Scholarships in the Patriot League

[carney2]

The following story appeared in todays' (8/2) Morning Call (Allentown, PA). It is the loudest drumbeat yet for football scholarships in the Patriot League, and the first time that I have heard open discussions by the coaches and the first time that I have heard that it is to be discussed by the presidents of the League schools. These facts alone make it a big step forward.

http://www.mcall.com/sports/college/all-fbc-plsidebar.5978092aug02,0,4967023.story

[gotribe]

It appears that wiithout athletic schoalrships, the future of the Patriot leage as a D1AA conference is definitely at risk. Unfortunately, I could see those them having little choice but to move to D3 level. That would be a step backwards, but that's the level of play the conference would be performing at vs. other D1AAs.

Having the ability to offer at least half football scholarships would open up a large pool of athletes who's family could justify a Georgetown education for $25k/ year.

[MplsBison]

Scholarships are under discussion to increase the athletic and academic talent pool, but this league was founded on a principle of need-based financial aid.


As long as the player is accepted into the school on his academic merit, his financial need shouldn't be taken into consideration.


A player whose family makes 200k a year should get the same scholarship as a player whose family makes 30k a year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think more than the subject matter and the talks, what's really significant about this are the two coaches mentioned in the article: Tom Gilmore and Kevin Kelly. The source wasn't an outspoken advocate for change like coach Tavani. They are both from schools which are thought to have been very anti-scholarship in the past...

It's interesting that the football coaches are almost a united front on this. The next interesting thing will be to see about the league presidents, who are going to make the final decisions. Now, I don't know how much they listen to their coaches on this, and there are other parties that need to be heard from on this too (i.e. academia at the schools).

Interesting stuff. xreadx

[dbackjon]

It is hypocritical of PL schools to offer schollies in all sports BUT football. Very dishonest policy.

[carney2]

I think more than the subject matter and the talks, what's really significant about this are the two coaches mentioned in the article: Tom Gilmore and Kevin Kelly. The source wasn't an outspoken advocate for change like coach Tavani. They are both from schools which are thought to have been very anti-scholarship in the past...

It's interesting that the football coaches are almost a united front on this. The next interesting thing will be to see about the league presidents, who are going to make the final decisions. Now, I don't know how much they listen to their coaches on this, and there are other parties that need to be heard from on this too (i.e. academia at the schools).

Interesting stuff. xreadx

Agreed, and more than "interesting." This single article may be the biggest piece of news to come out of the Patriot League in years. Consider:

1. People are talking for attribution. There are no anonymous sources here.

2. The coaches - all of them - are involved.

3. A "case" is being made (losing OOC record and fear of losing the auto-bid).

4. The League presidents are about to become involved.

This is big news. The only strange thing that I have seen is that last evening at an alumni gathering, the usually outspoken Frank Tavani was specifically asked about this issue and about League expansion. He seemed to duck both questions. At the very least he gave no indication that this kind of a coaches meeting had taken place earlier in the day.

[DetroitFlyer]

Football scholarships would further remove the PL from the Ivy League ideal that the league was founded on.... Of course coaches are going to want the system that allows them to recruit the best players in order to remain competitive. It will be interesting to see if the powers that be in the PL can ever come to grips with the simple fact that there is now and always has been and always will be only one Ivy League. The PFL has hinted over the years that we are also trying to emulate the Ivy League.... Well guess what, Morehead State is no Cornell and never will be.... Dayton will never be Harvard. For the PL, unlike the PFL, money does not seem to be the issue. PL teams are already at the top of the list when it comes to funding football, it is simply a matter of how the money is spent, ( "need based aid" or "athletic scholarships" ). If simple logic were at play here, the PL would be offering scholarships tomorrow. Of course that is not the case and too many PL schools still cling to the notion that they are Ivy League lite.... I predict that it is going to be very, very difficult for the admins and the profs, etc. to admit that Lafayette is no Harvard and never will be.... This "hang-up" is going to make the football scholarship issue a very hard pill to swallow for the elite community that likes to hold football up to a higher standard than any other sport at a school.... Very frustrating for us football fans, but a reality that exists in the PL and elsewhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agreed, and more than "interesting." This single article may be the biggest piece of news to come out of the Patriot League in years. Consider:

1. People are talking for attribution. There are no anonymous sources here.

2. The coaches - all of them - are involved.

3. A "case" is being made (losing OOC record and fear of losing the auto-bid).

4. The League presidents are about to become involved.

This is big news. The only strange thing that I have seen is that last evening at an alumni gathering, the usually outspoken Frank Tavani was specifically asked about this issue and about League expansion. He seemed to duck both questions. At the very least he gave no indication that this kind of a caoches meeting had taken place earlier in the day.

I agree, this is big news. I'd say that the pressure on the league presidents from the coaches is more than I can ever remember and more PUBLIC pressure than ever. To be fair, I think that the meeting with the league presidents isn't just about scholarships per se: it's about all the issues around it: the AI, what the presidents want the league to be, etc.

I think the most interesting quote, interestingly, comes from Ms. Femovich:

'
'Scholarships are under discussion to increase the athletic and academic talent pool, but this league was founded on a principle of need-based financial aid. So, it's a philosophical question as well as a competitive one.''

I continue to feel that the Patriot League has a real opportunity to lead nationally on this - how to balance great academics and great athletics without compromising either.

I talked to Ms. Femovich about this (and other topics) yesterday. I'm seeing that the need to put this on CSN quickly is of the essence. I don't think the interview will have the same impact as this article, but I will try to get it done.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Football scholarships would further remove the PL from the Ivy League ideal that the league was founded on.... It will be interesting to see if the powers that be in the PL can ever come to grips with the simple fact that there is now and always has been and always will be only one Ivy League. For the PL, unlike the PFL, money does not seem to be the issue. PL teams are already at the top of the list when it comes to funding football, it is simply a matter of how the money is spent, ( "need based aid" or "athletic scholarships" ). If simple logic were at play here, the PL would be offering scholarships tomorrow. Of course that is not the case and too many PL schools still cling to the notion that they are Ivy League lite.... I predict that it is going to be very, very difficult for the admins and the profs, etc. to admit that Lafayette is no Harvard and never will be.... This "hang-up" is going to make the football scholarship issue a very hard pill to swallow for the elite community that likes to hold football up to a higher standard than any other sport at a school.... Very frustrating for us football fans, but a reality that exists in the PL and elsewhere.

