Coach saw a money making opportunity for both programs so he decided to give his guys an opportunity to contribute to the growth of our program.

If he felt the playoffs were in our best interest, then he would have participated. In fact, he did whenever he was offered a bid. Not once during his tenure did he decline an invitation to the playoffs. Some of you seem to forget that the SWAC does not have an automatic bid. When we did, we participated and was competitive... but I guess losing by less than a 6 point td on the homefield of a quality opponent (remember they were in the playoffs too) when the field was much smaller and therefore the teams playing were considered the top teams available is not impressive enuff.

Grambling is not afraid of anyone...but we don't go out of our way to appease folk by doing things that are not in our best interest. Don't try to place this at our feet with comments that Bama State, The ICON, and SU are not doing things in the best interest of the conference. We didn't set the guidelines for FCS playoff dates and participation that excludes the SWAC teams getting an at large bid.

As far the SCG...we had no choice. Since the playoffs wasn't a guarantee, we basically said "Screw" yall...we'll do our own post season thing. That may come across as gruff, but that's basically how I feel we should have handle things on that issue. You don't want us "unless" so we said, "screw you, regardless". May not be polite but it is what it is!

[813Jag]

Would someone please confirm (with links) how football revenue from the SWAC Conference Championship game is shared by SWAC members, if at all? Is any revenue derived from NBC for the broadcast of the GSU-SU game and, if so, is it shared with the rest of the SWAC? How many SWAC schools typically net profits vs. losses from the Classics?
Here's an article on the SWAC Championship (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_23_16/ai_59019432) game (from 2000). Here's one on the Bayou Classic (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_22_16/ai_58614848). (from 1999)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Grambling is not afraid of anyone...but we don't go out of our way to appease folk by doing things that are not in our best interest. Don't try to place this at our feet with comments that Bama State, The ICON, and SU are not doing things in the best interest of the conference. We didn't set the guidelines for FCS playoff dates and participation that excludes the SWAC teams getting an at large bid.

Oh, please. You think that SWAC had no knowledge of the Bayou Classic when they said they weren't participating in the playoffs (presumably when it expanded)?

And you contradict yourself above. "We don't go out of our way to appease folk by doing things that are not in our best interest". Fine, yet, "Don't try to place this at our feet with comments that The ICON, and SU are not doing things in the best interest of the conference." Oh, really? Do ALL the SWAC teams have healthy athletic departments? If they don't, doesn't part of it have to do with the Grambling/Southern business model, which all the SWAC teams are basically forced to follow though mandates and the decisions like having a SCG?

Let's say 1) playing more FBS teams, and 2) being in the playoffs would help Texas Southern's bottom line. Would Grambling and Southern graciously step aside, move the Bayou Classic and do what best for TxSo's best interests?

[Retro]

Here's another article clearly reflecting the financial importance of that one game!

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WMX/is_23_23/ai_n17114778

[McNeese_beat]

I think there are two issues:

1. Does the lack of participation from the SWAC in the FCS post-season make business sense for the SWAC and
2. Does it make sense in terms of the competitiveness of the SWAC programs.

The answer to No. 1 is partially, but for the short term. Grambling and Southern get to play their NBC game on a weekend where there is little else on TV in terms of college football. I doubt if a network would be interested in airing that game the week before Thanksgiving while most of college football is still playing a regular season. And I noted above, the business advantage is short term. I'll get to that more later.

The answer to No. 2 is it has absolutely DESTROYED the SWAC programs' competitiveness not to play in the playoffs. In this day and age, kids want to play for something more than tradition. They want a championship. I know of many quality players that are choosing Southland Conference schools over SWAC schools for that very reason. You doubt it? Look at the results on the field when the two conferences play. McNeese, for one, has NEVER lost to a SWAC team. Over the years, as the older generation of SWAC fans die off, that's going to prove costly as the younger generation gets used to SWAC teams that can't compete with the mainstream of college football, not even in their subdivision. Kids in high school have never seen a SWAC champion that can compete with a Southland champion and they know it.

Now, this was probably different in the 1970s to the early 80s, but the game evolved. McNeese went to the Independence Bowl in 1979 and 1980 with teams that were probably, on the field, 50-50 racially. Back then, teams ran schemes that put less emphasis on speed. You could get away with running a 5-flat 40-yard dash guy at middle linebacker if that guy was strong and mean and had a knack for filling the proper gap and not missing the tackle. But as the game evolved and speed became an emphasis, the "historically white schools" started recruiting more black athletes who can run. You no longer could have a 5-flat 40 guy at mike linebacker, otherwise a good coach was going to find a way to make him cover a tight end who runs a 4.65 in the flat and it was going to be a mismatch. Blame it on Bill Walsh for the West Coast offense. Blame it on Lawrence Taylor, who made even left tackles have to be able to move their feet.

But the bottom line is now, "white" schools tend to start mostly black players, especially on defense. McNeese will have 10 African-American starters this year on defense and that won't be remarkable in any way. Just look at the SEC's lineups. So now you have these I-AA schools like McNeese who have the interest and ability to recuirt every state player that a Grambling or Southern might also recruit and believe me, the fact that McNeese, Southeastern, Northwestern or Nicholls can compete for a national championship IS a factor in these young men's decision. There are far more athletes who will rule out the SWAC schools because they don't play in the playoffs than there are athletes who will rule out the playoff schools because the athlete wants to be part of the SWAC traditions. The tradition and community pride of playing in the SWAC gets lost to the players' competitive nature. If, however, SWAC teams did play for a national championship, I bet a lot more prospects would be influenced by the rich history of the SWAC. In that case, the legacy of the league would become a positive recruiting factor for the HBCUs.

Look, I saw it when McNeese played a home-and-home with Grambling back in 02 and 03 and when McNeese played at Southern in 04. The SWAC teams were AWFUL, up front especially. There were still some talented kids out there. Eugene was a great QB for Grambling, for example. I know George Guidry, who transferred from Nebraska to Grambling was a really good player. But I would bet there were three or four starters on both Grambling's and Southern's o-lines who couldn't even make McNeese's 3-deep because they just couldn't move their feet. They were fat guys, basically.

I bet you Eddie Robinson's teams from the 70s would beat any current SWAC team by 50. But a lot of the players Coach Rob once would have signed are now not only going to the SEC, but they are also going to the SLC, the Sun Belt, the OVC and the Southern Conferences. It didn't have to be that way, but when Grambling and Southern opted not to participate in the playoffs, the SWAC started tumbling in that direction.

[mikebigg]

(1) Oh, please. You think that SWAC had no knowledge of the Bayou Classic when they said they weren't participating in the playoffs (presumably when it expanded)?

(2) And you contradict yourself above. "We don't go out of our way to appease folk by doing things that are not in our best interest". Fine, yet, "Don't try to place this at our feet with comments that The ICON, and SU are not doing things in the best interest of the conference." Oh, really? Do ALL the SWAC teams have healthy athletic departments? If they don't, doesn't part of it have to do with the Grambling/Southern business model, which all the SWAC teams are basically forced to follow though mandates and the decisions like having a SCG?

(3) Let's say 1) playing more FBS teams, and 2) being in the playoffs would help Texas Southern's bottom line. Would Grambling and Southern graciously step aside, move the Bayou Classic and do what best for TxSo's best interests?

#1. The SWAC didn't remove itself from the playoffs... the NCAA stated that in order for a conference to receive an automatic bid, one of the criteria is that it's conference champion MUST make itself available for the playoffs. Bama State, The ICON, and SU decided that we wanted to complete our regular season and schedule our games according to our wishes and not those of the NCAA. Consequently, no auto bid for either of us... at the time no big deal because it simply meant that the playoffs could now invite JSU and Alcorn to participate. If you check the records you will see that those teams (as well as Grambling when selected) participated in the playoffs.

