Ivy League postseason?

[aceinthehole]

From the New Haven Register:


“As a group, every year we’ve voted unanimously for the playoffs,” Yale football coach Tony Reno said on Saturday. “There’s a decision made at a higher level that keeps us where we are. I would love to be playing today. Our players would love to have the opportunity to play against the best teams in the country. That’s what it’s all about, right?”


Yale, had it been allowed to participate, likely would have drawn Central Connecticut State in the first round of the FCS tournament, an intriguing in-state matchup that might have attracted a nice crowd to the Yale Bowl on an otherwise football-free Thanksgiving Saturday.

Tom Beckett, Yale’s athletic director, is among the advocates for a pre-Christmas bowl game pitting the Ivy League champ against a Patriot League or Mid-Eastern Athletic League opponent at a warm-weather site like Orlando. Some in the league like the idea. Others prefer to focus the fight on the FCS tournament.

Yale and Harvard have an advantage over the rest of the league, playing each other annually in what is essentially its own bowl game, drawing national interest and massive crowds each fall. Still, the chance to play for a national championship would never diminish “The Game.”

http://www.nhregister.com/sports/article/Sunday-Gravy-Ivy-League-football-teams-deserve-12383540.php

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yale would have had a chance to advance this year. Keep up the fight Yale!

[NDSUtk]

That sucks for the coaches who vote every year to participate but get vetoed by the AD/Presidents.

[TheKingpin28]

That sucks for the coaches who vote every year to participate but get vetoed by the AD/Presidents.

But they have no problem playing in March Madness though...

[cx500d]

Its a damn shame.

[bonarae]

Yale keeps on fighting... what the other Ivies have literally ducked on.

[mmiller_34]

It would be great to see the Ivy League participate and become relevant again.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

At least this shows that the Ivy League is not afraid or there's a superiority complex. The coaches, kids and in some cases schools want to participate. I'm pretty sure Princeton (Surace) is another one who has said they'd like to play in the postseason. I could see Penn being on board too. They're a jock Ivy. Yale would be a threat to reach the semifinals. They're that good!

This all comes down to Harvard imo. Because of who they are and the power they decide the leagues fate. It's been clear for years based on scheduling they want nothing to do with FCS on a national level.

[youwouldno]

It would be great to see the Ivy League participate and become relevant again.

They haven't been relevant for what, 75 years or so? The Ivy League leadership really just doesn't like football at all, and to make matters worse, they don't see FCS as "relevant" in the scheme of things.

There's no legitimate argument against the Ivies' participation in the playoffs, but since they can't state the true reasons for their opposition, they provide the best excuses they can.

[Laker]

But they have no problem playing in March Madness though...

Complete hypocrites in the administrations. I hate this "holier than thou" attitude that some pointy heads have when it comes to football. Were they always the last ones picked in PE class? Did some gridder take away their girlfriend? Did one of them get an atomic wedgie?

[TheKingpin28]

Complete hypocrites in the administrations. I hate this "holier than thou" attitude that some pointy heads have when it comes to football. Were they always the last ones picked in PE class? Did some gridder take away their girlfriend? Did one of them get an atomic wedgie?

They wonder why they receive so much crap. These are all highly probable reasons.

[cx500d]

Complete hypocrites in the administrations. I hate this "holier than thou" attitude that some pointy heads have when it comes to football. Were they always the last ones picked in PE class? Did some gridder take away their girlfriend? Did one of them get an atomic wedgie?

Yes, Yes, & Yes

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

They wonder why they receive so much crap. These are all highly probable reasons.

I don't think every IL administration thinks like that. Princeton and Penn have always had a pro sports/jock feel to it. Princeton is a little like the Stanford of the East. All their athletic teams are at least pretty good. I really think it's Harvard that has its head stuck in the mud which screwing the more forward thinking administrations.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Unfortunately, only death or retirement is likely to change Yale's chances at participating in the postseason. The path to any postseason goes through their President, and I don't think he's for it at all.

"University President Peter Salovey, whose presidency is in its third year, said he has not been part of any discussions about a football postseason in the Ivy League." This was in 2016.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/03/04/ivy-league-football-postseason-still-unlikely/

[bonarae]

The never-ending story of the Ivy Presidents' reluctance to changing their unified stance against the playoffs is still there.

I believe we will all die before the Ivies participate in the playoffs... xbawlingx

[Son of Eli]

Unfortunately, only death or retirement is likely to change Yale's chances at participating in the postseason. The path to any postseason goes through their President, and I don't think he's for it at all.