DF, you do touch some of the right notes here, namely about potential resistance for academia to go towards scholarships. One thing I will mention, however, is that one of the unstated agents for this new stance of the coaches is the lack of competitiveness with the Ivy league.

The Ivy League's form of AI is no longer like the PL's. Some Ivy League schools can recruit significantly below the theoretical AI limit for almost all of the PL schools. That, along with some of the new aid policies around some Ivy schools meaning that parents making less than ($65?)K a year basically are guaranteed a free ride, has unsurprisingly made the Ivy much more competitive in a short time. A lot is said about the PL no longer being competitive, that they're slipping; to me, more really should be said about the resurgence of the Ivy League and how it came about.

It's not just the PL that is saying things: schools like STANFORD are complaining that Ivy League schools are nabbing their football recruits.

What you could say is: would academia folks want to stay with a flawed system that will ultimately mean we get the crap beaten out of us by the Ivies on a regular basis? In a way, we need to keep up with the Ivies. And would those folks accept scholarships - paired with tough AI standards - to accomodate that?

[Franks Tanks]

It appears that wiithout athletic schoalrships, the future of the Patriot leage as a D1AA conference is definitely at risk. Unfortunately, I could see those them having little choice but to move to D3 level. That would be a step backwards, but that's the level of play the conference would be performing at vs. other D1AAs.

Having the ability to offer at least half football scholarships would open up a large pool of athletes who's family could justify a Georgetown education for $25k/ year.

The Patriot league will not be Division III --Please. Even in a total worse case doomsday scenario the PL will still be better than the PFL, and its a mute point anyway as scholarships are coming

[Pard94]

Football scholarships would further remove the PL from the Ivy League ideal that the league was founded on.... Of course coaches are going to want the system that allows them to recruit the best players in order to remain competitive. It will be interesting to see if the powers that be in the PL can ever come to grips with the simple fact that there is now and always has been and always will be only one Ivy League. The PFL has hinted over the years that we are also trying to emulate the Ivy League.... Well guess what, Morehead State is no Cornell and never will be.... Dayton will never be Harvard. For the PL, unlike the PFL, money does not seem to be the issue. PL teams are already at the top of the list when it comes to funding football, it is simply a matter of how the money is spent, ( "need based aid" or "athletic scholarships" ). If simple logic were at play here, the PL would be offering scholarships tomorrow. Of course that is not the case and too many PL schools still cling to the notion that they are Ivy League lite.... I predict that it is going to be very, very difficult for the admins and the profs, etc. to admit that Lafayette is no Harvard and never will be.... This "hang-up" is going to make the football scholarship issue a very hard pill to swallow for the elite community that likes to hold football up to a higher standard than any other sport at a school.... Very frustrating for us football fans, but a reality that exists in the PL and elsewhere.


All valid points Detroit. I would say, however, theat there has been a fundamental shift over the last 5-10 years. I think the only ones who still harbor some dream of being Ivy-like are possibly a couple of preseidents and some ridiculously out of touch members of the faculty. I think certainly the coaches and most of the athleic staffs of the PL instiutions have long stopped apologizing for not being Harvard and Yale. In fact, the mantra now is, "we don't want to be Harvard or Yale". The scholarship issue is the last remaining obstacle (albeit a huge one) for the Patriot League to turn itself into one of the premier FCS leagues in the nation. I am quite confident that a PL with scholarships would, at the very least, signifcantly change the dynamics of East Coast football. I don't think it is a stretch to think that, with the drawing power of the PL schools and scholarships, a PL representative could be ranked in the top 10 almost on a regular basis.

This article is HUGE. This isn't a subject that needs to be whispred any longer. The train has left the station...my prediction...full schollies in the PL in 5 years or less.xnodx

[Pard94]

The Patriot league will not be Division III --Please. Even in a total worse case doomsday scenario the PL will still be better than the PFL, and its a mute point anyway as scholarships are coming

I agree FT. The League would disband and teams would go elsewhere before we went DIII. Lafayette has 30 million reasons alone why it will never again consider DIII.

[RichH2]

Absolutely the most interesting and best news to come out of a media day in recorded history.

Will the PL act and if so quickly enuf to prevent a continued meltdown OOC??
The dichotomy between scholarships in all but football should ease the path for some of the more timid schools. The real danger is that they will get lost in studies and committees and various minutae. Drag it out long enuf and the schools committed to the best athletic and academic programs will be gone. Thee CAA may become a 20 team conference.

[MplsBison]

I don't view the PL, IL, PFL model as holding football players to a higher standard.


I view it as the academic elite's hate for football.

They hate the game with passion.

They view it as barbaric warplay that civilized humans should not support just as Romans supported the gladiators.

[DetroitFlyer]

A PL with true athletic scholarships would be a force to be reckoned with.... I would think that some AI would still exist, but it would make it possible to recruit against the Ivy League for certain. It would also help against the NEC to a degree....

Where I still struggle is how is a school or conference that is determined to maintain academic integrity can ever compete against good ole State U? I think the only requirement for a scholarship at State U is to meet the absolute minimum admittance requirements. So, the pool of potential players is vast, from the minimum qualifiers up to the Rhodes Scholars.

The PFL actually benefits here a bit.... A kid that desires a top notch education from an excellent school but does not have the grades and/or test scores for the Ivy League or PL, can play in the PFL. I see alot of kids with HS GPA's of 3.2 to 3.4 with decent but not stellar ACT/SAT scores. Typically, I think these kids are on the bottom of the PL scale and maybe not on the Ivy radar at all. Of course they could go to State U, but many desire the education their PFL school can provide so the need based and / or academic aid package is enough to land the player. Scholarships are not going to help the PL with these players unless the AI is significantly altered. Kids in this group could almost certainly perform OK at a PL school, but most will not get the chance....

Even so, a NEC state school has a much broader pool of candidates to choose from versus a PL with scholarships. The grim reality is that there are only so many top notch players with great grades and scores to go around. With Stanford, the Ivies, the PL, the PFL, and others chasing these kids, it is going to be tough sledding no matter what, scholarships or not.

How would the PL AI need to be altered in addition to scholarships to really make the PL competitive with say the Southern or Gateway Conference? Is it possible to be competitive while maintaining academic integrity outside of the Ivy League? Stanford has certainly struggled....