#2 I stand by both statements...and I don't view them as being contradictory of each other. Grambling and SU decided to keep our regular season rivalry game matchup on the date that best served our fans and consequently our coffers. The key word is "keep" as in leaving as is...not changing. When we didn't change our date, the NCAA said, "well don't expect an autobid". Cool... that didn't prevent them from inviting other schools from the SWAC that was "available" for the playoffs.

#3 Under the example that you gave...hell naw! Grambling has to balance our books and take care of our program. I gots much love for TxSU as a sister school and conference member, but my primary concern is about what's best for Grambling and her students. If our AD started scheduling games based on "the best interest" of anyone other than Grambling then I will do all in my limited power to get his azz gone.

[mikebigg]

I think there are two issues:

1. Does the lack of participation from the SWAC in the FCS post-season make business sense for the SWAC and
2. Does it make sense in terms of the competitiveness of the SWAC programs.

The answer to No. 2 is it has absolutely DESTROYED the SWAC programs' competitiveness not to play in the playoffs. In this day and age, kids want to play for something more than tradition. They want a championship. I know of many quality players that are choosing Southland Conference schools over SWAC schools for that very reason.

That may be true...but tell me then, why does kids sign with ULL, Arkansas State, North Texas State if playing for a National Championship is so important? These schools don't participate in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the playoffs. But they are not the recruiting tool that some of you might think they are.

But this is really an old issue and a dead horse item. As I have stated in the past, have your AD call our AD and see if we can work out a deal for a game. It can be home and home... we'd (at least I ) would love to play McNeese again, I think the fans really liked the atmosphere and overall buzz from the games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

#2 I stand by both statements...and I don't view them as being contradictory of each other. Grambling and SU decided to keep our regular season rivalry game matchup on the date that best served our fans and consequently our coffers. The key word is "keep" as in leaving as is...not changing. When we didn't change our date, the NCAA said, "well don't expect an autobid". Cool... that didn't prevent them from inviting other schools from the SWAC that was "available" for the playoffs.

I think we're veering more into the SCG here and out of the Bayou Classic. It's not so much the Turkey Day Classic and Bayou Classic which prevent SWAC participation - it's the SCG (and to a lesser extent the "nine-game mandate"), which in effect keeps SWAC teams from the playoffs.

Both were moves to try to milk the Grambling and Southern fans to go to one or two more SWAC games and fill the coffers of your other schools. But other SWAC schools are hurting more than ever.

[mikebigg]

I think we're veering more into the SCG here and out of the Bayou Classic. It's not so much the Turkey Day Classic and Bayou Classic which prevent SWAC participation - it's the SCG (and to a lesser extent the "nine-game mandate"), which in effect keeps SWAC teams from the playoffs.

Both were moves to try to milk the Grambling and Southern fans to go to one or two more SWAC games and fill the coffers of your other schools. But other SWAC schools are hurting more than ever.

Now that one I can agree with... although I like the SCG (because it gives Grambling an extra game and has helped in our recruiting of players from Birmingham), it hurts the rest of the SWAC teams that might get an at large bid. UAPB is on the upswing and now that JSU has made a good hire in Rick Comegys they too are possible recipients of future at large bids...IF they didn't have to play in the SCG.

However, since there is no guarantee (and I know we can't have it both ways), we (the conference) will probably keep the SCG. The only way around it is for the SWAC and NCAA come to some type of agreement that will allow the NCAA to move the playoff back 1 week and (SWAC) cancel the SCG.

[bosshogg]

All I know is SCState had a stell recruiting class this past year with several kids that turned down 1-A scholarships to come to SCSU...everyone of them stated that their ability to compete for a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIHP was key in their decision to come to SCSU.....

like I said....the SWAC schools can do what they please......go to the bayou Classic and the SCG all day if you like....SCState has different plans...and we agree with them...

[HIU 93]

It absolutely is their right to not participate in the playoffs, play a championship game, only play other HBCU's, etc. Whether it's a smart decision to separate from the rest of FCS, though (which is the point of this thread, "HBCU's don't need the FCS") is the issue.

All I've seen as a defense for this is "well, Grambling and Southern do OK, so what's good for them is good for everyone else". Even if you accept this (which I don't - if they're making so much money, how come they don't have the best compliance departments in the SWAC? Grambling & Southern should be leading the way in APR compliance...) it's still not a good business model and (I would argue) has actually damaged schools like Texas Southern.

What do APR and money have to do with each other? APR has to do with graduation rates, class attendance, etc.

The defense is this- Gram and Southern need to do what's best for them. That is their right. I, for one, never said that I don't like the playoofs. I have said, numerous times, that each conference and team and needs to do what's best for themselves. Also, HBCUs don't NEED FCS, and neither does FCS NEED HBCUs. We will both survive fine without each other.

[henfan]

Here's an article on the SWAC Championship (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_23_16/ai_59019432) game (from 2000). Here's one on the Bayou Classic (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_22_16/ai_58614848). (from 1999)

Thanks, Jag! (and Retro.) Exactly what I was looking for. A couple of things. Looks like SWAC programs share in the revenue from the SWAC title game, though it's not clear if the actual participants come out ahead on that deal after travel, lodging & per diems are considered.

GSU & SU are bound to their date not only by tradition, but by the terms of the agreement between game sponsors & NBC. Sponsors pay NBC for airtime, which is typical at the FCS level.

There's little chance the SWAC can change its dates in order for their teams to participate in the playoffs, at least in the short term. It's just as unlikely that the NCAA would be able to change its dates for the playoffs, given the agreements the bowl agreements the FBS has with ESPN. There's really no point in even discussing this issue any further, IMO.

[813Jag]

Thanks, Jag! (and Retro.) Exactly what I was looking for. A couple of things. Looks like SWAC programs share in the revenue from the SWAC title game, though it's not clear if the actual participants come out ahead on that deal after travel, lodging & per diems are considered.

GSU & SU are bound to their date not only by tradition, but by the terms of the agreement between game sponsors & NBC. Sponsors pay NBC for airtime, which is typical at the FCS level.

There's little chance the SWAC can change its dates in order for their teams to participate in the playoffs, at least in the short term. It's just as unlikely that the NCAA would be able to change its dates for the playoffs, given the agreements the bowl agreements the FBS has with ESPN. There's really no point in even discussing this issue any further, IMO.
No problem.

[mikebigg]

All I know is SCState had a stell recruiting class this past year with several kids that turned down 1-A scholarships to come to SCSU...everyone of them stated that their ability to compete for a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIHP was key in their decision to come to SCSU.....

like I said....the SWAC schools can do what they please......go to the bayou Classic and the SCG all day if you like....SCState has different plans...and we agree with them...

Glad to hear that things are going well for you guys. Unfortunately at this time, Grambling is gonna take another approach. Nothing against the playoffs, as I have stated previously, I would enjoy seeing Grambling competing in the playoffs...what true football fan wouldn't. However, we feel that our best option is to continue to play the Bayou Classic as scheduled for the last Saturday in November. That is a tradition that each year becomes moreso. I doubt (at least, I hope) that in my life time it always remain that way. The SCG? Well, I feel like this...it's better than nothing. That's not to demean the game or anything, but I'd rather see the two divisional winners participating in the playoffs.

In some post, I have heard accusations of the SWAC segregating itself. That's really not the case. The Council of Presidents decided that all the teams needed to have Jackson, SU, and Grambling on the schedule. Now that it's been lifted... look for Grambling and Jackson to branch out more.
That means making home and home deals with some FCS schools as well as FBS's some major conference and some lower conference. We're just looking for games that make some money and expand our program.

[henfan]

Also, HBCUs don't NEED FCS, and neither does FCS NEED HBCUs.

Needis kind of an odd word to use here. While no FCS school or conference needs playoffs, bowls or classics to survive (e.g.- Ivy League), most have clearly indicated their preference. In any case, it's inaccurate to generalize about all FCS HBCUs.

