Is the State of North Dakota really this financially broke?!?

[AppApp]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really

[centennial]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really

No political will to invest in a new stadium. More than that, no FBS conference to go to. Bring back the WAC.

[mmiller_34]

I bet more people nationwide are watching this game currently than were watching the New Orleans Bowl for what its worth.

[BisonTru]

No political will to invest in a new stadium. More than that, no FBS conference to go to. Bring back the WAC.

We don’t need a new stadium, but you nailed it with the conference.

We have the money and the will but without an invite it’s just an endless debate we have online.


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[Laker]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really

Too far west for the MAC.

Too far east for the MWC.

Too far north for the Big 12 or Sunbelt.

WAC doesn't have football.

No reason to build another bigger dome.

[TheKingpin28]

I bet more people nationwide are watching this game currently than were watching the New Orleans Bowl for what its worth.

If I am a KSU fan, I am loving what I am seeing with the calls Messingham makes and the way Klieman controls the defense.

[Thumper 76]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really

Would think an FBS fan would have a better grasp of what’s needed to move up.








Wait, no I wouldn’t.


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[uni88]

Too far west for the MAC.

Too far east for the MWC.

Too far north for the Big 12 or Sunbelt.

WAC doesn't have football.

No reason to build another bigger dome.Big XII isn't because of geography, it's because they don't have a large enough media market.

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[JayJ79]

Too far west for the MAC.

Too far east for the MWC.

Too far north for the Big 12 or Sunbelt.

WAC doesn't have football.

No reason to build another bigger dome.
Geographically, they could do Big 12.
But the Big 12 isn't going to extend an invite to an FCS team that doesn't add anything in other sports.

[TheKingpin28]

Geographically, they could do Big 12.
But the Big 12 isn't going to extend an invite to an FCS team that doesn't add anything in other sports.

Outside of wrestling being in the Big XII and a consistent T25 team as well as softball being a perennial power house... xthumbsupx

[BisonFan02]

The Sunbelt is a downgrade from the Missouri Valley. Go away.

[Bisonwinagn]

The state of ND has nothing to do with it as they provide almost no funding to the school. NDSU is entirely on it's own to raise money.

[Bisonator]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really

Who's appy playing in the don't give a **** bowl?

[JayJ79]

Outside of wrestling being in the Big XII and a consistent T25 team as well as softball being a perennial power house... xthumbsupx
wrestling is already in the Big 12, so the conference doesn't gain anything by bringing in NDSU in other sports, and do you really think softball really moves the needle when it comes to influencing conference membership decisions?

[TheKingpin28]

wrestling is already in the Big 12, so the conference doesn't gain anything by bringing in NDSU in other sports, and do you really think softball really moves the needle when it comes to influencing conference membership decisions?

It was more sarcastic if anything, hence the softball part.

[WileECoyote06]

Form a conference with the other state flagship FCS schools, add Liberty, UMass, and New Mexico State, problem solved!

Travel logistics nightmare, but you'd be in FBS. xthumbsupx

[frozennorth]

Form a conference with the other state flagship FCS schools, add Liberty, UMass, and New Mexico State, problem solved!

Travel logistics nightmare, but you'd be in FBS. xthumbsupx
why one earth would ndsu ever want to be in a conference with those schools?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I bet more people nationwide are watching this game currently than were watching the New Orleans Bowl for what its worth.

Since it's not a NDSU-JMU final, I doubt that.

[Scooter]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really
If your team would have stayed...we would still have 7 titles. Good move for you guys...kind of sad post on your part.

You can bitch without having to back anything up...congrats to you.

[TheKingpin28]

Since it's not a NDSU-JMU final, I doubt that.

You also have the KSU fan base potentially watching it.

[JacksFan40]

If I’m NDSU, I’d only go FBS if it’s the MWC or higher. MAC is a downgrade. At least with the MWC you can go to more important bowls like the Las Vegas Bowl. The MAC goes to the Boca Raton Bowl.
FargoDome is fine for FBS, as long as they continue filling it they’ll be fine.
The Big 12 won’t come calling.
Also I doubt they’d go unless SDSU comes with.

[JacksFan40]

You also have the KSU fan base potentially watching it.
Was just at a powerlifting meet in Sioux Falls and saw quite a few people watching the game on their phones. I’d imagine they got more viewers than the Bahamas Bowl or the Boca Raton Bowl.

[TheKingpin28]

If I’m NDSU, I’d only go FBS if it’s the MWC or higher. MAC is a downgrade. At least with the MWC you can go to more important bowls like the Las Vegas Bowl. The MAC goes to the Boca Raton Bowl.
FargoDome is fine for FBS, as long as they continue filling it they’ll be fine.
The Big 12 won’t come calling.
Also I doubt they’d go unless SDSU comes with.

If NDSU isn't given a fair chance to play for the National Title each year, (see UCF), there is zero reason to go to FBS.

[TheKingpin28]

Was just at a powerlifting meet in Sioux Falls and saw quite a few people watching the game on their phones. I’d imagine they got more viewers than the Bahamas Bowl or the Boca Raton Bowl.

I'd imagine this was about 1.5 million with it being the only football game on.

[kdinva]

.....FargoDome is fine......as long as they continue filling it they’ll be fine.


Do any Bizon folks use hindsight, and wish the Dome had been built with 24,000 - 27,000 seats? I think the ticket demand has always been there....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The atmosphere and overall visual presentation of the FCS title game was better than 80% of the bowl games. Overall, the title game was better than 95% of the bowl games this year. NDSU is in a tough stop. The current bowl structure is horrid and expected to get worse for the G5 schools. It will be more or less exclusively G5 vs G5 and P5 vs P5 when these deals get redone in the next couple of years.

I wouldn't leave for anything less than the MWC. Yeah they're a bit out of the footprint but not to the point where it would be weird or doesn't make sense imo.

[uni88]

If I’m NDSU, I’d only go FBS if it’s the MWC or higher. MAC is a downgrade. At least with the MWC you can go to more important bowls like the Las Vegas Bowl. The MAC goes to the Boca Raton Bowl.
FargoDome is fine for FBS, as long as they continue filling it they’ll be fine.
The Big 12 won’t come calling.
Also I doubt they’d go unless SDSU comes with.I thought I heard that the Conference/Bowl tie-ins we're going away.

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[JacksFan40]

I thought I heard that the Conference/Bowl tie-ins we're going away.

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Probably since conferences can’t fill their slot due to not enough 6 win teams, so instead of a MAC vs MWC you get a Independent BYU vs WMU from the MAC.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I thought I heard that the Conference/Bowl tie-ins we're going away.

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Yup! Not sure of the details or full extent but there's going to be "re-structuring" in the next 2-3 years. All indications are it's not going to be good for the G5 schools, even the AAC and MWC. You're basically going to have all the G5 teams playing before Christmas with the P5 schools during the traditional bowl week leading up to New Year's.

[bisonwest]

Its not that NDSU can't move up. It's more a question of whether playing for a meaningless bowl game against Middle Tennessee State in a venue that is 75% empty really is a step up. NDSU will more than likely make a move if and when the power 5 splits away. Until then Appalachian State fans will have to wait to become the Bison's lackey.

[mmiller_34]

Since it's not a NDSU-JMU final, I doubt that.

The FCS Championship was the only football on today before the NFL games starting in the afternoon.

Anyone who who was watching football Saturday, December 15th was like watching the NFL game that was running at the same time as the New Orleans Bowl that drew 23k in a 75k seat venue.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The FCS Championship was the only football on today before the NFL games starting in the afternoon.

Anyone who who was watching football Saturday, December 15th was like watching the NFL game that was running at the same time as the New Orleans Bowl that drew 23k in a 75k seat venue.

A Saturday night football game on ESPN is always going to draw ratings. Virtually every traditional bar in all three time zones will have at least one TV with it on. It's also background noise at Christmas parties etc. This is a tough Saturday afternoon. First big post holiday cleanup.

[RabidRabbit]

NDSU & SDSU have been partners since the 1900s. Nothing will get NDSU to move all sports to FBS without their supportive partner.

With Augustana moving to Summit, anchored in Sioux Falls, not changing anytime soon.



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[X-Factor]

Do any Bizon folks use hindsight, and wish the Dome had been built with 24,000 - 27,000 seats? I think the ticket demand has always been there....

The original plan was around 30k with an upper deck that could have been closed off until needed. Taxpayer dollars barked

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The atmosphere and overall visual presentation of the FCS title game was better than 80% of the bowl games. Overall, the title game was better than 95% of the bowl games this year. NDSU is in a tough stop. The current bowl structure is horrid and expected to get worse for the G5 schools. It will be more or less exclusively G5 vs G5 and P5 vs P5 when these deals get redone in the next couple of years.

I wouldn't leave for anything less than the MWC. Yeah they're a bit out of the footprint but not to the point where it would be weird or doesn't make sense imo.