[gotribe]

Without some change, the PL can continue to believe their Ivy...which, I'm sorry, they're not. They can also continue on getting their brains beat in by the D1AA football scholarship schools and be content that they're just a better academic option, on par with the Ivy and Stanford (TIC).

Or, be faced with this: your son gets offered a ride play at W&M and "financial assitance" of sorts to attend Georgetown. Given those two particualr schools, what's the choice?

[carney2]

Absolutely the most interesting and best news to come out of a media day in recorded history.

Will the PL act and if so quickly enuf to prevent a continued meltdown OOC??The dichotomy between scholarships in all but football should ease the path for some of the more timid schools. The real danger is that they will get lost in studies and committees and various minutae. Drag it out long enuf and the schools committed to the best athletic and academic programs will be gone. Thee CAA may become a 20 team conference.

Valid points indeed. The key here is the faculty at the seven institutions. At most institutions the faculty is at odds with, and jealous of, the athletic department, it's influence with the alumni and high visibility. The question, therefore, is how much influence does the faculty as a whole have at your institution.

At Lafayette, for instance, the faculty was the puppeteer for Pinocchio Rothkopf. He danced to their tune and they loved him for it. Weiss seems to be his own man in these matters, but (and not a minor point) after basketball scholarships and the new Taj MaFootball, will he now feel that the "new guy" has gone as far as he can for now. I have no inside information. I'm just spit balling.

It is interesting to note that at last evening's session with the alumni, when the subject of football scholarships came up, Lafayette's Frank Tavani did say that if the others have them and he doesn't (a statement that I took as a reference to the years that the aforementioned Artie Rothkopf left the basketball programs high and dry while the rest of the League was granting scholarships) then you would begin to see signs advertising "Tavani's Lawn and Landscape Service" all over town.

[gotribe]

Also seems like the PL would be far more competitve in football vs. D2 schools and no doubt be a better academic option (by a mile), even though D2 schools give football scholarships. Although, I think across the board the PL schools & alumni cringe at the notion of being lumped in with Edinboro (no offense against Edinboro) rather than than Ivy.

Again, they can cruise along as an Ivy wannabe as tuition costs continue to sky rocket and live with their level of competitiveness.

Or, take a bold step that drives level of play through some type of athletic scholarship program that aligns them with the more competitve D1AA teams.

I'm hoping for bold over status quo for the sake of the league.

[Go...gate]

Valid points indeed. The key here is the faculty at the seven institutions. At most institutions the faculty is at odds with, and jealous of, the athletic department, it's influence with the alumni and high visibility. The question, therefore, is how much influence does the faculty as a whole have at your institution.

At Lafayette, for instance, the faculty was the pupeteer for Pinocchio Rothkopf. He danced to their tune every time and they loved him for it. Weiss seems to be his own man in these matters, but (and not a minor point) after basketball scholarships and the new Taj MaFootball, will he now feel that the "new guy" has gone as far as he can for now. I have no inside information. I'm just spit balling.

It is interesting to note that at last evening's session with the alumni, when the subject of football scholarships came up, Lafayette's Frank Tavani did say that if the others have them and he doesn't (a statement that I took as a reference to the years that the aforementioned Artie Rothkopf left the basketball programs high and dry while the rest of the League was granting scholarships) then you would begin to see signs advertising "Tavani's Lawn and Landscape Service" all over town.


This remains a problem at Colgate, but we have a more enlightened President and Trustees with regard to sports. The fact they went to scholarships for non-fb sports was monumental at Colgate from a philosophical standpoint, as for fifty-five years or more (dating way back to the pre-Ivy League "Ivy Group" days, we informally followed the Ivy guidelines in lock-step fashion.

Regrettably, for a lot of Colgate alumni (including, candidly, myself), as well as older (and now retired or deceased) faculty and administrators, it never got us in the Ivy League.

IMO, Colgate's President and Trustees will take the next step and go to scholarships, which may mean the Ivies will not play us as much, on the other hand, will broaden Colgate's galaxy of peer schools - not just the PL and Ivy, but also schools like Rice, Vanderbilt, Duke, Northwestern, Stanford, SMU, Wofford, Furman, Wake Forest, Air Force, William & Mary, VMI, Citadel, Richmond and others.

[RichH2]

IMHO PL has almost outgrown their initial Ivy League Lite outlook.
Can a comprehensive plan for athletic scholarships be formulated that will satisfy the various schools?
Do we go to full or ltd scholarships or allow them and let each school finance them as best they can? If we go schollie PL should have a minimum level, imagine LU and LC at max and GU at 15, FU at 22 etc

[Franks Tanks]

Without some change, the PL can continue to believe their Ivy...which, I'm sorry, they're not. They can also continue on getting their brains beat in by the D1AA football scholarship schools and be content that they're just a better academic option, on par with the Ivy and Stanford (TIC).

Or, be faced with this: your son gets offered a ride play at W&M and "financial assitance" of sorts to attend Georgetown. Given those two particualr schools, what's the choice?

Your agrument is not valid as the Patriot League doesnt get its "brains beat" by scholarship schools. Sure we would like to win more games against scholarship schools, and it remains to be seen if last year was a blip or the start of a trend. But over the last 10 years we have been competitive with the A-10/CAA and in the playoffs.

Also you are obviously new here as I believe every PL poster is in favor of scholarships are are tired of the grant in aid as a philosophy game even though our spend is on par with most eastern scholarship schools

[ngineer]

Agreed, and more than "interesting." This single article may be the biggest piece of news to come out of the Patriot League in years. Consider:

1. People are talking for attribution. There are no anonymous sources here.

2. The coaches - all of them - are involved.

3. A "case" is being made (losing OOC record and fear of losing the auto-bid).

4. The League presidents are about to become involved.

This is big news. The only strange thing that I have seen is that last evening at an alumni gathering, the usually outspoken Frank Tavani was specifically asked about this issue and about League expansion. He seemed to duck both questions. At the very least he gave no indication that this kind of a coaches meeting had taken place earlier in the day.

Frank's still in shock over being selected as the favorite this year..:D

[DFW HOYA]

Valid points indeed. The key here is the faculty at the seven institutions. At most institutions the faculty is at odds with, and jealous of, the athletic department, it's influence with the alumni and high visibility. The question, therefore, is how much influence does the faculty as a whole have at your institution.

This isn't the big issue at Georgetown or Fordham because athletic scholarships are already part of the equation...the larger issue is how to justify it and to get a consensus. You can't sell a board of directors on the idea that "we've got to do it because the NEC has schoalrships." It's got to be a wider discussion.

