Patsy Ratings: PL Recruiting Classes

[carney2]

This is the first – and, given the hours and hours that it took to assemble it – possibly the last Patsy Ratings for Patriot League football recruits. If you think that I’ve jumped the gun, you’re right. I am posting now – with only 3 of the 7 schools reported – because (1) I’m ready, and (2) people are interested NOW, not when Biddle and Kelly and Landis and Gilmore return from vacation. I will update if and when these dawdlers get around to releasing their recruiting lists.

At the outset let me say that this is one big heap of crapola. If anyone thinks that he or she can rate 18 and 19 year old high school football players or declare one group of these kids superior to another is delusional. This, however, is an attempt to do just that, so what does it say about me? It is, to the best of my knowledge, the first such effort of its type. Many of you will take issue with the methodology or will rail against the outcome because you “know” that [fill in the name of your favorite school] had its best recruiting year ever. I invite you to post your criticism. Even more, I invite you to give us something better. It’s easy to say “you’re wrong.” It is much more difficult to find a better way and actually create the results.

METHODOLGY

Quality points: I wouldn’t know a “quality” high school recruit if I tripped over him while he was wearing a name tag. I therefore needed to consult the “experts.” I ran every recruit thru Rivals.com and Scout.com, who maintain data bases for football recruits. Neither is perfect and I found some “holes” in both data bases.

Rivals has much the larger data base and theoretically lists every senior high school football player who has created some D-I recruiting buzz. Beyond that, they separate the better recruits and rate them with a star system. Five stars is the highest rating and denotes recruits you will eventually find on the rosters at Southern California and Florida. Patriot League schools will get a few players with one-star ratings and an occasional two star guy – seldom more. Scouts simply uses the 5-star system and does not list recruits who generated interest but who do not merit a star.

I awarded 2 Patsy Points for each recruit included in the Rivals.com data base who did not receive any stars. Two additional points are awarded for each star in his rating. In other words, a one-star recruit earns 4 points (2 for being in the data base + 2 more for the star) for his chosen school. If there was a difference between the Rivals and Scout ratings, I used the higher rating to assign the Patsy Points. A “Rated recruit” is any recruit who was included in either data base.

(NOTE – There are other recruiting systems. I was either unable to find access and/or too cheap to pay for them. As I said at the outset, this isn’t a perfect rating system.)

Class Size points: Football is a physical game; a game of attrition. In addition, not all of these recruits are going to be up to the challenge of playing D-I football in a demanding academic environment. Some will get homesick, or will dislike their roommate or position coach, or their girlfriend back home will call to say that she’s pregnant. Males in this age group are among the most unpredictable and irrational creatures on the planet. In any event, quantity is, in many respects, almost as important as quality in the recruiting process.

It is arbitrary I admit, but I determined that a bare subsistence recruiting class should number 18. If you multiply this number by 4 years you get 72, which gives you three deep plus some leftovers for kickers, kick returners, “athletes,” etc. Most Patriot League preseason rosters number in the 90+ range, so this should not be a problem. I awarded 2 Patsy Points for reaching a class size of 18 and awarded an additional point for every two recruits above that number. For example, a recruiting class of 21 would yield 4 Patsy Points for that school – 2 for reaching 18 + 1 more for numbers 19 and 20 + 1 more for number 21. There is, therefore, no difference between 21 and 22 – the point is awarded either way.

Distribution points: You need to keep the pipeline filled at each position. I therefore awarded 1 Patsy Point for each of the following positions where the team had at least one recruit: QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, LB, DB, K/P. That is a maximum of 9 points. You can argue that Team X doesn’t need a kicker because last year’s freshman was great, or that Team Y already has 4 quarterbacks and doesn’t need one this year. I made no allowances for any of this. In fact, you have found one of the key deficiencies of this system because nowhere is the fact that a team may or may not have met its needs taken into consideration.

Speed points: This one was really difficult, but since “speed kills," it needed to be considered. Times for the 40 are not tattooed on a recruit’s forehead and are rarely included in the college’s press release. Rivals or Scout will frequently (but not always) include this information for players in their data base. Other than that it is a matter of getting lucky with online resources. Freely admitting that I may have missed a “burner” or two, I awarded the Patsy Points for speed as follows: 4.8 – 4.701 = 1 point; 4.7 – 4.601 = 2 points; 4.6 – 4.501 = 3 points; etc.

Trigger points: Quarterback is the most important position on any football team. I have therefore determined that demonstrably superior quarterback recruits should earn additional Patsy Points for their schools. I have again used the Rivals and Scout data bases to determine “superior,” and if you view this as merely a way to award additional Quality points, so be it. I have awarded one point for each QB recruit that is in the Rivals data base without any stars, and one additional point for each star assigned by either rating system. Again, I use the higher rating of the two systems in each case. Fordham recruit, Sean Mara, for instance, is 2-star rated by Rivals, but only receives one star from Scout. I used the Rivals 2-star rating to award 3 Patsy points to the Rams.

Jumbo points: Size matters. Frank Tavani’s Lafayette teams have set the gold standard here. Andy Coen at Lehigh saw the results for the first time last year and has vowed that it won’t happen again. 35% of this year’s Lehigh recruiting class are dozers for down in the trenches – and Andy may very well have set the gold standard for defensive linemen with this group. Since Patriot League teams are not stealing skill position recruits from Notre Dame or Michigan – the kind of guys who could make a difference despite what is going on in the lines – my assumption is that, for the time being, line play – and the size of the people making that play – is critical. I therefore assigned 1 Patsy point for each OL recruit of 275 pounds or more and 1 point for each DL recruit of 250 pounds or more.

Players to Watch: As much as I’d like to list everyone’s entire recruiting class, I set a limit and picked out a few recruits who caught my eye. I tried to focus on guys whose names could very well be called this fall, but threw in one or two with longer term appeal. You may not agree, or counter with “How about Smith – or Jones – or Whatsit?!!” On the other hand, you could create your own ratings. Good luck with that.

Mea culpa: I tried to be as fair and dispassionate in creating and researching these ratings as I could. I confess however, to knowing far more about Lafayette and Lehigh recruiting than about the other five schools. I can’t be sure how I did. You be the judge.

PATSY RATINGS FOR THE CLASS OF 2011 (so far):

1. LAFAYETTE (80 Patsy Points)

Quality = 44 (14 Rated recruits)
Class Size = 8 (30 recruits)
Distribution = 8
Speed = 14
Trigger = 5
Jumbo = 1

Players to Watch: Nick BANDONI, LB; Patrick CAREY/Marc QUILLING/Peter RAYMOND, QBs; Tom Kondash, K/P; Mark LAYTON, WR; Nathan PADILA, WR

Summary: This group could wear out that monster scoreboard at Fisher Stadium.

2. LEHIGH (68 Patsy Points)

Quality = 34 (11 Rated recruits)
Class Size = 8 (29 recruits)
Distribution = 9
Speed = 8
Trigger = 2
Jumbo = 7

Players to Watch: Charles BRALLIER, DL, J.B. CLARK, QB; Trace CISNEROS, QB; Dan JONES, DL; Tom RANDAZZA, K; Phil WINNETT, DL

Summary: Wendy’s once asked “Where’s the beef?” Answer: it’s in Bethlehem, PA

3. FORDHAM (42 Patsy Points)

Quality = 20 (5 Rated recruits)
Class Size = 6 (25 recruits)
Distribution = 7
Speed = 4
Trigger = 5
Jumbo = 0

Players to Watch: Clay BUSCH, QB; Andre Delaire, LB; Nick MAGIERA, LB; Sean MARA, QB; Martin XAVIER, RB

Summary: This group should help the Rams move back into contention.

[cosmo here]

xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx

:beerchug: :beerchug:

Carney, based on my new ratings system, I give you three cheers and two beer chugs for your passion, effort, and time spent breaking down Patriot League recruiting. You'll outdo RichH yet . .

[carney2]

You'll outdo RichH yet . .

RichH (now RichH2) is my hero, my mentor, the guru of all PL recruiting postors. The sequel is never better than the original.

Confession: I merely took RichH's info and added a heavy dose of anal retention.

[youwouldno]

Using weight as a measure is problematic because some guys can add a lot of bulk whereas others are near the max already. For instance, Furman a few years ago brought in a raw 6'7, 260 lb tackle, who now starts at LT and measures 6'7, 320. Compare that to a guard we bring in who is 6'2, 300, but isn't going to add weight (though obviously you hope a college conditioning program will make for better athleticism). Scouts talk about "frame" size in that context.

It also seems odd to punish a team for not having a need at a particular position, but then, with such limited information I guess it's going to be totally arbitrary regardless.

[RichH2]

IOk Carney cannot disagree with your methodology too much but your Quality points are way off on LU. There are 10 listed recruits. I do not have my list but off the top Cisneros*,Randazza*,Rackley*,Brallier**,Clark* Clerge,,Doukouslis,linder,Shaw,McNamara and Walters from last yr,he prepped. I probably missed one or 2 but I am old and lazy.

Carney the task you have undertaken is something I've thought about and even started a couple of times but just too much work. Your results are good but perhaps Andy, myself and a few other s might help by feeding you the info on each of our schools for you to plug into your formula and we'll all help on Bucknell, and HC.

Now that you've done the really hard work don't give up if we work together this is something the PL fans can fight over for years.

[RichH2]

Thank you for the kudos Carney but Andy is the man and now you . I'm like the old gunfighter time for me to retire and let you young fellows takeover.

[Fordham]

Good stuff and a heckuva lot of work there carney. I'm a fan of any PL thread on here, so hopefully this one will get some legs as well.

2 comments and 1 question:

*our marquee recruit at this point is Nicholas Mageira, who is a 2 Star on rivals and is listed as having a written offer from Eastern Michigan and was reportedly asked to be a preferred walk-on at Northwestern. He's at the top of our "Players to Watch" group and he'll likely play at SS. Here is what I posted about him on our Fordham board:

1. Nicholas Magiera; 6' 204lbs; LB; Barrington (IL); A 2 star LB on both Scout & Rivals. He had an offer from Eastern Michigan and interest listed from Air Force, Northwestern and almost every directional Illinois school you could imagine (Northern, Southern & Eastern). Listed as Illinois All-State 'Special Mention' here: Tribune HS Football All-State Following is his "Coach's Comments" section on Scout (I don't subscribe so I'm assuming this is all public info: Coach's Comments "Just a freak of nature. Explosive hitter, great hits. Played fullback as a sophomore and moved to the defensive backfield as a junior. Broke Jamil Walker's (Wisconsin) 200-meter dash record at the state track meet.". Given his size and speed and our defensive backfield needs, think he'll be a SS for us? Regardless, sounds like a great pick up.

2. Quasand Lewis from CA is supposed to be our second kid most likely to make an impact this year. He had a written offer from Colorado St.


Quasand Lewis ; 5'6 191lbs; All purpose back; Rancho Cucamonga (CA); 4.72/40; 3.6 GPA; SPARQ: 80.48. Had offers from Colorado St., Cal Poly & CS Sacramento.
Question - I threw this one up in on Lehigh board to you but where on rivals are you getting your numbers from? Here is the post I put up on their board to you (and others):


In terms of listed commits, here's all I see on Rivals currently (2/20): Bucknell (Shantz Medley, Paul Brazinski); Colgate (Charles Babb, Nick Cvetic, Andrew Woizesko); Fordham (Kevin Conachan; Andre Delaire, Quasand Lewis; Nick Magiera [2 Stars]; Sean Mara [2 Stars]); Georgetown (Mychal Harrison); Holy Cross (Anthony DiMichele); Lafayette (Nick Bandoni); Lehigh (Charles Brallier [2 Stars]; Billy Dokouslis; RJ McNamara).

Interesting to note that Lewis (Colorado St.) & Magiera (Eastern Michigan) both had FBS offers listed, as opposed to just interest. Also, interesting to note that Lewis was not on our announced list but the word is that he is indeed coming (hope so).

Back to topic - not sure why my numbers vary with carney's or anyone else's. Again, I'm simply looking at those who have committed to each PL school v. just interest. If I broaden the search ("Advanced search", "Choose School", etc.), I get 10 kids for Fordham, including some who have chosen other schools as well as a few who still have "list" up there. I see 15 for Lafayette (that includes some Penn commits who showed interest in Laf as well as some others) and 30 kids for Lehigh, but again, many of them have committed elsewhere.

Is there a search method I'm missing here? What accounts for the disparity in results?

[RichH2]

Neither rivals nor scout make it easy .Rivals is not just one database. I E ,u can go to Ohiopreps for nice writeup on Sean linder, if you go to national database he is not listed. W/o subscription and even with one sometimes you have to go into the different db s for various preps and colleges and states. Both systems update fairly regularly. Don"t worry about your numbers varying. Andy on LC board ,the best and most thorough on rivals and scout ,Carney ,PaRam ,myself all come up with a little bit different results. In order really to clarify the lists we all should post where we got the info ie, rivals ,scout and at which site

[carney2]

This is a rookie first at bat, so I am taking all comments/suggestions seriously. Will not be able to comment for a while - possibly not until tomorrow.

[Pard94]

Carney, I am shocked. First of all this type of list assumes that there is quality within any recruting class...I assumed you were of the mind that there is no such thing as these guys haven't played a down of college ball. Your rating system is built upon a foundation of optimism. Didn't know you had it in you.

Great job on this. I suspect you will get skewered before it is all said and done as this kind of thing will produce a loser and I suspect that won't go over well. But screw 'em! I am even willing to overlook the fact that you didn't mention me as one of your hero posters. Afterall, wasn't it I who introduced you to this site?:smiley_wi :thumbsup:

[RichH2]

Pard94
You know he did such a great job on his system that I forgot to jump on his amazing lack of acerbic sarcasm and dare I say almost optimistic outlook.

[Andy]

Neither rivals nor scout make it easy .Rivals is not just one database. I E ,u can go to Ohiopreps for nice writeup on Sean linder, if you go to national database he is not listed. W/o subscription and even with one sometimes you have to go into the different db s for various preps and colleges and states. Both systems update fairly regularly. Don"t worry about your numbers varying. Andy on LC board ,the best and most thorough on rivals and scout ,Carney ,PaRam ,myself all come up with a little bit different results. In order really to clarify the lists we all should post where we got the info ie, rivals ,scout and at which site

Awesome effort, Carney! Well, when you've got a strong horse, you might as well ride him, so here is what I've found for Carney to consider while he's still saddled up:

LAFAYETTE--

RIVALS listed: Bandoni, Carey, Eck, Ellis, Hall, Kondash, Layton (2*), Nagy, Quilling, Raymond, Rodriquez, Schmidlein (12)

SCOUT listed additions: Bennett, Butler

Total of 14

LEHIGH--

RIVALS listed: Brallier (2*), Clark, Dokouskis, Jones, Linder, Mcnamara, Randazza, Walter (8)

SCOUT listed additions: Cisneros, Rackley, Shaw

Total of 11.

FORDHAM--

RIVALS listed: Delaire, Magiera (2* 5.1) , Mara (2* 5.2), Martin

Scout additions: not done yet

To answer PA RAM: search each name from the college's press release of commits in the prospect data base. Do not trust the Rivals commit list or schools of interest list as they are not followed up on by Rivals for 1-AA recruits.

Another recruiting site I like is: (click on Football Recruit Tracker to be brought to searchable database)

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncf/recruiting/tracker/prospects?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncf %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fprospects

which will rate many kids that the others don't. For instance, they rate Lehigh's Randazza as the #7 kicker in the country. Maybe for you to consider next year when you're looking for more work!

Notes: Lehigh's Brallier the only kid I've seen RATED by all three services.
Rivals 2*, Scout 2*, ESPN Grade 67.

Others RATED by ESPN: Bandoni (LC) #26 OLB nationally, Grade 77; Randazza (LU) #7 K nationally, Grade 78; Walter (LU) #88 WR nationally, Grade 74; Zurn (LU) #134 WR nationally, Grade 71.

MY totally worthless pick for Recruit of the Year: Charles Babb, QB, Colgate, video on Rivals. Offers from Youngstown State and some other which I can't recall. Dynamic looking player to these old eyes.

That's it. Thanks, Carney for all the work and for giving us more opportunity for recruit discussion. I like the master Rich H's suggestion: since Carney has his system established, we feed him info next year. Can't wait!

[carney2]

I posted this about half an hour ago, but apparently Ralph's cyber gremlins ate the thing. One more time:

Andy/RichH/Fordham

I have used your information to update the ratings. Check the initial post on this thread for the new numbers. I confess to uneasiness here. I have not verified any of the changes and have a feeling of losing control - something that is a no-no in my professional career. I have, however, accepted your multi-partisan revisions and move forward blindly and with confidence.

Andy

My drive by at Rivals also gave me Hickman and Thomas for Fordham. I eagerly await any updates you may have for the Rams after you have punched all of the buttons at Scout.

Fordham

I used the 25 man recruit list that was released by the University. It did not include Quasand Lewis.

As noted elsewhere in this thread, you should not search Rivals by school. They do not seem to keep the information current for CS (formerly I-AA) schools. I choose Database and then Prospect Search from the drop down list. From there I punch in each recruit, one by one.

RichH

"Acerbic sarcasm?!!" It's a good thing that I only have a Lafingyet education and don't know what that means.

As for passing the torch on to the younger folks, be aware that my 40th College Hill reunion is a dusty shadow in my rear view mirror.

[TheValleyRaider]

Recruiting classes are always hard to rank, but any system that has some level of gradeable criteria (as opposed to pulling it out of you-know-where), is a nice tool to see.

On another note, I'm surprised to not see Colgate have a list anywhere, given they had an article and video of the players last year. Not sure it really means much, just curious.

[ngineer]

Jeeezzzzzuuuusssss! Do you guys have jobs?? I'm impressed with all the work and research. I agree that in the long run it don't really mean sheeat, but tis certainly grist for the mill will we chill out until spring ball. Kudos.:thumbsup:

[TheValleyRaider]

Jeeezzzzzuuuusssss! Do you guys have jobs??

NOPE! :smiley_wi

[LeopardFan04]

Thanks for all the hard work on this guys...