"University President Peter Salovey, whose presidency is in its third year, said he has not been part of any discussions about a football postseason in the Ivy League." This was in 2016.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/03/04/ivy-league-football-postseason-still-unlikely/


This comment shows that he is open to discussing it which is a positive change. The stock answer used to be no, with a lame excuse to follow usually revolving around the Yale-Harvard game, final exams, or that Yale couldn't compete at that level. So this is progress.

President Salovey is far more supportive of athletics, including football, than his predessor Levin. Levin couldn't find the Bowl if you handed him a map. I never saw him there once. I see Salovey there regularly, enthusiastically leading the cheering. He has been a transformational president at Yale, expanding the university with an additional 800 undergraduates, so he may yet decide to provide leadership on this issue as well.

I agree with Go Lehigh TU Owl that the strongest opposition comes from Harvard. However, it doesn't need to be unaminous. Its a super majority, six I beleive. So if Salovey decides to champion it I think it passes over Harvard's objections.

[Neighbor2]

You know, that IVY vs. Patriot League champions bowl could be a great compromise. I happen to think it would be a very marketable game, too. This way, BOTH Ivy and Patriot can continue to project their 'superiority' over standard schools that, in their mind, set aside academic focus to participate in the FCS Playoffs. I mean, how many elitist alumni want to return post season mixing it up with state school types? Networking, cocktails, fine dining, you know.

Play the game in Metro New York City and make a real spectacle of it. Lots of corporate-types would partake in fear of being left out. Network coverage and advertising sponsors galore. Think of the possibilities to showcase everything BUT football. Perfect !

[Model Citizen]

From the New Haven Register:





http://www.nhregister.com/sports/article/Sunday-Gravy-Ivy-League-football-teams-deserve-12383540.php

As much fun as San Diego's win was yesterday, playing Yale next weekend would have been better.

The Patriot League added scholarships for the playoffs. The PFL is still non-scholarship and the best postseason match for the Ivy League.

[dgtw]

Saying you haven’t been part of discussions is a safe answer. It means it has never been brought up, not that he is 100% against it.

Seeing as how sending the Ivy champ to the playoffs is irrelevant to half the league, why should most of them care? Let the champ decide on their own if they want to go. Let them take the PR and recruiting hit if they decline the bid.

I agree it is hypocritical for them to participate in other postseasons but not football.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DFW HOYA]

As much fun as San Diego's win was yesterday, playing Yale next weekend would have been better.

The Patriot League added scholarships for the playoffs. The PFL is still npn-scholarship and the best postseason match for the Ivy League.

Except that a meeting in late December between Yale and San Diego probably draws about 3,000 to the Del Boca Vista Phase II Bowl, which is probably why the Yale AD threw in the MEAC as an option.

How about a better idea: invite the highest ranked team in the apocryphal "Magnolia League" not going to a bowl to play--that's a list of so-called Southern Ivies which includes Duke, Wake, Vanderbilt, SMU, Rice, and Tulane. This year's entrant would be Vanderbilt (5-7). They would bring fans and some level of attention beyond the Ivy message board and would probably win by four touchdowns, but that's why they play the game.

[Son of Eli]

Except that a meeting in late December between Yale and San Diego probably draws about 3,000 to the Del Boca Vista Phase II Bowl, which is probably why the Yale AD threw in the MEAC as an option.

How about a better idea: invite the highest ranked team in the apocryphal "Magnolia League" not going to a bowl to play--that's a list of so-called Southern Ivies which includes Duke, Wake, Vanderbilt, SMU, Rice, and Tulane. This year's entrant would be Vanderbilt (5-7). They would bring fans and some level of attention beyond the Ivy message board and would probably win by four touchdowns, but that's why they play the game.


I love that idea, but would it be allowed under NCAA rules?

[Son of Eli]

As much fun as San Diego's win was yesterday, playing Yale next weekend would have been better.

The Patriot League added scholarships for the playoffs. The PFL is still non-scholarship and the best postseason match for the Ivy League.

Princeton-San Diego was a good game this year and it drew over 10,000.

[Son of Eli]

This year's entrant would be Vanderbilt (5-7). They would bring fans and some level of attention beyond the Ivy message board and would probably win by four touchdowns, but that's why they play the game.

Massey predicts a much closer game: Vanderbilt 28-Yale 21.

https://www.masseyratings.com/game.php?s0=295489&t0=Vanderbilt&h=0&s1=295489&t1=Yale+

[Green26]

They haven't been relevant for what, 75 years or so? The Ivy League leadership really just doesn't like football at all, and to make matters worse, they don't see FCS as "relevant" in the scheme of things.

There's no legitimate argument against the Ivies' participation in the playoffs, but since they can't state the true reasons for their opposition, they provide the best excuses they can.