At Georgetown, scholarships and facilities continue to be a "guns or butter" dilemma and not just in football. Kehoe Field, the former home of Georgetown football, was reported this week as now unplayable for sports. The field hockey team has moved its its "home" games from Kehoe to the University of Maryland, an hour and a half from campus in the afternoon rush hour.

http://www.thehoya.com/sports/073007/sports1.cfm

[gotribe]

Hopefully, if that happens, I would guess that Colgate could find it's way into the CAA, which is a good thing. In addition to offering scholarships, CAA teams play at least one (1) high profile (e.g. ACC) D1A team - this year W&M will play at Va. Tech in front of 60,000+ fans - which is a real selling point in recruiting, not to mention the revenue $$ that flow into the conference as a result of those games.

The PL is at a crossroads. Something has to be done or watch their ability to compete plummet.

[carney2]

This isn't the big issue at Georgetown or Fordham because athletic scholarships are already part of the equation...the larger issue is how to justify it and to get a consensus. You can't sell a board of directors on the idea that "we've got to do it because the NEC has schoalrships." It's got to be a wider discussion.

At Georgetown, scholarships and facilities continue to be a "guns or butter" dilemma and not just in football. Kehoe Field, the former home of Georgetown football, was reported this week as now unplayable for sports. The field hockey team has moved its its "home" games from Kehoe to the University of Maryland, an hour and a half from campus in the afternoon rush hour.

http://www.thehoya.com/sports/073007/sports1.cfm

Most of us who follow PL football feel, without anything even resembling information or facts, but in our infinite wisdom, that we "know" where Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh will ultimately stand on this issue. We also feel that Bucknell will fall into line, and trust that Fordham is leaning to the pro-scholarship side of this argument. The two that we are "afraid of" in that they could be the sand in the gears are Georgetown and Holy Cross.

[MplsBison]

The field hockey team has moved its its "home" games from Kehoe to the University of Maryland, an hour and a half from campus in the afternoon rush hour.




Couldn't they work something out with GW, American, Catholic, etc?

[carney2]

Hopefully, if that happens, I would guess that Colgate could find it's way into the CAA

Not easily, and not alone. It has been stated here many times that academically, geographically, athletically, and any other __ly you care to name, Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh are joined at the hip. Going it alone would not only diminish the others, but it would also diminish the lone ranger himself.

[gotribe]

GW and AU don't field a football team and Catholic is D3, so that's not much of an option for football.

If a few schools go the schollie route for football, I think the PL will be at risk and survival doubtful unless just about all go along.

[MplsBison]

GW and AU don't field a football team

Field hockey

[LBPop]

Couldn't they work something out with GW, American, Catholic, etc?

This is just a guess, but we're talking about moving for an entire season's schedule. The schools in DC have either limited or no field space at all. My guess is that the only local school with enough spare space to handle every game and not affect their own schedules was Maryland. Heck, that place has fields that nobody has discovered yet.;)

[gotribe]

Franks Tanks,

Do the PL posters on this board share your opinion that the PL has demonstrated that it's competitive with the A-10/CAA?

If the head to head W-L record prove it, you're right my statement about getting their brains beat in is not valid.

[Franks Tanks]

Franks Tanks,

Do the PL posters on this board share your opinion that the PL has demonstrated that it's competitive with the A-10/CAA?

If the head to head W-L record prove it, you're right my statement about getting their brains beat in is not valid.

I'm at work right now so I dont have the time to look up teh entire head to head numbers, but Lafayette is 2-2 against the A-10/ CAA in this decade. We beat Richmond twice in 04 & 05, and we lost to Delaware in the 04 playoffs and UMass in 06. I didnt say we were dominating just competitive, and 2-2 with losses to high quality playoff teams isnt too shabby.

[Pard94]

I'm at work right now so I dont have the time to look up teh entire head to head numbers, but Lafayette is 2-2 against the A-10/ CAA in this decade. We beat Richmond twice in 04 & 05, and we lost to Delaware in the 04 playoffs and UMass in 06. I didnt say we were dominating just competitive, and 2-2 with losses to high quality playoff teams isnt too shabby.


And to further your point FT...we played Delaware and Appy State very close in the playoffs...scared the pi** out of them for three quarters in fact. While I am not counting this by any stretch as any kind of a win...it does refute the claim that we "get our brains beat in".

[gotribe]

I also believe my opinion is shaped by the experience my son (and I) had during the recruiting process. When evaluating CAA vs PL programs, there seemed to be a significant gap between them in terms of across the board player abilities and, most seriously, the football facilities. That's not to say that some PL players couldn't be starters in the CAA, especially since many were recruited by both leagues.

Scholarship aside, the PL just seemed to be a notably lower grade of football. That may not have been fair, but that's just the way it was to us.

[carney2]

Franks Tanks,

Do the PL posters on this board share your opinion that the PL has demonstrated that it's competitive with the A-10/CAA?

My opinion is that the top rung of the CAA (Delaware, UMass, JMU and currently, but not necessarily perpetually, UNH) plays at a notch above the best in the Patriot League. On the whole, the rest of the CAA does not steal much of an edge on the Patriot's Big 3 (or the top half of the Ivy League). In reality, the Patriot League schools will always have a difficult time keeping up with the football programs of highly motivated large state universities (ASU, Montana, GSU, YSU, etc. as well as the CAA schools mentioned - even W&M if they can ever get their act together again).

[Pard4Life]

CAA is arguably the best (and I say it is) I-AA er FCS conference out there... PL is a very good non-CAA, Big Sky, SoCon confernce...

[MplsBison]

Going out of your way to disrespect the Gateway?

Alright, that's fine...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Franks Tanks,

Do the PL posters on this board share your opinion that the PL has demonstrated that it's competitive with the A-10/CAA?

If the head to head W-L record prove it, you're right my statement about getting their brains beat in is not valid.

Lehigh has been more than competitive with the A-10 since 1998 and they've played the cream of the crop for most part. Amazingly they're 2-0 against the A-10 auto-bid rep in the playoffs with wins over Richmond in '98 and Hofstra in '01
1998 first round @ Richmond W
1998 second round @ Umass L 27-21, Lehigh had 1st and goal with a minute and couldn't score, Umass won the National Title
1999 @ Delaware W 45-33 i believe
1999 @ first round Hofstra L 27-15
2000 @ Delaware L 45-24
2001 Hofstra W 27-21 OT
2004 Villanova L 21-16
2004 first round James Madison L 14-13, JMU national champs
2005 @ Delaware 35-34 L Lehigh missed the extra pt in OT after blowing 21 pt 4th quarter lead
2006 @ Villanova W 31-28

[youwouldno]

There really is no debate. Just the bureaucracy of academia interfering with logic. The PL has no choice but to go with scholarships, but what fun would that be without all kinds of wrangling over it first.