[carney2]

Jeeezzzzzuuuusssss! Do you guys have jobs??

Jobs? Yes.

Are we 24/7 fanatics about these jobs? Not so much.

Look out your window: short days, long nights, rotten weather.

Are you watching American Idol? I'm not.

Frankly, I was getting a little bored with threads about how many games GSU is going to win, whether the Omaha School of Advanced Toilet Cleaning is going to join the Gateway, what are the chances for ASU at the Big House (can you say Bug on a Windshield?), and how little in the way of compensation the head coach of the Griz really needs to survive out there on the tundra.

Hey, it's football! It's CS (formerly I-AA) football! It's Patsy League football!

[letsgopards04]

carney2 way to get the juices flowing even more. I can't wait until this season and its only Feb.

[Andy]

My drive by at Rivals also gave me Hickman and Thomas for Fordham. I eagerly await any updates you may have for the Rams after you have punched all of the buttons at Scout.I.

Carney, sorry to create more work, however, I believe the Michael Hickman and Chris Thomas you saw listed by Rivals are not identical to the Fordham recruits--different states.

I'll continue on Scout with Fordham kids, thanks again for the effort.

[carney2]

Carney, sorry to create more work, however, I believe the Michael Hickman and Chris Thomas you saw listed by Rivals are not identical to the Fordham recruits--different states.

I'll continue on Scout with Fordham kids, thanks again for the effort.

Right you are. It helps to not only find things, but to also pay attention after you've "found" them. Corrections have been made. Sorry, Fordham; sorry, any other Ram followers out there; but losing these two guys not only cost you Quality points, but the two imposters were also incredibly fast, so Patsy Points for speed were also nullified.

While on the subject of speed, I should point out that this is the one portion of the ratings that will be tweeked over the next few weeks as additional information is discovered.

This downward adjustment for the Rams unfortunately rekindles my initial thoughts on PL recruiting for this year which is that, although the League as a whole seems to be doing pretty well, Lafayette and Lehigh seem to be breaking away into their own little world. I am eagerly - almost breathlessly - waiting to see what the other 4 bring to the table. Where have you gone, Dickie B.?!!

[Tribe4SF]

Being listed on Rivals has no relationship to quality. Many of the unranked players are on there because they got themselves listed. Rivals is dependent on information primarily provided by the player and/or his coach. Real scouting reviews of players are few and far between. Scouts, Inc., which provides reviews for ESPN Insider does the best job. The percentage of players rated at our level by the services is so small as to render it meaningless for comparative purposes. Also, most of the information about unrated players on Rivals is old. The list of schools for a recruit is usually the ones the player said he was interested in, and reports of offers have to come from the player. 40 times are frequently fantasy, and you needn't have gone below 4.5 with points because those are almost always fantasy.

[RichH2]

Well Carney looks like were both about the same. Alright, I'll stop making excuses Andy's stuff is right on the $. I will troll for info on GU, hc AND bUCKNELL. I don't watch Idol either but my kids tell me i have to get a life. Your project certainly fits the bill for now. Thanks again for a great idea and all the work

[Andy]

Being listed on Rivals has no relationship to quality. Many of the unranked players are on there because they got themselves listed. Rivals is dependent on information primarily provided by the player and/or his coach. Real scouting reviews of players are few and far between. Scouts, Inc., which provides reviews for ESPN Insider does the best job. The percentage of players rated at our level by the services is so small as to render it meaningless for comparative purposes. Also, most of the information about unrated players on Rivals is old. The list of schools for a recruit is usually the ones the player said he was interested in, and reports of offers have to come from the player. 40 times are frequently fantasy, and you needn't have gone below 4.5 with points because those are almost always fantasy.

Yeah, we're all aware. The info we get on our level kids is limited, so the something provided by these services is better than nothing. We (Lafayette) used to have one or two recruits listed by these databases, now we have about 15; we're just enjoying the new relative wealth of information on our kids. We go into this ranking stuff with our eyes open, but I'm enjoying carney's system--it's a fun diversion and, besides, it beats him telling us how the Ivies are gonna cream us again this year.

Tribe, I was vaguely familiar with the Scout-Insiders connection, do you know why their ratings differ?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If memory serves, a couple years ago Georgetown had a "great" recruiting class since they had the most recruits on Rivals (including a couple 2-star guys). Still, carney2, power to you for trying to devise a system to rate the recruiting classes using a system. :thumbsup:

I still like to evaluate the classes, but I like to look at them almost entirely subjectively. I look for one or two players with possible impact (which I'm almost always wrong about), needs, and other things. I don't necessarily like looking at number of QBs since some years you may not need a QB in your system. Take Lafayette in 2003, for example, when Maurer was a frosh, Davis was a soph, and Glavic was a senior. Why pursue QBs? However, IMO you always need more speed and more linemen. :twocents:

Anyway, please carry on! :hurray:

[Pard4Life]

I'm less interested in rating prospects than about reading their accomplishments and seeing how they preform in the preseason camp.

But good effort carney.

[Andy]

If memory serves, a couple years ago Georgetown had a "great" recruiting class since they had the most recruits on Rivals (including a couple 2-star guys). Still, carney2, power to you for trying to devise a system to rate the recruiting classes using a system. :thumbsup:

Interesting point, LFN. I might take a look at how the few 2* PL recruits have fared. I believe the Rivals database is archived to '02. It should be pretty easy to at least check the correlation of rating to future all-league status. I'll take a shot. For now, I still feel good about having "rated" kids on our list, at least they've been vetted by somebody instead of just listed.

Georgetown, it seems to me, HAS had more than their share of the leagues 2* types of late, just not enough supporting cast, I guess.

[Andy]

Fordham

SCOUT additions (duplicates from Rivals not included)--Abdul-Quddus, Anderson, Busch. all get Scout's base 1* rating

Notes: duplicates--Magiera 2* (listed, not rated by ESPN), Mara gets Scout's base 1*, Martin 1*

[Tribe4SF]

Yeah, we're all aware. The info we get on our level kids is limited, so the something provided by these services is better than nothing. We (Lafayette) used to have one or two recruits listed by these databases, now we have about 15; we're just enjoying the new relative wealth of information on our kids. We go into this ranking stuff with our eyes open, but I'm enjoying carney's system--it's a fun diversion and, besides, it beats him telling us how the Ivies are gonna cream us again this year.

Tribe, I was vaguely familiar with the Scout-Insiders connection, do you know why their ratings differ?

Scouts, Inc. is different from Scouts.com. Scouts, Inc. is a professional player evaluation company that works with the NFL and colleges to evaluate NFL prospects and current players. They began evaluating high school talent two years ago for ESPN. Tom Lugenbill oversees a team of evaluators who study film of high school players, attend high school games, and submit their evaluations exclusively to ESPN. Lugenbill is a former coach, as are most of their staff. They base their ratings solely on observation of players on the field. You can see the difference in their evaluations, which grade critical skills and tendencies.

[Andy]

Scouts, Inc. is different from Scouts.com. Scouts, Inc. is a professional player evaluation company that works with the NFL and colleges to evaluate NFL prospects and current players. They began evaluating high school talent two years ago for ESPN. Tom Lugenbill oversees a team of evaluators who study film of high school players, attend high school games, and submit their evaluations exclusively to ESPN. Lugenbill is a former coach, as are most of their staff. They base their ratings solely on observation of players on the field. You can see the difference in their evaluations, which grade critical skills and tendencies.

Good info, thanks! I do enjoy the write-ups on ESPN and I'm feeling even better now about their Bandoni rating.

[LBPop]

While we all know that recruiting and rating recruits can be a crapshoot, it sure can be fun. Thanks for all the hard work.

I wish that Georgetown would release their list, but this is Washington, DC, so I expect Scooter Libby to leak the list. Be sure to check your New York Times.xlolx :rolleyes:

[Ken_Z]

I will troll for info on GU, hc AND bUCKNELL.

for Bucknell info you can start your trolling here:

http://boards.basketball-u.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=4&Number=1019460&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

[RichH2]

Ken

Thanks I never remember to go to that Bball place (LOL) U kicked our a** again. If I find some new stuff I'll post it over there also

[carney2]

Thanks, Andy and RichH. Keep the stuff coming. Just a heads up however that I will not post a Patsy Rating for any school until I have the official press release.

Oh yeah, anything you have on times for the 40 would be very helpful. That includes info for the already posted Lafayette, Lehigh and Fordham. I checked some of the "signings" for the silent 4 and must admit that verification is going to be important. The Bucknell faithful, for instance, are claiming times for the 40 for their recruits that lead me to suspect that they have signed the entire final heat of the 100 meter dash from the last Olympics.

[RichH2]

Ok youngster (lol), I have some stuff on BU in addition to KenZ 's info, HC not so much ,I think Gilmore is recruiting in Europe GU also not much more than we had last week but I'll look tonite

[Fordham]

This is great stuff. I'm about to give a few of my 'takes' here but please don't take them as knocks. They either can be things that I put into my own personal ratings (the ones that exist in my head) or else possible fodder for round 2 of this next year, which carney has committed to doing whether or not her realizes it yet.

Giving a two star kid just one more point than a kid who gets mentioned on rivals or scout doesn't seem right to me. Any kid who has a parent or coach that can create and post a video now can pretty much get a mention and, to me, it's just not that special. The two things that really stand out for me or whether or not a kid has 2 Stars or else has received written offers from FBS schools (or really good FCS ones). Those are the things I've looked for in terms of kids I really track and it's also what has me very high on our group. Anyone want to do a side bar report on kids that have more than one star AND a FBS written offer just to see what it would look like?

The other thing I think would be interesting is for each of us to give what we think were our team's top 2 weak spots last year and compare that with what the coaches brought in this year. For us it's clearly defensive backfield and skill position speed.

If you guys don't mind, let me know what kids fall into each category from your schools:

Bucknell


Colgate


Fordham

*Nick Mageira: 2 Stars, written offer from Eastern Michigan

*Sean Mara: 2 Stars

*Qua'sand Lewis: written offer from Colorado St.

Georgetown

*Mychal Harrison: 2 Stars

Holy Cross


Lafayette

*Mark Layton - 2 Stars

Lehigh

*Charles Brallier: 2 Stars

[Go...gate]

This is where, once again, Colgate13 is desperately missed. He was closer to the current Red Raider program than any of us.

[carney2]

The good folks here at AGS apparently have some sort of a "time out" mechanism that limits the time period in which the author can edit one of his posts. The original post with the rules of the road and the "latest" ratings has been "shut down." Here, therefore, are the latest overall ratings with complements to Andy and RichH for supplying updated info:

1. LAFAYETTE 80 Points

2. LEHIGH 68 Points

3. FORDHAM 52 Points

I believe that 5 of the 6 rating categories have been pretty well locked in for these 3 schools. There will be, as I stated in an earlier post, some updates in the Speed category as information becomes available.

[carney2]

1 carney has committed to doing whether or not her realizes it yet.

2 Giving a two star kid just one more point than a kid who gets mentioned on rivals or scout doesn't seem right to me.

3 The other thing I think would be interesting is for each of us to give what we think were our team's top 2 weak spots last year and compare that with what the coaches brought in this year.If you guys don't mind, let me know what kids fall into each category from your schools:

Bucknell


Colgate


Fordham

*Nick Mageira: 2 Stars, written offer from Eastern Michigan

*Sean Mara: 2 Stars

<I'm a few hours away from being able to confirm whether or not Lewis will be with us. If so, he had a Colorado St. offer and will be added.>


Georgetown


Holy Cross


Lafayette


Lehigh

*Charles Brallier: 2 Stars

1 Right now I am having fun with this. By next year, after I have given this some thought, I may prefer death and/or dismemberment to going thru it again. The spread sheets are, however, up and running so I wouldn't be starting from scratch.

2 Each star receives 2 additional points - actually 3 for a QB. That means that a 2-star recruit receives 4 more points than a kid who is just mentioned and, including the Trigger points, a 2-star QB receives 6 more.

3 Lafayette: Mark Layton, WR, 2 stars from Rivals. I will bring it up before any of my Pard brethren, but the Leopards' supposed top recruit in years, Nathan Padia, WR from Lawrence, Kansas, is a "late bloomer" who was a BS (formerly I-A) recruit that slipped thru the cracks but received neither "Rating" nor stars from any of the services being used here. The Pards therefore received no Patsy Points at all for their "best recruit," and it shows just how iffy this whole thing is.

As for changing the system to account for "needs," you would, in my opinion, be moving from attempting to quantify the subjective, which is what I have done, to attempting to quantify random and varied opinions. I gave "needs" some thought when creating the Patsy Ratings, but determined that I only have (limited) knowledge of the situation at Lafayete and Lehigh, with some (even more) limited opinions about Colgate. The other 4 are a mystery to me. I would therefore advise against including any rating category that addresses "needs."

[ngineer]

While we all know that recruiting and rating recruits can be a crapshoot, it sure can be fun. Thanks for all the hard work.

I wish that Georgetown would release their list, but this is Washington, DC, so I expect Scooter Libby to leak the list. Be sure to check your New York Times.xlolx :rolleyes:

Getting that infor in DC should be a piece of (yellow) cake....;) :D

[Hoya Fan]

After having fun watching this thread, thought I'd take my maiden.

A little Georgetown update. As LBPop has correctly said, the Hoya's are notoriously slow in releasing recruit information as is indicated by their mention of 21 recruits to date. Here is what I was able to find on Rivals.

Mychal Harrison was a 2*. Beside some nice film to watch on him at Rival's, there was an Atlanta paper article which was quite impressive. http://www.ajc.com/highschool/content/sports/highschool/stories/2007/02/22/bctxspot0222.html Rivals said he had offers from Ball State, Kent State and Miami (OH).

The Ford twins (Arius and Anthony) started and starred at Carroll HS in Southlake TX. Carroll was the #1 rated team in the country last year. They are on Rivals with no stars. However, an article states that they had offers from Rice and "several other top schools". Can not confirm that.

The last listed GTown recruit on Rivals (thus far) is Justin Thomas from Norcross GA. No stars were shown for him either, but the Rival's article states that he had offers from Air Force, Colgate and West Point. Apparently Justin had two brothers play at Army before him.

As is the case with all of the PL brethern, many of a team's eventual top players never make the Rival's list. Will try to supply more Hoya's info as it is made available.

[carney2]

After having fun watching this thread, thought I'd take my maiden.

A little Georgetown update. As LBPop has correctly said, the Hoya's are notoriously slow in releasing recruit information as is indicated by their mention of 21 recruits to date. Here is what I was able to find on Rivals.

Mychal Harrison was a 2*. Beside some nice film to watch on him at Rival's, there was an Atlanta paper article which was quite impressive. http://www.ajc.com/highschool/content/sports/highschool/stories/2007/02/22/bctxspot0222.html Rivals said he had offers from Ball State, Kent State and Miami (OH).

The Ford twins (Arius and Anthony) started and starred at Carroll HS in Southlake TX. Carroll was the #1 rated team in the country last year. They are on Rivals with no stars. However, an article states that they had offers from Rice and "several other top schools". Can not confirm that.

The last listed GTown recruit on Rivals (thus far) is Justin Thomas from Norcross GA. No stars were shown for him either, but the Rival's article states that he had offers from Air Force, Colgate and West Point. Apparently Justin had two brothers play at Army before him.

As is the case with all of the PL brethern, many of a team's eventual top players never make the Rival's list. Will try to supply more Hoya's info as it is made available.

Welcome and thank you. I'm not sure that I need yet another Hoya (besides DFW and LB) smacking me upside the head, but you do bear encouraging news. Your mention of "Rated" and even starred recruits for Georgetown lends credence to LB's faith in Kelly. Here's hoping.

[Pard94]

Getting that infor in DC should be a piece of (yellow) cake....;) :D


mmmm....yellow cake.

[Fordham]

1 Right now I am having fun with this. By next year, after I have given this some thought, I may prefer death and/or dismemberment to going thru it again. The spread sheets are, however, up and running so I wouldn't be starting from scratch.

2 Each star receives 2 additional points - actually 3 for a QB. That means that a 2-star recruit receives 4 more points than a kid who is just mentioned and, including the Trigger points, a 2-star QB receives 6 more.

3 Lafayette: Mark Layton, WR, 2 stars from Rivals. I will bring it up before any of my Pard brethren, but the Leopards' supposed top recruit in years, Nathan Padia, WR from Lawrence, Kansas, is a "late bloomer" who was a BS (formerly I-A) recruit that slipped thru the cracks but received neither "Rating" nor stars from any of the services being used here. The Pards therefore received no Patsy Points at all for their "best recruit," and it shows just how iffy this whole thing is.

As for changing the system to account for "needs," you would, in my opinion, be moving from attempting to quantify the subjective, which is what I have done, to attempting to quantify random and varied opinions. I gave "needs" some thought when creating the Patsy Ratings, but determined that I only have (limited) knowledge of the situation at Lafayete and Lehigh, with some (even more) limited opinions about Colgate. The other 4 are a mystery to me. I would therefore advise against including any rating category that addresses "needs."

Thanks for the clarification on the stars.

The 'needs' comment to me is more of a sidebar of your rankings. I'd like to know what each school's most avid fans feel their immediate needs are and be able to compare that to their recruits. Like all of this stuff, it doesn't really tell us anything since coach may not agree or there could be a current kid who gets switched, returns from injury or just steps up his game as well but it still might be fun to track, for instance, that Fordham clearly had a horrendous secondary last year and we clearly recruited for that spot. It could be somewhat telling about the quality of the recruiting class if none of them make significant contributions for us back there this year. Again, just curious.

I spoke with Coach Masella and he confirmed that Lewis from CA IS coming. He'll be on whatever the final list is that we announce. Paperwork issues kept him from being included in the original announcement but they've been cleared up.

I'll also update my other sidebar list of BS offers and/or multiple stars from the recruiting sites.

[Fordham]

yee-haw - another Hoya fan. Welcome!

[carney2]

Thanks for the clarification on the stars.