A history lesson.

in 1970, Dartmouth won the Lambert Trophy (best team in East). Penn St. was 2d that year (and it's running backs were Franco Harris and Lydell Mitchell). In 1971, Penn St. won the Lambert Trophy. Dartmouth was 2d. Note the other Ivy teams listed in the '71 voting, as well as the absence of Pitt and West Virginia and the rankings of BC and Syracuse.

Dartmouth was 14th in the nation in final polls in 1970. The Dartmouth/Yale game had 61,000 people in the Bowl. Ed Marinaro lead the nation in rushing in '70 and '71, and was runner up for the Heisman. Calvin Hill and Dick Jauron were running backs for Yale during this time. Hill was NFL rookie of the year. Dartmouth won the Lambert Trophy twice in the 60's too. Maybe Princeton too.

"Penn State which is riding a 15‐game winning streak that includes 10 games this. season was the unanimous choice of the eight‐man selection committee of sports reporters and broadcasters ....Dartmouth, which shares the Ivy League title with Cornell, finished second in the voting, which is based upon 10 points for first place nine for second and so on down Dartmouth the undefeated champion of the Ivy League a year ago won the 1970 Lambert Trophy to break the string of three in a row by Penn State. Boston College was third in yesterday's vote followed by Cornell Temple Columbia Villanova West Virginia and Army There was a tie for 10th between Harvard and Syracuse."

http://www.nytimes.com/1971/11/23/archives/penn-state-wins-lambert-trophy-unbeaten-lions-get-award-for-record.html?_r=0

[Model Citizen]

Except that a meeting in late December between Yale and San Diego probably draws about 3,000 to the Del Boca Vista Phase II Bowl, which is probably why the Yale AD threw in the MEAC as an option.

Late December? No. Before Christmas.

And he did not suggest any particular conference, much less the MEAC. The writer's original words were "sister conference." The register is misquoting its own article.


How about a better idea: invite the highest ranked team in the apocryphal "Magnolia League" not going to a bowl to play--that's a list of so-called Southern Ivies...This year's entrant would be Vanderbilt (5-7).

Vandy has been on the brink of getting kicked out of the SEC before. Risking a loss to a non-scholarship I-AA would be beyond stupidity.

[WestCoastAggie]

A Howard vs Yale Bowl game would have drawn very well this year + brought in tv/streaming viewers.

[youwouldno]

No other league stands to gain anything from playing a charade with the Ivy League to justify their non-participation in the FCS post-season.

[GAD]

I love that idea, but would it be allowed under NCAA rules?
No

[PantherRob82]

No

Why not? They’ve let 5 win teams in a bowl before.

[ngineer]

As much fun as San Diego's win was yesterday, playing Yale next weekend would have been better.

The Patriot League added scholarships for the playoffs. The PFL is still non-scholarship and the best postseason match for the Ivy League.

The scholarships has actually helped even the playing field with the Ivies. Due to their grant in aid policies, a great chunk of their athletes get "scholarships"..and virtual full-rides if their family incomes are less than $150,000. The schools endowments are so big they can afford that write-off.

I think a 'bowl game' between the IL and PL champ in Yankee Stadium would be excellent. Unless the PL changes its policies as to the AI and red-shirting, I don't see us being able to compete on a regular basis at a national level. Yes, we will have the occasional team that "makes some noise" in the playoffs, but in the grand scheme, I think a game the would likely fill Yankee Stadium with a lot of pizzazz around it is worth exploring. Still doesn't preclude PL teams from playing other FCS schools as part of the OOC games which can create good fodder for the barrooms in comparing schools.

[Go...gate]

A bowl between the Ivy and Patriot Leagues makes sense, but I would prefer the Ivy and Patriot in the playoffs along with most of the other Division participants.

[WestCoastAggie]

A bowl game double-header the Saturday before XMas would be huge for FCS Football.

The Celebration Bowl would be at 12 Noon on ABC and the Ivy/Patriot League Bowl in Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park would be at 3:30 on NBC afterwards.

[GAD]

Why not? They’ve let 5 win teams in a bowl before.
NCAA does not allow cross division post season play FCS vs FBS or FCS vs D2 is not allowed

[Herder]

At least this shows that the Ivy League is not afraid or there's a superiority complex. The coaches, kids and in some cases schools want to participate. I'm pretty sure Princeton (Surace) is another one who has said they'd like to play in the postseason. I could see Penn being on board too. They're a jock Ivy. Yale would be a threat to reach the semifinals. They're that good!

This all comes down to Harvard imo. Because of who they are and the power they decide the leagues fate. It's been clear for years based on scheduling they want nothing to do with FCS on a national level.

It shows that the superiority complex is at the presidential level.