How's that going to work? There will always be more bowl-eligible P5 teams than G5 teams simply because the Power 5 is better, and thus there will be P5 versus G5 bowl games.

Personally, so far the bowls are more fun that I thought they'd be. Doesn't mean that they can't get stale after a while, but beating 95% of the FCS teams in the playoffs not named NDSU could also get really stale.

[mmiller_34]

A Saturday night football game on ESPN is always going to draw ratings. Virtually every traditional bar in all three time zones will have at least one TV with it on. It's also background noise at Christmas parties etc. This is a tough Saturday afternoon. First big post holiday cleanup.

OK.

[Pards Rule]

The original plan was around 30k with an upper deck that could have been closed off until needed. Taxpayer dollars barked
The other factor was when it was built no one foresaw this reign. Wonder if they put in structural improvements though at construction to add it later?

[BisonBacker]

Do any Bizon folks use hindsight, and wish the Dome had been built with 24,000 - 27,000 seats? I think the ticket demand has always been there....

Ironically the original design was for 27K dome. The dumbass Mayor Fargo at the time was hellbent against it and made enough waves and bitched enough to get the original plan/design tossed aside for the version that was eventually built. Now the ex mayor ironically enough sends letters to the Fargo Fishwrap as a member of the "freethinkers" an ironic title for a group with no foresight in it at all with that dumb bastard in it.

[RootinFerDukes]

App doesn’t want NDSU to join the sun belt and make the mountaineers look foolish. They’d win it every single season.

[RootinFerDukes]

No political will to invest in a new stadium. More than that, no FBS conference to go to. Bring back the WAC.

This is the real reason. Unless NDSU wants to go the liberty route and try to bust the ncaa’s balls for an independent FBS acceptance, then they require an invite to a conference.

No G5 AD in the Mac, sun belt or cusa are stupid enough to throw NDSU a bone and let them come in and immediately and permanently dominate their conference at the detriment of their already mediocre program.

What incentive do they have to consider ndsu?

[RootinFerDukes]

If your team would have stayed...we would still have 7 titles. Good move for you guys...kind of sad post on your part.

You can bitch without having to back anything up...congrats to you.

App fans were similar to NDSU fans, except we only had to deal with them for three straight years and then they dwindled afterwards until moving up to the big time.

App fans would’ve been beside themselves if they were still down here and had to watch NDSU do what they did x2+. It would be insufferable to watch the back and forth between both fan bases.

[NDSU1980]

Ironically the original design was for 27K dome. The dumbass Mayor Fargo at the time was hellbent against it and made enough waves and bitched enough to get the original plan/design tossed aside for the version that was eventually built. Now the ex mayor ironically enough sends letters to the Fargo Fishwrap as a member of the "freethinkers" an ironic title for a group with no foresight in it at all with that dumb bastard in it.And don't forget Steve Linke who tried every tactic to kill the dome, then left town the minute it was apparent the dome would succeed beyond anyone's wildest dream.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If NDSU were in the G5 conferences. I'm not putting much weight on bowl games...

AAC - I'd say 2nd or 3rd. UCF is better but not by a ridiculous amount. Cincinnati would be interesting. NDSU is better than Temple, Memphis, Houston etc.
MWC - I'd say 2nd to 4th. I'd give a legit edge to Fresno State with Boise State and Utah State being up for debate.
SBC - Challenge App State for the title
CUSA - Likely win it, although I'd like to see them play Marshall (9-4) and the postseason Doc
MAC - Likely win it, although I'd like to see Frank Solich with 3 weeks to prepare Ohio (9-4) for such a game

[BisonBacker]

If NDSU were in the G5 conferences. I'm not putting much weight on bowl games...

AAC - I'd say 2nd or 3rd. UCF is better but not by a ridiculous amount. Cincinnati would be interesting. NDSU is better than Temple, Memphis, Houston etc.
MWC - I'd say 2nd to 4th. I'd give a legit edge to Fresno State with Boise State and Utah State being up for debate.
SBC - Challenge App State for the title
CUSA - Likely win it, although I'd like to see them play Marshall (9-4) and the postseason Doc
MAC - Likely win it, although I'd like to see Frank Solich with 3 weeks to prepare Ohio (9-4) for such a game

I'm not going to comment on the others in general as I don't agree on all of what you posted but the last one is comical. I say this because back in 07 I believe it was (before we were playoff eligible due to the 5 year wait period to be playoff eligible after NDSU and SDSU announce the move up we played Central Michigan. Central Michigan ended up being the champs of the MAC that year. We destroyed them 44-14. It was a blood bath. That was a Central Michigan team who sent several players to the NFL by the way. Yeah it was 12 years ago now but that was a damn good NDSU team back then and NDSU has done nothing but get better.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'm not going to comment on the others in general as I don't agree on all of what you posted but the last one is comical. I say this because back in 07 I believe it was (before we were playoff eligible due to the 5 year wait period to be playoff eligible after NDSU and SDSU announce the move up we played Central Michigan. Central Michigan ended up being the champs of the MAC that year. We destroyed them 44-14. It was a blood bath. That was a Central Michigan team who sent several players to the NFL by the way. Yeah it was 12 years ago now but that was a damn good NDSU team back then and NDSU has done nothing but get better.

What happened in 2007 has nothing to do with this year. The MAC was way worse in 2007 than it was in 2018. Only 3 out of the 13 teams in the league finished with a winning record; CMU 8-6, Bowling Green 8-5 and Ball State 7-6. The 2009 CMU team that went 12-2, would be a much better opponnt. LeFevour and Antonio Brown were deadly by then.

I stand by my belief that a Solich led Ohio team with some extra prep time would be fun to watch.

[Scooter]

App fans were similar to NDSU fans, except we only had to deal with them for three straight years and then they dwindled afterwards until moving up to the big time.

App fans would’ve been beside themselves if they were still down here and had to watch NDSU do what they did x2+. It would be insufferable to watch the back and forth between both fan bases.
You forget what this thead is titled and who started it...
Why dont you just say what you mean..."please move up so my team can be relevant."

I know JMU is good but this post coming from a JMU fan is dripping with irony.

[BisonBacker]

You forget what this thead is titled and who started it...
Why dont you just say what you mean..."please move up so my team can be relevant."

I know JMU is good but this post coming from a JMU fan is dripping with irony.

What his motivations for the thread is only known by him. I will say this though about JMU fans and NDSU. I have to think they don't want to see NDSU move anywhere because if you really think about it how many times have you seen NDSU fans post about wishing the Georgia Southerns, App State, Coastal Carolina and other good teams were still in the FCS. I think having great institutions with strong programs at the FCS level only makes the accomplishments of any team that much better. If NDSU was gone who would they love to hate? I don't mean that they all hate us but you get the point. Seeing the best teams move on up to FBS isn't a good thing for FCS in general. Now if NDSU could make the jump to a P5 I'd be all for it be we know that ain't happening. I just wish the fallout of the expected split of the P5 and the G5 could just happen so that the G5 and the top of the FCS could blend together finally and form a new real 2nd tier below the P5's.

[WestCoastAggie]

To be honest: the MVFC should probably be a G-5 (then G-6) conference. Most of the schools have a budget to support the move and have missions similar to those in the MAC.

However, the XDSU’s in the MAC west division won’t be too much of a stretch for their teams. Divisional play should minimize travel expense flying to Ohio and New York that would cancel out any revenue increase from a TV contract.

[WestCoastAggie]

Another idea outside of the box would be to petition the NCAA for the Dakota schools to move up together and join FBS as Indy schools.

[Gil Dobie]

I'm not sure attendence and support would be maintained for a G5 product.

[Little Stevie]

Bison Fans are correct.
Do not ever underestimate any states lack of support for their universities.

[TheKingpin28]

Another idea outside of the box would be to petition the NCAA for the Dakota schools to move up together and join FBS as Indy schools.This can sound arrogant and it probably will, but if ndsu does not get 6 home games and a fair chance to play for a national title every year, this is a non-starter.

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[TheRevSFA]

I can’t see being Bell Bowl champs really blowing NDSU fans’ skirts up

[IBleedYellow]

I can’t see being Bell Bowl champs really blowing NDSU fans’ skirts upThose bastards still owe us a timeout!

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[AmsterBison]

NDSU & SDSU have been partners since the 1900s. Nothing will get NDSU to move all sports to FBS without their supportive partner.

With Augustana moving to Summit, anchored in Sioux Falls, not changing anytime soon.



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Yeah, SDSU and NDSU to the Mountain West is really the only thing that makes sense - and that is a stretch.

[lionsrking2]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really

Why? They have a much larger national profile than App State does right now. They're doing just fine where they are it seems to me.