The 'needs' comment to me is more of a sidebar of your rankings. I'd like to know what each school's most avid fans feel their immediate needs are and be able to compare that to their recruits. Like all of this stuff, it doesn't really tell us anything since coach may not agree or there could be a current kid who gets switched, returns from injury or just steps up his game as well but it still might be fun to track, for instance, that Fordham clearly had a horrendous secondary last year and we clearly recruited for that spot. It could be somewhat telling about the quality of the recruiting class if none of them make significant contributions for us back there this year. Again, just curious.

I spoke with Coach Masella and he confirmed that Lewis from CA IS coming. He'll be on whatever the final list is that we announce. Paperwork issues kept him from being included in the original announcement but they've been cleared up.

I'll also update my other sidebar list of BS offers and/or multiple stars from the recruiting sites.

Interesting points. They bring out the uncredentialed lawyer in me as I mull the following:

1. If we want to include "needs" in future years, do I* run a December or January thread requesting the PL nut jobs (I include myself here) to state what they see as their team's needs after the 2007 season? I would then have the opinions that you allude to.

*Not to be interpreted as a rush to volunteer for future endeavors of this type.

2. At what point - if ever - do we add names to the original recruiting list? What sort of verification would we need? I guess that I never gave this any thought, but I sort of assumed that I would deal with the original press release and be done with it. This does, however, give a bit of an advantage to the 4 procrastinators who have given themselves time to place these late additions on their "original" list.

By the way, for those of you who are keeping track, the current ratings are:

1. LAFAYETTE 80
2. LEHIGH 70
3. FORDHAM 60

[Ken_Z]

time to get busy, Bucknell announces recruits:

http://bucknellbison.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/030107aaa.html

predictions:

1) we will rate low on this ranking scale
2) at least one poster will ding us for no Florida kids
3) LehighTUowl will proclaim this class ensures that Lehigh will not lose to Bucknell for at least the next 28 years
4) this class will help the Bison ascendency continue

[colorless raider]

Reading the bios it looks like the goal was speed and it appears there is plenty of it. What is missing is size.:bow:

[ngineer]

Reading the bios it looks like the goal was speed and it appears there is plenty of it. What is missing is size.:bow:

Then there isn't much 'wide'....;) :D

[Ken_Z]

Reading the bios it looks like the goal was speed and it appears there is plenty of it. What is missing is size.:bow:

the coaches were overheard to say that they felt that speed was the key to maximizing the Patsy rating.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

the coaches were overheard to say that they felt that speed was the key to maximizing the Patsy rating.

Not for LFN's incoming class ratings, though... :nono: Ah, the trouble with multiple folks reviewing your class...

[RichH2]

Certainly not a bad class but not enuf to move BU up much. Speed is real nice but as Lehigh learned over the last 2 years w/o size it is difficult to beat teams with avg speed but vg size.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

time to get busy, Bucknell announces recruits:

http://bucknellbison.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/030107aaa.html

predictions:

1) we will rate low on this ranking scale
2) at least one poster will ding us for no Florida kids
3) LehighTUowl will proclaim this class ensures that Lehigh will not lose to Bucknell for at least the next 28 years
4) this class will help the Bison ascendency continue

You guys seem to getting a good pipeline from my HS alma mater, Abington Heights. Unfortunately these kids don't play very good teams and their stats are often inflated. I remember Dave Hewlett for example, he went to Lehigh. He dominated up here but he couldn't pay his way on to the field at Lehigh before he got into some off the field trouble. Bucknell seems to recruit too heavily in the Scranton area where there really isn't that many good players.

[Fordham]

that's too bad towel. the coal regions always produced some tough kids who always used to excel once they got to the next level.

[carney2]

Just returned from out of town to find out that Landis is the first of the Patsy League Rip Van Coaches to wake from his long winter's nap. Will get after the ratings ASAP.

First question to all of the posters out there is where do the "speed" comments come from? I see that many of these guys are tracksters, and I guess that we can conclude... Still, need verification for 40 times. Oh yeah, "BisonFan from Harrisburg says that RB recruit Sammy Swiftfoot does a 4.19 40" aint gonna do it.

[carney2]

1. LAFAYETTE 80

2. LEHIGH 70

3. FORDHAM 60

4. BUCKNELL 54
Quality Pts. = 20 (8 Rated Recruits)
Class Size Pts. = 8 (30 Recruits)
Distribution Pts. = 8
Speed Pts. = 16
Trigger Pts. = 1
Jumbo Pts. = 1

Players to Watch: Greg HYMAN, QB; Rod JACKSON, DB; Josh LOVETT, WR; Shantz MEDLEY, FB

Summary: Total rating boosted by the most Speed points awarded to any team so far (although this category is under constant review). Particularly on offense, this rating system may not be terribly indicative of what Landis is trying to accomplish. A very difficult group to evaluate, but a bit smallish.

[carney2]

Recruiting is losing its buzz as we wait - and wait - and wait - for Biddle, Gilmore and Kelly to perform their contractual responsibilities. In an attempt to stir the pot, I am offering opinions on each recruiting class which I call The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. Most of it you have probably heard, but along the way I will throw out some bones of contention. They will be offered up on no particular schedule but in the order in which they released their recruiting classes. Here's the first installment. Enjoy - or not.

LAFAYETTE

THE GOOD: The Pards addressed their greatest needs, and did it spectacularly:
1. Three quality QBs have been recruited to join the battle for the position vacated by 3-year starter Brad Maurer.
2. In an attempt to shore up the WR spot that was hit hard by graduation, Tavani has signed probably the best group of wideouts to ever arrive on College Hill in the same class.
3. Six DBs were signed to help plug last year’s glaring defensive weakness.
4. More solid LBs were added to carry on what is fast becoming a Lafayette tradition.
5. With 4-year place kicker Rick Ziska graduated, and punting an absolute adventure for the past few years, two kickers of some repute have been signed, one of them doubling as a punter.

THE BAD: It’s hard to believe that a Tavani recruiting class might be downgraded for lack of size, but consider:
1. Of the 3 OL recruits, only one seems a certainty to grow into one of those 300 pound behemoths that Lafayette has come to rely on. There is no need for new jumbos in 2007, but the flow of the pipeline has apparently been slowed. It can’t happen two years in a row.
2. The DL recruits average 235. Whether by design or necessity, Frank has always seemed to rely on quick, but average to below average sized DLs who get supported by great LBs. This group of DLs seems truly undersized, however, and when you compare them to Lehigh’s average DL recruit at almost 270, you think that maybe Frank missed the memo on this one.
3. Lafayette returns a talented stable of RBs, but after 6 years where the feature back weighed 225 or 220, the current group of returnees tops out at 195, which could present some problems for Tavani’s ball control offense. The recruiting class includes one RB who tips the scales at 230, but he is not one of the ballyhooed members of this group.

THE UGLY: Not much in the way of ugly here. If he can find a QB in his grab bag of 6 talented candidates, and if he can keep from going brain dead – which he, unfortunately, did a few times last year – Tavani ought to be able to stay in contention for a few more years with this group.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Recruiting is losing its buzz as we wait - and wait - and wait - for Biddle, Gilmore and Kelly to perform their contractual responsibilities...

Of course, I wil be offering my recruiting judgements as well, once we get some idea about the recruits... So, by mid-May sound good? :nod: xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

Recruiting is losing its buzz as we wait - and wait - and wait - for Biddle, Gilmore and Kelly to perform their contractual responsibilities.

"Contractual responsibilities?" :eyebrow:

[carney2]

Of course, I wil be offering my recruiting judgements as well, once we get some idea about the recruits... So, by mid-May sound good? :nod: xlolx

Sounds way too early for these three blind mice. Seriously, what possibly can be the hold up at this late date? The first thing that comes to mind is that they didn't do very well, but indications are, for at least two of the three, that this is not true.

What are we going to know about these recruits in, let's say a month, that we don't know now?

[carney2]

"Contractual responsibilities?" :eyebrow:

I wouldn't pretend to know how it is worded, but you have to believe that communications, alumni/fan relations, and public relations are in there somewhere.

[LBPop]

I'm not sure that I need yet another Hoya (besides DFW and LB) smacking me upside the head, but you do bear encouraging news. Your mention of "Rated" and even starred recruits for Georgetown lends credence to LB's faith in Kelly. Here's hoping.

Hey there, we don't mean to be smacking anybody.;) Actually based on recent performances, it might be the only chance we Hoya football fans get to "smack" anyone. :D

The truth is (for what it's worth) that I expect significant improvement on the field this season or my "faith" may be tested. And that's going to be tough with this year's schedule. With three games against the Ivies (including Penn & Yale) plus games against improving programs like Marist and Stony Brook, those Ws will be tough to get. I will certainly be supporting these guys all season, but not blindly.

[RichH2]

Nice write up on LC class. Hopefully, rest of PL will announce soon. Absent any other circumstances ,like a new coach ,delays now are usually on the recruit side not on coaches. Preferred walk on kids hoping for a spot. LU has been in that postion a bunch of times with PSU. Non ED IVy kid awaiting admission. Usually Ivy recruits already know there liklihood of admission if not ED. Other kids hoping for a schollie from some school. The end of Feb is Div II scholarship time ie picking over the bones for the most part. Admission problems are usually resolved one way or the other by now.

[carney2]

1. Lafayette 77

2. Lehigh 70

3. Fordham 60

4. COLGATE 57
Quality Points = 26 (8 Rated Recruits)
Class Size Points = 8 (29 Recruits)
Distribution Points = 9
Speed Points = 10
Trigger Points = 2
Jumbo Points = 2

Players to Watch: Charles BABB, QB; Michael BARRY, DB; Nebojsa CVETIC, TE; Bradley KEELE, LB

Summary: A nice group, but the Raiders seem to be slipping from the "Big Three."

5. Bucknell 54

[Pard94]

1. Lafayette 77

2. Lehigh 70

3. Fordham 60

4. COLGATE 57
Quality Points = 26 (8 Rated Recruits)
Class Size Points = 8 (29 Recruits)
Distribution Points = 9
Speed Points = 10
Trigger Points = 2
Jumbo Points = 2

Players to Watch: Charles BABB, QB; Michael BARRY, DB; Nebojsa CVETIC, TE; Bradley KEELE, LB

Summary: A nice group, but the Raiders seem to be slipping from the "Big Three."

5. Bucknell 54


Oh Jesus, Carney...that last little throw in line about the Raiders are slipping is going to get you killed. It's a good thing 13 isn't around to hear you.

[Andy]

Ah, the vagaries of the spread option offense--as the rest of the PL looks to emulate Heffner's Hogs, the Bison stay small:

'06 O-Line--6-2 257
'06 class---6-3 259
'07 class---6-0 252

New OC/OL coach comes in from Rhode Island where (as recruiting coord.) in their similar offense the OL averaged a likeminded 6-2.5 265.

[Andy]

Oh Jesus, Carney...that last little throw in line about the Raiders are slipping is going to get you killed. It's a good thing 13 isn't around to hear you.

:nod: Stay light on your feet ready to duck, carney. Just a few short months ago our Gate friends were predicting a national championship in '08.

[carney2]

Oh Jesus, Carney...that last little throw in line about the Raiders are slipping is going to get you killed. It's a good thing 13 isn't around to hear you.

After catching it from the wife, the kids, employers, fellow motorists, Lafayette faculty members (including the one who queried "Is he still in school?"), DFW, LB, Fordham, some (many) of my fellow Pards on the Lafayette board, and you, my "glass half empty" friend, I won't feel a thing. I've been abused by the best. I do miss 13, however. He would undoubtedly have already pointed out my countless grievous errors.

Seriously, however (as if the preceding wasn't), the 2006 on-the-field performance followed by this recruiting class poses more questions than answers when you consider the immediate future of Red Raider football. The mantra of "In Biddle We Trust" coupled with the fact that all of this recruitment rating is crapola gives hope, but does not eliminate doubt.

[Pard94]

After catching it from the wife, the kids, employers, fellow motorists, Lafayette faculty members (including the one who queried "Is he still in school?"), DFW, LB, Fordham, some (many) of my fellow Pards on the Lafayette board, and you, my "glass half empty" friend, I won't feel a thing. I've been abused by the best. I do miss 13, however. He would undoubtedly have already pointed out my countless grievous errors.

Seriously, however (as if the preceding wasn't), the 2006 on-the-field performance followed by this recruiting class poses more questions than answers when you consider the immediate future of Red Raider football. The mantra of "In Biddle We Trust" coupled with the fact that all of this recruitment rating is crapola gives hope, but does not eliminate doubt.

I am sitting here with my hands on my ears, crouching in anticipation of the pending verbal thrashing coming your way...who will be the first Gater to lay into you? I can hear it now, "Lafayette beats us for the first time in a decade and Carney has us slipping into the basement". God Bless you Carney...you say what you feel and you are prepared to face the music. Good luck.

[Andy]

As threatened, here are the results of my attempt to determine the effectiveness of Rivals one and two star ratings as predictors of success in Patriot League:

Please help me out with info/corrections on players where needed. The '02 Gate players come from a depth chart, couldn't find a recruit list. Pooped out before getting to BU '02 and HC. Couldn't find FU archives.

2002

Lehigh

Andrew Nelson 1*----All-PL 1st
Mark Borda 2*----All-PL 2nd as a jr., injured senior
Gerran Walker 1*---All-PL 1st

Lafayette

Eric Fizur 1*------concussions, never started
Kwame Lovell 2*------a 6'7" 270lb bust
Blake McCoy 2*------a 6'4" 300lb no show, I believe
Bob Szuhany 1*------spot starter, lost sr. year to injury

Georgetown

Jason Abrams 1*--------don't know if he started, NOT All-PL
Mo Banks 2*--------All-PL 2nd
Jim Elliott OL 2*--------don't know if he started, NOT All-PL
Sheldon Epps 1*-------- "
Brian Golper 2*--------starter, I believe
Ononibaku 1*--------All-PL 1st
Keith Schroeder 2*--------don't know if he started, NOT All-PL

Colgate

Jeremy Wurst 2*--------All-PL 2nd
Josh Wurst 2*--------starter

2003

Lehigh

Cubbage 1*---------bust
Hewko 1*---------non-starter
Cal Lamont 1*---------starter?? NOT All-PL
Chris Lamont 1*---------starter
Morelli 1*---------starter, I believe
Bilal Morris 2*---------left team
Nick Oakley 1*---------may have started before leaving team
Probst 2*---------career backup
Rakus 2*---------All-PL 1st

Lafayette

Aaron Shaw 1*---------HS injury, left team
Justin Stovall 1*---------starter

Georgetown

couldn't find a list

Bucknell

Jon Altemus DT 2*---------listed in BU release, Rivals shows as Brown
commit

Colgate

Jeff Brown TE 1*--------starter??
Nate Johnson S 1*--------starter??

So:

One Star:

Of the ones I have info on, Rivals does well with 7 of 9 reaching at least starter level.

17 1*----3 All-PL 1st, 4 starters, 3 hurt or quit, 5 unknown, 2 busts.

Two Stars:

Of the ones I have info on, 6 of 8 reach at least starter level.

13 2*---1 All-PL 1st, 3 All-PL 2nd, 2 starters, 2 busts, 2 hurt, quit or no-show, 3 unknown.

Pending starting info on the unknowns, Rivals "stars" seem to be accurate predictors of success with two stars not making any appreciable difference over one.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I thought Pete Morelli was an All-PL (either 1st or 2nd) his junior year as a TE? He definitely was a starter as a junior and senior.

Chris LaMont started at LB for Lehigh in the 142nd, so he's another starter.

Your analysis is interesting, but it's also interesting who made All-PL and who weren't mentioned in Rivals (Sedale Threatt, Geoff Bean, Jonathan Hurt, Brad Maurer, Mo Bennett...). Some of the names there are good, solid players - but no Offensive/Defensive POY or anything. I think that speaks volumes.

[Go...gate]

Problem is that you really never know. These are still kids. You hope and pray they will perform they way they are capable on and off the field, but just like any other college freshmen, they may get homesick, have difficulty with the schoolwork, get somebody in trouble, fall in with the wrong element, or lose their taste for the intensity of Division I football. As we all learned ourselves, it's a tough time in any youngster's life.

[Fordham]

I'm just glad to see that Lafayette clearly has things locked up for the foreseeable future so that we can all just focus on the fight for 2nd.



:homer: :D ;)

[Pard94]

I'm just glad to see that Lafayette clearly has things locked up for the foreseeable future so that we can all just focus on the fight for 2nd.



:homer: :D ;)


That has become status quo in the PL in general. All is good in the world.:smiley_wi

[carney2]

Am I reading this correctly? The last 10 posts or so indicate that some people - folks whose opinions I have come to trust and respect - are taking this thread seriously. It's time for a reality check, so

Bend over. Bend waaay over. Reach behind you and grab your ears. Now, ever so violently, extract your heads from your collective a**es.

This is crap. No one "knows." No one can even guess.

This is conjecture, an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable.

This is about bragging rights.

This is about something to talk about while we CS (formerly I-AA), Patriot League, [fill in the name of your favorite school] junkies kill time and, attempt to keep the juices flowing while we wait for September 1st. This is an attempt to have some fun between snow storms.

To find out that educated, knowledgeable, rational people actually took the time and trouble to go back and research "starred" recruits from prior years to see how they turned out is beyond belief. The only thing more incomprehensible is the idiot who took a weekend out of his life to create this Patsy Rating nonsense and now spends 2+ hours doing the leg work every time a new group is announced.

I have a bottle of great single barrel bourbon on the premises. I plan to put a huge dent in it within the next few hours. Don't call; don't write; don't help me up when I fall down.

[Fordham]

Am I reading this correctly? The last 10 posts or so indicate that some people - folks whose opinions I have come to trust and respect - are taking this thread seriously. It's time for a reality check, so



ppppfffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttt ttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!

he who puts all of that research and all that content into a thread like this does NOT get to rip on others for taking all of this too seriously.

we're all on PL crack - especially the thread starter.

[carney2]

ppppfffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttttt ttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!

he who puts all of that research and all that content into a thread like this does NOT get to rip on others for taking all of this too seriously.

we're all on PL crack - especially the thread starter.

I have a second bottle of that single barrel bourbon. I'm gonna need it.