It's true that it's the PREFERENCE of roughly half of the HBCUs to participate in the FCS playoffs (MEAC, TSU, & SSU), just as it is the PREFERENCE of the other half to participate in the SWAC post-season.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Get off your high horse!

Please don't act like teams are knocking down the door to get you on their schedule. Do you really think the real FCS teams will even consider southern after the way Southern handled the mcneese series.
KATRINA WAS NOT SU's FAULT. So you want us to cancel a home game, to come play you the next season xlolx .
Your still living in the past with the NFL thing... Someone posted it earlier showing the amount of SWAC players in the NFL vs the other conferences and it's not impressive.. To add, the only reason the swac has historically had a high number is because prior to integration at current major FBS colleges, the only place for the best black athletes to go was the black colleges themselves.. As that changed, the best athletes got better offers to bigger and better colleges and thus the current result...

If your doing so well financially with the bayou classic and the other classics, then why doesn't southern already have 1st class facilities in all sports? Why, because like i said before.. That game only helps balance the books.. The proof is in the pudding einstein!xreadx
Lets compare and please post mcneese's budget
Tolor White, the Southern system's vice president for finance, said the overall system is working with a $152.4 million operating budget this year, an increase of more than $9 million from last year.

"There is never enough money," White said. "But we're increasing in each one of the (campus) operating budgets.

"But it'll still be tight," White said, especially since much of the money is dedicated to faculty and staff salary increases.

The flagship Baton Rouge campus has a $92.7 million budget - an increase of nearly $4 million - and the Southern University Law Center in Baton Rouge has $10.8 million, which is nearly $2 million more than last year.




Baseball-SU, your grandstand is condemed xlolx xlolx
basketball-SU 4 million dollar renovation with new world class weightroom with replay monitors. You don't have a basketball arena xlolx .
Football-SU- although we need updated locker rooms, which is comming 15 million already in the bank, SU has a 1 million dollar playing surface, 4 million dollar replay monitor, and a 5 million dollar score board.
softball- mcneese
track-SU SU recently resurface its track which is located in AW Mumford.

If you don't care about the FCS, then why do you and others spend so much time on this board blowing smoke... The people here are talking about playing each other for a national championship not heresay.. Prove it on the field or go play some meaningless game in detroit or chicago. If you want to stay segregated, then it's your funeral!
To talk shat, and to piss people like you off. xlolx
xthumbsupx

[McNeese_beat]

That may be true...but tell me then, why does kids sign with ULL, Arkansas State, North Texas State if playing for a National Championship is so important? These schools don't participate in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the playoffs. But they are not the recruiting tool that some of you might think they are.

But this is really an old issue and a dead horse item. As I have stated in the past, have your AD call our AD and see if we can work out a deal for a game. It can be home and home... we'd (at least I ) would love to play McNeese again, I think the fans really liked the atmosphere and overall buzz from the games.

I think Southern (am I correct in thinking you're a Southern fan) would have to play the second half of the home-and-home with McNeese for there to be even an effort to renew the series. I don't think McNeese is so desperate for money that they would resign a deal with a school that backed out of a game in bad faith. Don't get me wrong; not playing in 2005 was understandable. Not playing the game until there was an available slot on the schedule is also understandable. But not playing at all and using an "Act of God" clause to get out of it is plain bad faith.

As to your first point, I hear you. And I submit that that's why FCS schools, which are in effect a lower level of football than FBS schools, are still able to beat the lower end of those schools for recruits! I'm not necessarily saying that FCS schools recruit better players than low-level FBS schools, but I am saying that top-level FCS schools routinely beat Sun Belt, MAC or WAC schools straight up for some prospects and Sun Belt, MAC and WAC schools are having to recruit against FCS schools to get most of their recruits, as opposed to beating, say, C-USA or SEC schools for these players.

Of course, recruiting is more nuanced than that, but in general, Sun Belt level recruits are also SLC level recruits and there's a reason for that.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

If your doing so well financially with the bayou classic and the other classics, then why doesn't southern already have 1st class facilities in all sports? Why, because like i said before.. That game only helps balance the books.. The proof is in the pudding einstein!xreadx

You have no idea what your talking about xlolx . SU's board has the highest budget in the state, even more than LSU. Not saying its right, but it its what it is.

The Southern University Board of Supervisors is trying to figure out what to do after its annual board budget was cut in half this year by the Legislature.

Still, Southern's board easily remains the best funded higher education board in the state, using twice the money as the LSU System Board of Supervisors.

The Southern board had scheduled a closed-door discussion about the legislative session's "impact" on the board's budget during its planned retreat Friday in Shreveport.

But the agenda item was removed Tuesday shortly after The Advocate questioned whether shutting the doors for such a discussion would violate the state's open meetings law.

Board Vice Chairman Myron Lawson of Alexandria confirmed the discussion should not be closed and said Southern will have to carry out the legislative budget changes.

Southern's board had a $507,233 budget last year, mostly for board member stipends, travel costs, supplies, office staffing and other expenses, said Tolor White, Southern University System vice president for finance.

"It certainly will be a challenge," White said. "You can't spend what you don't have."

Although Southern University received an influx of overall funds, the board's amount was cut to $250,354 for the 2007-2008 academic year in an effort pushed by state Sen. Cleo Fields, D-Baton Rouge, who has butted heads with some board leadership.

Mark Antoon of the Legislative Fiscal Office discussed the budgetary changes but directed questions about the reasons for the changes to Fields.

The state senator did not return five messages Monday and Tuesday and board Chairman Johnny Anderson did not return two phone messages Tuesday.

In comparison to Southern's board, the LSU board will receive $124,502. The University of Louisiana System's board gets $218,000. The Louisiana Community and Technical College System's board receives $186,180.
LSU's allotment is low because of limited travel costs of $22,000 and because LSU's board members do not receive any "per diem" stipends for attending meetings.

John Antolik, LSU System assistant vice president, said the system and university campuses chip in to assist board staffing and supply costs.

Southern had its per diem budget cut from $25,000 to $9,600, its travel cut from about $90,000 to $61,880 and its personnel budget nearly cut in half to $158,874, White said. That means some jobs could be cut.

Part of the Southern board's travel last year involved a controversial retreat to Philadelphia.

Southern board member Dale Atkins of New Orleans, who was interim board chairwoman during the legislative session, chalked the changes up to the "legislative process."

When asked about Fields' actions and her thoughts about the changes, Atkins declined much comment.

"I think everyone's actions speak for themselves," Atkins said.

The other major change to higher education board budgeting is that the board and system budgets are being separated by the state. Fields also pushed for that change, Antoon said.

In the past, the Legislature approved a lump sum for the system office and board budgets, Antoon said. Now, there are two separate numbers.

The only boards that receive funds for "professional development," such as continued board education are Southern and the UL System.

Fields and Anderson were placed at odds in November when sexual harassment allegations against Anderson of Southern employees became publicized. Fields called for Anderson to step down.

Anderson repeatedly has denied the allegations, claiming they are political attempts to keep him from being chairman.Credit: CAPITOL NEWS BUREAU

[melloAggiesousa]

Gawd...I would LOVE to see a home-and-home between UC Davis and Southern! AND Grambling State!

Let me get this straight...if FCS started the playoffs in December, with a championship game during the big bowl season, we'd get the Bayou Classic AND SWAC in the playoffs? Isn't that a serious win-win-win situation for everyone, including the cash-happy NCAA? The only difficulty being the SWAC championship game is after the Bayou Classic...

All other FCS championships are decided before December. Would SWAC consider this, to enter their champions as an autobid into the playoffs?

[Retro]

SUJAG, open your eyes, you can't even read.. I was talking about Athletic budget... Geez, go back and read those articles that were linked.. They clearly state the importance of the classic to you athletically. You don't need to write in odd and big letters to say nothing..