[ngineer]

Lehigh has been more than competitive with the A-10 since 1998 and they've played the cream of the crop for most part. Amazingly they're 2-0 against the A-10 auto-bid rep in the playoffs with wins over Richmond in '98 and Hofstra in '01
1998 first round @ Richmond W
1998 second round @ Umass L 27-21, Lehigh had 1st and goal with a minute and couldn't score, Umass won the National Title
1999 @ Delaware W 45-33 i believe
1999 @ first round Hofstra L 27-15
2000 @ Delaware L 45-24
2001 Hofstra W 27-21 OT
2004 Villanova L 21-16
2004 first round James Madison L 14-13, JMU national champs
2005 @ Delaware 35-34 L Lehigh missed the extra pt in OT after blowing 21 pt 4th quarter lead
2006 @ Villanova W 31-28

Beat me to it...By no means have the PL teams had "their brains beaten in" by the former A-10 and other 'big' conferences. While not a winning record, most of the losses have been close

[colgate13]

This is what I've been talking about for about 2 years now. The Presidents are talking about it and studies have been done. President Chopp (Colgate) is now in charge of the PL group and will not let this die from the agenda. It will be hammered home and will happen in the near term IMO. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last year of recruiting without scholarships. I have no specific information, but this kind of public talk puts the ball a bit more in motion for me.

Two years ago I said we'd see PL schollies in 3-5 years. I think we're still on target.

[carney2]

This is what I've been talking about for about 2 years now. Two years ago I said we'd see PL schollies in 3-5 years. I think we're still on target.

We bow to the old you, a truly great man. The "new" you - well, not so much.

[MaroonFan]

What is interesting in this discussion is Holy Cross mentioned as a school to get in the way of this process. Of all the PL schools you would think they would be the biggest advocate. Before coming into the league they had scholarships and were a force in I-AA football, often ranked in top 5. Look at what has happened since. Ironic they are mentioned as a stumbling block to getting scholarships.

[colgate13]

We bow to the old you, a truly great man. The "new" you - well, not so much.

Fair enough. It was a good trade though - the "new" me is a greater man outside of AGS.xnodx

[colgate13]

What is interesting in this discussion is Holy Cross mentioned as a school to get in the way of this process. Of all the PL schools you would think they would be the biggest advocate. Before coming into the league they had scholarships and were a force in I-AA football, often ranked in top 5. Look at what has happened since. Ironic they are mentioned as a stumbling block to getting scholarships.

Thick headed presidential leadership and the unwillingness to admit you were wrong. That's basically the Holy Cross story. They'll come along soon enough.xthumbsupx

[carney2]

Thick headed presidential leadership and the unwillingness to admit you were wrong. That's basically the Holy Cross story. They'll come along soon enough.xthumbsupx

Can you elaborate? I have my own (poorly formed and even more poorly informed) views of the Holy Cross downward spiral which has gone from Gordie Lochbaum to (fill in your own version of the present and the foreseeable future for the'saders), but am always looking for better concepts.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can you elaborate? I have my own (poorly formed and even more poorly informed) views of the Holy Cross downward spiral which has gone from Gordie Lochbaum to (fill in your own version of the present and the foreseeable future for the'saders), but am always looking for better concepts.

xreadx http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0316278424.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Father John Brooks was one of the "founding Fathers" (pardon the pun) of the PL. He's probably most famous for goading John Thompson about basketball scholarships at an NCAA coaches' meeting (detailed int eh book). When he left, is when HC threatened to leave the league over basketball scholarships.

HC to me has always struck me as a basketball-first, football-second school even with its historical rivalry with Boston College. I think all sports at Holy Cross were hurt across the board by the AI, but football was hurt the hardest.

[Franks Tanks]

Can you elaborate? I have my own (poorly formed and even more poorly informed) views of the Holy Cross downward spiral which has gone from Gordie Lochbaum to (fill in your own version of the present and the foreseeable future for the'saders), but am always looking for better concepts.

Legend has it that Holy Cross was invited to join the Big East in Hoops along with other Northeast Catholic schools such as Villanova, Providence, St. Johns,Seton Hall, G-town etc. Thier administration decided againt it and when they saw the sucess of the schools they alost joined in hoops i think many of their alums and sports fans were destroyed froever. They led many people associated with Holy Cross to hate the Patriot league, and they always wonder what may have been.

[Go...gate]

We bow to the old you, a truly great man. The "new" you - well, not so much.

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[DFW HOYA]

Legend has it that Holy Cross was invited to join the Big East in Hoops along with other Northeast Catholic schools such as Villanova, Providence, St. Johns,Seton Hall, G-town etc. Thier administration decided againt it and when they saw the sucess of the schools they alost joined in hoops i think many of their alums and sports fans were destroyed froever. They led many people associated with Holy Cross to hate the Patriot league, and they always wonder what may have been.

It's no legend, it's a fact. Following the formation of the Big East conference by its original four members (Providence, Georgetown, Syracuse, St. John's), HC was invited and Rev. John Brooks, S.J. flatly turned it down. The Big East then went to Boston College and it joined soon thereafter, as did UConn, competing in relative obscurity in the Yankee Conference.

I think there is little doubt that had HC joined in 1979, it would be playing football today in a 40,000+ seat "Fitton Stadium" as the Wake Forest of the Big East. I think a lot of the old Sader fans realize it, too.

HC wasn't the only one to pass on the Big East. Rutgers was asked to join the original seven and declined. Seton Hall quickly took its place.

[colgate13]

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Carney thinks I'm a homer now.xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

It's no legend, it's a fact. Following the formation of the Big East conference by its original four members (Providence, Georgetown, Syracuse, St. John's), HC was invited and Rev. John Brooks, S.J. flatly turned it down. The Big East then went to Boston College and it joined soon thereafter, as did UConn, competing in relative obscurity in the Yankee Conference.