[PantherRob82]

NCAA does not allow cross division post season play FCS vs FBS or FCS vs D2 is not allowed

Not doubting you, but do you have a source?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

NCAA does not allow cross division post season play FCS vs FBS or FCS vs D2 is not allowed

I know with certainty in 1994 there was some dealings made in order to get Alcorn State/Steve McNair into a bowl game. It didn't happen but there was an honest attempt.

Hard to believe that was 23 years ago. Will we ever a FCS player be Heisman finalist again?

[aceinthehole]

IMO - one of the biggest problem with a Ivy-Patriot bowl game is their schedules are already so intermingled, the odds are very high it becomes a regular season rematch. That isn't going to draw much interest from anyone in the Ivy League.Take this year, the hypothetical IL-PL Bowl Game would be rematch of Yale-Lehigh. I will let the Ivy/PL fans do the research and determine how many times in the past 5 years would the game be a rematch.

Another huge obstacle would be the need for an Ivy tiebreaker. Right now the league has co-champions and they are equal. Put a bowl bid at stake and the league would have to have tiebreaker criteria, something they've never had before.

I think this is all just idle talk, the Ivy football season will end with "The Game" as long as everyone on this board is alive.

[cx500d]

...and then pass out the participation trophies.

[Lion1983]

How about the Ivy league champ, vs the highest ranked FCS school to be left out of the playoffs?

[TheKingpin28]

...and then pass out the participation trophies.

Wouldn't be an IVY League school if there was not a safe space where everyone won and got a trophy. xthumbsupx

[TheKingpin28]

How about the Ivy league champ, vs the highest ranked FCS school to be left out of the playoffs?

So I can watch some 6-5 team (sometimes 7-4/8-3) go up against the Ivy League. I'd rather watch the Celebration Bowl and listen to Jay Walker commentate for a quarter (anything more and I'd have to break my TV) then watch that game.

[Lion1983]

So I can watch some 6-5 team (sometimes 7-4/8-3) go up against the Ivy League. I'd rather watch the Celebration Bowl and listen to Jay Walker commentate for a quarter (anything more and I'd have to break my TV) then watch that game.

I would watch Yale vs 7-4 Montana, or a team everyone said shouldn't have been left out..

[Bisonoline]

But they have no problem playing in March Madness though...

Kind of negates their "loss of class room time and theyre academics are more important argument" doesnt it.

But march madness means they get a check. Theyre nothing more than hypocritical sellouts.

[Model Citizen]

If Ivy Leaguers wanted to play Montana, they would already be playing Montana.

After the Patriot went to 60 scholarships, the Ivies said they wanted more non-scholarship opponents. That puts most of this thread's comments into the realm of fantasy.

[Model Citizen]

Just my opinion...the Ivy League wants to compete for top level national championships in every sport. But the NCAA relegated them to I-AA years ago.

So football is different in their view. They have withdrawn into their own world, and they will continue to give the badfinger to the NCAA--by shunning the playoffs.

When D-I football was subdivided, most of the current FCS membership was in D-II. Will the Ivy League break 65 years of tradition to compete for a second-level championship with those schools? Nope.

[TheKingpin28]

Kind of negates their "loss of class room time and theyre academics are more important argument" doesnt it.

But march madness means they get a check. Theyre nothing more than hypocritical sellouts.

No one will call them out for it, but if they can exploit their athlete's to increase their wallets, then they are all for it. Imagine if they said they would not play in a female sports championship. The outrage that would occur would feed the beast for eons.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Personally I think an academic bowl between the Ivy League and Patriot League would be a big mistake, because it would take them out of the FCS playoffs.

The best FCS postseason is a diverse FCS postseason. It is state schools going against private schools and HBCUs and Harvard's and Yale's all participating in it. At its absolute best, it would be some years, Yale beating JMU, and in other years, NCAT beating Jacksonville State, and other years, Montana winning the national championship by beating San Diego, North Dakota State, Grambling, and Sam Houston State. When the road to the championship goes through a bunch of interesting teams, people will tune in to see that championship.

I wouldn't want Lehigh's highest aspiration to be to beat whoever wins the Ivy League - especially in a bowl of dubious interest nationally. Lehigh (and to an extent the whole Patriot League) should be aspiring to becoming the best most competitive program they can be on the national stage within the FCS rules (and the PL's academic rules).

[Green26]

Just my opinion...the Ivy League wants to compete for top level national championships in every sport. But the NCAA relegated them to I-AA years ago.

So football is different in their view. They have withdrawn into their own world, and they will continue to give the badfinger to the NCAA--by shunning the playoffs.

When D-I football was subdivided, most of the current FCS membership was in D-II. Will the Ivy League break 65 years of tradition to compete for a second-level championship with those schools? Nope.

I believe the Ivies chose I-AA because all of the schools didn't have big enough stadiums.