We've accepted the fact that Katrina was an excuse you used, however the whole issue was that Southern Never made any real attempt to reschedule the game.. Once the worst Mcneese team in history beat you in your own stadium, we expected Southern to find a way to back out if they could and they did and we knew that was it.. Typical SU. xrulesx

As far as facilities, I've seen your's and all those years of the bayou classic, like i said, haven't done much....

Mcneese has a new womens fieldhouse under construction, a new scoreboard with video screen was installed in 2005 just before Rita, new baseball wall put up, new grandstands under construction, new track surface and scoreboard done already, new Main fieldhouse is set to begin construction by jan 2009 at latest, new field turf likely to be installed after this season.. Whole new weight room equipment purchased this offseason and we do have a basketball arena, but we share it with rodeo events.. We also play some games at lake charles civic center downtown.. We also have a new softball field that was completed about 3 years ago..

All that without playing any so called classic games and competing for a real national title.

BTW, You have a 4 million dollar replay monitor and a 5 million dollar scoreboard.. You got ripped off big time! xoopsx

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

As far as facilities, I've seen your's and all those years of the bayou classic, like i said, haven't done much....

, new Main fieldhouse is set to begin construction by jan 2009 at latest, new field turf likely to be installed after this season.. SU's 15 million dollar one starts later this year. Money already in the bank, been there since December.


We also have a new softball field that was completed about 3 years ago..
I gave you credit for your softball field.
All that without playing any so called classic games and competing for a real national title.

BTW, You have a 4 million dollar replay monitor and a 5 million dollar scoreboard.. You got ripped off big time! xoopsxThe only Classic game SU plays in regularly is the Bayou Classic. 5 million dollar pressbox, 4 million dollar scoreboard and at the time it was built, it was the largest in 1-aa. Can you guys afford an AD yet. xlolx

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

SUJAG, open your eyes, you can't even read.. I was talking about Athletic budget... Geez, go back and read those articles that were linked.. They clearly state the importance of the classic to you athletically.


The majority of the Bayou Classic Money doesn't even go to the athletic budget, thanks to a rule passed to hold us back.


Some board members questioned whether the appropriate amount of Bayou Classic revenue was going straight to Southern's athletics department.

Since state schools cannot legally make such guarantees, the finances were shifted though the universities' private, nonprofit foundations. Today, those are the Southern University System Foundation and the Grambling Black and Gold Foundation.
Credit: Capitol news bureau

[Polywog]

I have a few (possibly stupid) questions. Please keep in mind that I'm from California and we don't have a lot of exposure to HBCU's....

1) There are severeal references to "the ICON" in this thread...who is that referring to?

2) What is the SCG?

Thanks in advance-

[SU Jag]

I think Southern (am I correct in thinking you're a Southern fan) would have to play the second half of the home-and-home with McNeese for there to be even an effort to renew the series. I don't think McNeese is so desperate for money that they would resign a deal with a school that backed out of a game in bad faith. Don't get me wrong; not playing in 2005 was understandable. Not playing the game until there was an available slot on the schedule is also understandable. But not playing at all and using an "Act of God" clause to get out of it is plain bad faith.

As to your first point, I hear you. And I submit that that's why FCS schools, which are in effect a lower level of football than FBS schools, are still able to beat the lower end of those schools for recruits! I'm not necessarily saying that FCS schools recruit better players than low-level FBS schools, but I am saying that top-level FCS schools routinely beat Sun Belt, MAC or WAC schools straight up for some prospects and Sun Belt, MAC and WAC schools are having to recruit against FCS schools to get most of their recruits, as opposed to beating, say, C-USA or SEC schools for these players.

Of course, recruiting is more nuanced than that, but in general, Sun Belt level recruits are also SLC level recruits and there's a reason for that.


Really, players like who? Tavarius Jackson, Micheal Coe, Robert Mathis, or may be you're talking about Scotty Anderson,Kenyon Hambrick,Johnny Baldwin, Chad Lucas . See a pattern? All SWAC draft picks and that aint all of them either!

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

I have a few (possibly stupid) questions. Please keep in mind that I'm from California and we don't have a lot of exposure to HBCU's....

1) There are severeal references to "the ICON" in this thread...who is that referring to?

2) What is the SCG?

Thanks in advance-

1. Grambling
2. SWAC Championship Game.

[SU Jag]

I have a few (possibly stupid) questions. Please keep in mind that I'm from California and we don't have a lot of exposure to HBCU's....

1) There are severeal references to "the ICON" in this thread...who is that referring to?

2) What is the SCG?

Thanks in advance-

1. Grambling State University
2. SWAC Championship Game

[McNeese_beat]

Certainly HBCUs are still producing some outstanding players. But the overall level is awful (at least in the SWAC) and that gets exposed whenever the SWAC teams play out of conference. I'm sure you can name a couple of dozen D-II players that are active in the NFL; that doesn't make D-II on the same level as the mainstream of the FCS.

[SU Jag]

Certainly HBCUs are still producing some outstanding players. But the overall level is awful (at least in the SWAC) and that gets exposed whenever the SWAC teams play out of conference. I'm sure you can name a couple of dozen D-II players that are active in the NFL; that doesn't make D-II on the same level as the mainstream of the FCS.

Or does it?

[McNeese_beat]

Or does it?

No it doesn't. Just as the occasional production of an NFL player does not put the SWAC on the same level as the mainstream of the FCS. I would suggest that the SWAC's record in the last 5-10 years against FCS playoff conferences is similar in winning percentage of the FCS against the mainstream of the FBS, which is to say pretty gawd-awful.

Come to think of it, I'd like a top-tier D-II team's chances against a top FCS program more than I'd like a SWAC champion's chance against a top FCS team.

And it's not because the SWAC has bad coaching or poorly-run programs. I hope you're not suggesting that. I think it's because, man for man, you have inferior teams in your league now. Seventy percent or more of the roster of a typical SWAC team couldn't play for a typical Southland team. If they could, some of these teams would actually win a game now and then against the Southland.

It used to be, they could (the last one I can remember was a very good Grambling team beating a terrible Nicholls team back in 2001, I believe it was) but those are as rare as Northwestern beating TCU nowadays.

[SU Jag]

No it doesn't. Just as the occasional production of an NFL player does not put the SWAC on the same level as the mainstream of the FCS. I would suggest that the SWAC's record in the last 5-10 years against FCS playoff conferences is similar in winning percentage of the FCS against the mainstream of the FBS, which is to say pretty gawd-awful.

Come to think of it, I'd like a top-tier D-II team's chances against a top FCS program more than I'd like a SWAC champion's chance against a top FCS team.

And it's not because the SWAC has bad coaching or poorly-run programs. I hope you're not suggesting that. I think it's because, man for man, you have inferior teams in your league now. Seventy percent or more of the roster of a typical SWAC team couldn't play for a typical Southland team. If they could, some of these teams would actually win a game now and then against the Southland.

It used to be, they could (the last one I can remember was a very good Grambling team beating a terrible Nicholls team back in 2001, I believe it was) but those are as rare as Northwestern beating TCU nowadays.


You're sick? 70%? Pass the good ***** because you damn sure know where to find it.

[McNeese75]

You're sick? 70%? Pass the good ***** because you damn sure know where to find it.

I would probably even agree with you here Jag. I think a lot of the athletes in the SWAC would be competitive in the SLC under SLC coaching and conditioning.

[SU Jag]

I would probably even agree with you here Jag. I think a lot of the athletes in the SWAC would be competitive in the SLC under SLC coaching and conditioning.

You're right on! The problem is up front. Offensive line play isnt as good. Coaching in the SWAC has gottem a lot better with Jones at AAMU, Comegy at JSU, Coach Pete at SU, and Coach Broadway at GSU.