I think there is little doubt that had HC joined in 1979, it would be playing football today in a 40,000+ seat "Fitton Stadium" as the Wake Forest of the Big East. I think a lot of the old Sader fans realize it, too.

HC wasn't the only one to pass on the Big East. Rutgers was asked to join the original seven and declined. Seton Hall quickly took its place.

Thanks for the better explanation I wasnt around back then so I didnt know all the facts. In a nutshell you basically stated why Holy Cross old timers and even some younger alums dont really like the PL and probably never will. However how cool would it be to see a resurgant Cross on the scene after some scholarships. They are well known nationally and i think they can climb to the top of the FCS again if the administration allows it. I do disagree with yo on one point however, I dont think Holy Cross would have reamined in the Big East for football. No school so small plays in a BCS conference and I think Wake Forest is almost double the size of teh Cross, Tulsa and Rice I believe are the only two schools of similar size playing BCS are they are in Conference USA. The resources needed for a school of 2,500 to play Big East footbal tremendous, even considering the invreased revenue they would bring in.

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks for the better explanation I wasnt around back then so I didnt know all the facts. In a nutshell you basically stated why Holy Cross old timers and even some younger alums dont really like the PL and probably never will. However how cool would it be to see a resurgant Cross on the scene after some scholarships. They are well known nationally and i think they can climb to the top of the FCS again if the administration allows it. I do disagree with yo on one point however, I dont think Holy Cross would have reamined in the Big East for football. No school so small plays in a BCS conference and I think Wake Forest is almost double the size of teh Cross, Tulsa and Rice I believe are the only two schools of similar size playing BCS are they are in Conference USA. The resources needed for a school of 2,500 to play Big East footbal tremendous, even considering the invreased revenue they would bring in.


Also I would be interested to hear what the few Holy Cross folks out there think about the above post? Agree or disagree

[RichH2]

I check in with all the boards, while HC not as rabid about PL as many of the rest of us, fans seem to have accepted it albeit grudgingly. Compared to pre Gilmore, when the vehemence against being in the PL was an inferno. If Gilmore consistently brings them home a winner HC will be OK.
The failure to join the BigEast on the Bball side I don't think will ever be accepted

[BDKJMU]

Looking at the IAA playoff history on the old I-AA.org plus last season, by my count since they've gotten an autobid for the playoffs 97'-06' they're 5-14 (2-13 outside of 03' when Colgate made their playoff run). So the PL has been moderately competitive in the playoffs.

Is the PL slipping, or is the Ivy suddenly that much better? According to the article, "In 2006, Patriot teams were 13-23 against outside foes and 4-14 against the Ivy League. Lafayette and Lehigh, the league's co-champs, were 2-9 in non-league games, including the Leopards' playoff loss, and a combined 0-7 vs. the Ivies."

This is a bad OOC record for last season. Of the 8 autobid conferences, the PL certainly has the weakest OOC schedule year in, year out:
-plays no IA schools
-plays very few fully scholly IAA (before NEC went partial scholly, majority or the PL OOC was against non scholly IVY and NEC).

It is completely asinine to give schollies in other sports but only provide need based in football. It shouldn't matter if a kids family income was 30k or 300k, if a kid is good enough for an athletic football scholly, then he should get a full ride. Why would a talented kid who's family income was 100-300k, certainly not rich by today's standards, his parents pay anywhere from partial to full tuition of 40-50k (which is asinine btw) a year when that kid could go to a fully scholly school that was a notch below the typical PL school academically, or even on par (ex, UR, W&M) and get a full ride. Its also got to hurt the PL schools (as it does most private schools) when a kid could walk on at a state school for 10-15 k a year, vs if he qualifies academically, go to a PL where his parents still might have to pay 20-30k of the 40-50k tuition. It just boggles my mind that PL schools would give athletic schollies in other sports but not football. If the PL went full scholly, then
-they'd go from losing a majority of IVY OOC to winning a majority
-the whole conference, and not just the big 3 (Lehigh, Lafayette & Colgate) could schedule CAA, SoCon, Gateway and be competitive with them across the board year in & year out. They could be considered one of the elites, along with those other 3 plus the Big Sky. Right now, according to both the Sagarin and GPI over the last 5 years (can cite if you want), the PL ranks ahead of 2 of the autobid conferences, the OVC and MEAC, but behind the 4 elites plus the Southland.
-would do better than 5-13 in the playoffs
-could schedule the occasional IA, at least some of the more academic ones, like Duke, Wake, Vandy, Northwestern, UVA, to see how they'd stack up and to get a few hundred k paycheck while they were at it.
xcoffeex

[MplsBison]

I think there is little doubt that had HC joined in 1979, it would be playing football today in a 40,000+ seat "Fitton Stadium" as the Wake Forest of the Big East. I think a lot of the old Sader fans realize it, too.

They obviously made the right decision.


There's just no academic integrity left anymore at places like Boston College, Wake Forrest, Vanderbilt, etc.

[Neighbor2]

We should remember, a Patriot League with football scholarships can continue to be a strong academic conference. There is no reason to believe Patriot League football athletes would begin to resemble, say, LSU athletes, many of whom have no business in college classrooms.

Offering scholarships will only mean Patriot League schools have access to ALL of the best potential FCS athletes and scholars. Surely, IF I had a son with good grades and FCS football ability, I would send him to a full-ride school rather than any other place that will cost me/him much more money. All other things being equal, parents would be foolish not to look at this as a business decision.

Plus, why would the Patriot League schools want to continue playing at the FCS level with (as they claim) one hand tied behind their back?

[RichH2]

Abit of an overstatement Bison. They are certainly good schools, While BC does come off as a"$ whore " for running to the ACC,it is still a good academic institution. Dont know much about Wake but Vandy an excellent school that hasn't lowered its standards even tho competing in a tough conference

[Franks Tanks]

We should remember, a Patriot League with football scholarships can continue to be a strong academic conference. There is no reason to believe Patriot League football athletes would begin to resemble, say, LSU athletes, many of whom have no business in college classrooms.

Offering scholarships will only mean Patriot League schools have access to ALL of the best potential FCS athletes and scholars. Surely, IF I had a son with good grades and FCS football ability, I would send him to a full-ride school rather than any other place that will cost me/him much more money. All other things being equal, parents would be foolish not to look at this as a business decision.
Plus, why would the Patriot League schools want to continue playing at the FCS level with (as they claim) one hand tied behind their back?