[Green26]

If Ivy Leaguers wanted to play Montana, they would already be playing Montana.

After the Patriot went to 60 scholarships, the Ivies said they wanted more non-scholarship opponents. That puts most of this thread's comments into the realm of fantasy.

Montana and Dartmouth have talked several times about playing a game or a home and home. The late start of the Ivy season and the longer term scheduling by Dartmouth make finding an acceptable date difficult.

The Ivies didn't have really strong teams this year, as they often have had in the past. Yale had a nice season, but they lost to Dartmouth, whom I saw on tv several times and in person. Dartmouth was good but not great.

[Bisonoline]

Personally I think an academic bowl between the Ivy League and Patriot League would be a big mistake, because it would take them out of the FCS playoffs.

The best FCS postseason is a diverse FCS postseason. It is state schools going against private schools and HBCUs and Harvard's and Yale's all participating in it. At its absolute best, it would be some years, Yale beating JMU, and in other years, NCAT beating Jacksonville State, and other years, Montana winning the national championship by beating San Diego, North Dakota State, Grambling, and Sam Houston State. When the road to the championship goes through a bunch of interesting teams, people will tune in to see that championship.

I wouldn't want Lehigh's highest aspiration to be to beat whoever wins the Ivy League - especially in a bowl of dubious interest nationally. Lehigh (and to an extent the whole Patriot League) should be aspiring to becoming the best most competitive program they can be on the national stage within the FCS rules (and the PL's academic rules).

We finally agree on something.

[Lion1983]

Just my opinion...the Ivy League wants to compete for top level national championships in every sport. But the NCAA relegated them to I-AA years ago.

So football is different in their view. They have withdrawn into their own world, and they will continue to give the badfinger to the NCAA--by shunning the playoffs.

When D-I football was subdivided, most of the current FCS membership was in D-II. Will the Ivy League break 65 years of tradition to compete for a second-level championship with those schools? Nope.

No, they chose to be in FCS (1AA at the time) at least that's what it says in the Ivy league history section. Most all schools at the time that was in NCAA had a choice. They split first to University division (D1) and College division (D2) then some wanted to move everything but football to University division so they had to make another split. And they still had a choice. So D1, D1AA and D2 was created.

[Model Citizen]

You need to brush up on your football history, especially regarding I-A attendance requirements.

[Go Green]

The Ivies didn't have really strong teams this year, as they often have had in the past. Yale had a nice season, but they lost to Dartmouth, whom I saw on tv several times and in person. Dartmouth was good but not great.

By one. In Hanover. To a team that finished 8-2. On a go-ahead touchdown pass with 30 seconds left. And after having a legit touchdown waved off when the ref (incorrectly) ruled that the receiver was out of bounds.

You're tough to impress. :)

[Go Green]

You need to brush up on your football history, especially regarding I-A attendance requirements.

Every few years we have a huge debate on the Ivy board as to how the I-AA split went down. We all agree that it was I-A requirements and that the qualifying Ivies elected to join the non-qualifying Ivies in I-AA.

But we disagree whether the issue was stadium capacity (four Ivies would have qualified for I-A) or attendance (only Yale would have qualified). We cite different sources each supporting whatever conclusion we believe.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Every few years we have a huge debate on the Ivy board as to how the I-AA split went down. We all agree that it was I-A requirements and that the qualifying Ivies elected to join the non-qualifying Ivies in I-AA.

But we disagree whether the issue was stadium capacity (four Ivies would have qualified for I-A) or attendance (only Yale would have qualified). We cite different sources each supporting whatever conclusion we believe.

There was a time when the attendance requirements seemed to really mean something. If they could peer into the future in the early 1980s and see how the NCAA would essentially be ignoring it by the 2010s, they might have decided to go I-A.

Imagining telling those guys that by 2015 Coastal Carolina would be granted FBS membership with a stadium that accommodated only 12,000 fans, max, at the time it was granted.

[WileECoyote06]

Personally I think an academic bowl between the Ivy League and Patriot League would be a big mistake, because it would take them out of the FCS playoffs.

The best FCS postseason is a diverse FCS postseason. It is state schools going against private schools and HBCUs and Harvard's and Yale's all participating in it. At its absolute best, it would be some years, Yale beating JMU, and in other years, NCAT beating Jacksonville State, and other years, Montana winning the national championship by beating San Diego, North Dakota State, Grambling, and Sam Houston State. When the road to the championship goes through a bunch of interesting teams, people will tune in to see that championship. People already ignore the first two rounds. What difference is the addition of the SWAC, MEAC and Ivy League going to make, that is of benefit to those schools/conferences?

Especially compared to what a potential bowl game might offer?