Oh yeah, Mr. Smarty Pants, if Lafayette has things "clearly locked up for the foreseeable future," how come Tavani has called for "open tryouts" for the entire student body - including women - on March 20th? (True! A select few may receive invites to spring practice.) You think you've seen good linebackers - Taylor, Bennett - wait until some of these Lafayette women put on the pads.

[Andy]

Am I reading this correctly? The last 10 posts or so indicate that some people - folks whose opinions I have come to trust and respect - are taking this thread seriously. It's time for a reality check, so

Bend over. Bend waaay over. Reach behind you and grab your ears. Now, ever so violently, extract your heads from your collective a**es.

This is crap. No one "knows." No one can even guess.

This is conjecture, an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable.

This is about bragging rights.

This is about something to talk about while we CS (formerly I-AA), Patriot League, [fill in the name of your favorite school junkies kill time and, attempt to keep the juices flowing while we wait for September 1st. This is an attempt to have some fun between snow storms.

To find out that educated, knowledgeable, rational people actually took the time and trouble to go back and research "starred" recruits from prior years to see how they turned out is beyond belief. The only thing more incomprehensible is the idiot who took a weekend out of his life to create this Patsy Rating nonsense and now spends 2+ hours doing the leg work every time a new group is announced.

I have a bottle of great single barrel bourbon on the premises. I plan to put a huge dent in it within the next few hours. Don't call; don't write; don't help me up when I fall down.

Carney, trust me, please, my look at Rivals was motivated by a comment from LFN and by my own irrational exuberance for the recruiting game, not in attempt to verify the Patsie ratings which I realize are for "entertainment purposes only". Hey, I send those Rivals people 10 bucks a few months a year, I needed to know if their ratings meant something at our level.

Now, I DO enjoy the Patsie Ratings and I hope you'll continue to tailor the scoring system to maintain our first place position, we Pard fans need SOMETHING to feel good about during the basketball season.

[Pard94]

I have a second bottle of that single barrel bourbon. I'm gonna need it.

Oh yeah, Mr. Smarty Pants, if Lafayette has things "clearly locked up for the foreseeable future," how come Tavani has called for "open tryouts" for the entire student body - including women - on March 20th? (True! A select few may receive invites to spring practice.) You think you've seen good linebackers - Taylor, Bennett - wait until some of these Lafayette women put on the pads.

Carney, as the 1st ever head coach of the undefeated champion Delta Gamma Mean Machine Women's Flag Football team, I can tell you that some of those Lafayette women can bring some serious hurt. I'll never forget watching my middle linebacker (center for the women's BB team) lay flat the opposing ball carrier for a three yard loss (flag football mind you), reach down to the motionless running back, rip her flag off and drop it on her. As she walked away she said under her breath, "whose your daddy?". I swear I get chills just recalling it.

Seriously, if you can't see that the open combine is a PR stunt to bring the team closer to the student body (thereby putting more asses in seats), you really are lost to the Dark Side of life. Hey if they manage to find some freak who wants to bust the wedge on the kickoff team, all the better.

[Fordham]

I have a second bottle of that single barrel bourbon. I'm gonna need it.

Oh yeah, Mr. Smarty Pants, if Lafayette has things "clearly locked up for the foreseeable future," how come Tavani has called for "open tryouts" for the entire student body - including women - on March 20th? (True! A select few may receive invites to spring practice.) You think you've seen good linebackers - Taylor, Bennett - wait until some of these Lafayette women put on the pads.

Tavani's got a bit of Don King in him, huh?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I have a second bottle of that single barrel bourbon. I'm gonna need it.

Oh yeah, Mr. Smarty Pants, if Lafayette has things "clearly locked up for the foreseeable future," how come Tavani has called for "open tryouts" for the entire student body - including women - on March 20th? (True! A select few may receive invites to spring practice.) You think you've seen good linebackers - Taylor, Bennett - wait until some of these Lafayette women put on the pads.

I've always felt that Lafayette women could play linebacker anywhere in the country. :nod:

[Pard94]

I've always felt that Lafayette women could play linebacker anywhere in the country. :nod:

No doubt...our manly women are more manly than most Lehigh men BUT our hotties have your Mountain Gnomes beat by a mile.:nod:

[carney2]

Seriously, if you can't see that the open combine is a PR stunt to bring the team closer to the student body (thereby putting more asses in seats), you really are lost to the Dark Side of life. Hey if they manage to find some freak who wants to bust the wedge on the kickoff team, all the better.

Sure, what else could it be? Of course, as I posted on the Lafayette board (actually, one of the Lafayette boards these days), perhaps Frank saw Invincible, the movie about Vince Papale's "walk on" with the Philadelphia Eagles back in the 70s, and has visons of a made for TV movie with Harrison Ford playing the part of tough, but fair and lovable, Coach Tavani.

[RichH2]

Well Carney you are almost there. Spring practice starts for most of PL in 2 weeks. I would hope that HC and GU will announce before then.

The RICH get RICHER.

Not only did LC have the highest rated class this year but now to kick us all while we are down they bring in the Co-eds. Guess we'll all have to settle for 2nd place.

[carney2]

Well Carney you are almost there. Spring practice starts for most of PL in 2 weeks. I would hope that HC and GU will announce before then.

Not even close to being "almost there." There are a variety of places that this could go after we have all 7 in the bank. Take my word for it, you will love it IF I find the time and energy to pull it off.

This could go well into the summer with LFN vs. Pard94 vs. DFW vs. Fordham vs. Ken_Z vs. goGate vs. ... in a no holds barred. good old fashioned street fight. I, of course, will be standing off to the side, emptying my snifter of single barrel bourbon and laughing at the lot of you.

[Go...gate]

Tavani's got a bit of Don King in him, huh?

Only in America....:)

[Go...gate]

Sure, what else could it be? Of course, as I posted on the Lafayette board (actually, one of the Lafayette boards these days), perhaps Frank saw Invincible, the movie about Vince Papale's "walk on" with the Philadelphia Eagles back in the 70s, and has visons of a made for TV movie with Harrison Ford playing the part of tough, but fair and lovable, Coach Tavani.

Harrison Ford?!?!? :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek:

[carney2]

Harrison Ford?!?!? :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek:

Why not? Vermeil got Greg Kinnear as his stand in, so an aging Harrison Ford just might fit the bill for Tavani. A little makeup to give Ford that mustachioed Italian terrorist look and he might be able to pull it off. I'm smelling an Academy Award here.

[Pard94]

Not even close to being "almost there." There are a variety of places that this could go after we have all 7 in the bank. Take my word for it, you will love it IF I find the time and energy to pull it off.

This could go well into the summer with LFN vs. Pard94 vs. DFW vs. Fordham vs. Ken_Z vs. goGate vs. ... in a no holds barred. good old fashioned street fight. I, of course, will be standing off to the side, emptying my snifter of single barrel bourbon and laughing at the lot of you.


Come on Carney...I would full expect you to kick whichever, NON LAFAYETTE person goes down first. :)

[RichH2]

Should be fun this year. At least the carnage s/b entertaining until we get to August.

[carney2]

FORDHAM

THE GOOD: A program that has gone 5-17 for the last two years probably has general need rather than specific needs or holes to fill. Still, you mix this group of recruits in with last year’s freshmen, who showed some promise while getting a lot of early on the job training, and Fordham begins to look like a team with some up side potential. Major pluses in recruiting include:
1. Two “Rated” QBs were signed, either or both of whom could challenge incumbent John Skelton (only a sophomore to be) for playing time. This will be very interesting.
2. Three RBs were recruited, one of whom is a small but “Rated” back with serious speed. He could become the Mr. Outside to returnee Larry Dortch’s Mr. Inside.
3. Masella got some real help at linebacker in this group. Two are “Rated,” with one getting 2 stars from both Rivals and Scout. Suddenly the hole left by Patriot League Defensive Player of the Year, Marcus Taylor’s graduation doesn’t seem quite so big.
4. 14 of the 25 recruits were for the defense where the Rams need help after giving up 26 points and 352 yards per game in 2006. The 4 DB signees are particularly welcome.

THE BAD:
1. Lafayette, and now Lehigh, are showing the way here: if you can’t put some beef up front, you are going to have problems in this league. Fordham’s OL recruits average only about 250, while their DL candidates come in under 240. Neither of these numbers should prove a major benefit.
2. Six of the seven “Rated” recruits have been rated by Scout, the more demanding of the two services that I used. That’s good. That is very good. Still, there are only 7 “Rated” recruits. This leads me to the conclusion that, although there is true quality in this group, there may not be quality depth.
3. Eight of the recruits played linebacker in high school. The flip side of the linebackers comment above is that Masella has 10 linebackers returning from 2006 and now he’s added 8 more to this group. Unless he’s planning to play some version of a 1-9-1, you have to ask what most of these guys are going to contribute. There could be some “waste" or needless duplication in this group.
4. With 1/3 of the recruiting class listed as linebackers, suddenly the class size and distribution among positions looks a little weak. In fact, linebackers and defensive backs make up about half of this class. Returning to my opening line, a program that went 5-17 over the past two years has general need - and requires help at more than two or three positions.

THE UGLY: I’m not sure why, but I like this group. Perhaps it’s because there are a few individuals with the potential to become stars in this League and I look forward to watching them for 4 years. Perhaps it’s because Masella and staff took their search for talent into places that don’t see many Patriot League recruiters. Most likely however, it’s because I think that once some of the better members of this class move in beside last year’s underclassmen, Fordham will no longer be an “easy out.” Unfortunately for Fordham fans, I don’t believe that this group will put their hands on a trophy without some additional help. The Class of 2012 will be critical if the Rams hope to get to the top.

[colorless raider]

FORDHAM

THE GOOD: A program that has gone 5-17 for the last two years probably has general need rather than specific needs or holes to fill. Still, you mix this group of recruits in with last year’s freshmen, who showed some promise while getting a lot of early on the job training, and Fordham begins to look like a team with some up side potential. Major pluses in recruiting include:
1. Two “Rated” QBs were signed, either or both of whom could challenge incumbent John Skelton (only a sophomore to be) for playing time. This will be very interesting.
2. Three RBs were recruited, one of whom is a small but “Rated” back with serious speed. He could become the Mr. Outside to returnee Larry Dortch’s Mr. Inside.
3. Masella got some real help at linebacker in this group. Two are “Rated,” with one getting 2 stars from both Rivals and Scout. Suddenly the hole left by Patriot League Defensive Player of the Year, Marcus Taylor’s graduation doesn’t seem quite so big.
4. 14 of the 25 recruits were for the defense where the Rams need help after giving up 26 points and 352 yards per game in 2006. The 4 DB signees are particularly welcome.

THE BAD:
1. Lafayette, and now Lehigh, are showing the way here: if you can’t put some beef up front, you are going to have problems in this league. Fordham’s OL recruits average only about 250, while their DL candidates come in under 240. Neither of these numbers should prove a major benefit.
2. Six of the seven “Rated” recruits have been rated by Scout, the more demanding of the two services that I used. That’s good. That is very good. Still, there are only 7 “Rated” recruits. This leads me to the conclusion that, although there is true quality in this group, there may not be quality depth.
3. Eight of the recruits played linebacker in high school. The flip side of the linebackers comment above is that Masella has 10 linebackers returning from 2006 and now he’s added 8 more to this group. Unless he’s planning to play some version of a 1-9-1, you have to ask what most of these guys are going to contribute. There could be some “waste" or needless duplication in this group.
4. With 1/3 of the recruiting class listed as linebackers, suddenly the class size and distribution among positions looks a little weak. In fact, linebackers and defensive backs make up about half of this class. Returning to my opening line, a program that went 5-17 over the past two years has general need - and requires help at more than two or three positions.

THE UGLY: I’m not sure why, but I like this group. Perhaps it’s because there are a few individuals with the potential to become stars in this League and I look forward to watching them for 4 years. Perhaps it’s because Masella and staff took their search for talent into places that don’t see many Patriot League recruiters. Most likely however, it’s because I think that once some of the better members of this class move in beside last year’s underclassmen, Fordham will no longer be an “easy out.” Unfortunately for Fordham fans, I don’t believe that this group will put their hands on a trophy without some additional help. The Class of 2012 will be critical if the Rams hope to get to the top.
I totally agree. There is real quality in this group and I feel with one more decent recruiting year Fordham will be in the mix. While Gate got some studs, they lack some of that beef you refered to. Last years class for Gate had some so we may be all right as a squad.

[Fordham]

That's a good and fairly assessed evaluation carney.

FWIW, after speaking with the coaches I'll throw out there that many of those LB's are kids that will be playing DB, which is where we really need the help. They also recruited almost exclusively for speed and athleticism and they're pleased with this group. We have a few classes worth of 300lbers on the Oline so I'm not as concerned with that missing from this group but it's a valid comment that it's a numbers game with these guys (particularly on the oline) and you need to keep putting kids in the system every year that are going to start for you when they're juniors and seniors.

The other thing that will be huge for us is if the rumored Big 10 transfer is as good as he was rumored to be when he suits up for us on the Dline. There was a thread from our board on it with some comments in it from guys who practiced with him last year saying that he's simply outstanding and an animal. I haven't heard anything since so we'll have to see and make sure that he not only suits up for us but that he's as good as he was when practicing last year ... but will report back once Spring ball hits. I mention this for no other reason than it could fall under the "additional help" category that you mention in your next to last line.

Either way, it's good to feel that we're at least headed in the right direction up in the Bronx.

Again, well done.

[Fordham]

Skelton Commits to Fordham (http://www.elpasotimes.com/search/ci_5332406)

Burges senior will follow sibling's path
Lenny Jurado / El Paso Times
Article Launched: 03/02/2007 12:00:00 AM MST

Burges High School senior Stephen Skelton will reunite with older brother John next fall at Fordham University in New York City.
Better yet, the siblings will be scholarship athletes on the same football team.

Stephen Skelton made sure of that by giving his intent in writing Wednesday to play for the Rams.

"(My decision) was made easier with my brother getting the starting quarterback job toward the end of the season," Stephen Skelton said. "That made me want to get that Skelton to Skelton connection again."

Stephen Skelton, a junior when John was a senior at Burges, moves on to an NCAA Division 1-AA school that competes in the Patriot League.

"I think it's a good choice," Burges head coach Lloyd Smith said. "At the college level, I think it's a rarity for two brothers to play on the same team. It will be a unique experience for him. I think it's a wise choice, considering the academic status of the university, and also because the head coach is committed to turning the program around."

Smith also sees much potential in Skelton, a 6-foot-5, 200-pound wide receiver and defensive back with the ability to play various positions.
"I think what it boils down to is Stephen has the stature and size, something colleges obviously are looking at," Smith said. "I think he's a well-rounded athlete and an excellent student. He also has a strong work ethic."

An offensive threat while at Burges, Stephen Skelton caught 37 passes for 468 yards and seven touchdowns. As a defensive back, he picked off three passes and recorded 18 tackles.

Considered to have a tremendous upside, Stephen Skelton looks to improve just as his brother did in the college ranks.

But for now he is savoring the moment, having reached a milestone he never thought was possible just a few years ago.

"My freshman and sophomore years, I wasn't the greatest player," he said. "My size really caught up my junior year, and when my brother signed with Fordham, that really made me get excited to work hard and achieve the same thing."

Aside from playing alongside his brother, Stephen Skelton also looks forward to experiencing the Big Apple.

"Being in New York City, it's an opportunity for my education, which is studying business, then after that there are so many opportunities. I'm nervous, but at the same time I'm really excited to go up there. And having my brother up there, I won't be alone."

Lenny Jurado may be reached at [email protected]; 546-6167.

[LBPop]

Skelton Commits to Fordham (http://www.elpasotimes.com/search/ci_5332406)

Burges senior will follow sibling's path
Lenny Jurado / El Paso Times
Article Launched: 03/02/2007 12:00:00 AM MST

Burges High School senior Stephen Skelton will reunite with older brother John next fall at Fordham University in New York City.


I love these stories. Georgetown has had several brother combinations and there are two sets of brothers currently on the squad. Of course, the most well known among these has been the long line of Paulus brothers. The most recent siblings from this amazing family are playing basketball and will be playing football in North Carolina (for two different schools). While we would love to have them in DC, we certainly wish them the very best...as we do the Skeltons.

[ngineer]

I love these stories. Georgetown has had several brother combinations and there are two sets of brothers currently on the squad. Of course, the most well known among these has been the long line of Paulus brothers. The most recent siblings from this amazing family are playing basketball and will be playing football in North Carolina (for two different schools). While we would love to have them in DC, we certainly wish them the very best...as we do the Skeltons.

Lehigh's had a couple brother combos over the years. Currently the Gasaway twinswill likely be starting this year at LB and DB (Rashaun and Laquan). This past year we had ANOTHER set of twins: Calvin and Chris LaMont , also a DB and a LB! In recent years we had the Snyder brothers, Brett and Josh.

[Pard94]

I got my brother to transfer from Villanova so we played together from 92-94 for Lafayette. My first two years I played DT and he played OT so we often squared off against each other in practice. One year in camp we got into a bit of a physical altercation, much to the ammusement of the coaching staff. Them my little brother followed in our footsteps and played Center from 98-2001. Lafayette footbal is and remains a family affair.xthumbsupx

[Fordham]

Good stuff fellas.

For what it's worth, this year's recruiting class includes two pairs of twins in the Haruna brothers from TX and the Onyeabor brothers from TX. The addition of Skelton not only gives us three sets of brothers ... but 3 from the state of TX. Odd, huh?

[carney2]

Sorry, gang, no Patsy Points for twins or even siblings. Maybe next year we will work it into the system.

[Fordham]

jeez, carney, NOW that we finally have brothers on the same team you rig the system to keep us from getting our points. what's next, negative points for recruits for any kid from TX? ;)

Seriously, though, the one thing that I do like about it is that 6 of our TX recruits will be making the long trek to the Bronx with their brother. That's gotta help hedge the concern about the increased likelihood of losing some of these guys due to coming from such a far away place.