[mikebigg]

I think Southern (am I correct in thinking you're a Southern fan) would have to play the second half of the home-and-home with McNeese for there to be even an effort to renew the series. I don't think McNeese is so desperate for money that they would resign a deal with a school that backed out of a game in bad faith. Don't get me wrong; not playing in 2005 was understandable. Not playing the game until there was an available slot on the schedule is also understandable. But not playing at all and using an "Act of God" clause to get out of it is plain bad faith.

As to your first point, I hear you. And I submit that that's why FCS schools, which are in effect a lower level of football than FBS schools, are still able to beat the lower end of those schools for recruits! I'm not necessarily saying that FCS schools recruit better players than low-level FBS schools, but I am saying that top-level FCS schools routinely beat Sun Belt, MAC or WAC schools straight up for some prospects and Sun Belt, MAC and WAC schools are having to recruit against FCS schools to get most of their recruits, as opposed to beating, say, C-USA or SEC schools for these players.

Of course, recruiting is more nuanced than that, but in general, Sun Belt level recruits are also SLC level recruits and there's a reason for that.

Definitely not SU... I'm a proud Grambling Grad (1977)

[mikebigg]

No it doesn't. Just as the occasional production of an NFL player does not put the SWAC on the same level as the mainstream of the FCS. I would suggest that the SWAC's record in the last 5-10 years against FCS playoff conferences is similar in winning percentage of the FCS against the mainstream of the FBS, which is to say pretty gawd-awful.

Come to think of it, I'd like a top-tier D-II team's chances against a top FCS program more than I'd like a SWAC champion's chance against a top FCS team.

And it's not because the SWAC has bad coaching or poorly-run programs. I hope you're not suggesting that. I think it's because, man for man, you have inferior teams in your league now. Seventy percent or more of the roster of a typical SWAC team couldn't play for a typical Southland team. If they could, some of these teams would actually win a game now and then against the Southland.

It used to be, they could (the last one I can remember was a very good Grambling team beating a terrible Nicholls team back in 2001, I believe it was) but those are as rare as Northwestern beating TCU nowadays.

Check out the score from the McNeese and Nichols game for the same year... your margin of victory was very close to the Grambling margin of victory. I do believe you guys were conference (Southland) champs that year. Our 2001 team was really good... we also went to Portland that same year in an early season game (while they were also undefeated) and rallied for a 1 point win. Keep in mind that this game was after our team had just made a bus trip too Cincinnati for a game that eventually was cancelled. Imagine the toll on the players traveling (by bus) one week on an 8hour (one way) trip and back and then traveling out to the Pacific Northwest the next week.

But that was the past... I'm concerned with the now. I think that we have hired a really good coach in Rod Broadway. We are extremely optimisitic... Also, our new AD is moving in a good direction with our scheduling. We've upgraded to include Pittsburg and ULM (a regional matchup) that should draw a lot of interest.

[McNeese75]

You're right on! The problem is up front. Offensive line play isnt as good. Coaching in the SWAC has gottem a lot better with Jones at AAMU, Comegy at JSU, Coach Pete at SU, and Coach Broadway at GSU.

I feel like (and I did at the time as well) the three McNeese wins agains Grambling and Southern were partially due to better coaching and conditioning. I read on the Grambling Fan site yesterday where the Coach commented about the team getting tired as practice proceeded from not being in shape. That certainly does not mean the team will not be ready for opening day, but if you have to concentrate on conditioning during fall camp or lose concentration from the players from fatigue it just means less time to work fine tuning the game.

Over 90% of the Cowboy players stayed in town and worked on strength and conditioning this summer. The QB's and receivers were working together on routes and timing as well. This is not necessarily something unique in FCS or FBS because I know a lot of teams encourage the same. The result of their hard work allowed the McNeese coaching staff to immediatley begin working on all aspects of the game as soon as camp began.

[McNeese75]

Check out the score from the McNeese and Nichols game for the same year... your margin of victory was very close to the Grambling margin of victory. I do believe you guys were conference (Southland) champs that year. Our 2001 team was really good... we also went to Portland that same year in an early season game (while they were also undefeated) and rallied for a 1 point win. Keep in mind that this game was after our team had just made a bus trip too Cincinnati for a game that eventually was cancelled. Imagine the toll on the players traveling (by bus) one week on an 8hour (one way) trip and back and then traveling out to the Pacific Northwest the next week.

But that was the past... I'm concerned with the now. I think that we have hired a really good coach in Rod Broadway. We are extremely optimisitic... Also, our new AD is moving in a good direction with our scheduling. We've upgraded to include Pittsburg and ULM (a regional matchup) that should draw a lot of interest.


Grambling has always been "Out There" when it comes to scheduling more competitive teams. I expect the Tiger OOC strength of schedule will improve nicely with the removal of the 9 game mandate. xnodx

[813Jag]

I feel like (and I did at the time as well) the three McNeese wins agains Grambling and Southern were partially due to better coaching and conditioning. I read on the Grambling Fan site yesterday where the Coach commented about the team getting tired as practice proceeded from not being in shape. That certainly does not mean the team will not be ready for opening day, but if you have to concentrate on conditioning during fall camp or lose concentration from the players from fatigue it just means less time to work fine tuning the game.

Over 90% of the Cowboy players stayed in town and worked on strength and conditioning this summer. The QB's and receivers were working together on routes and timing as well. This is not necessarily something unique in FCS or FBS because I know a lot of teams encourage the same. The result of their hard work allowed the McNeese coaching staff to immediatley begin working on all aspects of the game as soon as camp began.
I agree with that statement. The SWAC has had talented teams beaten due to coaching. That goes way back to the teams at Mississippi Valley with Jerry Rice. A perfect example of that is the teams Alcorn had with Steve McNair, they didn't play much defense and were horrible against the run. Youngstown St. contained McNair and ran the ball down their throat. We've lost to some less talented Nicholls teams because we got outcoached. But I do see some better coaches coming in to the league. We'll see what happens.

[McNeese_beat]

Definitely not SU... I'm a proud Grambling Grad (1977)

Well in that case, by all means, McNeese and Grambling should schedule another home and home. I think it would benefit both programs. A SWAC/Southland challenge would be a good thing in Texas/La., maybe at a couple of neutral sites for a classic atmosphere. Of course, last time around, Grambling did not want a neutral site game because it was looking to get more games on campus. Which is fine too.

[McNeese_beat]

Check out the score from the McNeese and Nichols game for the same year... your margin of victory was very close to the Grambling margin of victory. I do believe you guys were conference (Southland) champs that year. Our 2001 team was really good... we also went to Portland that same year in an early season game (while they were also undefeated) and rallied for a 1 point win. Keep in mind that this game was after our team had just made a bus trip too Cincinnati for a game that eventually was cancelled. Imagine the toll on the players traveling (by bus) one week on an 8hour (one way) trip and back and then traveling out to the Pacific Northwest the next week.

But that was the past... I'm concerned with the now. I think that we have hired a really good coach in Rod Broadway. We are extremely optimisitic... Also, our new AD is moving in a good direction with our scheduling. We've upgraded to include Pittsburg and ULM (a regional matchup) that should draw a lot of interest.

That's all true. Your 02 team had some pretty good players, but McNeese was awfully good that year. Good job on the scheduling so far. Here's hoping you go to Pitt early, that place is awful cold once late October rolls around.

Did you make the Portland trip? I love it up there. PSU is opening here and I wish they could flip sights and go play on that baseball field in downtown Portland ha.

[Jaguar79]

Get off your high horse!

Please don't act like teams are knocking down the door to get you on their schedule. Do you really think the real FCS teams will even consider southern after the way Southern handled the mcneese series.

Your still living in the past with the NFL thing... Someone posted it earlier showing the amount of SWAC players in the NFL vs the other conferences and it's not impressive.. To add, the only reason the swac has historically had a high number is because prior to integration at current major FBS colleges, the only place for the best black athletes to go was the black colleges themselves.. As that changed, the best athletes got better offers to bigger and better colleges and thus the current result...