This has been discussed about a billion times, everyone (except the school presidents apparently) understand that scholarship will and should bring higher quality athletes and as least as high quality students. It just makes our potential pool of players much larger.

[Franks Tanks]

They obviously made the right decision.


There's just no academic integrity left anymore at places like Boston College, Wake Forrest, Vanderbilt, etc.

Even if Holy Cross joined the Big East in hoops there is no guarantee they would be FBS in football. Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's no football team-- Villanova, Georgetown FCS teams. So the Big East basketball schools most like Holy Cross, ie small private catholic colleges mentioned above, have 0 teams playing FBS football, and I dont see any reson to believe that Holy Cross would have been different.

[Franks Tanks]

Abit of an overstatement Bison. They are certainly good schools, While BC does come off as a"$ whore " for running to the ACC,it is still a good academic institution. Dont know much about Wake but Vandy an excellent school that hasn't lowered its standards even tho competing in a tough conference

He's being sarcastic, although some might question the academic integrity of BC :D point shaving anyone?

[carney2]

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

It's one of those "you had to be there" things. I accused 13 of having become a new man - in fact, a homer - after he picked his alma mater to win it all this year.

[Go...gate]

It's one of those "you had to be there" things. I accused 13 of having become a new man - in fact, a homer - after he picked his alma mater to win it all this year.

OK - my bad - I was just watching my fellow Red Raider's back!!! You are always a nice guy, so I should have given you the benefit of the doubt. Besides, Art Carney is one of my all-time favorite comedians.

[bison137]

Hopefully, if that happens, I would guess that Colgate could find it's way into the CAA.

IMO, the chance of Colgate finding its way into the CAA is approximately 0%.

[bison137]

They obviously made the right decision.


There's just no academic integrity left anymore at places like Boston College, Wake Forrest, Vanderbilt, etc.


At BC it depends on the sport. There hasn't been much integrity there for years when it comes to men's basketball.

[bison137]

It is hypocritical of PL schools to offer schollies in all sports BUT football. Very dishonest policy.

Just to set the record straight, most PL schools do not offer athletic schollies in most sports. The whole PL gives them in hoops, and some of the schools also give out a limited number in certain other sports but certainly not all of them. Army and Navy, of course, give free rides to everyone.

[Go...gate]

IMO, the chance of Colgate finding its way into the CAA is approximately 0%.

Less, in my opinion. :)

[letsgopards04]

Valid points indeed. The key here is the faculty at the seven institutions. At most institutions the faculty is at odds with, and jealous of, the athletic department, it's influence with the alumni and high visibility. The question, therefore, is how much influence does the faculty as a whole have at your institution.

At Lafayette, for instance, the faculty was the puppeteer for Pinocchio Rothkopf. He danced to their tune and they loved him for it. Weiss seems to be his own man in these matters, but (and not a minor point) after basketball scholarships and the new Taj MaFootball, will he now feel that the "new guy" has gone as far as he can for now. I have no inside information. I'm just spit balling.

It is interesting to note that at last evening's session with the alumni, when the subject of football scholarships came up, Lafayette's Frank Tavani did say that if the others have them and he doesn't (a statement that I took as a reference to the years that the aforementioned Artie Rothkopf left the basketball programs high and dry while the rest of the League was granting scholarships) then you would begin to see signs advertising "Tavani's Lawn and Landscape Service" all over town.


Good comments about Weiss. As an aside he also has turned back Rothkopf's anti-Greek practices, which is ironic and hypocritical because he was Greek and I guarantee that he did worse things than the current fraternity members do.

[letsgopards04]

They obviously made the right decision.


There's just no academic integrity left anymore at places like Boston College, Wake Forrest, Vanderbilt, etc.

Are you serious? When I was looking at colleges BC was not on my radar but Wake Forest and Vanderbilt are two of the finest institutions South of the Mason-Dixon as well as the nation. Unless you have personal experience--please do tell.

[RedSpartan]

For my first post ever, I'll chime in with my two cents.

I really think that scholarships for the PL would be nothing but a positive for all involved. First, doing so would presumably not cost more than the current system -- "need based" aid would simply become scholarships. And even if the scholarships do cost more (offering more scholarships than there was need based assitance, for example), the higher quality of play (especially OOC) would only serve to raise the profile of the schools and bring in more dollars from proud alumni, myself included.

Second, and related to this, I think such a higher profile can only help raise the (already high) academic standards of the PL schools as well. Perhaps watching a PL team play on a more national stage would be a prospective student's first exposure to that team's school. He/she researches the school and finds out what more they have to offer, and decides to apply. I think the PL schools could increase their general pool of applicants significantly this way. With such a larger pool, the PL schools could extend offers to higher percentages of top students (i.e., maybe a higher percentage of an incoming class could have been top 10% in high school, or any number of stats like that), and have their standards and reputation only increase. And even if they only maintained their standards in accepting applicants, their all-important U.S. News rankings would increase anyway (due to a lower acceptance rate).

Last, I think any worries about significantly lower academic standards for athletes than the PL has now are misplaced, and, quite frankly, a bit stereotypical. Regardless, even if there is any truth to it, I have no problem with some students getting access to the finest education based in part on their athletic skill -- one they otherwise would not have had. For some applicants to college, their essay put them over the top and got them accepted; for others, it was their out-of-school activities; for others, it was simply their grades. If an athlete's skills help them get in, good for them. Regardless, college is what you make of it, and if an athlete or any other student does not take advantage, that's their fault, not the school's for accepting them.

[Lehigh74]

For my first post ever, I'll chime in with my two cents.

I really think that scholarships for the PL would be nothing but a positive for all involved. First, doing so would presumably not cost more than the current system -- "need based" aid would simply become scholarships. And even if the scholarships do cost more (offering more scholarships than there was need based assitance, for example), the higher quality of play (especially OOC) would only serve to raise the profile of the schools and bring in more dollars from proud alumni, myself included.

Second, and related to this, I think such a higher profile can only help raise the (already high) academic standards of the PL schools as well. Perhaps watching a PL team play on a more national stage would be a prospective student's first exposure to that team's school. He/she researches the school and finds out what more they have to offer, and decides to apply. I think the PL schools could increase their general pool of applicants significantly this way. With such a larger pool, the PL schools could extend offers to higher percentages of top students (i.e., maybe a higher percentage of an incoming class could have been top 10% in high school, or any number of stats like that), and have their standards and reputation only increase. And even if they only maintained their standards in accepting applicants, their all-important U.S. News rankings would increase anyway (due to a lower acceptance rate)

I totally agree with the premise of your well reasoned post. Is there really any doubt that Notre Dame would not be the fine academic institution it is if not for the success of the football program? It is also a fact that Rutgers has seen a large spike in the number of applicants as a result of the success of their football team last fall. Athletic success can and does have a positive effect on the academic profile of a school and a conference.