[carney2]

jeez, carney, NOW that we finally have brothers on the same team you rig the system to keep us from getting our points. what's next, negative points for recruits for any kid from TX? ;)

Right now negative points are assigned only to recruits from Guam and Luxembourg. Texas is on the undecided/to-be-resolved list however, so if you have Masella's ear tell him to start looking elsewhere - just in case. I hear that there's lots of PL quality talent in Northern Manitoba - or is it Manchuria? I'd love to see 6 of the 7 PL teams stock up with those guys.

[RichH2]

Those must be where Cross and Gtown are getting the rest of their recruits

[LBPop]

Those must be where Cross and Gtown are getting the rest of their recruits
Nope, the Hoyas are recruiting in Kazakhstan. Very Nice. xnodx

[carney2]

I'm taking a nap. Wake me if Gilmore or Kelly ever become conscious.

[PSUVikings]

This is the first – and, given the hours and hours that it took to assemble it – possibly the last Patsy Ratings for Patriot League football recruits. If you think that I’ve jumped the , you’re right. I am posting now – with only 3 of the 7 schools reported – because (1) I’m ready, and (2) people are interested NOW, not when Biddle and Kelly and Landis and Gilmore return from vacation. I will update if and when these dawdlers get around to releasing their recruiting lists.

At the outset let me say that this is one big heap of crapola. If anyone thinks that he or she can rate 18 and 19 year old high school football players or declare one group of these kids superior to another is delusional. This, however, is an attempt to do just that, so what does it say about me? It is, to the best of my knowledge, the first such effort of its type. Many of you will take issue with the methodology or will rail against the outcome because you “know” that [fill in the name of your favorite school] had its best recruiting year ever. I invite you to post your criticism. Even more, I invite you to give us something better. It’s easy to say “you’re wrong.” It is much more difficult to find a better way and actually create the results.

METHODOLGY

Quality points: I wouldn’t know a “quality” high school recruit if I tripped over him while he was wearing a name tag. I therefore needed to consult the “experts.” I ran every recruit thru Rivals.com and Scout.com, who maintain data bases for football recruits. Neither is perfect and I found some “holes” in both data bases.

Rivals has much the larger data base and theoretically lists every senior high school football player who has created some D-I recruiting buzz. Beyond that, they separate the better recruits and rate them with a star system. Five stars is the highest rating and denotes recruits you will eventually find on the rosters at Southern California and Florida. Patriot League schools will get a few players with one-star ratings and an occasional two star guy – seldom more. Scouts simply uses the 5-star system and does not list recruits who generated interest but who do not merit a star.

I awarded 2 Patsy Points for each recruit included in the Rivals.com data base who did not receive any stars. Two additional points are awarded for each star in his rating. In other words, a one-star recruit earns 4 points (2 for being in the data base + 2 more for the star) for his chosen school. If there was a difference between the Rivals and Scout ratings, I used the higher rating to assign the Patsy Points. A “Rated recruit” is any recruit who was included in either data base.

(NOTE – There are other recruiting systems. I was either unable to find access and/or too cheap to pay for them. As I said at the outset, this isn’t a perfect rating system.)

Class Size points: Football is a physical game; a game of attrition. In addition, not all of these recruits are going to be up to the challenge of playing D-I football in a demanding academic environment. Some will get homesick, or will dislike their roommate or position coach, or their friend back home will call to say that she’s pregnant. Males in this age group are among the most unpredictable and irrational creatures on the planet. In any event, quantity is, in many respects, almost as important as quality in the recruiting process.

It is arbitrary I admit, but I determined that a bare subsistence recruiting class should number 18. If you multiply this number by 4 years you get 72, which gives you three deep plus some leftovers for kickers, kick returners, “athletes,” etc. Most Patriot League preseason rosters number in the 90+ range, so this should not be a problem. I awarded 2 Patsy Points for reaching a class size of 18 and awarded an additional point for every two recruits above that number. For example, a recruiting class of 21 would yield 4 Patsy Points for that school – 2 for reaching 18 + 1 more for numbers 19 and 20 + 1 more for number 21. There is, therefore, no difference between 21 and 22 – the point is awarded either way.

Distribution points: You need to keep the pipeline filled at each position. I therefore awarded 1 Patsy Point for each of the following positions where the team had at least one recruit: QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, LB, DB, K/P. That is a maximum of 9 points. You can argue that Team X doesn’t need a kicker because last year’s freshman was great, or that Team Y already has 4 quarterbacks and doesn’t need one this year. I made no allowances for any of this. In fact, you have found one of the key deficiencies of this system because nowhere is the fact that a team may or may not have met its needs taken into consideration.

Speed points: This one was really difficult, but since “speed kills," it needed to be considered. Times for the 40 are not ed on a recruit’s forehead and are rarely included in the college’s press release. Rivals or Scout will frequently (but not always) include this information for players in their data base. Other than that it is a matter of getting lucky with online resources. Freely admitting that I may have missed a “burner” or two, I awarded the Patsy Points for speed as follows: 4.8 – 4.701 = 1 point; 4.7 – 4.601 = 2 points; 4.6 – 4.501 = 3 points; etc.

Trigger points: Quarterback is the most important position on any football team. I have therefore determined that strably superior quarterback recruits should earn additional Patsy Points for their schools. I have again used the Rivals and Scout data bases to determine “superior,” and if you view this as merely a way to award additional Quality points, so be it. I have awarded one point for each QB recruit that is in the Rivals data base without any stars, and one additional point for each star assigned by either rating system. Again, I use the higher rating of the two systems in each case. Fordham recruit, Sean Mara, for instance, is 2-sta by Rivals, but only receives one star from Scout. I used the Rivals 2-star rating to award 3 Patsy points to the Rams.

Jumbo points: Size matters. Frank Tavani’s Lafayette teams have set the gold standard here. Andy Coen at Lehigh saw the results for the first time last year and has vowed that it won’t happen again. 35% of this year’s Lehigh recruiting class are dozers for down in the trenches – and Andy may very well have set the gold standard for defensive linemen with this group. Since Patriot League teams are not stealing skill position recruits from Notre Dame or Michigan – the kind of guys who could make a difference despite what is going on in the lines – my assumption is that, for the time being, line play – and the size of the people making that play – is critical. I therefore assigned 1 Patsy point for each OL recruit of 275 pounds or more and 1 point for each DL recruit of 250 pounds or more.

Players to Watch: As much as I’d like to list everyone’s entire recruiting class, I set a limit and picked out a few recruits who caught my eye. I tried to focus on guys whose names could very well be called this fall, but threw in one or two with longer term appeal. You may not agree, or counter with “How about Smith – or Jones – or Whatsit?!!” On the other hand, you could create your own ratings. Good luck with that.

Mea culpa: I tried to be as fair and dispassionate in creating and researching these ratings as I could. I confess however, to knowing far more about Lafayette and Lehigh recruiting than about the other five schools. I can’t be sure how I did. You be the judge.

PATSY RATINGS FOR THE CLASS OF 2011 (so far):

1. LAFAYETTE (80 Patsy Points)

Quality = 44 (14 Rated recruits)
Class Size = 8 (30 recruits)
Distribution = 8
Speed = 14
Trigger = 5
Jumbo = 1

Players to Watch: Nick BANDONI, LB; Patrick CAREY/Marc QUILLING/Peter RAYMOND, QBs; Tom Kondash, K/P; Mark LAYTON, WR; Nathan PADILA, WR

Summary: This group could wear out that monster scoreboard at Fisher Stadium.

2. LEHIGH (68 Patsy Points)

Quality = 34 (11 Rated recruits)
Class Size = 8 (29 recruits)
Distribution = 9
Speed = 8
Trigger = 2
Jumbo = 7

Players to Watch: Charles BRALLIER, DL, J.B. CLARK, QB; Trace CISNEROS, QB; Dan JONES, DL; Tom RANDAZZA, K; Phil WINNETT, DL

Summary: Wendy’s once asked “Where’s the beef?” Answer: it’s in Bethlehem, PA

3. FORDHAM (42 Patsy Points)

Quality = 20 (5 Rated recruits)
Class Size = 6 (25 recruits)
Distribution = 7
Speed = 4
Trigger = 5
Jumbo = 0

Players to Watch: Clay BUSCH, QB; Andre Delaire, LB; Nick MAGIERA, LB; Sean MARA, QB; Martin XAVIER, RB

Summary: This group should help the Rams move back into contention.

Wow Great write up

[ngineer]

Sorry, gang, no Patsy Points for twins or even siblings. Maybe next year we will work it into the system.

What--no style points for having a 'nice pair of genes'...;) :D

[RichH2]

Holy cross list up No real surprises . morgan DL.\, Dimichele db Turner at wr Coriasso wr Johnson at db solid overall class Koster at qb probably a TE DL very small.

[RichH2]

Forgot the Ol Wise from Kentucky, a good one,

Not a deep class DL and wrs seem to be the highlight

[carney2]

1. Lafayette 77

2. Lehigh 68

3. Fordham 60

4. Colgate 57

5. Bucknell 54

6. HOLY CROSS 22
QUALITY Points 4 (2 Rated Recruits)
CLASS SIZE Points 7 (28 Recruits)
DISTRIBUTION Points 8
SPEED Points 1
TRIGGER Points 0
JUMBO Points 2

Players to Watch:

Summary:

[DFW HOYA]

1. Lafayette 77
2. Lehigh 68
3. Fordham 60
4. Colgate 57
5. Bucknell 54
6. Holy Cross 22


One more to go...

[Lehigh74]

Carney, why no "players to watch" and no "summary" for Holy Cross?

[carney2]

Carney, why no "players to watch" and no "summary" for Holy Cross?

I kind of thought that 22 Patsy Points - with 15 of those coming from the "if-you-can-fog-a-mirror" categories of Class Size and Distribution - would speak for itself. Not a good group in my opinion.

[LBPop]

One more to go...
Yep, the silence is deafening! xconfusedx

[RichH2]

I always thought silence was golden. I do hope GU can come in with a better potential class than HC.

[carney2]

LEHIGH

THE GOOD: Lots of good here for a program that defined their needs and went out and got it done.
1. The DL recruits average – AVERAGE! – 270 pounds, with two of them near or over 300. This is almost unheard of in the PL where small, quick defensive linemen are the rule. One of these guys should start almost immediately, with one or two more literally muscling their way on the field sooner rather than later.
2. 10 linemen – 5 on offense and 5 on defense – in this class. Now, that’s seeing a need and taking care of it.
3. Four of the 5 OL recruits are in that range (270-280) that allow them to “grow” into the size that has been controlling Patriot League scrimmage lines for the past few years.
4. There are two “Rated” QB recruits to contend for the top spot after Sedale Threatt graduates.
5. Five DB recruits should help shore up a secondary that has been suspect at times for the last few years.
6. A “Rated” kicker was signed to add some depth behind All League place kicker, Jason Leo.

THE BAD: It is difficult to find anything truly “bad” about this group, but I have never been reluctant to flip the bird to the ChickenSquawks, so here goes:
1. Coen has stated that he wants to move to a “balanced offense.” Presumably this means that “Air Lehigh” will receive less emphasis in favor of a running game. None of the 3 recruited RBs are “Rated” or stand out in any particular way.
2. Other than QB and kicker, the skill position recruits do not have the same “star” power (get it?) as the grunts.

THE UGLY: Immediate help! None of the other Patriot League coaches can make this claim with quite the same conviction as Andy Coen. I’ve heard some of the Lehigh faithful state that this recruiting class is the final piece of the puzzle. I’m not sure that it’s quite that simple. Still, this group goes a long way to help the Squawks stake their claim, not only for the future, but for the here and now.

[carney2]

BUCKNELL

THE GOOD:
1. If speed kills, this group is Tony Soprano’s North Jersey mafia.
2. Six RBs to feed Landis’s high risk triple option offense. (But see below.)
3. Almost 2/3 of the recruits are for an offense that averaged a 5th best (or 3rd worst, if you will) in the League 316 yds. per game in 2006.
4. Seven receivers (WR + TE) to help a passing offense that averaged only 80 yds. per game in 2006.
5. Six DBs to help a pass defense that gave up 216 yds. per game in 2006.

THE BAD:
1. Very small. Consider these averages: OL, 252 lbs.; DL, 244 lbs.; RB, 5’9”, 179 lbs.
2. One QB recruit for a program that is only one year removed from a season where a DB was forced under center because of injuries.
3. Only eleven recruits for a defense that gave up more than 400 yds. per game in 2006.
4. 6 RB recruits + 14 returning RBs from the 2006 squad = a possible waste of talent.

THE UGLY: Tim Landis has found a better way. While the rest of the League recruits for a traditional balanced offense with oversized grunts up front, the Bison have cast their lot with speed – and, it seems, speed at any cost. If he’s right, Landis will be coach of the year sometime in the near future. (Hell, he’ll be coach of the decade in my book if he pulls this off.) On the other hand – and this is something that you just can’t ignore – if this grand experiment results in a string of 4th or 5th place finishes as many of us believe it will, then it will be a long, long time before the Bison return to the top of the Patriot League. Landis’s successor will inherit a storeroom full of pee-wee sized football uniforms and players who fit perfectly into them.

No matter what you think is exciting at your school, Bucknell is THE story in the Patriot League for the next few years.

[RichH2]

While Hc's class is rather light for size, speed and depth. Gilmore did get some very nice players. HC will I believe mirror LU's early Higgin's years. .500 records with lots of points and some upsets.

Landis has been able to make his system work with little people and speed. Unfortunately his speed while very good is no better than the top PL teams. His system is the key. Hard to prepare for but PL teams have seen it . Another team that will upset teams when the O is perfect and D hangs in. If they don't BU will be a 1st half team again getting ground down in the second half of games.

[RichH2]

OOPs, I forgot my LU quibble. Overall your scan on LU is right on the mark. "star" power at offensive skills agreed is skewed with nofbs at all and pedestrian rbs BUT wr with Walter,Zurn and Shaw is "star" rich.

[ngineer]

LEHIGH

THE GOOD: Lots of good here for a program that defined their needs and went out and got it done.
1. The DL recruits average – AVERAGE! – 270 pounds, with two of them near or over 300. This is almost unheard of in the PL where small, quick defensive linemen are the rule. One of these guys should start almost immediately, with one or two more literally muscling their way on the field sooner rather than later.
2. 10 linemen – 5 on offense and 5 on defense – in this class. Now, that’s seeing a need and taking care of it.
3. Four of the 5 OL recruits are in that range (270-280) that allow them to “grow” into the size that has been controlling Patriot League scrimmage lines for the past few years.
4. There are two “Rated” QB recruits to contend for the top spot after Sedale Threatt graduates.
5. Five DB recruits should help shore up a secondary that has been suspect at times for the last few years.
6. A “Rated” kicker was signed to add some depth behind All League place kicker, Jason Leo.

THE BAD: It is difficult to find anything truly “bad” about this group, but I have never been reluctant to flip the bird to the ChickenSquawks, so here goes:
1. Coen has stated that he wants to move to a “balanced offense.” Presumably this means that “Air Lehigh” will receive less emphasis in favor of a running game. None of the 3 recruited RBs are “Rated” or stand out in any particular way.2. Other than QB and kicker, the skill position recruits do not have the same “star” power (get it?) as the grunts.

THE UGLY: Immediate help! None of the other Patriot League coaches can make this claim with quite the same conviction as Andy Coen. I’ve heard some of the Lehigh faithful state that this recruiting class is the final piece of the puzzle. I’m not sure that it’s quite that simple. Still, this group goes a long way to help the Squawks stake their claim, not only for the future, but for the here and now.

While I agree that the incoming recruits don't possess a 'rating'--not sure that is critical in light of existing, returning backfield which should be very strong. Many times these 'under the radar' recruits will flourish quite well if you have the gargantuan line similar to what the 'pards have done in recent times.
I agree on the lack of a 'marquee' (or is it marquis (;-) ) WR coming back, but Donchez is 6'4" and could become a major player--Yansane has already shown deep threat ability. Iagree these guys have to elevate their game, and the optimist says they will. The new recruits, noted above, are reputed to have excellent speed. So this will be an interesting area to develop....

[Lehigh74]

While I agree that the incoming recruits don't possess a 'rating'--not sure that is critical in light of existing, returning backfield which should be very strong. Many times these 'under the radar' recruits will flourish quite well if you have the gargantuan line similar to what the 'pards have done in recent times.

If they had ratings in those days (which they did not) I doubt that Rabib Abdullah would have been rated. While he was supposedly an under achiever in high school, he was one hell of a great running back in college.

[RichH2]

True, a bit further back LU recruited a rb from NJ ,Stillings ,picked as best recruit in PL that year and Rabuck from Philly ,the next coming of Jack rizzo. He played a bit and was ok but no superstar. Stillings never really performed. Ron jean ,unheralded and way too small had a pretty decent career. Maybe 1 of these kids or the transfer from Fordham could be another diamond.

[LBPop]

If I am not mistaken, the past two "Rookies of the Year" in the Patriot League were not that highly touted. Sure, they were solid kids, but they didn't start at the beginning of their freshman season and I think even their coaches were a bit surprised by their level of success.

Frankly, I am not that many years removed from the recruiting process and I can tell you that some kids receive ratings that are borderline ridiculous. I am no genius, but some things are obvious...both good and bad. After that experience I don't put a lot of stock in that stuff. Although, I admit that is fun to talk about. xrolleyesx

[RichH2]

It'll be even more fun if GU will announce. Carney is barely hanging onto sobriety now a few more weeks and its into rehab for him

[colorless raider]

will ever annouce their class??

[DFW HOYA]

will ever annouce their class??

At this point, it's probably a case of waiting for the formal admissions letters to go out circa April 1.

[carney2]

some kids receive ratings that are borderline ridiculous.

I admit that is fun to talk about. xrolleyesx

And the fun is only beginning. If we can keep this up for a few years we will be able to track some of these "hotshots" and throw in some "Where are they now?" threads. If someone can wake up Kelly we can finish "phase 1" and maybe get on to some other things.

Gotta go. The ice is beginning to dilute my bourbon.

[LBPop]

will ever annouce their class??

This is just a hunch, but I am not expecting the Georgetown SID to be spending a lot of time on football this week. This is just a guess, mind you...xrolleyesx :D

[colgate13]

Good stuff guys. I'm sorry I can't be around more or have more to contribute, but this is fun reading!