[BisonBacker]

Why? They have a much larger national profile than App State does right now. They're doing just fine where they are it seems to me.
Not to mention that if NDSU and the other schools some have mentioned in the other thread (Boring..just move up already) were to somehow agree to working out a new fbs conference that the NCAA were to allow we'd be about as relevant as the Sunbelt, Cusa ect. Not knocking the schools in those conferences but look at the exposure they get. It's not much if your trying to compare FBS conferences as a whole. It's the P5 and then everyone else and it matters not if you are G5 or top tier FCS. Lionsrking is right that I'd say NDSU gets better exposure or national recognition than any of the Sun Belt or CUSA Schools. It's not much of an incentive if any at all to say move up to one of those conferences as I don't see it as a move up. Hell this has all been hashed and rehashed on this board so many times and not just about NDSU. The App States and Georgia Southern fans have all had the same debates years ago. They are barely a blip on the radar in the national scene and some would say they aren't even a blip. Then again those same folks would say NDSU isn't really either but I'd disagree. Only because of the Exposure of Wentz in the draft and then being one of the crop of new QB stars in the NFL.

[WestCoastAggie]

This can sound arrogant and it probably will, but if ndsu does not get 6 home games and a fair chance to play for a national title every year, this is a non-starter.

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I would think that is not out of the realm of possibilities (think 2 for 1 contracts with Minn & Iowa State for example) on top of increased game guarantees that can reach $1 million per game.

Could the Summit also possibly be home to a future FBS conference anchored by the Dakota school’s? I could then see possibly pinching off a few of the MAC West schools and NMSU as cannon fodder.

Again just some outside the box brainstorming. Overall, y’all are the Alabama of the FCS level and we gotta really find our equivalent to Clemson.

[WestCoastAggie]

Not to mention that if NDSU and the other schools some have mentioned in the other thread (Boring..just move up already) were to somehow agree to working out a new fbs conference that the NCAA were to allow we'd be about as relevant as the Sunbelt, Cusa ect. Not knocking the schools in those conferences but look at the exposure they get. It's not much if your trying to compare FBS conferences as a whole. It's the P5 and then everyone else and it matters not if you are G5 or top tier FCS. Lionsrking is right that I'd say NDSU gets better exposure or national recognition than any of the Sun Belt or CUSA Schools. It's not much of an incentive if any at all to say move up to one of those conferences as I don't see it as a move up. Hell this has all been hashed and rehashed on this board so many times and not just about NDSU. The App States and Georgia Southern fans have all had the same debates years ago. They are barely a blip on the radar in the national scene and some would say they aren't even a blip. Then again those same folks would say NDSU isn't really either but I'd disagree. Only because of the Exposure of Wentz in the draft and then being one of the crop of new QB stars in the NFL.

A big atvantage App State has right now is the ability to command a much higher rate of pay for an OOC game.

I also think they’re clamoring for a chance to make the CFP or NYE 6 Bowl soon.

That doesn’t take away from what you are doing and will continue to do. It’s just that financially, there are limits to what you can do on the FCS level.

Y’all are well beyond ready to become a household name on the FBS level.

Honestly, if I’m the Mountain West, I’d invite you all as a football only associate to compliment Gonzaga coming over from the WCC.

[BisonBacker]

A big atvantage App State has right now is the ability to command a much higher rate of pay for an OOC game.

I also think they’re clamoring for a chance to make the CFP or NYE 6 Bowl soon.

That doesn’t take away from what you are doing and will continue to do. It’s just that financially, there are limits to what you can do on the FCS level.

Y’all are well beyond ready to become a household name on the FBS level.

Honestly, if I’m the Mountain West, I’d invite you all as a football only associate to compliment Gonzaga coming over from the WCC.

That may be true but in the grand scheme of things what difference does it make? They still don't get any better name recognition over NDSU.

[uni88]

I would think that is not out of the realm of possibilities (think 2 for 1 contracts with Minn & Iowa State for example) on top of increased game guarantees that can reach $1 million per game.

Could the Summit also possibly be home to a future FBS conference anchored by the Dakota school’s? I could then see possibly pinching off a few of the MAC West schools and NMSU as cannon fodder.

Again just some outside the box brainstorming. Overall, y’all are the Alabama of the FCS level and we gotta really find our equivalent to Clemson.

I don't think MAC West schools have any interest in the Dakotas. Northern Illinois (NIU) is the furthest west, then Ball State (Indiana but closer to Ohio then Illinois) and the others are in Michigan and Ohio. It's about 600 miles from Buffalo in the east to DeKalb (NIU) in the west. It's also about 600 miles from DeKalb to Fargo. Adding NDSU would double the geographic size of the conference. Splitting off from the MAC to form a new conference with the Dakotas would significantly increase travel costs

[TheKingpin28]

I would think that is not out of the realm of possibilities (think 2 for 1 contracts with Minn & Iowa State for example) on top of increased game guarantees that can reach $1 million per game.

Could the Summit also possibly be home to a future FBS conference anchored by the Dakota school’s? I could then see possibly pinching off a few of the MAC West schools and NMSU as cannon fodder.

Again just some outside the box brainstorming. Overall, y’all are the Alabama of the FCS level and we gotta really find our equivalent to Clemson.

Summit to the FBS wont happen due to the teams in the conference. I'd rather stay in the FCS until the G5 is included in the national title playoffs.

[TennBison]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really
Actually, the really sad thing is that no one in the whole country outside of fans of your current conference and team has a clue or a care about what your football program is doing. NDSU is a bigger brand and more well known these days by the average Joe or football fan. We will make a move when and if the stars align themselves in the right way.

[AppApp]

FargoDome also going on 30 years old relic status, one would think they could muster the money to get a new facility by now, but maybe not if the State is broke that's going to hold them back for a long time

[TheKingpin28]

FargoDome also going on 30 years old relic status, one would think they could muster the money to get a new facility by now, but maybe not if the State is broke that's going to hold them back for a long timeYou clearly have no idea the disdain Bismarck has for NDSU. When a vast amount of the legislative branch comes from GFCC, of course the better school is going to get shat on.

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[Professor Chaos]

FargoDome also going on 30 years old relic status, one would think they could muster the money to get a new facility by now, but maybe not if the State is broke that's going to hold them back for a long time
The state is far from broke, I just don't think you understand politics in ND. Our legislature is extremely tight and ND has way to ****ing many 4 year state universities (off the top of my head I think it's 6) so the higher ed funding pie is split into too many pieces on top of the fact that the state will never send more dollars to NDSU than they'll send to UND. On top of that the state and municipality of Fargo are currently more worried about funding their nearly $1B share (I think it's in that neighborhood now but I may be wrong) of a massive diversion project to permanently protect Fargo from the flooding Red River. The NDSU student body has consistently voted down any proposal to increase student fees for the athletic department, despite them being among the lowest in the FCS, to the point that the student section for football games was actually shrunk by a section this year. For any capital project NDSU Athletics has had to fund recently they've needed to raise all the money privately before the state board of higher ed will even approve it and a new stadium would be no different. That's a lot of cheese to scrounge up amongst your donor base. The city of Fargo doesn't have much interest in replacing the Fargodome either because it still suits the city's needs just fine and they have bigger fish to fry like that aforementioned diversion project.

So it's not a matter of the state being broke it's a matter of the mentality here that state/student funds should not and will not be spent on "frivolous things" like college athletics or a football stadium. It's one of the reasons that ND is consistently one of the only states with a budget surplus and also one of the reasons why NDSU moving up doesn't make cents (pun intended) right now.

[Twentysix]

FargoDome also going on 30 years old relic status, one would think they could muster the money to get a new facility by now, but maybe not if the State is broke that's going to hold them back for a long time

Quite the opposite, it's one of the only states that isn't broke, because they do exactly the opposite of what you desire. If North Dakota was embodied by a human consumer, it would be a crotchety old lady that has bought everything in cash her entire life, never wasted a singlecent on interest payments. It's a practice that has immense positives, but it certainly restricts ones ability to experience rapid economic growth. ND is the person who pays in cash for a house and a new car.

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[RootinFerDukes]

I’m shocked ndsu students are even given the power to vote on their own fees. I’ve always thought the university’s board of visitors had that fee determination power.

Of course students will say no to raising their tuition and fees. Why wouldn’t they? JMU students or anyone else would do the same. That’s why boards don’t give them that voting power.

[RootinFerDukes]

Do state funded bonds not exist in ND? JMU has raised some private funds but the reality is that unless you’re P5, you can’t raise the private funds to 100% fund a new facility or renovation.

You borrow money from the state and pay it back over decades as a loan.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

The state is far from broke, I just don't think you understand politics in ND. Our legislature is extremely tight and ND has way to ****ing many 4 year state universities (off the top of my head I think it's 6) so the higher ed funding pie is split into too many pieces on top of the fact that the state will never send more dollars to NDSU than they'll send to UND. On top of that the state and municipality of Fargo are currently more worried about funding their nearly $1B share (I think it's in that neighborhood now but I may be wrong) of a massive diversion project to permanently protect Fargo from the flooding Red River. The NDSU student body has consistently voted down any proposal to increase student fees for the athletic department, despite them being among the lowest in the FCS, to the point that the student section for football games was actually shrunk by a section this year. For any capital project NDSU Athletics has had to fund recently they've needed to raise all the money privately before the state board of higher ed will even approve it and a new stadium would be no different. That's a lot of cheese to scrounge up amongst your donor base. The city of Fargo doesn't have much interest in replacing the Fargodome either because it still suits the city's needs just fine and they have bigger fish to fry like that aforementioned diversion project.