If your doing so well financially with the bayou classic and the other classics, then why doesn't southern already have 1st class facilities in all sports? Why, because like i said before.. That game only helps balance the books.. The proof is in the pudding einstein!xreadx

If you don't care about the FCS, then why do you and others spend so much time on this board blowing smoke... The people here are talking about playing each other for a national championship not heresay.. Prove it on the field or go play some meaningless game in detroit or chicago. If you want to stay segregated, then it's your funeral!

The only reason any of us care about FCS is because that's where we were placed. You call our games meaningless, but we can say the same about yours. McNeese v. Nicholls only means something to the Southland in the grand scheme of things.

And if our playing "those" games are our funeral, why are there so many McNeese fans still B**ching over a 2005 game? Like someone else said, you know what that game would have done for your budget so don't play holier than thou.

Do you really think the rest of FCS cares about what happen in 2005 to you? Anyone with business sense would see an opportunity and take care of their business, unlike a certain AD who decided an escape clause, something used in ALL divisions of college football, was not needed.

I suggest you dismount your high horse sir and realize that your school was one of those who you believed wasn't going try this means and they did in three straight years.

[McNeese_beat]

You're sick? 70%? Pass the good ***** because you damn sure know where to find it.

I'll back off from that, but not much.
Out of a 90-man roster, that would be 21 players...I'd say that typically SWAC teams generally have had about a third of the roster, about 30 players or so, that could play in the SLC, including a pretty fair foundation of players that would be outstanding in the SLC. But, as you said, most of the linemen are subpar and depth is an issue. Of course, on a 90-man FCS roster, players 64-90 are always going to be a little shaky because these are guys who are walk-ons or on partials.

There are some teams, like that 01 Grambling team, that would be better than that. There are also some teams, like the Alcorn team McNeese ran into, that were really bad. But

[Jaguar79]

Here is what appears to be the basis for this whole convo ......

MEAC schools run behind the playoffs and hold onto the fact that FAMU won the first 1-aa championship, even though that was a different time and place.

The rest of FCS, at least represented here, either wants the Ivy and SWAC to comply even though both leagues were up, active, and in their traditions before FCS was invented. And then, if they don't comply, you want to verbally belittle their play because of that?

The SWAC took action that was best for their conference. That action has led to the highest average attendance in FCS for years (a fact not lost on several teams in the Southland Conference, among others), a different form of publicity that other FCS conferences don't get, and a tradition that is unlike many others.

Someone asked why facilities are down. I can only speak for Southern, but FCS and the playoffs have nothing to do with that for us. WE are unfortunbate to have the lack of leadership that we do at the moment. Had those things been done when they were supposed to, we would not be having convos about recruiting b/w McNeese and others, being afraid to play out of conference, etc. Some schools in our local area would not be able to touch us, IMO.

Now, every school has to do what's best for them. I love the SWAC, but I, as SU, can't give up what helps my budget for Alcorn, J-State, or AAMU. I agree about getting your OOC schedule up, BUT there is no use in doing that if you are not meeting what you need to in your athletic budget and we chose NOT to be Nebraskas, Penn State's and Florida's plaything for a day. The rest of FCS seems to live and die off of that. WE just did Tulane a few years ago and just got Houston on the schedule for next year. As much as you may not want to hear it, our fans will fill Mumford Stadium for FAMU, Tennessee State, and Bethune-Cookman. Unfortunately, not enough know about or care about Southeastern La., Texas State, Southern Illinois, and the like.

That's where it is, good or bad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The rest of FCS, at least represented here, either wants the Ivy and SWAC to comply even though both leagues were up, active, and in their traditions before FCS was invented. And then, if they don't comply, you want to verbally belittle their play because of that?


I think people are basing their opinions based upon W/L records.


The SWAC took action that was best for their conference. That action has led to the highest average attendance in FCS for years (a fact not lost on several teams in the Southland Conference, among others), a different form of publicity that other FCS conferences don't get, and a tradition that is unlike many others.

Yet, as I have to keep mentioning, the great majority of SWAC schools are struggling financially, and a significant number of these schools have been hurt by the "Classics" model. IMO I seriously doubt that the SWAC's actions ended up being best for every team in their conference. For Grambling, Southern, Jackson State, Alabama State, maybe. But not every school.

Having great attendance is a good thing. But that doesn't mean the athletic department is healthy.


Someone asked why facilities are down. I can only speak for Southern, but FCS and the playoffs have nothing to do with that for us. WE are unfortunbate to have the lack of leadership that we do at the moment. Had those things been done when they were supposed to, we would not be having convos about recruiting b/w McNeese and others, being afraid to play out of conference, etc. Some schools in our local area would not be able to touch us, IMO.

You really don't see the link between a healthy athletics department and poor facilities? I'd think you'd want every school in the SWAC to be looking at an overhaul of everything that they're doing in order to get competitive with the rest of FCS, not defending the Classics model to the death. Could it be the "Classic model" - and the "leadership's adherence to that " - is part of the problem?


Now, every school has to do what's best for them. I love the SWAC, but I, as SU, can't give up what helps my budget for Alcorn, J-State, or AAMU. I agree about getting your OOC schedule up, BUT there is no use in doing that if you are not meeting what you need to in your athletic budget and we chose NOT to be Nebraskas, Penn State's and Florida's plaything for a day. The rest of FCS seems to live and die off of that. WE just did Tulane a few years ago and just got Houston on the schedule for next year. As much as you may not want to hear it, our fans will fill Mumford Stadium for FAMU, Tennessee State, and Bethune-Cookman. Unfortunately, not enough know about or care about Southeastern La., Texas State, Southern Illinois, and the like.

Most of the rest of FCS lives and dies off of that since it provides much-needed money to their athletics departments, keeping them healthy. And Grambling - supposedly the shining light to which all the other folks who want to follow the "Classics model" aspire to - has been the most active in scheduling FBS games, followed closely by Southern. Isn't that an indicator that the "Classics model" may not be working completely?

[Jaguar79]

I'll back off from that, but not much.
Out of a 90-man roster, that would be 21 players...I'd say that typically SWAC teams generally have had about a third of the roster, about 30 players or so, that could play in the SLC, including a pretty fair foundation of players that would be outstanding in the SLC. But, as you said, most of the linemen are subpar and depth is an issue. Of course, on a 90-man FCS roster, players 64-90 are always going to be a little shaky because these are guys who are walk-ons or on partials.

There are some teams, like that 01 Grambling team, that would be better than that. There are also some teams, like the Alcorn team McNeese ran into, that were really bad. But

The ONLY difference between the leagues is the coaches. The Southland is a traditional running league and the SWAC is a passing league. When the two combine, if the Southland team has any type of secondary worth anything, they can stop MOST SWAC teams. Prime example was the SU-Mcneese 2004 matchup. Some Cowboys here would lead you to believe they whipped the floor with SU, BUT they won 37-24 and had to hold us off. They did curtail the pass and that's how they won.

The players aren't any better ..... they are just geared for a different type of football.

[Jaguar79]

I think people are basing their opinions based upon W/L records.
---- Hence, you have coaches, like my own, who state that we get blasted for not playing PWC OOC games for competition, but you get fired if you lose those games and end up with a 5-6 record. And the school gets little in return as far as monetary gains b/c the majority of you don't return the trip and when you do, you send your team and maybe 100 people. McNeese was the exception in 2004.

Yet, as I have to keep mentioning, the great majority of SWAC schools are struggling financially, and a significant number of these schools have been hurt by the "Classics" model. IMO I seriously doubt that the SWAC's actions ended up being best for every team in their conference. For Grambling, Southern, Jackson State, Alabama State, maybe. But not every school.

---- The great majority of FCS schools are doing the same without the classics.

Having great attendance is a good thing. But that doesn't mean the athletic department is healthy.

---- True, if you have incompetence running the program.