All I know about Colgate so far this year is that spring ball started off very well and the boys are hungry. Whatever happens this fall, it won't be because of a lack of work in the off season. I think the QB job is Meyers unless Babb comes out of nowhere to steal it. Meyers is throwing a nice ball IMO.

I'll see you when I see you... Take care!xpeacex

[carney2]

Good stuff guys. I'm sorry I can't be around more or have more to contribute, but this is fun reading!

All I know about Colgate so far this year is that spring ball started off very well and the boys are hungry. Whatever happens this fall, it won't be because of a lack of work in the off season. I think the QB job is Meyers unless Babb comes out of nowhere to steal it. Meyers is throwing a nice ball IMO.

I'll see you when I see you... Take care!xpeacex

Who was that masked man?

[Pard94]

Good stuff guys. I'm sorry I can't be around more or have more to contribute, but this is fun reading!

All I know about Colgate so far this year is that spring ball started off very well and the boys are hungry. Whatever happens this fall, it won't be because of a lack of work in the off season. I think the QB job is Meyers unless Babb comes out of nowhere to steal it. Meyers is throwing a nice ball IMO.

I'll see you when I see you... Take care!xpeacex

13!!!! Back from the land of the lost (aka New Hampshire!). We've missed you! I was wondering what you would think about these Patsy Ratings. Whether or not you agree with Carney's assesments you have to give him much credit for the effort. Hope you can drop by more often. I presume you are well established up here in God's Country. Drop me a line.

[colorless raider]

Good stuff guys. I'm sorry I can't be around more or have more to contribute, but this is fun reading!

All I know about Colgate so far this year is that spring ball started off very well and the boys are hungry. Whatever happens this fall, it won't be because of a lack of work in the off season. I think the QB job is Meyers unless Babb comes out of nowhere to steal it. Meyers is throwing a nice ball IMO.

I'll see you when I see you... Take care!xpeacex
Hey 13, you are a tease. It does not take that much to post on fairly regular basis:D . How about it?

[bison137]

BUCKNELL

THE GOOD:
1. If speed kills, this group is Tony Soprano’s North Jersey mafia.
2. Six RBs to feed Landis’s high risk triple option offense. (But see below.)
3. Almost 2/3 of the recruits are for an offense that averaged a 5th best (or 3rd worst, if you will) in the League 316 yds. per game in 2006.
4. Seven receivers (WR + TE) to help a passing offense that averaged only 80 yds. per game in 2006.
5. Six DBs to help a pass defense that gave up 216 yds. per game in 2006.

THE BAD:
1. Very small. Consider these averages: OL, 252 lbs.; DL, 244 lbs.; RB, 5’9”, 179 lbs.
2. One QB recruit for a program that is only one year removed from a season where a DB was forced under center because of injuries.
3. Only eleven recruits for a defense that gave up more than 400 yds. per game in 2006.
4. 6 RB recruits + 14 returning RBs from the 2006 squad = a possible waste of talent.

THE UGLY: Tim Landis has found a better way. While the rest of the League recruits for a traditional balanced offense with oversized grunts up front, the Bison have cast their lot with speed – and, it seems, speed at any cost. If he’s right, Landis will be coach of the year sometime in the near future. (Hell, he’ll be coach of the decade in my book if he pulls this off.) On the other hand – and this is something that you just can’t ignore – if this grand experiment results in a string of 4th or 5th place finishes as many of us believe it will, then it will be a long, long time before the Bison return to the top of the Patriot League. Landis’s successor will inherit a storeroom full of pee-wee sized football uniforms and players who fit perfectly into them.

No matter what you think is exciting at your school, Bucknell is THE story in the Patriot League for the next few years.

Interesting analysis. A few comments:

1. I agree with the comment about the lack of size on the lines. I'm disappointed in this area of the recruiting class. The defensive line was not strong this past year but at least everyone returns and there are several promising sophs-to-be in the mix as well. Also the change to a 3-4 will allow the Bison to play more to the strength of the defense, which is the linebacking corps.

2. The development of the rising sophs and juniors on the offensive line will probably make or break the 2007 team. Probably true for the next year as well, because it does not appear that this recruiting class has a lot of candidates to earn starting spots on the OL. Last year's recuiting class had a couple of good O-line prospects but unfortunately the best one went to Duquesne in July and started for them the whole year.

3. There is not nearly as big a redundancy in running backs as you think. The spring depth chart has a total of 8 RB's for three starting spots. Perhaps three of the eight are not candidates to see playing time in the fall, but two very good players who had ACL surgery should return by the opener. The RB position also lost a rising junior (Kadero Watson), who was #2 on the team in rushing as a freshman but succumbed to major knee problems. Also lost a player who opted to leave the sport.

4. The incoming RB's are not quite as smurf-sized as your stats indicate since there may well be only three who are serious candidates to carry the ball. Those three average 5' 10 1/2", 188 lbs. The two very small ones are likely only kick returners.

5. I don't think QB was a priority. The Bison return two good rising sophs (Trigg and Lair) who each started 4+ games this past season, and also return a rising senior who was the opening-day starting QB as a soph. Also, a rising junior has returned to football, giving them a fourth QB for added depth. A fifth QB, who also has started games, did not play last year due to a pre-season injury but may be available in the fall as well.

6. Times for the 40 are frequently exaagerated, but if the times are anywhere close to being accurate then this class adds a lot of much-needed speed to the defensive backfield.

[colgate13]

I'm just coming out of a long winter of work boys...

Seriously, excellent effort carney! It's really awesome to read all the PL chatter on this site. I'm going to avoid coming on after a prolonged abscence and say this and that about Colgate. I just know it would be a mistake to write us off for having one losing season in 10 years. The Raiders will be contenders again in the very near future.

Frankly, I think it's exciting that there is no real frontrunner IMO this year. It should be exciting ball to watch.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Glad to see 13 is back!!! xhurrayx xhurrayx xhurrayx

I'm still circling 11/3 on the calendar, so certainly don't think I'm looking past the 'Gate just yet!

By the way, is it true that coach Tavani gave coach Biddle champagne, flowers and chocolate for Christmas this year? xrotatehx xlolx xrotatehx xlolx xrotatehx

[Lehigh74]

I'm just coming out of a long winter of work boys...

Seriously, excellent effort carney! It's really awesome to read all the PL chatter on this site. I'm going to avoid coming on after a prolonged abscence and say this and that about Colgate. I just know it would be a mistake to write us off for having one losing season in 10 years. The Raiders will be contenders again in the very near future.


I haven't seen anyone on this board write off Colgate. Colgate has had a great football program for a long time and will likely continue to have a great program. Colgate also spends more money on football than any school in the league. Generally, in the end, there is a correlation between financial investment and results.

[ngineer]

Good to see that '13' has raised his head out of the hole--and no shadow! Looking forward to some more insights from up north. Am seriously thinking of schlepping to Hamilton this year. got some electric socks to try out...:D

[RichH2]

Even a short visit from the estimable '13' is welcome.

[colgate13]

I lost my insight a long time ago... I'm going on homer and a tidbit of stuff that I know. My comment about writing Colgate off was in reference to the suggestion that Colgate has slipped/was slipping from the "Big 3".

[ngineer]

I lost my insight a long time ago... I'm going on homer and a tidbit of stuff that I know. My comment about writing Colgate off was in reference to the suggestion that Colgate has slipped/was slipping from the "Big 3".

One 'off season' does not slippage make. However, two in row would trigger alarm bells. I see the PL being very balanced this year. Certainly, L & L have to be given slight nods, but 'gate and HC could make things interesting, and Bucknell and Fordham have enough to upset anyone (just don't see enough for the long haul). Hoyas...improving, but until they do it there will be skeptics.

[colgate13]

One 'off season' does not slippage make. However, two in row would trigger alarm bells.

http://www.nofear.org/Archives/Media/2003/07/alfred_neuman.jpg

What, Me Worry?

[Go...gate]

I haven't seen anyone on this board write off Colgate. Colgate has had a great football program for a long time and will likely continue to have a great program. Colgate also spends more money on football than any school in the league. Generally, in the end, there is a correlation between financial investment and results.

Here's hoping you are correct, Lehigh74. There seems to be some concern among some of us from Colgate that despite a move to scholarships, athletics is slipping toward the bare minimum of Division I competitiveness. It certainly looked that way in several sports this winter, such as Men's and Women's BB and Men's Hockey. Time will tell.

[carney2]

COLGATE

THE GOOD:
1. Andy, a frequent poster here at AGS, a guru when it comes to PL recruiting, and one of a half dozen or so whose brains I pick before claiming their thoughts and ideas as my own, has seen some tapes of one of ‘gate’s two QB recruits and says that he’s the real deal. Although there are, so far, six other QB recruits in the League’s Class of 2011 with “on paper” credentials equal to or exceeding this guy’s, I am deferring to Andy on this one and stating that this recruit has the potential to be Saraceno’s successor - and maybe even a step up.
2. Four of the 5 OL recruits are of the size that they could “grow” into the kind of beasts that have controlled PL scrimmage lines for the past few years.
3. Eleven recruited linemen (5 OL and 6 DL) is an attempt to address what I saw as a serious weakness last year.
4. Some apparently talented individuals at TE, DB and WR. At least two individuals in this group are on my personal “watch” list since I consider them to be potential stars.

THE BAD:
1. “Only” 8 “Rated” recruits, the lowest number of the “Big 3.” Comparison: Lafayette landed 15 “Rated” recruits, yielding them 44 Quality Patsy Points + 5 Trigger Points (also based on recruiting service ratings) for a total of 49; Lehigh shows 10 “Rated” recruits, yielding 34 Quality Points + 2 Trigger Points for a total of 36; Colgate’s 8 “Rated” recruits totaled 26 Quality Points + 2 Trigger Points for a total of 28. You can give me all of the platitudes (“We won’t know for 4 years.” “The rating services are imperfect.” “The rating services suk.” Etc.), but indications are that this class is not at or near the top of the heap in the Patriot League. Not a disaster, but not keeping pace with the competition and certainly not up to the level that we’ve come to expect from the Raiders.
2. DL recruits average only 219. This is not a typo, and with, as noted above, 6 DL recruits it is not as if one Lilliputian is skewing the statistics here. The largest of the DL recruits is listed at only 238 and he is listed as a DL/LB, so he may never actually be a down lineman. Three of these guys are listed at 210 or less and you have to wonder how they are going to fare against PL offensive lines that seem to be getting larger with each passing year.
3. Only one RB recruit, and if he is Jordan Scott's backup/successor, it isn't obvious.

THE UGLY: I have been watching Biddle’s teams dispatch my beloved Pards for over a decade now and, despite last year’s first ever win over a Biddle coached team, I think that deep down, some part of me views this as somehow a state of nature. I get the feeling from reading posts here and elsewhere that the Raider faithful feel much the same way. “In Biddle we trust.” “All will be well because it always has been.” “Don’t sweat the small stuff.” Unfortunately, this may not be the small stuff. In terms of Patsy Points, this Colgate recruiting class is sandwiched between Fordham and Bucknell, both of whom got “attaboys” and “well dones” on this board and elsewhere. The difference is that both the Rams and the Bison are climbing from the depths and are attempting to plant their flags a little higher on the mountain. After winning or sharing 5 of the last 10 PL championships and making it to the I-AA championship game less than 4 years ago, it can be argued that the Raiders are king of that mountain. The fact that their recruiting class is pretty much the equal of programs struggling to become competitive cannot be viewed as a good sign. In fact, having this recruiting effort immediately following last year’s 4-7 performance by a team that was the League’s preseason favorite means that there are currently more questions to be answered in Hamilton, NY than there have been for quite a while.

Someone will say (it seems to be said after every one of these posts) that Colgate will be very competitive this year, as if focusing on the 2007 season is a response to criticism of this recruiting class. Regardless, I agree. Biddle has enough talent on hand to put together a fine team this fall. This is about the current crop of recruits, however. IT’S NOT ABOUT THIS YEAR. We are talking about the 2009 and 2010 teams, the first two teams of the post Jordan Scott era.

[colorless raider]

I would not argue with most of your analysis except to say the I would rate QB with double points given how important it is to any team. I, too was concerned with the weights of the DL's. We could use a run stopper.

[carney2]

I would not argue with most of your analysis except to say the I would rate QB with double points given how important it is to any team. I, too was concerned with the weights of the DL's. We could use a run stopper.

QBs do get extra, if not double, points. That's the purpose of the Trigger Points. Any "Rated" QB gets extra points. Check the methodology explanation in the first post of this thread.

[LBPop]

http://www.nofear.org/Archives/Media/2003/07/alfred_neuman.jpg


So, while you weren't burning up bandwidth this winter, were you burning any of that cheap Citgo Venezuelan Oil to keep warm? xeyebrowx

[carney2]

HOLY CROSS

THE GOOD:
1. Good size for the OL recruits. 3 of the 4 are in that 270+ zone that frequently blossom into true PL Hogs.
2. Seven wide receiver recruits for a team that returns two All-League wide outs is either way too much of a good thing or else Tom Gilmore is giving us a glance at the future of ‘sader football. In any event the Dominic Randolph Air Show still has two years to run at Fitton Field and a lot of bodies will be needed to keep the ball in the air.

THE BAD:
1. Only 2 “Rated” recruits, both of whom are place kickers.
2. Only 2 RB recruits for a team that threw the ball 55% of the time in 2006. (By comparison, only two other PL teams threw even 40% of the time.)
3. DL recruits average only 233. On the plus side, two of the five are in that traditional PL range of 240 – 245, but the other three are in need of a growth spurt before they face those 300 pound offensive linemen in the PL.
4. Only 11 recruits for a defense that lost 6 starters. Five of the eleven are DLs, and, as noted above, only two of those appear to be big enough to contend with PL offensive linemen. That leaves only 6 recruits to bolster the rest of the defense.

THE UGLY: Say what you will about the Patsy Ratings and this attempt to apply “science” to the annual recruiting circus, but this Holy Cross recruiting class is, so far (do we need to have some Ritalyn prescriptions filled at Georgetown?!), dead last with only 7 Patsy Points coming from categories other than the “gimmes” of Class Size and Distribution. They are not only last, but they are last by a huge margin. There does not appear to be any way that one can “spin” this group into even an “adequate” rating. On the plus side, it’s a fairly large group with 28 signed recruits. God knows that recruiting, and particularly recruiting at the CS (formerly I-AA) level, is a crap shoot and that frequently guys mature, develop, or just plain come out of nowhere to become great college players. The theory of large numbers gives Gilmore a shot at some of this happening. More to the point, however, the ‘saders lost 6 defensive starters from 2006 and their very entertaining offense is about as one dimensional as an offense can be. Tom Gilmore did far and away the best coaching job in the PL last year, taking his team to 7-4 and keeping them in the championship hunt right to the end. Without immediate help however, he will have to be Houdini to keep things going without re-tooling his defense and finding some way to keep opposing defenses honest and out of Dominic Randolph's face. This group does not appear to offer much of that help.

[LBPop]

do we need to have some Ritalyn prescriptions filled at Georgetown

There is apparently no truth to the rumor that Georgetown has elected to stand pat, not recruit, and simply have the basketball team play football too. xlolx xrolleyesx :( xbawlingx

[RichH2]

l

[carney2]

l

?

[ngineer]

?

Looks like RichH2 has Georgetown's recruiting list..:D

[DFW HOYA]

I don't sense anything unusual here. With very few grants to give out, most of the recruits have to evaluate the loan portion of their financial aid between now and 5/15, and no school wants to announce a kid that suddenly ends up going somewhere else when he can't pay the bill.

[65 Pard]

Been wintering in FL, but found this very interesting catchup thread...Hope Carney is correct
We like FL so much that this will be my last season to attend Fisher Stadium games as a PA resident.....I may catch some on the way back south in future years....but I will be at the Princeton game this year and looking forward to finally beating the stripes off those Tigers.

[LBPop]

I don't sense anything unusual here. With very few grants to give out, most of the recruits have to evaluate the loan portion of their financial aid between now and 5/15, and no school wants to announce a kid that suddenly ends up going somewhere else when he can't pay the bill.

That makes sense to me, but isn't every other Patriot League school in essentially the same situation? Is it perhaps that Georgetown cannot offer as much, so the kids are weighing the value of Georgetown vs. the additional cost? Also, I would think by now that there are a number of kids who have made their decision and that would allow Georgetown to release a partial list. My concern is that by being so quiet, Georgetown continues to appear to be lagging behind its competition--if only for generating fan interest.

[carney2]

I don't sense anything unusual here. With very few grants to give out, most of the recruits have to evaluate the loan portion of their financial aid between now and 5/15, and no school wants to announce a kid that suddenly ends up going somewhere else when he can't pay the bill.

DFW and I seem destined to live out our days in disagreement. A couple points that I feel are relevant:

A. Here are the current Patsy Rankings:

1. Lafayette
2. Lehigh
3. Fordham
4. Colgate
5. Bucknell
6. Holy Cross

And here is the order in which schools released their recruiting information:

1. Lafayette
2. Fordham
3. Lehigh
4. Bucknell
5. Colgate
6. Holy Cross

I don't know about you, but I detect some correlation between "good news" and earlier releases of information. This is no knock on Georgetown. For all I know they stole a couple dozen 5-star recruits away from Florida. It just doesn't give me a good feeling.

B. As for recruits and their families waiting around until May 15th so that they can completely evaluate their financial aid packages, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. In demand recruits are not going to wait. They have options, and they exercise those options long before May. Again, if I'm hanging my hopes on this piece of logic, I don't have a good feeling.

Stretching LB's comments a little: for those of us who follow the game and who care, this is a PR disaster. For every "logical reason" that is advanced for the delays, one comes up with two or more "bad feelings," and we are left with something of a bad taste.


Hope Carney is correct

I'm sure that my point totals are off in most, if not all, cases. I'm equally certain that the methodology could use some serious tweeking. On the other hand, I think that the relative positioning of the recruiting efforts is fairly decent.