So it's not a matter of the state being broke it's a matter of the mentality here that state/student funds should not and will not be spent on "frivolous things" like college athletics or a football stadium. It's one of the reasons that ND is consistently one of the only states with a budget surplus and also one of the reasons why NDSU moving up doesn't make cents (pun intended) right now.


Counting JUCOs I think there are 11 public institutions in the state which is ridiculous.

Also, I would be for counting down another section in the student section. Potential season ticket holders would snatch them up in no time.

[NDSUtk]

You clearly have no idea the disdain Bismarck has for NDSU. When a vast amount of the legislative branch comes from GFCC, of course the better school is going to get shat on.

Sent from my SM-J727V using TapatalkNaw man, he's just trolling. Clearly.

[Laker]

I’m shocked ndsu students are even given the power to vote on their own fees. I’ve always thought the university’s board of visitors had that fee determination power.

Of course students will say no to raising their tuition and fees. Why wouldn’t they? JMU students or anyone else would do the same. That’s why boards don’t give them that voting power.

Not always. MSU-Mankato students voted to approve an inflatable dome for both team and student use. I was surprised that it passed by as much as it did.

http://blog.mnsu.edu/csu/?p=1798

[Professor Chaos]

I’m shocked ndsu students are even given the power to vote on their own fees. I’ve always thought the university’s board of visitors had that fee determination power.

Of course students will say no to raising their tuition and fees. Why wouldn’t they? JMU students or anyone else would do the same. That’s why boards don’t give them that voting power.
I think that requirement that the students have a say in fee increases is a directive from the SBOHE (state board of higher education). The SBOHE is very sensitive to any tuition increase and NDSU, like every other university in the last 10 years, has seen a significant increase so this is the SBOHE's way of forcing ND universities to limit increases earmarked for "extra-curricular" expenses.


Do state funded bonds not exist in ND? JMU has raised some private funds but the reality is that unless you’re P5, you can’t raise the private funds to 100% fund a new facility or renovation.

You borrow money from the state and pay it back over decades as a loan.
I believe that bonds are not allowed for capital projects for athletics for ND universities by the SBOHE. At least that's the precedent that has been set. I would guess an exception could be made but I wouldn't hold my breath. What enabled the Fargodome (and the Alerus Center in Grand Forks) to be built was partnering with the city and selling it as a multipurpose facility. The Fargodome still suits the city of Fargo just fine but NDSU (and NDSU football in particular) has a lot of clout in the community so it would be interesting to see what would happen if NDSU threw it's full weight behind pushing for a replacement for the Fargodome. They are planning to build an attached convention center onto the Fargodome though so I'd imagine that would be met with stiff resistance.

FWIW the largest capital project ever for an ND university, the $110M Ralph Engelstad Arena in Grand Forks, was completely funded by a private donor who is the building's namesake and that has led to kind of a power struggle there as well in recent years.

[WeAreThePride]

FargoDome also going on 30 years old relic status, one would think they could muster the money to get a new facility by now, but maybe not if the State is broke that's going to hold them back for a long time
The Fargodome is a well built, well maintained venue. Why should we tear it down at taxpayer expense to build a new one?

[WeAreThePride]

I think that requirement that the students have a say in fee increases is a directive from the SBOHE (state board of higher education). The SBOHE is very sensitive to any tuition increase and NDSU, like every other university in the last 10 years, has seen a significant increase so this is the SBOHE's way of forcing ND universities to limit increases earmarked for "extra-curricular" expenses.


I believe that bonds are not allowed for capital projects for athletics for ND universities by the SBOHE. At least that's the precedent that has been set. I would guess an exception could be made but I wouldn't hold my breath. What enabled the Fargodome (and the Alerus Center in Grand Forks) to be built was partnering with the city and selling it as a multipurpose facility. The Fargodome still suits the city of Fargo just fine but NDSU (and NDSU football in particular) has a lot of clout in the community so it would be interesting to see what would happen if NDSU threw it's full weight behind pushing for a replacement for the Fargodome. They are planning to build an attached convention center onto the Fargodome though so I'd imagine that would be met with stiff resistance.

FWIW the largest capital project ever for an ND university, the $110M Ralph Engelstad Arena in Grand Forks, was completely funded by a private donor who is the building's namesake and that has led to kind of a power struggle there as well in recent years.
Far and away the best hockey stadium in the world.

[Reign of Terrier]

Why? They have a much larger national profile than App State does right now. They're doing just fine where they are it seems to me.

no they don't.

[centennial]

I’m shocked ndsu students are even given the power to vote on their own fees. I’ve always thought the university’s board of visitors had that fee determination power.

Of course students will say no to raising their tuition and fees. Why wouldn’t they? JMU students or anyone else would do the same. That’s why boards don’t give them that voting power.

I was in the student body long time ago. No way anyone votes yes. I heard bitching about the few hundred dollar student fees(only a part of it went to athletics). Add to that indoor stadiums cost a LOT. NDSU could try to go with an inflatable 30,000 stadium for a nice 80-100 million vs 250 but I don't think the community alone can support it. Something like this but much bigger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH2v882MvLI

[Hammerhead]

The Fargodome was paid for by a sales tax levied in the city of Fargo. The only involvement with the state was allowing NDSU to lease the land for $1 per year or something like that.

[Noryan34]

I think that requirement that the students have a say in fee increases is a directive from the SBOHE (state board of higher education). The SBOHE is very sensitive to any tuition increase and NDSU, like every other university in the last 10 years, has seen a significant increase so this is the SBOHE's way of forcing ND universities to limit increases earmarked for "extra-curricular" expenses.


I believe that bonds are not allowed for capital projects for athletics for ND universities by the SBOHE. At least that's the precedent that has been set. I would guess an exception could be made but I wouldn't hold my breath. What enabled the Fargodome (and the Alerus Center in Grand Forks) to be built was partnering with the city and selling it as a multipurpose facility. The Fargodome still suits the city of Fargo just fine but NDSU (and NDSU football in particular) has a lot of clout in the community so it would be interesting to see what would happen if NDSU threw it's full weight behind pushing for a replacement for the Fargodome. They are planning to build an attached convention center onto the Fargodome though so I'd imagine that would be met with stiff resistance.

FWIW the largest capital project ever for an ND university, the $110M Ralph Engelstad Arena in Grand Forks, was completely funded by a private donor who is the building's namesake and that has led to kind of a power struggle there as well in recent years.

This is good info. Not only does ND have relatively low taxes they also have a smaller base of people to draw those taxes from as it is one of the least populated states. Those two combined result in lower tax revenue and raising taxes in ND for just about anything is near impossible. Meaning an increase in NDSU budget for the sole purpose of athletic funding would be very difficult sell. If they went the student fees route they would need to raise student fees by $1500 or more as the current undergrad population at NDSU is like 11-12k. That would be a 15-20% increase in tuition costs to essentially fund football. Yes you can raise ticket prices but that revenue could potentially fluctuate with success of the football program.

That leaves very few options for increasing the athletic budget. Private donors are one thing but the increase in donations would need to increase and remain constant for a long period of time which isnt necessarily an option due to the lower alumni population just based on a smaller enrollment over the years than many other schools.

For a new stadium that really just leaves the city of Fargo to partially or fully fund a new stadium which as just stated earlier (Cue reference for who said it) now have to figure out how to fund a billion dollar river diversion project for flood protection. Doubt they will take on two huge capital projects at the same time.

Bringing in a private donor to fund a stadium while maybe possible is unlikely as NDSU recently had a new sports arena corporately funded and are trying to fund an IPF right now as well. Plus as seen at UND allowing a private donor to fund a stadium can lead to all sorts of issues with what to do with that stadium. UND had some issues when their nickname was required to be changed.

Other than an obvious conference, money is the biggest hurdle to overcome.

FWIW, North Dakota is already towards the top as far as state funding for higher education is concerned

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/slideshows/states-investing-most-in-higher-education-per-person?slide=4

[Gil Dobie]

The Fargodome was paid for by a sales tax levied in the city of Fargo. The only involvement with the state was allowing NDSU to lease the land for $1 per year or something like that.

Doesn't NDSU own the land, or is it the Dome they rent. I remember playing intramural soft ball on the Fargodome site.

[crusader11]

Too far west for the MAC.

Too far east for the MWC.



If Creighton can play in the Big East, I don't see why NDSU couldn't play in either of these conferences.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

no they don't.

Yeah, that's highly debatable, especially considering both the TV ratings and national media coverage of the lower-tier bowl games is better than that of any of the FCS playoffs

[Bisonator]

7 titles in 8 years and still can't muster enough money to come and compete with like minded FBS state schools, I don't even see any talk of it.