You really don't see the link between a healthy athletics department and poor facilities? I'd think you'd want every school in the SWAC to be looking at an overhaul of everything that they're doing in order to get competitive with the rest of FCS, not defending the Classics model to the death. Could it be the "Classic model" - and the "leadership's adherence to that " - is part of the problem?

---- Competitive with FCS? That's what you don't get. We want facilities to be better than FCS. Attendance wise, we got you. Facilities would push us past you. Every conference has it's "bread winners". The classics should help that if the money was put into the right place. I can only speak for my school, but if playing games was the only way to build your facilities, playing Lehigh would be a distant thought. Playing App State would be too. Your fans are conditioned to playing these schools .... many of mine could care less.

Most of the rest of FCS lives and dies off of that since it provides much-needed money to their athletics departments, keeping them healthy. And Grambling - supposedly the shining light to which all the other folks who want to follow the "Classics model" aspire to - has been the most active in scheduling FBS games, followed closely by Southern. Isn't that an indicator that the "Classics model" may not be working completely?

---- Grambling is a case all of it's own. They have a history of going wherever because (1) exposure and (2) location. They would not be able to sustain their budget with five or six games in Robinson Stadium .... their attendance up there for games not involving Alcorn, Jackson, or other BCF powers should let you know.
---- Southern, on the other hand, has been able to do this with the Bayou Classic as the backbone. WE can fill Mumford with FAMU, Jackson, etc. and still get better than average numbers with a McNeese, Northwestern State or SELa.

Fact is, I don't know too many FCS schools looking to bring in UAPB, PVU or MVSU. The same could be said for the "lower" levels of the MEAC. So, if the Classic model doesn't work for them, what makes you think playing FCS would when many of the FCS schools are going to ask those schools to come to them.

[Bison4Life]

interesting debate

[McNeese_beat]

Here is what appears to be the basis for this whole convo ......

MEAC schools run behind the playoffs and hold onto the fact that FAMU won the first 1-aa championship, even though that was a different time and place.

The rest of FCS, at least represented here, either wants the Ivy and SWAC to comply even though both leagues were up, active, and in their traditions before FCS was invented. And then, if they don't comply, you want to verbally belittle their play because of that?

The SWAC took action that was best for their conference. That action has led to the highest average attendance in FCS for years (a fact not lost on several teams in the Southland Conference, among others), a different form of publicity that other FCS conferences don't get, and a tradition that is unlike many others.

Someone asked why facilities are down. I can only speak for Southern, but FCS and the playoffs have nothing to do with that for us. WE are unfortunbate to have the lack of leadership that we do at the moment. Had those things been done when they were supposed to, we would not be having convos about recruiting b/w McNeese and others, being afraid to play out of conference, etc. Some schools in our local area would not be able to touch us, IMO.

Now, every school has to do what's best for them. I love the SWAC, but I, as SU, can't give up what helps my budget for Alcorn, J-State, or AAMU. I agree about getting your OOC schedule up, BUT there is no use in doing that if you are not meeting what you need to in your athletic budget and we chose NOT to be Nebraskas, Penn State's and Florida's plaything for a day. The rest of FCS seems to live and die off of that. WE just did Tulane a few years ago and just got Houston on the schedule for next year. As much as you may not want to hear it, our fans will fill Mumford Stadium for FAMU, Tennessee State, and Bethune-Cookman. Unfortunately, not enough know about or care about Southeastern La., Texas State, Southern Illinois, and the like.

That's where it is, good or bad.

Heck you guys do get a guarantee check every year...it's called the Bayou Classic! You don't need a Nebraska on your schedule.

How about this possibility...you and Grambling become football-only independents (alas Notre Dame), that way allowing the SWAC to get back into the playoffs. I'm sure most of your SWAC opponents would still want to play you because of the crowds that Grambling and Jaguar Nation bring to the table. Plus you can play the Bayou Classic and make money on that. Maybe you can also set up a classic toward the end of the year between the Bayou Classic winner and a HBCU of the bayou classic winner's invitation. Play in and Indy Stadium, Tad Gormley, Tiger Stadium, or wherever. Maybe even Houston, considering the number of SWAC fans there.

Just thinking outside the box for something that might work for everybody

[mikebigg]

The Classic model was the brainchild of Coach Robinson who also served during most of his coaching tenure as AD... once during the 80's when folks questioned him having the dual role, the president promoted him to Vice President of Athletic Affairs xlolx Anyway, it was a successful business model and gave us tremendous publicity and made a lot of money for our school. It was a model that helped us to expand our fanbase but most importantly our recruiting base. We even played the first (to my knowledge) college game in Japan. We played (and beat) the University of Hawaii, Temple, Oregon State (twice) with the last time being in the mid 80's.

They still work for us, but he had to curtail them because once our conference expanded we didn't have schedule flexibility. Our classics were typically early season games. Even our season opener against Alcorn used to be played as The "Red River" Classic in Shreveport before it became a home and home. Later the UAPB game became the Red River Classic and had a good early run until UAPB expanded their home stadium. Ironically, we played them last year and again this year in "neutral site" Little Rock as part of the Delta Literary Classic which is headed by Dr. Fitz Hill (former coach at San Jose State) who is now College President at Arkansas Baptist (?). But Classics have always worked for Grambling!

However, I don't think our present AD is looking to continue the Classic Model approach. It worked well for us and was a brilliant idea...but now I think the focus will be on increasing season ticket sales by having a much more attractive home and home package. I just hope we don't lock in with any one particular team, but rather give everyone a little taste of the ICON. xthumbsupx

[FormerPokeCenter]

The Classic model was the brainchild of Coach Robinson who also served during most of his coaching tenure as AD... once during the 80's when folks questioned him having the dual role, the president promoted him to Vice President of Athletic Affairs xlolx Anyway, it was a successful business model and gave us tremendous publicity and made a lot of money for our school. It was a model that helped us to expand our fanbase but most importantly our recruiting base. We even played the first (to my knowledge) college game in Japan. We played (and beat) the University of Hawaii, Temple, Oregon State (twice) with the last time being in the mid 80's.

They still work for us, but he had to curtail them because once our conference expanded we didn't have schedule flexibility. Our classics were typically early season games. Even our season opener against Alcorn used to be played as The "Red River" Classic in Shreveport before it became a home and home. Later the UAPB game became the Red River Classic and had a good early run until UAPB expanded their home stadium. Ironically, we played them last year and again this year in "neutral site" Little Rock as part of the Delta Literary Classic which is headed by Dr. Fitz Hill (former coach at San Jose State) who is now College President at Arkansas Baptist (?). But Classics have always worked for Grambling!

However, I don't think our present AD is looking to continue the Classic Model approach. It worked well for us and was a brilliant idea...but now I think the focus will be on increasing season ticket sales by having a much more attractive home and home package. I just hope we don't lock in with any one particular team, but rather give everyone a little taste of the ICON. xthumbsupx


Actually, Mike, the Bayou Classic was the brain child of Collie Nicholson, who passed away a year or two ago, not too long before Coach Rob did....

I'm sure they worked on it together, but even Coach Rob gave Mr. Nicholson credit for the concept....Nicholson also first conceptualized taking Grambling overseas when they played games in Japan and England, and he got them into major venues all over the US.

I had occasion to speak at length with Mr. Nicholson during the course of my day job investigating tractor trailer accidents, after he was involved in a wreck that wasn't his fault. I asked coach Rob about him, later, when I interviewed him for my occasional part-time gig as a stringer for the Shreveport Times....

They were both very classy individuals.

[Go...gate]

My major points are this if I have managed to confuse everyone.

1.)Why lobby for complete HBCU inclusion now that the FCS is possibly being threatened by the FBS? Why only now, when the FCS has had 40 years plus to do this?

The reason is money. If it wasn't a money thing, no one would care except US/HBCU supporters.