[Go Green]

There was a time when the attendance requirements seemed to really mean something. If they could peer into the future in the early 1980s and see how the NCAA would essentially be ignoring it by the 2010s, they might have decided to go I-A.

Imagining telling those guys that by 2015 Coastal Carolina would be granted FBS membership with a stadium that accommodated only 12,000 fans, max, at the time it was granted.

I think this is correct, although the Ivy Presidents probably could be forgiven for taking the NCAA at its word regarding attendance figures in 1982...

And count me in the camp as believing that it was attendance figures, rather than stadium capacity, that was the I-A requirement. If it was stadium capacity, Cal Tech would have qualified for I-A status (they used to play in the Rose Bowl).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People already ignore the first two rounds. What difference is the addition of the SWAC, MEAC and Ivy League going to make, that is of benefit to those schools/conferences?

Especially compared to what a potential bowl game might offer?

If you say "what is the difference the SWAC, MEAC, and Ivy League going to make because they can't win the NCAA Championship," that should also apply to men's hoops, correct?

The MEAC/SWAC/Celebration Bowl's coup is convincing ESPN to fork over a ton of money to host and promote an HBCU Bowl - to their immense credit, they have done so. And many HBCU's need that money. I get that.

The FCS NCAA championship itself is enhanced when every team and every conference is involved. Imagine what it might be able to do if ESPN (or a higher bidder) gives the playoffs the funding and promotion it deserves. The issue is, IMO, that the NCAA and ESPN fails to recognize what it actually has, and what it can become.

[WileECoyote06]

If you say "what is the difference the SWAC, MEAC, and Ivy League going to make because they can't win the NCAA Championship," that should also apply to men's hoops, correct?

The MEAC/SWAC/Celebration Bowl's coup is convincing ESPN to fork over a ton of money to host and promote an HBCU Bowl - to their immense credit, they have done so. And many HBCU's need that money. I get that.

The FCS NCAA championship itself is enhanced when every team and every conference is involved. Imagine what it might be able to do if ESPN (or a higher bidder) gives the playoffs the funding and promotion it deserves. The issue is, IMO, that the NCAA and ESPN fails to recognize what it actually has, and what it can become.

Fair point. A major difference being conferences/teams get money for advancing to and through, the NCAA men's basketball tournament. Also there is a higher possibility of an upset in basketball as opposed to football.

Disney/ESPN came to us. If Disney/ESPN came to the Ivy League and Patriot League with an attractive offer; your presidents would seriously consider it as well. Anything else right now is wishful thinking. . . the NCAA and ESPN know exactly what it has. They also know that no one really cares about it, ie the majority of FCS schools have regional, not national followings. If a higher bidder existed, the Oversight Committee would have already made changes.

[Model Citizen]

Every few years we have a huge debate on the Ivy board as to how the I-AA split went down. We all agree that it was I-A requirements and that the qualifying Ivies elected to join the non-qualifying Ivies in I-AA.

But we disagree whether the issue was stadium capacity (four Ivies would have qualified for I-A) or attendance (only Yale would have qualified). We cite different sources each supporting whatever conclusion we believe.

The NY Times came down on the side of four Ivies making the I-A cut...which I believe, based on 1981 stadium capacities.
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/05/sports/ivy-league-is-forced-to-lose-major-team-football-status.html

Interesting to see that most members of the Southland eventually found their way to I-A status (see Sun Belt and CUSA). As they left, the Southland replaced them with D-II schools that moved up to get on the basketball gravy train.

[Go Green]

The NY Times came down on the side of four Ivies making the I-A cut...which I believe, based on 1981 stadium capacities.
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/05/sports/ivy-league-is-forced-to-lose-major-team-football-status.html



Richard Goldstein said in his book that it was attendance requirements. He was clear that only Yale made the cut, and elected to join the other seven in I-AA.

https://www.amazon.com/Ivy-League-Autumns-Illustrated-Footballs/dp/0312146299

(If you want the exact page, I can look it up at home).

[bluehenbillk]

I didn't read through all 7 pages but it all comes down to 2 reasons why it'll never happen.

1- FCS is third-level football. In every other sport the IVY competes at the top level, their schools from an academic level are top level, if it's not top level the people in charge there have a long way to be convinced otherwise.

2- It's about the company that you keep. IVY league teams that play in NCAA tournaments play more "name schools" than you'll commonly find in FCS football.

You may not like the reason(s), but those are the REAL reasons.....

[Model Citizen]

Richard Goldstein said in his book that it was attendance requirements. He was clear that only Yale made the cut, and elected to join the other seven in I-AA.

https://www.amazon.com/Ivy-League-Autumns-Illustrated-Footballs/dp/0312146299

(If you want the exact page, I can look it up at home).