Is the state of North Dakota just financially broke or what?

Its kinda sad at this point really
Not sure what the State of ND's financials have to do with NDSU going FBS. NDSU gets little to nothing from the state for their AD. They have one of the smallest subsidies of any school in the country. That's not going to change and shouldn't. What's sad is schools saddling the finiancial burdens of their AD decisions onto their students.

[Thumper 76]

NDSU & SDSU have been partners since the 1900s. Nothing will get NDSU to move all sports to FBS without their supportive partner.

With Augustana moving to Summit, anchored in Sioux Falls, not changing anytime soon.



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I’m not sure I agree with that. SDSU is far from being ready for FBS from a fan support standpoint, and if ndsu gets an fbs invite they might prefer to have SDSU come along but if they get an invite they’ll take it. I think a lot of the good will between the athletic departments has dissipated recently.

I'm not sure attendence and support would be maintained for a G5 product.

I would be fascinated to see how it went.


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[JacksFan40]

I’m not sure I agree with that. SDSU is far from being ready for FBS from a fan support standpoint, and if ndsu gets an fbs invite they might prefer to have SDSU come along but if they get an invite they’ll take it. I think a lot of the good will between the athletic departments has dissipated recently.


I would be fascinated to see how it went.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Our fan support isn’t even NAIA some games.

[BisonBacker]

I’m not sure I agree with that. SDSU is far from being ready for FBS from a fan support standpoint, and if ndsu gets an fbs invite they might prefer to have SDSU come along but if they get an invite they’ll take it. I think a lot of the good will between the athletic departments has dissipated recently.


I would be fascinated to see how it went.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe fans but I don't see that with the two schools. Why do you think it's dissipated?

[Anthony215]

Why move up and then need to spend more money on scholarships, compete with bigger schools with more resources in better geographical areas of the country and never compete for a national championship when they have it made in FCS football?

[RabidRabbit]

Show me ANY conference that wants ONLY NDSU to join. The only conference that wants the Bison for all sports is the Summit. No other schools are within a bus ride except for Dakota schools and MN. Big 10 or 12, not happening. Be independent for football, and go below 6 home games in Fargo. Not happening.

When starting this venture to DI in early 2000s, many of the progressive NCC schools made the case to move up together.

If Augustana moves up, as expected only St Cloud St and Minn St (Mankato) of the old NCC are still DII. All but 2 of the D I are in the Summit (No IA, No Colo). The summit is the new NCC with a couple of prior Summit members. WIU is the only original MidCon still in Summit.


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[Laker]

Show me ANY conference that wants ONLY NDSU to join. The only conference that wants the Bison for all sports is the Summit. No other schools are within a bus ride except for Dakota schools and MN. Big 10 or 12, not happening. Be independent for football, and go below 6 home games in Fargo. Not happening.

When starting this venture to DI in early 2000s, many of the progressive NCC schools made the case to move up together.

If Augustana moves up, as expected only St Cloud St and Minn St (Mankato) of the old NCC are still DII. All but 2 of the D I are in the Summit (No IA, No Colo). The summit is the new NCC with a couple of prior Summit members. WIU is the only original MidCon still in Summit.

I'm wondering when the Summit invites Augie. I don't think that they would have made an announcement if they didn't already have an invite. MSU and SCSU have sunk so much money into men's & women's hockey that they can't afford to go D1 in all sports. MSU just started building a new locker room for football this week so I can't see them dropping football to go D1. SCSU doesn't have the money either.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

After Clemson dominates Alabama, the Tide officially have a peer...

NDSU>>>Alabama's dominance at this point....

[SUPharmacist]

I was in the student body long time ago. No way anyone votes yes. I heard bitching about the few hundred dollar student fees(only a part of it went to athletics). Add to that indoor stadiums cost a LOT. NDSU could try to go with an inflatable 30,000 stadium for a nice 80-100 million vs 250 but I don't think the community alone can support it. Something like this but much bigger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH2v882MvLI

I wouldn't want something like that anyway, but as someone with no architectural or engineering knowledge anyone know how feasible something like that would be at a size of 30,000 seats in Fargo. I loved my time at NDSU and in Fargo, but have spent most of my life in the Twin Cities and I remember when the Metrodome roof collapsed and just feel like that type of dome looks prime for a cave-in with Fargo's wind and snowfall.

[SUPharmacist]

For a new stadium that really just leaves the city of Fargo to partially or fully fund a new stadium which as just stated earlier (Cue reference for who said it) now have to figure out how to fund a billion dollar river diversion project for flood protection. Doubt they will take on two huge capital projects at the same time.


Since leaving Fargo, I have lost track of ND politics and budgets on projects like the Red River Diversion. Is the state helping Fargo with the cost or just giving the middle finger to their largest city? Also, are Moorhead and MN contributing or just leaving Fargo and ND with the bill since they have more to protect (I know I read an article not that long ago stating the project had a bunch of red tape from the MN DNR to account for)?

[BisonBacker]

Since leaving Fargo, I have lost track of ND politics and budgets on projects like the Red River Diversion. Is the state helping Fargo with the cost or just giving the middle finger to their largest city? Also, are Moorhead and MN contributing or just leaving Fargo and ND with the bill since they have more to protect (I know I read an article not that long ago stating the project had a bunch of red tape from the MN DNR to account for)?

There is a whole thread on the FM Diversion in the lounge that answers all these questions and is updated whenever there is new news on the topic xthumbsupx

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?170201-Fargo-Moorhead-Metro-Diversion-project-discussion

[BisonBacker]

I wouldn't want something like that anyway, but as someone with no architectural or engineering knowledge anyone know how feasible something like that would be at a size of 30,000 seats in Fargo. I loved my time at NDSU and in Fargo, but have spent most of my life in the Twin Cities and I remember when the Metrodome roof collapsed and just feel like that type of dome looks prime for a cave-in with Fargo's wind and snowfall.


Hell no. No way it would last in this climate. Even the golf bubble in Fargo regularly had trouble. I don't even know what's going on with that thing since it's last collapse. Honesty don't even know if it's still around.

[dewey]

There is a whole thread on the FM Diversion in the lounge that answers all these questions and is updated whenever there is new news on the topic xthumbsupx

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?170201-Fargo-Moorhead-Metro-Diversion-project-discussion

Thanks for posting the link to the FMM flood protection thread.

Dewey

[NDSUtk]

Hell no. No way it would last in this climate. Even the golf bubble in Fargo regularly had trouble. I don't even know what's going on with that thing since it's last collapse. Honesty don't even know if it's still around.Soccer club in town bought it to make it their practice facility.

[TennBison]

no they don't.
Yes.........we do.

[Catbooster]

Why? They have a much larger national profile than App State does right now. They're doing just fine where they are it seems to me.


no they don't.


Yes.........we do.

These arguments about exposure and relevance are always fun. The average person in this neck of the woods (750 miles from Fargo?) is more aware of the Bison and their accomplishments than they are of Appalachian State or Georgia Southern. It's been 11 years since App State beat Michigan or were in the news because of national championships. 18 years since GSU won a championship. 5 or 6 years since they both transitioned to FBS and totally disappeared from any coverage around here, other than the fine print on the sports page listing all of the no-name bowls at the end of the season.

I have no doubt that App State and Geo Southern are more commonly known where you are (YT - not picking on you specifically, you're just a recent example to quote), probably within a couple hundred miles from them, where the tv, radio and papers cover them more. They are probably better known than the Bison in the areas where their Sun Belt conference mates are as well.

IMO "relevance" is a poor choice of words for this debate. Arguably, college football teams have little real relevance. Awareness or exposure are what I think we're really talking about. And I would argue that even half of the P-5 teams don't enter into most peoples' awareness. Other than serious college football fans, I'll bet relatively few people could name all of the teams in the P-5 conferences.

I'm not convinced that a move up to FBS would increase NDSU's exposure much. They already have their entire state (and probably regional) media covering them.

In the case of my school, I wouldn't expect that we'd get more coverage within the state with a move up. We (or the Griz, depending on the opponents, town, etc.) are already usually the lead story on the evening news or the local papers in the state. We wouldn't get more coverage in Statesboro or Boone (or Spokane, or Denver, or...) just because we moved to FBS. Only if we were in their conference or the week we play them. About the only added coverage would be if you're playing on a Tuesday night on ESPN or something. And I'm not so sure that a lot of the people watching those games don't consider those games as just background entertainment - not important games that they watch closely - or remember a week later.

A lot of FCS fans complain that their school has to compete against the near-by NFL and/or FBS teams for the local casual fans and that it puts them at a disadvantage compared to the Dakotas, Montanas, etc. I can see how in that position you view moving from FCS to FBS as an increase in exposure. But to many of us without that problem it isn't so obvious that moving to FBS is worth the cost.

[Reign of Terrier]

Yes.........we do.