2.)If during this observation period, NCAA guidelines and rulings regress and become even more stringent on HBCUs that want participate in the FCS Division fully, whether already in this Division or attempting to move up into this division ... then serious discussions will arise regarding whether we should continue in the FCS.

3.)And if necessary, we are fully capable of prospering outside of the FCS.

Furthermore...

4.) Why is it that when the FCS was being developed 40 plus years ago, that such rules were not set up so that the FCS HBCUs could INITIALLY be fully included ... from the start, why were there rules set up against certain HBCU traditions?

5.)Why should HBCUs alter our traditions, when our traditions predate the FCS?

Nevertheless...

6.)I am still a proud MEAC Fan and I remain supportive of the FCS Playoffs...

7.) ... until I find that through future FCS rules and regulations that participating in the FCS becomes even more hurtful to HBCUs.

8.)I'm not advocating FCS separation, I'm advocating complete inclusion for Alabama State, Grambling, Southern, and possiblythe two teams participating in the SWAC Championship game.

Not sure I agree with this, but perhaps I misunderstand and I hope somebody will clarify. You also have to consider the intra-divisional ban that is being imposed and the probable imposition of a scholarship minimum. When the dust clears, IMO, FCS could be much different - no Ivy League, no Pioneer League, possibly no Patriot League (in whole or part), and likely additions of many members from the present Mountain West, WAC, Big West and Mid-American conferences. Such a result will produce a stronger and deeper FCS. Are you saying that the HBCU's will not want to step up to this? If not, they may end up much like the FCS leagues listed above - either with no place to go or as part of a new division.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

The score was 35-18 and that was the worst McNeese team in recent history. The 03 and 02 McNeese teams would have won that game by 50, if they had wanted to. That Southern team was not comparable to the Grambling teams the 02 and 03 McNeese teams played and even those teams were not comparable to McNeese.

I think it's a misconception on your part that the SLC doesn't pass. Just a couple of years ago, you had Hal Mumme coaching at SLU and running his "Air Raid" and Texas State running the Texas Tech offense. Plus, Sam Houston has become a passing team with transfer studs like McCown, Long and now Rhett Bomar running their offense. Even Northwestern produced Craig Nall although they do run the ball.

Plus the SLC has won a lot of big playoff games against passing teams, like in 2002 when they beat Montana State, Montana, and Villanova to reach the championship games. All three of those teams liked to throw the ball. In 1997, they beat Montana and the Hawaiian quarterback Brian Ah Yat who was very prolific. So it's not accurate to say the Southland is a "run" league. It's a balanced league. This year, I'll bet Sam Houston throws 70 percent of the time, but Nicholls, well they are a triple-option team so they are a running team. And I would bet there is more than one future NFL quarterback in the league right now.SU's 04 team lost 18 players, mostly starters in the preseason, prior to the start of the season due to grades. Most mc fans on this board are aware of that. McNeese wouldn't have beat SU 03, and 93-99, and thats a fact.
Prior to 99, we were killing Northwestern. We lost our Strength and Conditioning coach to the Kansas City Chiefs and we haven't been the same since.

[mikebigg]

Actually, Mike, the Bayou Classic was the brain child of Collie Nicholson, who passed away a year or two ago, not too long before Coach Rob did....

I'm sure they worked on it together, but even Coach Rob gave Mr. Nicholson credit for the concept....Nicholson also first conceptualized taking Grambling overseas when they played games in Japan and England, and he got them into major venues all over the US.

I had occasion to speak at length with Mr. Nicholson during the course of my day job investigating tractor trailer accidents, after he was involved in a wreck that wasn't his fault. I asked coach Rob about him, later, when I interviewed him for my occasional part-time gig as a stringer for the Shreveport Times....

They were both very classy individuals.

Trust me, all Gramblinites know the important role that Mr. Collie Nicholson played in our history. He's part of the Grambling Triumvirate: Pres. RWE Jones (Lake Charles native), Mr. Nicholson, and Coach Robinson. I didn't mention them because most on here wouldn't have known who I was talking about. But those three worked so well together and had a shared vision. Truly was a class man and true Gramblinite.

Check out this article from Nick Derison whose coverage of Grambling is without peer.

http://www.onnidan.com/05-06/news/may/gsu0508.htm


Thanks for the good words about a true Grambling ICON, Mr. Collie J. Nicholson.

[Go...gate]

Trust me, all Gramblinites know the important role that Mr. Collie Nicholson played in our history. He's part of the Grambling Triumvirate: Pres. RWE Jones (Lake Charles native), Mr. Nicholson, and Coach Robinson. I didn't mention them because most on here wouldn't have known who I was talking about. But those three worked so well together and had a shared vision. Truly was a class man and true Gramblinite.

Check out this article from Nick Derison whose coverage of Grambling is without peer.

http://www.onnidan.com/05-06/news/may/gsu0508.htm


Thanks for the good words about a true Grambling ICON, Mr. Collie J. Nicholson.


How about Fred Hobdy? Willis Reed, one of the people I have most admired in all sports, always spoke very highly of him from his Grambling experience.

[mikebigg]

How about Fred Hobdy? Willis Reed, one of the people I have most admired in all sports, always spoke very highly of him from his Grambling experience.

Hobdy is definitely a Grambling legend, and contributed as Head Basketball Coach. Most people don't realize it but he's the winningest coach in Louisiana Basketball history and the last college coach in Louisiana to win a National Championship (NAIA) . BTW...Coach Robinson also once coached the basketball team to an NAIA championship

Didn't mean to slight Coach Hobdy! Willis Reed was "just" a good player (lol) and student. Can't lift him up to high on the pedestal... goes against our motto: "The School Where Everybody Is Somebody".

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Southern would NOT have beaten McNeese in 2003, nor any other year mentioned. Southern had the chance to play McNeese in 2003, but after Grambling got spanked 52-20, Southern wouldn't return the "unsigned" contract.

That's right, Southern refused to return the "unsigned" contract. They didn't return the document unsigned, they - for some reason - wouldn't return the "unsigned" document and made the announcement about three days after McNeese dismantled Grambling.

Prior to that game, Southern was all gung-ho to get a piece of the action. Once they saw how Grambling got handled with ease, they wanted no part. It's okay....when you're skeered, you just need to say you're skeered....

McNeese was loaded for bear in 2002 and 2003. Southern figured the coast would be clear in 2004, and they were right. McNeese in 2004 wasn't the McNeese it normally is, but they still managed to beat southern by three full touchdowns. Yes, clearly that's holding somebody off at the end...

So, what's to be taken from all this, you ask? Southern ducked McNeese when McNeese was loaded. They rescheduled, thinking they timed it right to catch McNeese in a down year. They got spanked and then - understandably - cancelled the return game in the wake of Katrina, but have punked out since then.

In accordance with the name of the thread, it's true, the SWAC doesn't need the rest of the division. What they need are easier opponents so they can win more...
SU got paid $375,000 plus expenses to play in the Las Vegas Classic in 2003. Thats why SU didn't start the series that year. Nobody's scared of mcneese. Why should we be. We played Tulane, and will play Houston next season. It just doesn't make sense money wise to play yall.

[FCSFAN]

Name me one kid who dreamed of playing in Chattanooga?Bruce Eugene, he said so. "I'd like to play for the championship but I don't control that."

[HIU 93]

MEAC schools run behind the playoffs and hold onto the fact that FAMU won the first 1-aa championship, even though that was a different time and place.

We ain't running behind schitt. I have been on this site DEFENDING the SWAC for years. Check the posts. I have said on numerous occasions that you have the right to do whatever you please, as do we.

[McNeese_beat]

Well not just the strength and conditioning coach. We lost Cliff Yoshida( Gramblings new defensive coordinator), and Mike Vite. SU lead 1-aa in defense several years under those 2. SU's current defensive coordinator has no clue on how to stop the run, although he knows how to defend the pass.

From what you were saying, stopping the pass is what wins the SWAC...