[RichH2]

Yup, that was the full list(lol) or a bran spasm from me that I answered the phone and forgot to post

[DFW HOYA]

I don't know about you, but I detect some correlation between "good news" and earlier releases of information. This is no knock on Georgetown. For all I know they stole a couple dozen 5-star recruits away from Florida. It just doesn't give me a good feeling.

B. As for recruits and their families waiting around until May 15th so that they can completely evaluate their financial aid packages, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. In demand recruits are not going to wait. They have options, and they exercise those options long before May. Again, if I'm hanging my hopes on this piece of logic, I don't have a good feeling.

Stretching LB's comments a little: for those of us who follow the game and who care, this is a PR disaster. For every "logical reason" that is advanced for the delays, one comes up with two or more "bad feelings," and we are left with something of a bad taste.


It's not like Georgetown has no commitments--there have been 21 names listed on HoyaSaxa.com for almost seven weeks. It's the last 3 or 4 that are probably in play on financial aid and outside this board, there's not much, make that, almost no demand for the list. The three local papers largely ignore college (read=non Redskins) football and aren't going to give it any coverage.

Georgetown has almost unlimited potential in I-AA but it's a tough product to promote right now. The gameday surroundings are (with the exception of Parsons Field) as barren as any in I-AA, the academic index isn't landing any five-star recruits, and financial aid is still half of the rest of the PL. There is minimal crossover with the Georgetown basketball fan base, and the number of consecutive losing seasons (seven) is a record for the school.

All that being said, winning cures a lot of ills and that's the mandate for Coach Kelly and his staff. He wasn't hired away from Navy to go 2-9 every season and I expect we will see a lot more in 2007 than was available to him in 2006.

[ngineer]

Maybe the Hoyas are taking a page out of Obama's playbook--hold off in making the fundraising information in order to garner some headlines and all the suspense.
Seriously, though, I don't see the delay as that big a deal. Georgetown doesn't seem to have the avid fan base that some others have where there are a lot of people clamouring for any news about recruiting--you Hoyas on this Board are exceptions to the general rule. Therefore there is not urgency on the SID office to get this out quickly, and they might as well take their time and get everyone on board for a complete announcement. Remember, last year, Lehigh lost a high acclaimed OL to Holy Cross after he was already released on Lehigh's recruit list.xtwocentsx

[carney2]

there have been 21 names listed on HoyaSaxa.com

Thanks for this piece of info. I now have a head start on the Hoyas.

[Pards Rule]

Been wintering in FL, but found this very interesting catchup thread...Hope Carney is correct
We like FL so much that this will be my last season to attend Fisher Stadium games as a PA resident.....I may catch some on the way back south in future years....but I will be at the Princeton game this year and looking forward to finally beating the stripes off those Tigers.

Good idea today! It was wet snowing this AM (ground cover to a few inches) in the Philly area. When is that Princeton game? I think I will attend too. Are you in Fort Myers area?

[65 Pard]

Good idea today! It was wet snowing this AM (ground cover to a few inches) in the Philly area. When is that Princeton game? I think I will attend too. Are you in Fort Myers area?


Princeton is Sept 22....
We are back in PA to put house on market......moving to FL this winter. A resort community on Space Coast called The Great Outdoors

[NYHOYA]

http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/050407aaa.html

Georgetown recruits have been released.

[colorless raider]

some excellent athletes.

[DFW HOYA]

You can scratch one of the names from the Feb. 4 list: DB Daniel Harper will pass on Georgetown and walk on at Southern California.

http://www.insidesocal.com/usc/archives/2007/05/fall_walkons.html

[carney2]

1. Lafayette 77

2. Lehigh 68

3. Fordham 60

4. Colgate 57

5. Bucknell 54

6. GEORGETOWN 38 Patsy Points
Quality Points = 10 (5 Rated Recruits)
Class Size = 8 (30 Recruits)
Distribution Points = 8
Speed Points = 9
Trigger Points = 0
Jumbo Points = 3
Players to watch: Anthony FORD, RB; Arius FORD, DB; Mychal HARRISON, RB; Justin THOMAS, RB

7. Holy Cross 22

[NYHOYA]

6. GEORGETOWN 38 Patsy Points
Quality Points = 10 (5 Rated Recruits)
Class Size = 8 (30 Recruits)
Distribution Points = 8
Speed Points = 9
Trigger Points = 0
Jumbo Points = 3
Players to watch: Anthony FORD, RB; Arius FORD, DB; Mychal HARRISON, RB; Justin THOMAS, RB



Should be 6 rated recruits; Harrison, both Fords, Thomas, Semler and Parrish.

[ngineer]

All right--FINALLY! Now, where the hell is Holy Cross????xconfusedx

[carney2]

Should be 6 rated recruits; Harrison, both Fords, Thomas, Semler and Parrish.

Sorry, but I'm coming up empty on Parrish. Any guidance you could provide would be gratefully appreciated.

[Fordham]

Since this has become the default PL thread, I'll post here that Larry Dortch has returned to our squad.

[RichH2]

A better class than GU has gotten recently, lots of athletes and skill kids but still has not fixed their major issue, lack of size and depth on both lines.

Even so a step forward for the program.

[NYHOYA]

Sorry, but I'm coming up empty on Parrish. Any guidance you could provide would be gratefully appreciated.

Found him on scout.com.

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=2445148

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Since this has become the default PL thread, I'll post here that Larry Dortch has returned to our squad.

That's a great, great thing for Fordham. Congrats xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

Should be 6 rated recruits; Harrison, both Fords, Thomas, Semler and Parrish.

Are you sure? Did any of these rank with Rivals?

[NYHOYA]

Are you sure? Did any of these rank with Rivals?

All except Parrish were listed on rivals (he was listed on scout.com) although only Harrison had more than one star. The Harper kid who you mentioned in your previous post was also listed on scout.com, with a 4.48 40, man does it suck that he chose to go elsewhere.

[carney2]

Found him on scout.com.

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=2445148

Sorry again, but the "mention" that you found at scout.com does not qualify Mr. Parrish as a "Rated" recruit. Scout uses the star system and in order to qualify for Patsy Quality Points via scout, the recruit needs to have "earned" at least one star. If you go to the toolbar at the top of the page that you reference and click on "Prospects," you will be in the area where "Rated" recruits are mentioned and assigned their star ratings. Check the first post of this thread for the rules.

Check my next post. The Hoya Patsy Point total just went up. The "Rated recruits" number is holding at 5, however.

[carney2]

All except Parrish were listed on rivals (he was listed on scout.com) although only Harrison had more than one star. The Harper kid who you mentioned in your previous post was also listed on scout.com, with a 4.48 40, man does it suck that he chose to go elsewhere.

Actually, Harrison is the only one with any stars. He, as indicated, received two from rivals.com. I shame-facedly admit to having screwed the moose on this one, so

6. GEORGETOWN 42 Patsy Points

[NYHOYA]

Sorry again, but the "mention" that you found at scout.com does not qualify Mr. Parrish as a "Rated" recruit. Scout uses the star system and in order to qualify for Patsy Quality Points via scout, the recruit needs to have "earned" at least one star. If you go to the toolbar at the top of the page that you reference and click on "Prospects," you will be in the area where "Rated" recruits are mentioned and assigned their star ratings. Check the first post of this thread for the rules.

Check my next post. The Hoya Patsy Point total just went up. The "Rated recruits" number is holding at 5, however.

My apologies, misunderstood the rating system.

[NYHOYA]

just found a link some of the Gtown fans on here might be interested in...

http://www.texaspreps.net/

If you click 2007 Texas Videos (left of page) you can find highlight tapes for Hoya recruits Anthony Ford (number 1067), Arius Ford (number 1070), Alex Carroll (number 1114) and Philip Oladeji (number 1143).

[carney2]

just found a link some of the Gtown fans on here might be interested in...

http://www.texaspreps.net/

If you click 2007 Texas Videos (left of page) you can find highlight tapes for Hoya recruits Anthony Ford (number 1067), Arius Ford (number 1070), Alex Carroll (number 1114) and Philip Oladeji (number 1143).

Great stuff. If you find one on Harrison be sure to throw it in.

Your post total tells me that you are new here. You're interested. You're informed. You, along with DFW and LB, give Georgetown one of the stronger Patriot League contingents on this board. Looking forward to more exchanges with you.

[NYHOYA]

Great stuff. If you find one on Harrison be sure to throw it in.

Your post total tells me that you are new here. You're interested. You're informed. You, along with DFW and LB, give Georgetown one of the stronger Patriot League contingents on this board. Looking forward to more exchanges with you.

You can actually view Harrisons tape off of his rivals page. I've found that rivals will let u watch one video even if your not a subscriber but when you try to watch a second it'l stop you. Kind of confusing in a way but basically every time you log on to rivals.com you can watch one video without paying for it.

I do not know if I would consider myself as informed as many of the people who frequent this board but I appreciate the compliment and am looking forward to more exchanges with you as well.

[carney2]

GEORGETOWN

THE GOOD:
1. “Usually reliable sources” report that this is the best group of Hoya recruits in years.
2. Some speed to go with the talent.
3. DL recruits are 250, 250 and 260. Not overwhelming, but reasonable size by PL standards.
4. 16 offensive recruits and 12 for the defense with reasonable distribution. Six DBs (if you count the one recruit who is also listed as a RB) should help add some depth to an injury plagued secondary.
5. Thirteen states represented, coast to coast. Will take that as a sign that Kelly is using Georgetown’s national reputation and name recognition to his advantage.

THE BAD:
1. Nine (9) RBs. That’s 30% of the incoming class. Huh?
2. The 3 OL recruits average 240, with the largest at 250. Does not do much to solve the ongoing Hoya size problem on that side of the ball.
3. Of the 5 “Rated” recruits, only one received any “star” designations. None of the recruits were rated by the more demanding scout.com.
4. Only one WR and he is smallish at 5’10”, 175. Add in the fact that there are no TE recruits and you conclude that there is a one year “hole” in receiver recruiting.

THE UGLY: Indications are that the Hoyas have taken a step in the right direction – not a huge step mind you, but there is discernible movement. Will this group give the long-suffering Hoya faithful something to cheer about in the next 4 years? Absolutely. Will this group lead them to contention and the Promised Land? Probably not. Ya gotta start somewhere however, and this, Kelly’s first real recruiting class, just may be that start.

[NYHOYA]

Hoyas are returning 6 TEs, two were juniors last year, one was a soph and three were freshman. Granted it would have probably been a good idea to pick up one but it is not a very big deal that we did not. We also have a alot of numbers at wideout only graduating one of FOURTEEN receivers from last year according to last years media guide (granted a couple of those guys have switched positions). Also worth noting that we recruited two wide receivers (Ford and Hillgren) Ford is listed as WR/RB but I think anyone who watches that highlight I posted a link to would say receiver without question.

[RichH2]

He may do as Coen did in camp this spring. Those extra TEs become athletic Olinemen

[carney2]

Hoyas are returning 6 TEs, two were juniors last year, one was a soph and three were freshman. Granted it would have probably been a good idea to pick up one but it is not a very big deal that we did not. We also have a alot of numbers at wideout only graduating one of FOURTEEN receivers from last year according to last years media guide (granted a couple of those guys have switched positions). Also worth noting that we recruited two wide receivers (Ford and Hillgren) Ford is listed as WR/RB but I think anyone who watches that highlight I posted a link to would say receiver without question.

Worthwhile information. Thanks. I once again, however, urge you to read - really read - the first post of this thread where the rules of the road are spelled out. In there somewhere - I think under "Distribution Points" - it is stated, and in later posts elaborated upon, that the biggest single weakness of this rating system - and there are many - is that it does not take a team's needs into consideration. There are no points awarded for meeting needs, and there are no passes on "holes" in the recruiting class because the team has an excess of a something or other. The reason is simple: I am a one man band here and cannot pretend to understand the needs of each of the 7 programs. I understand one (Lafayette) fairly well and another (Lehigh) a little. The rest - well, not so much.

At some point - probably after we decide that this has gone about as far as possible for this year - we (and that's all of us) will begin a critique session/thread to see what can be done to improve this system. Perhaps there is a way to determine needs and assign points for meeting them. I have some thoughts, but need cooler heads to help me give them form. Anyway, put your thinking caps on

BUCKNELL: Ken_Z, bison137
COLGATE: Valley Raider, Go...gate, colorless raider, 13
FORDHAM: Fordham
GEORGETOWN: LB, DFW, NY, Hoya Fan
HOLY CROSS:
LAFAYETTE: cosmo, Andy, 94, letsgo, LeopardFan04, Pard4Life, 65 Pard, Pards Rule
LEHIGH: RichH, ngineer, LFN, GLTUo, Lehigh 74

Apologies if I missed anyone. This is, I believe, a complete roster of the PL people who have so far participated in this thread. These are 25 people,including me, with far too much time on their hands. Thanks to one and all for keeping it going and for not really losing sight of the main purpose: to have a little fun in the December to August football desert..

[Fordham]

so far I think Holy Cross has had the best contributions to this thread.

[carney2]

so far I think Holy Cross has had the best contributions to this thread.

Perplexing, even distressing. The last two years should have generated some serious interest up there in Woo. Maybe it has, but it just doesn't show itself at AGS(?) Still, I worry about all of the "no commitment," "no resources," "basketball or no count" talk. If the alumni aren't fans of the program, then what will become of it?

It is very difficult to get a read on the 'saders without serious and passionate people at this site to state their case. Average home attendance last year was 5,742, but was all over the lot. Good crowds for Northeastern (8,112) and Fordham (9,547), and almost no one for Lehigh (1,428 - weather?).

[travelinman67]

so far I think Holy Cross has had the best contributions to this thread.

...are you on a crusade for their input?

[RichH2]

Crusades are fun,we get to ride horses and play with swords.

It is a bit surprising that HC lacks presence here as thye do have a good bit of activity on their home site, much more on BBall of course.

[Pard4Life]

Perplexing, even distressing. The last two years should have generated some serious interest up there in Woo. Maybe it has, but it just doesn't show itself at AGS(?) Still, I worry about all of the "no commitment," "no resources," "basketball or no count" talk. If the alumni aren't fans of the program, then what will become of it?

It is very difficult to get a read on the 'saders without serious and passionate people at this site to state their case. Average home attendance last year was 5,742, but was all over the lot. Good crowds for Northeastern (8,112) and Fordham (9,547), and almost no one for Lehigh (1,428 - weather?).

Are those average football attendance numbers? Can't be... Fordham does not even have that capacity.. and there should be another '1' for Lehigh there.

[Pard4Life]

...are you on a crusade for their input?

Ha.. it is interesting... before last season, Holy Cross was the only team I did not see represented on this site.. Ken_Z kept the Bison visible, even though they are not in the standings..

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Isn't justballin27 a HC person? Granted, he's been quiet about this, but they are out there.

[Pard4Life]

As for devising a better recruiting class evaluation method carney, I will sit this one out.. I am not a fan of ranking classes, especially when you don't know how well they will translate into college players.. when we do have the information for rankings, it is reflected in the final season standings each year. All I like to see in recruits is previous success and impressive numbers.. certainly not a harbinger, but it is a small glimpse of what is possible..

[RichH2]

While 4life is certainly correct, it is fun and if we can keep it going for a couple of years, it should actually start being a somewhat more accurate predictor for each school.

Over the past 4 years I have tracked LU's ranked players. Approx.2/3s have at least lettered and contributed. That may increase this yr with soph class.


An off beat Q where did term "rising " senior, junior come from? It seems every SID, including ours, is using it, the last couple of years. Does it annoy anyone else but me? Every time I see it I think of yeast and the Pillsbury dough boy. While that may be OK with some of our linemen, it is fast becoming the most overused and meaningless word in the press releases.

[bison137]

Are those average football attendance numbers? Can't be... Fordham does not even have that capacity.. and there should be another '1' for Lehigh there.


Those are all correct figures but remember they are all for HC HOME games. Fitton can seat over 20,000.

By way of explanation. The HC game with Northeastern was played in perfect weather and involved another local team. The Fordham game was HC homecoming. The Lehigh game, with the attendance of 1400 (that is a correct number), was played in heavy rain. BTW, their final home game the next week, vs Bucknell, was played in cool but dry weather and drew about 5000.

[Pard4Life]

Those are all correct figures but remember they are all for HC HOME games. Fitton can seat over 20,000.

By way of explanation. The HC game with Northeastern was played in perfect weather and involved another local team. The Fordham game was HC homecoming. The Lehigh game, with the attendance of 1400 (that is a correct number), was played in heavy rain. BTW, their final home game the next week, vs Bucknell, was played in cool but dry weather and drew about 5000.

OH.. I missed something there, and I was reading carefully too, ugh..

Then those do make sense for HC's attendance numbers... the Lehigh game numbers are definetely right, that game was played in mud and rain.. I think the same day Lafayette played at Colgate (late Oct).

The biggest attendance figure lie I ever saw was the Columbia-Lafayette '06 hurricane game.. 200 people.. NO WAY.. I was there.. there were at MOST 50 people in the stands.. they probably counted the press box and players..

[DFW HOYA]

Fitton is the largest PL stadium at 23,500, followed by Lehigh (16,000), Lafayette (13,750), Bucknell (13,100), Colgate (10,221), and Fordham (7,000).

The unnamed and unfinished field at Georgetown is variously listed as 2,400, 2,500, 3,000 or as much as 4,500 which it is definitely not. Wikipedia noted that "Construction on the Multi-Sport Field began in 2005, completing the turf field and adjacent fencing before halting construction thereafter."

And even that's generous--the fencing only makes it along one end zone.

[ngineer]

Fitton is the largest PL stadium at 23,500, followed by Lehigh (16,000), Lafayette (13,750), Bucknell (13,100), Colgate (10,221), and Fordham (7,000).

The unnamed and unfinished field at Georgetown is variously listed as 2,400, 2,500, 3,000 or as much as 4,500 which it is definitely not. Wikipedia noted that "Construction on the Multi-Sport Field began in 2005, completing the turf field and adjacent fencing before halting construction thereafter."

And even that's generous--the fencing only makes it along one end zone.