These arguments about exposure and relevance are always fun. The average person in this neck of the woods (750 miles from Fargo?) is more aware of the Bison and their accomplishments than they are of Appalachian State or Georgia Southern. It's been 11 years since App State beat Michigan or were in the news because of national championships. 18 years since GSU won a championship. 5 or 6 years since they both transitioned to FBS and totally disappeared from any coverage around here, other than the fine print on the sports page listing all of the no-name bowls at the end of the season.

I have no doubt that App State and Geo Southern are more commonly known where you are (YT - not picking on you specifically, you're just a recent example to quote), probably within a couple hundred miles from them, where the tv, radio and papers cover them more. They are probably better known than the Bison in the areas where their Sun Belt conference mates are as well.

IMO "relevance" is a poor choice of words for this debate. Arguably, college football teams have little real relevance. Awareness or exposure are what I think we're really talking about. And I would argue that even half of the P-5 teams don't enter into most peoples' awareness. Other than serious college football fans, I'll bet relatively few people could name all of the teams in the P-5 conferences.

I'm not convinced that a move up to FBS would increase NDSU's exposure much. They already have their entire state (and probably regional) media covering them.

In the case of my school, I wouldn't expect that we'd get more coverage within the state with a move up. We (or the Griz, depending on the opponents, town, etc.) are already usually the lead story on the evening news or the local papers in the state. We wouldn't get more coverage in Statesboro or Boone (or Spokane, or Denver, or...) just because we moved to FBS. Only if we were in their conference or the week we play them. About the only added coverage would be if you're playing on a Tuesday night on ESPN or something. And I'm not so sure that a lot of the people watching those games don't consider those games as just background entertainment - not important games that they watch closely - or remember a week later.

A lot of FCS fans complain that their school has to compete against the near-by NFL and/or FBS teams for the local casual fans and that it puts them at a disadvantage compared to the Dakotas, Montanas, etc. I can see how in that position you view moving from FCS to FBS as an increase in exposure. But to many of us without that problem it isn't so obvious that moving to FBS is worth the cost.

I hate to bust the Bison's balls but you don't see major football publications talk about North Dakota State outside of the novelty FCS playoff story every December. I don't read publications or websites that cover football outside of the Southeast (ACC, SEC, and teams found in those states), so maybe I'm biased (I don't think they actually exist). Still, if you look at CFB media you will find literally 0 mention of FCS teams outside of the time they play an FBS team or in the playoffs. But when they're successful, you'll see stories about App State, Georgia Southern, etc. There were quite a few articles written about how App was underrated and should have been considered for NY6 over UCF before they lost to Georgia Southern.

As a Comms/PR guy, I can tell you there are at least 2 ways to measure whether or not you're getting more or less exposure. Merchandise sales are a good proxy, but it's possible if not likely that NDSU has more by virtue of being a flagship university (though western NC has a bigger population). Another one is how many times you're mentioned outside of local media. When App took Penn State to OT it probably generated just as much media as NDSU winning the 7th title. You may say "oh man, that happened, I don't remember that???" Exactly. No one remembers your titles either, until we're reminded one random afternoon in January when you win one. People remember App beating Michigan because it was such a monumental upset; now NDSU will probably never schedule a spectacular ranked team ever again because everyone knows they're good (and thus could win) and thus won't schedule.

Being FCS in this situation is a roadblock to exposure. Meanwhile, App State got a home and home with Miami, Wake Forest, North Carolina, East Carolina, and South Carolina. That's not happening without brand recognition. P5 teams are willing to risk a loss and forgo lost revenue with a home game because losing to them isn't seen as humiliating. Are there are any other G5 schools (especially in the sun belt?) that can say that? The P5 doesn't do that unless you're a team with brand recognition and publicity.

The fundamental difference is that being FBS gives you the opportunity to be mentioned on sportscenter, etc more often throughout the football season than does the FCS. They literally do not care about FCS until late playoff time unless there's an upset. You're also more likely to get an ESPN game outside of the bowl game.

So we can go back and forth about "no we don't, yes we do" but whenever I hear a Bison fan talk about how their brand is the greatest compared to App State (it probably is better than Georgia southern right now) but until we have evidence to back up that claim I'm going to say it's wrong because there's more readily at hand evidence suggesting otherwise (more sportscenter appearances, more televised games, everyone remembers App State over Michigan, etc)

[walliver]

The main key to App's success in FBS is that they were drawing 25-30K fans per game while in FCS.
Last year of FCS --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Appalachian_State_Mountaineers_football_team
only one home game had less than 20K

On the other hand, their FBS attendance is only slightly higher
Last season --> https://appstatesports.com/news/2018/1/10/football-app-state-repeats-as-sun-belt-attendance-leader.aspx

I don't know what NDSU's upside potential for attendance would be with a new stadium, but spending many millions to build a brand new stadium is quite risky without a reliable prediction. The FargoDome would allow them to meet the FBS minimum (without all the machinations Coastal goes through), but 18,700 is somewhat small for a sustainable FBS program. Building a new indoor arena seating 30,000 would take a lot of fracking money. Any increase to a smaller size probably would make no financial sense. NDSU is not getting invited to the Big 10, Big 12, or PAC-12 - what other conferences would provide home games that are any more attractive than their current schedule?

P.S. Maybe the Bison can have Delta airlines replace the seating. They could probably fit 35,000 in the dome.

[Reign of Terrier]

The main key to App's success in FBS is that they were drawing 25-30K fans per game while in FCS.
Last year of FCS --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Appalachian_State_Mountaineers_football_team
only one home game had less than 20K

On the other hand, their FBS attendance is only slightly higher
Last season --> https://appstatesports.com/news/2018/1/10/football-app-state-repeats-as-sun-belt-attendance-leader.aspx

I don't know what NDSU's upside potential for attendance would be with a new stadium, but spending many millions to build a brand new stadium is quite risky without a reliable prediction. The FargoDome would allow them to meet the FBS minimum (without all the machinations Coastal goes through), but 18,700 is somewhat small for a sustainable FBS program. Building a new indoor arena seating 30,000 would take a lot of fracking money. Any increase to a smaller size probably would make no financial sense. NDSU is not getting invited to the Big 10, Big 12, or PAC-12 - what other conferences would provide home games that are any more attractive than their current schedule?

P.S. Maybe the Bison can have Delta airlines replace the seating. They could probably fit 35,000 in the dome.

Maybe NDSU is having that game at Target Field to beta test attendance in a bigger venue...

[POD Knows]

Maybe NDSU is having that game at Target Field to beta test attendance in a bigger venue...We already did that when we played the Goofers twice in Minneapolis.

[Southern Bison]

I hate to bust the Bison's balls but you don't see major football publications talk about North Dakota State outside of the novelty FCS playoff story every December. I don't read publications or websites that cover football outside of the Southeast (ACC, SEC, and teams found in those states), so maybe I'm biased (I don't think they actually exist). Still, if you look at CFB media you will find literally 0 mention of FCS teams outside of the time they play an FBS team or in the playoffs. But when they're successful, you'll see stories about App State, Georgia Southern, etc. There were quite a few articles written about how App was underrated and should have been considered for NY6 over UCF before they lost to Georgia Southern.

As a Comms/PR guy, I can tell you there are at least 2 ways to measure whether or not you're getting more or less exposure. Merchandise sales are a good proxy, but it's possible if not likely that NDSU has more by virtue of being a flagship university (though western NC has a bigger population). Another one is how many times you're mentioned outside of local media. When App took Penn State to OT it probably generated just as much media as NDSU winning the 7th title. You may say "oh man, that happened, I don't remember that???" Exactly. No one remembers your titles either, until we're reminded one random afternoon in January when you win one. People remember App beating Michigan because it was such a monumental upset; now NDSU will probably never schedule a spectacular ranked team ever again because everyone knows they're good (and thus could win) and thus won't schedule.

Being FCS in this situation is a roadblock to exposure. Meanwhile, App State got a home and home with Miami, Wake Forest, North Carolina, East Carolina, and South Carolina. That's not happening without brand recognition. P5 teams are willing to risk a loss and forgo lost revenue with a home game because losing to them isn't seen as humiliating. Are there are any other G5 schools (especially in the sun belt?) that can say that? The P5 doesn't do that unless you're a team with brand recognition and publicity.

The fundamental difference is that being FBS gives you the opportunity to be mentioned on sportscenter, etc more often throughout the football season than does the FCS. They literally do not care about FCS until late playoff time unless there's an upset. You're also more likely to get an ESPN game outside of the bowl game.

So we can go back and forth about "no we don't, yes we do" but whenever I hear a Bison fan talk about how their brand is the greatest compared to App State (it probably is better than Georgia southern right now) but until we have evidence to back up that claim I'm going to say it's wrong because there's more readily at hand evidence suggesting otherwise (more sportscenter appearances, more televised games, everyone remembers App State over Michigan, etc)5 paragraphs to admit you have no clue about football outside of the Carolinas & Georgia. Stop pontificating on **** you habe no clue about since you're tiny-ass school is shrouded by Clemson & the Gamecocks in the GSP papers.