Agreed on the attendance figures. But I really think it was either stadium capacity or home attendance. My memory could be wrong.

[Model Citizen]

In every other sport the IVY competes at the top level, their schools from an academic level are top level, if it's not top level the people in charge there have a long was to be convinced otherwise.

Yes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They also know that no one really cares about it, ie the majority of FCS schools have regional, not national followings. If a higher bidder existed, the Oversight Committee would have already made changes.

I seriously debate the "no one really cares about it" argument. And the reason a "higher bidder" doesn't exist is because the NCAA packaged up all their championships not called the NCAA Men's and Women's hoops tournament and packaged them as a unit to ESPN. IMVHO, it was an epic NCAA FAIL, as it wrapped up a bunch of tournaments with significant growing popularity and viewership (Frozen Four, Lacrosse championships, NCAA wrestling, and I'd also put in here the FCS National Championship) and gave it to ESPN for very little. ESPN made out like bandits to get all this content.

The issue is for ESPN is they already have a near-monopoly on December college football. They have tons of minor bowls to promote and compete and show on their stations, not to mention conference championships. So hyping up the FCS cannibalizes their own product.

Now imagine if the NCAA had opens up the bidding for the FCS playoffs, and FOX or CBS gets that content, and it's their only college football content, and it's largely going up against the Bahamas Bowl. Suddenly, its value doubles overnight.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I didn't read through all 7 pages but it all comes down to 2 reasons why it'll never happen.

1- FCS is third-level football. In every other sport the IVY competes at the top level, their schools from an academic level are top level, if it's not top level the people in charge there have a long way to be convinced otherwise.

2- It's about the company that you keep. IVY league teams that play in NCAA tournaments play more "name schools" than you'll commonly find in FCS football.

You may not like the reason(s), but those are the REAL reasons.....

Cornell really must be interested, then, in keeping the company of Longwood, since they're playing each other in hoops at Longwood on 12/16.

Longwood has a 72.9% acceptance rate, in case you were wondering.

[Sader87]

I'm nearly certain the criteria trotted out in 1981 for 1-A status was: a 30,000+ stadium and a 17,000 average attendance.

Yale had this (Harvard might have, not sure)...the other Ivies didn't have one or the other (or both) at the time.

Holy Cross came up short at the time too (25K stadium...probably 13,14K avg attendance).

Fact of the matter, the Ivies and both Colgate and HC were essentially 1-AA (though it didn't exist at the time) during the period they were still 1-A (1972-1981)....they were all playing against each other or Yankee Conference (D2 then 1-AA in 1978) schools for the most part during that era.

[aceinthehole]

The N.Y. Times article cited was very clear: the I-A criteria was capacity OR attendance.


The schools in Division I-A voted that its members must fulfill one of two requirements - an average home attendance of 17,000 over the last four years or a home stadium capacity of 30,000.
...
Actually, four of the Ivy League teams meet one or both of the requirements, but must go with their four sister schools into Division I-AA if they want to maintain a formal football league. All eight Ivy League athletic directors were present for the vote and said they would stay together. The four Ivy League teams that qualify with big enough stadiums are Penn, Princeton, Yale and Harvard. Yale and Harvard also meet the attendance requirement. The other four are Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth.

[Sader87]

It's interesting....the Ivies were actually pretty weak (on the field) outside of Yale by 1981. Harvard and Brown were OK at that time but most Ivy programs were a mess by the early 1980s. Penn picked it up after 1981 but the league was relatively weak overall at that point.

As I said earlier...the Ivies were really only 1-A in name only by the late 70s/early 80s.

[Green26]

It's interesting....the Ivies were actually pretty weak (on the field) outside of Yale by 1981. Harvard and Brown were OK at that time but most Ivy programs were a mess by the early 1980s. Penn picked it up after 1981 but the league was relatively weak overall at that point.

As I said earlier...the Ivies were really only 1-A in name only by the late 70s/early 80s.

It wasn't I-A until I-AA was created. It was still just Division I in late 70''s/early 80's.

[Model Citizen]

I-A and I-AA were created in 1978. Mandatory moves to I-AA, based on attendance/stadium capacity, happened after four years (following the '81 season).

[Go Green]

The N.Y. Times article cited was very clear: the I-A criteria was capacity OR attendance.

I know that they said, but it sounds wrong. If it were capacity or attendance, then Cal Tech would have qualified for I-A status.

Common senses suggests that it was attendance, and capacity may or may not have also been a requirement. (Personally, I don't understand why capacity was an issue at all. If the NCAA was going to mandate a 22,000 average attendance--who cares whether the stadium was sold out every game or only a quarter full?).