Having been to Georgetown last year, I place the seating capacity at 3000. We had a pretty good turnout of over 1,000 from my estimate with the visitor stands about 2/3 full.
Goodman can actually hold 20,000 with the grass horseshoe being used by many of the students choose to sit there on a nice dry day. It's where I spent many hours when my kids were youngsters and they loved to be with the 'big college kids' and roll up and down the embankment.

[carney2]

The biggest attendance figure lie I ever saw was the Columbia-Lafayette '06 hurricane game.. 200 people.. NO WAY.. I was there.. there were at MOST 50 people in the stands.. they probably counted the press box and players..

That is a good question: how is attendance determined? Is the technique mandated by someone (NCAA) or is it a school be school thing? I know, for instance that Penn State used to count everyone in the stadium: players, officials, TV crews, everyone. It was not limited to tickets sold or bodies in the viewing area/stands. I also remember that Lafayette used to always list attendance for the sold out home game vs. Lehigh as exactly the old Fisher Field capacity. They went to no trouble to find a "better" number. Not at all knowledgeable about what they are doing these days.

[carney2]

I am not a fan of ranking classes, especially when you don't know how well they will translate into college players.. when we do have the information for rankings, it is reflected in the final season standings each year.

I'm not a patient guy; need more immediate gratification. Besides, in 4 years, who remembers?

[Franks Tanks]

OH.. I missed something there, and I was reading carefully too, ugh..

Then those do make sense for HC's attendance numbers... the Lehigh game numbers are definetely right, that game was played in mud and rain.. I think the same day Lafayette played at Colgate (late Oct).

The biggest attendance figure lie I ever saw was the Columbia-Lafayette '06 hurricane game.. 200 people.. NO WAY.. I was there.. there were at MOST 50 people in the stands.. they probably counted the press box and players..


That game was completely ridicilious I was watching that one on TV. The conditions were so bad that most of teh grass on the field was ripped out that day causing a muddy bog, and the field was terrible for the rest of the year.

[carney2]

That game was completely ridicilious I was watching that one on TV. The conditions were so bad that most of teh grass on the field was ripped out that day causing a muddy bog, and the field was terrible for the rest of the year.

There were actually 51 people in attendance. One of my friends skulked down in the walkways under the stands. I would have to call down and distance down to him while he puffed on cigarettes. We would move from opening to opening as play moved up and down the field.

Lafayette got called for a number of flase start/illegal procedure penalties when the ball got stuck in the mud and the center could not pry it loose in time to make the snap count. Columbia didn't seem to have that problem.

Both QBs would use pools (lakes) of standing water to clean their hands between plays.

It was, I believe, the most water to ever fall on the Lehigh Valley in a single 24 hour period (10-13 inches, depending on where you happened to be).

This was probably the moment that any debate about synthetic surface ceased. Bruce now will proudly tell anyone within earshot that the new surface can handle up to 22 inches of water.

[LeopardFan04]

There were actually 51 people in attendance. One of my friends skulked down in the walkways under the stands. I would have to call down and distance down to him while he puffed on cigarettes. We would move from opening to opening as play moved up and down the field.

Lafayette got called for a number of flase start/illegal procedure penalties when the ball got stuck in the mud and the center could not pry it loose in time to make the snap count. Columbia didn't seem to have that problem.

Both QBs would use pools (lakes) of standing water to clean their hands between plays.

It was, I believe, the most water to ever fall on the Lehigh Valley in a single 24 hour period (10-13 inches, depending on where you happened to be).

This was probably the moment that any debate about synthetic surface ceased. Bruce now will proudly tell anyone within earshot that the new surface can handle up to 22 inches of water.

I almost tried driving up for that one, until the fraction of common sense that I have got the better of me...it was tough enough watching in the dry house on tv...:D

[Pards Rule]

Me too until I saw it was gonna be a torrent. Didnt get to see it on TV as I live in South Jersey (the non-Sopranos part of the state).

[RichH2]

While artificial to an extant might we for a teams recruiting NEEDS work off the teams 2-deep ,with some explanation from Andy,ngineer etc as to percieved area in need of repair

Team A loses 2 statring LBs 2 others from 2-deep not returning 4 spots open. Andy notes that best recruit prior year is returning from injury and expected to fill a slot leaving 3 open slots . If team fills them Bonus points

[carney2]

While artificial to an extant might we for a teams recruiting NEEDS work off the teams 2-deep ,with some explanation from Andy,ngineer etc as to percieved area in need of repair

Team A loses 2 statring LBs 2 others from 2-deep not returning 4 spots open. Andy notes that best recruit prior year is returning from injury and expected to fill a slot leaving 3 open slots . If team fills them Bonus points

All good stuff. My only comments at this early date are

1. Needs must be agreed to and published before recruiting classes are announced.

2. Who speaks for Holy Cross and even Bucknell, neither of which have a strong voice here?

[carney2]

Back to the "status quo" coments. DFW may be on firm ground. Consider the following statistics:

Order of finish and No. of Championships Since Joining the League
Key: (Joined/Left) Avg. Finish [No. of Championships, Incl. Ties]
1. LEHIGH (1986/) 2.0 [8]
2. COLGATE (1986/) 2.8 [5]
3. LAFAYETTE (1986/) 3.0 [6]
4. HOLY CROSS (1986/) 3.6 [5]
5. BUCKNELL (1986/) 3.8 [1]
6. FORDHAM (1989*/) 4.8 [1]
7. TOWSON (1997/2003) 5.3 [0]
8. DAVIDSON (1987/1988) 6.0 [0]
9. GEORGETOWN (2001/) 6.8 [0]

*Fordham did not play any League games in 1989 even though the League lists them as a member for that year. 1989 is therefore excluded from the statistics for Fordham.

Excluding the join/exit dates, here's the same data for the last 10 years:

1. COLGATE 1.8 [5]
2. LEHIGH 2.0 [6]
3. LAFAYETTE 3.7 [3]
4. BUCKNELL 4.3 [0]
5. FORDHAM 4.4 [1]
6. HOLY CROSS 5.0 [0]
7. TOWSON 5.3 [0]
8. GEORGETOWN 6.8 [0]

Status quo, thy name is Patsy. Those 5 Holy Cross championships all came in the 1st 6 years of League play (1986-1991). Since then, the "Big 3" have won all but 2. At the other end of the standings, it is worth noting that Lafayette and Lehigh have never finished last, while Colgate has been at the bottom only once (1995).

[colgate13]

Thanks for highlighting Colgate's dominance over the past decade carney! But man, do I EVER remember 1995. Horrible.

Just stopping by to say I think there will be more of the same this fall! :)

Seriously, just reading the thread and couldn't help myself...

[Pard4Life]

Thanks for highlighting Colgate's dominance over the past decade carney! But man, do I EVER remember 1995. Horrible.

Just stopping by to say I think there will be more of the same this fall! :)

Seriously, just reading the thread and couldn't help myself...

Why the "demise" in Colgate football? Your school image certainly has not been harmed.. in fact it has been enhanced.. word on your 'gate borad is that everyone is extremely worried about our stadium..

[Pard4Life]

Me too until I saw it was gonna be a torrent. Didnt get to see it on TV as I live in South Jersey (the non-Sopranos part of the state).

Looks like I am the only Pard warrior who was at the game! :D

Although I do admit, I wussed out in the second half and watched the game in the Kirby Center. In the 2nd, the 51 people probably went down to 5... I did not have heavy-duty rain gear....

..which I subsequently got that Christmas in case it ever happens again... it served me well at the Sacred Heart game though... dry as a bone..

[colgate13]

If a few people are worried about LC's beautiful new stadium, so be it. It's the cherry on top, but it is not going to win recruits over other PL schools IMHO. There are bigger things in play like coaching staff, playing time, the education itself, financial aid, etc. that make the decision.

But jealous of the field? Absolutely. Who wouldn't be? :)

[HoyaFan]

For those who enjoy watching video, it's nice to see GU provide tape on the majority of the incoming class.

http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/050407aaa.html

Also, a bonus piece on graduating senior defensive end Alex Buzbee detailing his signing with the Redskins.

http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/051507aaa.html

[ngineer]

Me too until I saw it was gonna be a torrent. Didnt get to see it on TV as I live in South Jersey (the non-Sopranos part of the state).

That was the same torrent I was in to watch the Holy Cross debacle. I was there in my rainsuit and bore the brunt for alma mater. Cannot recall a more pathetic attempt at playing the game by both squads since no one could move. It took a year and half for that field to recover. A 'quagmire' in the truest sense of the term. Despite the outcome and the acknowledgement that on an artificial turf we would likely have won that game, as well as last year's Albany fiasco, I still prefer the 'real' stuff. It aint football without some mud, dirt and/or grass stains...

[carney2]

Looks like I am the only Pard warrior who was at the game! :D

Although I do admit, I wussed out in the second half and watched the game in the Kirby Center. In the 2nd, the 51 people probably went down to 5... I did not have heavy-duty rain gear....

..which I subsequently got that Christmas in case it ever happens again... it served me well at the Sacred Heart game though... dry as a bone..

Hey!! I was there. Not at the beginning, mind you, since it took most of the 1st quarter to coax my pansy friends off their bar stools at the CHT. I stayed to the end, however, so one of the "5" was me.

[breezy]

I only visit this board occasionally but having read through many of the posts in this thread, I wanted to post only to put Holy Cross "on the board."

I certainly don't have the time or expertise to evaluate the incoming recruiting classes, but I am surprised at the low opinion of the HC recruits because I have some limited indirect information that the coaching staff feels they did very well. I also have firm belief that Gilmore has the program heading in the right direction.

Not that I want to give Patsy an excuse to spend more time along these lines, but I wonder if he has given any thoughts to evaluating last year's recruits and compared that to the contributions made by the frosh on each team last season. (An alternate idea would be to carry this forward in future years and see how valid the ratings are.)

I suspect some recruits that are "rated" will prove to be non-contributors, while some "non-rated" players will end up being very significant members of the team.

Whenever I visit this board, I am always impressed by the thoughtful and respectful discussion on the Patriot League threads.

I'm looking forward to the 2007 season.

[carney2]

I only visit this board occasionally but having read through many of the posts in this thread, I wanted to post only to put Holy Cross "on the board."

I certainly don't have the time or expertise to evaluate the incoming recruiting classes, but I am surprised at the low opinion of the HC recruits because I have some limited indirect information that the coaching staff feels they did very well. I also have firm belief that Gilmore has the program heading in the right direction.

Not that I want to give Patsy an excuse to spend more time along these lines, but I wonder if he has given any thoughts to evaluating last year's recruits and compared that to the contributions made by the frosh on each team last season. (An alternate idea would be to carry this forward in future years and see how valid the ratings are.)

I suspect some recruits that are "rated" will prove to be non-contributors, while some "non-rated" players will end up being very significant members of the team.

Whenever I visit this board, I am always impressed by the thoughtful and respectful discussion on the Patriot League threads.

I'm looking forward to the 2007 season.

All good comments and I think that I can speak for all if the "regulars" in that we are really happy to hear from someone who is interested in 'sader football. Your comments and opinions are most welcome. We have beaten 5 of these horses (Colgate, Fordham, Georgetown, Lafayette, Lehigh) to death (and then flipped ol' Dobbin over and beaten it some more), but we are a little light on Bucknell and Holy Cross input.

You make a number of good points. Comments:

"I also have firm belief that Gilmore has the program heading in the right direction." If the "proof is in the pudding," then you are correct. The last two years he has been a magician. There were, in my opinion, no other candidates for last year's Coach of the Year award.

"Not that I want to give Patsy an excuse to spend more time along these lines, but I wonder if he has given any thoughts to evaluating last year's recruits and compared that to the contributions made by the frosh on each team last season. (An alternate idea would be to carry this forward in future years and see how valid the ratings are.)" Patsy?! Oh well, I've been called worse - and often. Excellent points. Actually, you bring up something that I have in mind, but have been reluctant to make a public commitment because of the time commitments involved. I would like to take the 2007 rosters and grade each of the classes independently. Then we could make some comparisons to performance. There would be a lot of problems and difficulties, and it wouldn't be perfect. Still... As for carrying it forward, I think that many here consider that a "done deal."

"I suspect some recruits that are "rated" will prove to be non-contributors, while some "non-rated" players will end up being very significant members of the team." A given - particularly at this level of football which is bereft of "can't miss" 5-star recruits. In fact, Pard94, one of my fellow Lafingyet alums, has stated that this is borderline nonsense and that we should wait 4 years to see how it plays out. My response is that I don't have that much patience.

Good to hear from you.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not that I want to give Patsy an excuse to spend more time along these lines, but I wonder if he has given any thoughts to evaluating last year's recruits and compared that to the contributions made by the frosh on each team last season. (An alternate idea would be to carry this forward in future years and see how valid the ratings are.)

This might just be a nit, but it seems premature to judge a class after their freshman year. What you'd been looking for are special teams contributions, mostly, and starting freshmen could be a function of lack of depth more than anything (see: Bucknell QB situation, 2005, or Fordham QB John Skelton, last year.) After three years, I think, is when you see if your incoming class really paid off or not. This is especially true "in the trenches".

[bison137]

This might just be a nit, but it seems premature to judge a class after their freshman year. What you'd been looking for are special teams contributions, mostly, and starting freshmen could be a function of lack of depth more than anything (see: Bucknell QB situation, 2005, or Fordham QB John Skelton, last year.) After three years, I think, is when you see if your incoming class really paid off or not. This is especially true "in the trenches".


Yes, I think it's way too early to judge a class. However, if one were to go back, as suggested, and try to judge this past year's freshmen, I think Bucknell would thus far win in a landslide (at least partly due to need at various spots). The Bison had nine freshmen start games, with at least five starting most games. Seventeen frosh moved up to at least second on the depth chart at some point during the season, and a couple others were special teams regulars. The Bison ended up 3-3 in the PL and 6-5 overall.

Here's one example of how hard it is to judge these players based on rankings and HS achievements. Two of the three frosh cited by non-Bucknell posters as the ones that looked the best on paper did not get off the bench at all. One of these players originally committed to Navy, played for NAPS, had 2 stars from Scout, had great size for his position, and yet was not one of the seventeen who ever cracked the depth chart.

As a whole, some ranked the Bison class as the worst in the PL. As I said, it's way too early to tell, but I'd be very surprised if this class is not in the top three when the dust settles.

[breezy]

Carney --

My use of "Patsy" was obviously incorrect -- my apologies.

But I am in awe of the amount of time some of the regular PL posters devote to study of the smallest detail. I have a pretty good knowledge of the HC roster (especially during the season), but I can't hope to match your level of detail throughout the league.

[Go...gate]

Thanks for highlighting Colgate's dominance over the past decade carney! But man, do I EVER remember 1995. Horrible.

Just stopping by to say I think there will be more of the same this fall! :)

Seriously, just reading the thread and couldn't help myself...

How about 1986-95? Two winning seasons and perennially near the bottom of the PL.

[carney2]

This might just be a nit, but it seems premature to judge a class after their freshman year. What you'd been looking for are special teams contributions, mostly, and starting freshmen could be a function of lack of depth more than anything (see: Bucknell QB situation, 2005, or Fordham QB John Skelton, last year.) After three years, I think, is when you see if your incoming class really paid off or not. This is especially true "in the trenches".

Not only "premature," but, as you point out, very difficult. My preliminary thought is to stack up the 4 years that are on the roster in any given year, weight them, somehow, in favor of the juniors and seniors, and see if the ratings/predictions are verified by on the field results. Haven't really given this adequate thought, but each year's Patsy Ratings would need to be capable of feeding directly into "the future" so that it doesn't have to be re-done.

[Pards Rule]

Looks like I am the only Pard warrior who was at the game! :D

Although I do admit, I wussed out in the second half and watched the game in the Kirby Center. In the 2nd, the 51 people probably went down to 5... I did not have heavy-duty rain gear....

..which I subsequently got that Christmas in case it ever happens again... it served me well at the Sacred Heart game though... dry as a bone..

Well, I was one of probably a few hundred left at the end of the bone-chilling 1987 final game at Taylor Stadium (won by Lehigh but both teams suked that year). What was the wind chill - 25 below??

[RichH2]

Carney,
Thought you were done for this year,eh? Updated LU roster just out. Seems we have lost 2 rated recruits. Shaw looks to be getting a Pac-10 track schollie. Rackley the OG from Ga just off. No info yet as to whether a mistake or he is going elsewhere.

[bison137]

Carney,
Thought you were done for this year,eh? Updated LU roster just out. Seems we have lost 2 rated recruits. Shaw looks to be getting a Pac-10 track schollie. Rackley the OG from Ga just off. No info yet as to whether a mistake or he is going elsewhere.


Rackley is on the roster on the LU site.

[RichH2]

Rackley was indeed a mistake. He is on roster.

[RichH2]

Now Shaw is back on roster also. I 'm going to follow LFN's sage advice and just wait to see who show's up in August

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now Shaw is back on roster also. I 'm going to follow LFN's sage advice and just wait to see who show's up in August

xlolx xlolx xlolx Please don't do that Rich, I need your sharp eyes to point out roster developments!!

Anyone notice the "NT/OT" next to Charles Brallier's name. xcoolx I may just write a whole blog posting on that alone! xlolx xlolx xlolx

[RichH2]

I did not realize that he was the 7th ranked OT in Cal. Given the way Coen is stockpiling linemen hard to say which way the kid will go. Coach did say earlier that he expected a couple of the frosh to be on the 2 deep OL. DL is ,with the 3 man line, is about 4 deep, unfortunately some of the dl are better suited to a 4 man set up.
How is your recruit review going?

[DFW HOYA]

The Hoyas' roster is still listed with the 2006 team, but it should be updated soon.

http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/gu-m-footbl-mtt.html

[ngineer]

xlolx xlolx xlolx Please don't do that Rich, I need your sharp eyes to point out roster developments!!

Anyone notice the "NT/OT" next to Charles Brallier's name. xcoolx I may just write a whole blog posting on that alone! xlolx xlolx xlolx

Did I read correctly that Brallier is coming in at 330lbs?!xeekx

[RichH2]

Yup. Clerge up 2 inches and 10 lbs, Winnet up 2 inches and 295