[RedSpartan]

Thanks, Lehigh74. Excellent examples in ND and Rutgers. I speak a bit from experience. In the early 90s, when BC shocked ND (then #1 after beating FSU) at South Bend, their national recognition and exposure skyrocketed. As a result, so did their applicant pool, and they had far more students to choose from for their incoming classes. This was the reason I was told I was rejected by BC, yet was accepted at Colgate. Worked out for the best, though. I couldn't imagine my life any other way.

[LBPop]

In the early 90s, when BC shocked ND (then #1 after beating FSU) at South Bend, their national recognition and exposure skyrocketed. As a result, so did their applicant pool, and they had far more students to choose from for their incoming classes.

Although my close connection to Georgetown is recent, I am told that it is generally recognized that the success of the John Thompson II basketball era had the same impact at Georgetown.

[carney2]

Although my close connection to Georgetown is recent, I am told that it is generally recognized that the success of the John Thompson II basketball era had the same impact at Georgetown.

I am shooting from the hip here and have no specific references, but I believe that the Villanova national basketball championship of the 80s was studied pretty thoroughly in this regard. As I recall, there was a short term increase in applications and alumni giving, but that there was no lasting effect. In other words, getting there is only the first battle of the war. You have to stay there if you want to see lasting results.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd disagree with both points above, sort of.

Georgetown's applications grew in the 1980's during the time of men's basketball's sucess, but actually received more applications in the years when it was presumed to be "down" (1997-2004) than when it was "up".

Demographics plays a role, but like a lot of other things, Georgetown marches to its own tune on admissions. It doesn't accept the Common Application, so it doesn't get many throwaway applications. All applicants must submit personal essays and are interviewed, so it's less likely a student submits a "one size fits all application". And, as PL fans well know, it doesn't offer merit aid and has to appeal to students that can justify the financial aid needed to get in.

The tipping point was not basketball, but the first US News "Top Colleges" report in 1985 which ranked Georgetown in the top 25, where it has been ever since. That opened the doors to a lot of potential students who use that list to frame their application window. Georgetown wasn't getting any extra apps from some kid in downtown Miami with a 2.0 looking at community college, a big state school, and, uh, Georgetown. Instead, it was that Northeast or West Coast student who saw Georgetown alongside Stanford and the Ivies and thought they might be worth a look. (Coincdentally, this is what is happening with Lehigh at #32--suddenly, the Engineers are amidst schools like BC, Tufts, and W&M, and gain applications that would have never considered LU before.)

Does basketball help visibility? Sure, but if all a student is interested is hoops, they won't get very far in the admission process.

[LBPop]

Hey DFW, I'm sure you're right about the effect of the high academic ranking, but I remember doing business with an executive at Georgetown in about 1983 or 1984 (just before LBKid arrived...who knew?). He told me that "the hug" that JT II gave Fred Brown after the errant pass to James Worthy in the 1982 finals did more for the school's reputation and profile than had the Hoyas won that game. With the perspective of hindsight, was there any truth to that?

[DFW HOYA]

He told me that "the hug" that JT II gave Fred Brown after the errant pass to James Worthy in the 1982 finals did more for the school's reputation and profile than had the Hoyas won that game.

It was well received, but I still would have liked to have seen the win.

[colgate13]

I'd disagree with both points above, sort of.

Georgetown's applications grew in the 1980's during the time of men's basketball's sucess, but actually received more applications in the years when it was presumed to be "down" (1997-2004) than when it was "up".

Demographics plays a role, but like a lot of other things, Georgetown marches to its own tune on admissions. It doesn't accept the Common Application, so it doesn't get many throwaway applications. All applicants must submit personal essays and are interviewed, so it's less likely a student submits a "one size fits all application". And, as PL fans well know, it doesn't offer merit aid and has to appeal to students that can justify the financial aid needed to get in.

The tipping point was not basketball, but the first US News "Top Colleges" report in 1985 which ranked Georgetown in the top 25, where it has been ever since. That opened the doors to a lot of potential students who use that list to frame their application window. Georgetown wasn't getting any extra apps from some kid in downtown Miami with a 2.0 looking at community college, a big state school, and, uh, Georgetown. Instead, it was that Northeast or West Coast student who saw Georgetown alongside Stanford and the Ivies and thought they might be worth a look. (Coincdentally, this is what is happening with Lehigh at #32--suddenly, the Engineers are amidst schools like BC, Tufts, and W&M, and gain applications that would have never considered LU before.)

Does basketball help visibility? Sure, but if all a student is interested is hoops, they won't get very far in the admission process.

EXCELLENT post! xnodx

[RedSpartan]

I think the points being made here can coexist. My point is that athletic scholarships and increased competition can lead to more national exposure and increased standards and reputation at PL schools. These schools, like Georgetown did in 1985, already have excellent reputations that can increase and/or be built upon. This is likely what happened to Georgetown as a result of its basketball successes -- it went from an excellent school to an even more rarified air.

As to other schools with reputations perhaps not already quite as high as PL schools or Georgetown -- I'll use Rutgers as an example (my wife's alma mater as well as that of numerous friends) -- the national recognition and exposure from athletic success can translate into more applications and a deeper pool of prospective students to draw from, resulting in increased academic reputation and standards.

Indeed, to take an already-noted example, my understanding is that in the early part of the 20th Century, Notre Dame was a regional Catholic school with a good reputation. Once it began winning national titles in football, however (which was done most often to that point by Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Cornell; schools that it could not hurt to be seen as competing on par with), the above took place and it began to rise to the stellar academic level it enjoys today.

[UncleSam]

Does basketball help visibility? Sure, but if all a student is interested is hoops, they won't get very far in the admission process.


Tell that to Allen Iverson. :D

[LBPop]

It was well received, but I still would have liked to have seen the win.

As a Maryland Alum and having no idea at the time that Georgetown would ever really matter to me, I was not close to being a Hoya fan. However, I must admit that I was rooting for Georgetown in that game and I felt awful for Fred Brown. Also, my regard for the school was admittedly elevated by Big John's reaction.