The bolded part about the four Ivies meeting "one or both of the requirements" is accurate. But only Yale actually met both. And that's the essence of the biennial (or so) debate on the Ivy Board whether one or four Ivy teams qualified for I-A status in 1981.

[Go Green]

but most Ivy programs were a mess by the early 1980s. Penn picked it up after 1981 but the league was relatively weak overall at that point.

.

Well, the Ivy adopted the AI in the early 1980s. According to former Dartmouth coach Joe Yukica, the Ivy schools were given five years to get into compliance with their respective AI levels. Yale and Dartmouth did so immediately and both programs went into a nosedive then (I'll bet Columbia did the same thing).

Penn waited until the last possible moment to implement their AI, and didn't see a dropoff in talent until the later 1980s.

[Model Citizen]

I know that they said, but it sounds wrong. If it were capacity or attendance, then Cal Tech would have qualified for I-A status.

They didn't have the door open for everyone. Just the schools that had D-I football at the time.

[Go Green]

They didn't have the door open for everyone. Just the schools that had D-I football at the time.

I'm still having a hard time believing that capacity itself sufficed. If Columbia had contracted to play their home games at Yankee Stadium or Shea, they wouldn't have drawn much better than the mid-four figures they were pulling in at Baker Field in that era.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, the Ivy adopted the AI in the early 1980s. According to former Dartmouth coach Joe Yukica, the Ivy schools were given five years to get into compliance with their respective AI levels. Yale and Dartmouth did so immediately and both programs went into a nosedive then (I'll bet Columbia did the same thing).

Penn waited until the last possible moment to implement their AI, and didn't see a dropoff in talent until the later 1980s.

To clarify that was the old AI without bands and a floor, I believe. Like many athletic administrative endeavors, it was put in place without really thinking of its impacts on the field or whether it was truly fair, and later it was amended, but the damage was done.

[Go Green]

To clarify that was the old AI without bands and a floor, I believe. Like many athletic administrative endeavors, it was put in place without really thinking of its impacts on the field or whether it was truly fair, and later it was amended, but the damage was done.

Also worth mentioning in the story is that Penn got a reputation in this era of having lax admission standards for athletes. Princeton was especially critical of Penn in this regard.

https://www.si.com/vault/1993/11/15/129886/penn-and-needles-their-academics-belittled-the-quakers-came-up-big-against-princeton-in-the-ivy-leagues-showcase-game

[walliver]

I seriously debate the "no one really cares about it" argument. And the reason a "higher bidder" doesn't exist is because the NCAA packaged up all their championships not called the NCAA Men's and Women's hoops tournament and packaged them as a unit to ESPN. IMVHO, it was an epic NCAA FAIL, as it wrapped up a bunch of tournaments with significant growing popularity and viewership (Frozen Four, Lacrosse championships, NCAA wrestling, and I'd also put in here the FCS National Championship) and gave it to ESPN for very little. ESPN made out like bandits to get all this content.

The issue is for ESPN is they already have a near-monopoly on December college football. They have tons of minor bowls to promote and compete and show on their stations, not to mention conference championships. So hyping up the FCS cannibalizes their own product.

Now imagine if the NCAA had opens up the bidding for the FCS playoffs, and FOX or CBS gets that content, and it's their only college football content, and it's largely going up against the Bahamas Bowl. Suddenly, its value doubles overnight.

Round 1 of FCS competes against "Rivalry Weekend"
Round 2 of FCS competes against conference championship game weekend
It is not until week 3 that there is no major competition. Unfortunately, most major sports broadcasters would prefer big time college basketball. Fox or CBS might do well if they could match Harvard and Grambling, but the most common FCS matchups have little national interest.

[SactoHornetFan]

I seriously debate the "no one really cares about it" argument. And the reason a "higher bidder" doesn't exist is because the NCAA packaged up all their championships not called the NCAA Men's and Women's hoops tournament and packaged them as a unit to ESPN. IMVHO, it was an epic NCAA FAIL, as it wrapped up a bunch of tournaments with significant growing popularity and viewership (Frozen Four, Lacrosse championships, NCAA wrestling, and I'd also put in here the FCS National Championship) and gave it to ESPN for very little. ESPN made out like bandits to get all this content.

The issue is for ESPN is they already have a near-monopoly on December college football. They have tons of minor bowls to promote and compete and show on their stations, not to mention conference championships. So hyping up the FCS cannibalizes their own product.

Now imagine if the NCAA had opens up the bidding for the FCS playoffs, and FOX or CBS gets that content, and it's their only college football content, and it's largely going up against the Bahamas Bowl. Suddenly, its value doubles overnight.

I remember CBS covering the I-AA championship game well. They are definitely lacking content in December and January when it comes to college football.