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[IBleedYellow]

NDSU vs App State in the Reddit.com/r/CFB subreddit.



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190110/9c8890208ab1bea82ba062613dd1a0df.jpg

[Catbooster]

I hope you don't mind if I separate this so it's easier to reply:

I hate to bust the Bison's balls but you don't see major football publications talk about North Dakota State outside of the novelty FCS playoff story every December. I don't read publications or websites that cover football outside of the Southeast (ACC, SEC, and teams found in those states), so maybe I'm biased (I don't think they actually exist). Still, if you look at CFB media you will find literally 0 mention of FCS teams outside of the time they play an FBS team or in the playoffs. But when they're successful, you'll see stories about App State, Georgia Southern, etc. There were quite a few articles written about how App was underrated and should have been considered for NY6 over UCF before they lost to Georgia Southern.

I don't have any problem with you busting Bison balls, since I'm not an NDSU fan. :D

So we agree. Where you are located and the media sources you use affects your perception on this. It's not shocking that if all of your sources only cover teams in the southeast, you don't get much coverage of NDSU. Conversely, people here are more aware of NDSU than Vanderbilt, a member of the highly touted SEC. I'll bet that if you polled people in Montana, the Dakotas and much of the surrounding states, more people would know that the mascot of NDSU is the Bison than would know that Vanderbilt's is the Commodores. Most people out here wouldn't know what state Vanderbilt is in. And those who are familiar with them probably know that because of basketball.

I assume you're joking when you say you don't think other sources exist since you posted that on this site.


As a Comms/PR guy, I can tell you there are at least 2 ways to measure whether or not you're getting more or less exposure. Merchandise sales are a good proxy, but it's possible if not likely that NDSU has more by virtue of being a flagship university (though western NC has a bigger population). Another one is how many times you're mentioned outside of local media. When App took Penn State to OT it probably generated just as much media as NDSU winning the 7th title. You may say "oh man, that happened, I don't remember that???" Exactly. No one remembers your titles either, until we're reminded one random afternoon in January when you win one. People remember App beating Michigan because it was such a monumental upset; now NDSU will probably never schedule a spectacular ranked team ever again because everyone knows they're good (and thus could win) and thus won't schedule.

Around here, App State taking Penn State to OT did not get anywhere close to the media that NDSU's championship did. But ignoring that, you just agreed with my point that just being FBS doesn't make your accomplishments more memorable or better exposure by agreeing that both are easily forgotten even where you are, with your emphasis on southeastern teams. And my point about the Michigan upset was that those of us who remember that are a small group. The current players in various colleges were probably less than 10 years old when it happened and it's getting further in the rear view mirror every year. It was a huge upset but who cares? It's ancient history for many people. Do you think that a current recruit - or prospective student considering where to continue their education after high school - is going to let that sway where they go?

Sorry - I'm out of time. I'll have to leave the rest of your post for later.

[mmiller_34]

I mean NDSU did host College Gameday twice...

[cx500d]

We already did that when we played the Goofers twice in Minneapolis.
Thrice?

[POD Knows]

Thrice?I only counted the ones we win, I mentally block out all of the other ones but yea, three times and we dominated that first game as well.

[Reign of Terrier]

5 paragraphs to admit you have no clue about football outside of the Carolinas & Georgia. Stop pontificating on **** you habe no clue about since you're tiny-ass school is shrouded by Clemson & the Gamecocks in the GSP papers.

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Show me how many times App State is mentioned in a non-NC publication throughout the season.

Show me how many times NDSU is mentioned in a non-North Dakota publication outside of December or every other year when you beat an FBS team.

It's that simple. Media exposure is measurable.

Also, one of the reasons this site has gone down hill is because a lot of folks from North Dakota hate long responses. They were the norm 10 years ago. Literally the only ones who complain root for that team in Fargo and because there are more of you you speak up more.

[Reign of Terrier]

I hope you don't mind if I separate this so it's easier to reply:


I don't have any problem with you busting Bison balls, since I'm not an NDSU fan. :D

So we agree. Where you are located and the media sources you use affects your perception on this. It's not shocking that if all of your sources only cover teams in the southeast, you don't get much coverage of NDSU. Conversely, people here are more aware of NDSU than Vanderbilt, a member of the highly touted SEC. I'll bet that if you polled people in Montana, the Dakotas and much of the surrounding states, more people would know that the mascot of NDSU is the Bison than would know that Vanderbilt's is the Commodores. Most people out here wouldn't know what state Vanderbilt is in. And those who are familiar with them probably know that because of basketball.

I assume you're joking when you say you don't think other sources exist since you posted that on this site.



Around here, App State taking Penn State to OT did not get anywhere close to the media that NDSU's championship did. But ignoring that, you just agreed with my point that just being FBS doesn't make your accomplishments more memorable or better exposure by agreeing that both are easily forgotten even where you are, with your emphasis on southeastern teams. And my point about the Michigan upset was that those of us who remember that are a small group. The current players in various colleges were probably less than 10 years old when it happened and it's getting further in the rear view mirror every year. It was a huge upset but who cares? It's ancient history for many people. Do you think that a current recruit - or prospective student considering where to continue their education after high school - is going to let that sway where they go?

Sorry - I'm out of time. I'll have to leave the rest of your post for later.

I will say it again: Media exposure is measurable. Just count how many times you're mentioned in a national publication.

[Gil Dobie]

Show me how many times App State is mentioned in a non-NC publication throughout the season.

Show me how many times NDSU is mentioned in a non-North Dakota publication outside of December or every other year when you beat an FBS team.

It's that simple. Media exposure is measurable.

Also, one of the reasons this site has gone down hill is because a lot of folks from North Dakota hate long responses. They were the norm 10 years ago. Literally the only ones who complain root for that team in Fargo and because there are more of you you speak up more.

I just did a search on both North Dakota State and Appalachian State. There appears to be more national coverage on NDSU right now, even when I add SBNation or another sports site in the search. Most of the App St reports are still on the Penn St game.

[Reign of Terrier]

I just did a search on both North Dakota State and Appalachian State. There appears to be more national coverage on NDSU right now, even when I add SBNation or another sports site in the search. Most of the App St reports are still on the Penn St game.

Yes, because North Dakota just won another national title in the last week. You have to account for recency, among other things. Google will give you the most recent hits. Obviously, this will be hard to measure in the off season, but you would have to look at these numbers between August and December (unless App plays a NY6 game)

[iowastatebison]

Here is a link to the google trends of NDSU and appalachian state. I also included UNI to see what another upper tier FCS school looks like.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9z

[Bisonator]

For those who want us out of FCS start a go fund me page and donate to the cause.:D

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8508125696/hE31B2FE2/

[Reign of Terrier]

Here is a link to the google trends of NDSU and appalachian state. I also included UNI to see what another upper tier FCS school looks like.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9z

Thanks for sharing! I don't know why I didn't think to use google trends. But here's the basic pattern you see: NDSU interest picks up in December/January unless they beat an FBS team, but after that it's kind of spurious. If you want to know how much the SEC runs college football interest, the biggest spike from App State came from an OT loss to Tennessee in week one in the year. The publicity App State got from losses to P5 teams were more than what NDSU got for winning championships. In the last 3 years, App State has gotten more publicity (because they were good and competitive) than any of the prior years.

I added Georgia Southern and extended the archive back to 2004 and found a couple more patterns:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9z,Geor gia%20southern%20Football

Going FBS (and subsequently, quality FBS wins) generated more interest for App State than any FCS title or threepeat did. Georgia Southern has a bit more interest behind compared to their FCS days, if only slightly. In the last 3 years, the exposure of App State/NDSU has been similar. For App State, the last 3 years have created more exposure than the 3peat ever did. Interestingly enough, interest in NDSU has plateaued over the last 3 years. It's possible that the Bison are peaking but that is TBD

Anyway, this a good tool to play with.

[Gil Dobie]

Thanks for sharing! I don't know why I didn't think to use google trends. But here's the basic pattern you see: NDSU interest picks up in December/January unless they beat an FBS team, but after that it's kind of spurious. If you want to know how much the SEC runs college football interest, the biggest spike from App State came from an OT loss to Tennessee in week one in the year. The publicity App State got from losses to P5 teams were more than what NDSU got for winning championships. In the last 3 years, App State has gotten more publicity (because they were good and competitive) than any of the prior years.

I added Georgia Southern and extended the archive back to 2004 and found a couple more patterns:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9z,Geor gia%20southern%20Football

Going FBS (and subsequently, quality FBS wins) generated more interest for App State than any FCS title or threepeat did. Georgia Southern has a bit more interest behind compared to their FCS days, if only slightly. In the last 3 years, the exposure of App State/NDSU has been similar. For App State, the last 3 years have created more exposure than the 3peat ever did. Interestingly enough, interest in NDSU has plateaued over the last 3 years. It's possible that the Bison are peaking but that is TBD

Anyway, this a good tool to play with.

I would assume NDSU would be similar to Wyoming if they went FBS

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F05n02h2

[Reign of Terrier]

I would assume NDSU would be similar to Wyoming if they went FBS

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F05n02h2

I think it would be better because NDSU has had more success. who knows? It's a risk either way.

[NDSUtk]

Thanks for sharing! I don't know why I didn't think to use google trends. But here's the basic pattern you see: NDSU interest picks up in December/January unless they beat an FBS team, but after that it's kind of spurious. If you want to know how much the SEC runs college football interest, the biggest spike from App State came from an OT loss to Tennessee in week one in the year. The publicity App State got from losses to P5 teams were more than what NDSU got for winning championships. In the last 3 years, App State has gotten more publicity (because they were good and competitive) than any of the prior years.

I added Georgia Southern and extended the archive back to 2004 and found a couple more patterns:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9z,Geor gia%20southern%20Football

Going FBS (and subsequently, quality FBS wins) generated more interest for App State than any FCS title or threepeat did. Georgia Southern has a bit more interest behind compared to their FCS days, if only slightly. In the last 3 years, the exposure of App State/NDSU has been similar. For App State, the last 3 years have created more exposure than the 3peat ever did. Interestingly enough, interest in NDSU has plateaued over the last 3 years. It's possible that the Bison are peaking but that is TBD

Anyway, this a good tool to play with.Ask Jeeves

[BisonFan02]

I think it would be better because NDSU has had more success. who knows? It's a risk either way.

My rebuttal is the first 3 mins of this video....its dated, but its still true.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQrWd6kJPZE

[uni88]

Thanks for sharing! I don't know why I didn't think to use google trends. But here's the basic pattern you see: NDSU interest picks up in December/January unless they beat an FBS team, but after that it's kind of spurious. If you want to know how much the SEC runs college football interest, the biggest spike from App State came from an OT loss to Tennessee in week one in the year. The publicity App State got from losses to P5 teams were more than what NDSU got for winning championships. In the last 3 years, App State has gotten more publicity (because they were good and competitive) than any of the prior years.

I added Georgia Southern and extended the archive back to 2004 and found a couple more patterns:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9z,Geor gia%20southern%20Football

Going FBS (and subsequently, quality FBS wins) generated more interest for App State than any FCS title or threepeat did. Georgia Southern has a bit more interest behind compared to their FCS days, if only slightly. In the last 3 years, the exposure of App State/NDSU has been similar. For App State, the last 3 years have created more exposure than the 3peat ever did. Interestingly enough, interest in NDSU has plateaued over the last 3 years. It's possible that the Bison are peaking but that is TBD

Anyway, this a good tool to play with.

While it's possible that NDSU is plateauing, I don't think so. The height of their post-season spikes appear to be trending up. The only spike higher than during their playoff runs was in 2016 when they beat Iowa. The 2016 playoff spike was still healthy despite losing in the semifinals. Their championship spike from 2014 was higher than the spike from beating Iowa State that year.

App St's best years were in 2016 (when they played Tennessee close and also played Miami) and 2018 (when they played Penn State close).

There are similarities but I think NDSU is getting more exposure overall.

[Sader87]

Nobody in Massachusetts cares one whit about either Appy St or NDSU....very few care about Holy Cross if that's any consolation xdrunkyx

[BisonFan02]

Nobody in Massachusetts cares one whit about either Appy St or NDSU....very few care about Holy Cross if that's any consolation xdrunkyx

We don't care about Massachusetts much either.

[Sader87]

One of the dirty, little secrets about why FCS football is mostly overlooked across America is that (for the most part) you can't bet on it. At least that's been the case for the last 30 or so years. FCS betting lines are hardly ever published anywhere etc. "Out of sight.....out of mind"

[BisonFan02]

One of the dirty, little secrets about why FCS football is mostly overlooked across America is that (for the most part) you can't bet on it. At least that's been the case for the last 30 or so years. FCS betting lines are hardly ever published anywhere etc. "Out of sight.....out of mind"

I suppose it only makes sense that a Holy Cross man brings up gambling.

[Twentysix]

Here is a link to the google trends of NDSU and appalachian state. I also included UNI to see what another upper tier FCS school looks like.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F03m3x9zVery interesting.

Looking at interest from a state that is a thousand miles away was pretty interesting.

It looks like yt has this pretty backwards based on Google metrics over 5 years.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190111/d2304b56d364c9a10c3c2b1ed574d591.jpg

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[Reign of Terrier]

While it's possible that NDSU is plateauing, I don't think so. The height of their post-season spikes appear to be trending up. The only spike higher than during their playoff runs was in 2016 when they beat Iowa. The 2016 playoff spike was still healthy despite losing in the semifinals. Their championship spike from 2014 was higher than the spike from beating Iowa State that year.

App St's best years were in 2016 (when they played Tennessee close and also played Miami) and 2018 (when they played Penn State close).

There are similarities but I think NDSU is getting more exposure overall.


Very interesting.

Looking at interest from a state that is a thousand miles away was pretty interesting.

It looks like yt has this pretty backwards based on Google metrics over 5 years.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190111/d2304b56d364c9a10c3c2b1ed574d591.jpg

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It seems there are both comparable, but really if you look at App State they got more exposure for the close losses than NDSU did for the title wins.

It's also worth observing some clear patterns that are relevant to the discussion of moving up to FBS:

1) App State has more exposure now than they ever did in FCS, even with the repeat

2) App State's exposure has increased tremendously in the last 3 years.

So, if you're NDSU, it's certainly possible that FCS is holding you back from reaching higher. (Boise state dwarfs both). Exposure over the long term is cumulative and if App State maintains their success and wins a P5 game (certainly possible), they'll continue their upward trend. I don't see what NDSU could do short of moving up to continue that trend.

[Reign of Terrier]

Here's another long term measure that illustrates my point.

Compare UCF, App State, and NDSU
(https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F08pxkj)
10 years ago, the three schools were pretty much indistinguishable from each other but in the last 2 years UCF has skyrocketed. Meanwhile, Boise State's publicity peaked in 2010 and has been relatively higher (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F0gpmf1)than NDSU since. Point is, FCS national championships don't do much by way of publicity. Sustained success against the big boys over a number of years (in the business they call it brand recognition) does that.

(The more I look at different permutations of trends and see how they seemingly track with one another, the more I think it has more to do with the specific media outlets than one team, but that's a debate for somewhere else.)

[Catbooster]

The internet was fairly new 10 years ago. I'm not sure how meaningful it is to look at internet trends from 10 years ago. Additionally, IIRC that's when NDSU was in transition from D_II or had just finished the transition.

Edit to add: And App State was fresh off their championship run and Michigan wins.

[ST_Lawson]

The internet was fairly new 10 years ago.

You could say that the internet was a much different place 10 years ago (as was the FCS landscape), but "fairly new" is not really something you could attach to it.
10 years ago I was just starting my current job as a web developer after having done websites as a hobby/freelance for ~12 years.

[Catbooster]

You could say that the internet was a much different place 10 years ago (as was the FCS landscape), but "fairly new" is not really something you could attach to it.
10 years ago I was just starting my current job as a web developer after having done websites as a hobby/freelance for ~12 years.
I concede the point. xnodx

But when something didn't exist when you went to college, it's easy to think of it as fairly new. xcoffeex

[Reign of Terrier]

Social media was almost irrelevant 10 years ago too

[walliver]

Here's another long term measure that illustrates my point.

Compare UCF, App State, and NDSU
(https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F03hfz15,%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F08pxkj)
10 years ago, the three schools were pretty much indistinguishable from each other but in the last 2 years UCF has skyrocketed. Meanwhile, Boise State's publicity peaked in 2010 and has been relatively higher (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0c41_v,%2Fm%2F0gpmf1)than NDSU since. Point is, FCS national championships don't do much by way of publicity. Sustained success against the big boys over a number of years (in the business they call it brand recognition) does that.

(The more I look at different permutations of trends and see how they seemingly track with one another, the more I think it has more to do with the specific media outlets than one team, but that's a debate for somewhere else.)

One of those schools is in Boone, NC and another in Fargo, ND.
It is not surprising that a team located in Orlando, FL that plays in a large stadium is doing much better as far as publicity.

All three, however, are somewhat trapped at present:
UCF should be in the P5, but is not particularly attractive to the SEC or ACC, and has to hope for major reorganization or for the Big 12 to bite the bullet and expand to Florida. For now they are the G5 NDSU.
App State is sitting in the Sun Belt. I have no doubt they would love to replace UCF in the AAC, but they aren't doing that from the Belt. IF JMU ever makes it to C-USA, App might follow, but that isn't a step up in football by any means.
NDSU has few realistic opportunities to go FBS, the long discussions on AGS not withstanding. Their best chance is most of the MVFC going FBS - this would likely require creation of a new all-sport conference or the NCAA allowing football-only conferences in FBS. I suspect a FBS MVFC would immediately be competetive with the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA. I also don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.