The Next Hot Seat In The Patriot League?

[DFW HOYA]

This is not a good year to be a struggling coach in the Patriot League. Andy Coen is under .500 over his last four years in Bethlehem, Andrew Briner's second year at Fordham isn't going well at all, and Joe Susan is 34-48 in seven years at Bucknell.

Does Rob Sgarlata join this list? I've known Rob for over 20 years. He's a great ambassador for Georgetown and someone who lives the core values of the program. You only hear good things about him from other coaches. That having been said, he's lost six straight games in 2017, seven consecutive home games over two seasons and 14 of 15 overall. The team has little or no depth, is down to its 3rd string QB, and ranks in the bottom three in the nation in rushing, first downs, and time of possession. The Hoyas had the ball for just 3:55 in the fourth quarter Saturday.

Where his predecessor had an even worse record (after four years Kevin Kelly was 5-39, 1-23 in PL play), Kelly stayed under the radar in an era where Top 20 basketball kept up the spirits of the fan base, and there was some solace that at least everyone in the PL was competing on the same level without scholarships. Now, the continual beat-down losses will lead to further grumbling that the Patriot League has become a dead end. Georgetown could have jumped ship any number of times and has not done so. Sgarlata is a good coach who's making the best of it, but Georgetown has to start doing better.

Next year's schedule features a 45-scholarship Campbell team in the Big South, at Dartmouth, at Brown, the soaring Columbia Lions, and six PL games. Where are the wins in that lineup?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

1. Breiner
2. Coen
3. Sgarlata
4. Susan
5. Hunt

It Lehigh finishes say 4-7 with a loss to Lafayette Coen's seat should be boiling hot.

[PAllen]

If Lehigh loses to Lafayette, Coen should be gone. He won't be, but he should. I expect us to limp back into the playoffs, get killed in an openning round game, and then be told all about our PL championship and how we just aren't there yet when it comes to competing against "scholarship conferences". Of course we are a scholarship conference, and it's just as likely that our beatdown comes at the hands of a non-scholly or lower scholly team. Anyway, it will be two more years of Andy and Joe before anyone notices.

The Lehigh that I went to didn't strive for mediocrity in anything. That Lehigh exists in name only anymore.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If Lehigh loses to Lafayette, Coen should be gone. He won't be, but he should. I expect us to limp back into the playoffs, get killed in an openning round game, and then be told all about our PL championship and how we just aren't there yet when it comes to competing against "scholarship conferences". Of course we are a scholarship conference, and it's just as likely that our beatdown comes at the hands of a non-scholly or lower scholly team. Anyway, it will be two more years of Andy and Joe before anyone notices.

The Lehigh that I went to didn't strive for mediocrity in anything. That Lehigh exists in name only anymore.

Do what Notre Dame did with Brian Kelly, make Coen clean house. Notre Dame's defense was terrible last year. Kelly canned Van Gordor during the season then got rid of everyone else after. Now the Irish D is dominating.

How about Lehigh athletics in the early to mid 90's? The football team was middling (except '91, '93 and '95 were not nationally good) in a completely irrelevant PL and basketball was beginning a decade long coma.

Holy Cross fans love to complain about the PL but Lehigh football from about 1985 to 1998 (except 1991) was pretty pointless outside of the Lafayette game. This year's team would beat the '93 and '95 league championship teams by 3+ TD's....

[ngineer]

Do what Notre Dame did with Brian Kelly, make Coen clean house. Notre Dame's defense was terrible last year. Kelly canned Van Gordor during the season then got rid of everyone else after. Now the Irish D is dominating.

How about Lehigh athletics in the early to mid 90's? The football team was middling (except '91, '93 and '95 were not nationally good) in a completely irrelevant PL and basketball was beginning a decade long coma.

Holy Cross fans love to complain about the PL but Lehigh football from about 1985 to 1998 (except 1991) was pretty pointless outside of the Lafayette game. This year's team would beat the '93 and '95 league championship teams by 3+ TD's....

Good post. I don't see what PAllen's "striving for mediocrity" is about. The team won 9 games last year and, yes, had a lousy start this year (although the Villanova game showed that talent exists). Other than that glorious streak from 1998-2003, Lehigh has always had its up and down periods. At a school that does not focus on athletics, but sees them as part of the educational system, Lehigh has always chosen to 'play up' against D-I competition despite being a relatively small private school. We could easily have stayed at D-II and done well. The Patriot League was created under a philosophy that is different than the great majority of athletic conferences so that like-minded schools can still compete at a challenging level. I prefer the challenge rather than take the ball and go home. It's a game played by students. Too many people apply 'professional prisms' to college athletics from what they see and hear all the time on TV.

[Sader87]

Sgarlata shouldn't be fired imo....impossible situation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How about Lehigh athletics in the early to mid 90's? The football team was middling (except '91, '93 and '95 were not nationally good) in a completely irrelevant PL and basketball was beginning a decade long coma.

Holy Cross fans love to complain about the PL but Lehigh football from about 1985 to 1998 (except 1991) was pretty pointless outside of the Lafayette game. This year's team would beat the '93 and '95 league championship teams by 3+ TD's....

From 1988 onwards, the Murray Goodman Stadium era, it felt like Lehigh was building something in football. Older fans and the seniors would wax philosophic about ancient, decrepit Taylor Stadium and the partying that would surround Lehigh/Lafayette and the excess of that week, but when things moved to Murray Goodman there was a sense of newness around the program again. It's at this time when the "Air Lehigh" offense was developed and executed, and the a program philosophy that could have read "as we improve, we may not win every game, but we're going to score a lot of points, we're going to play smart, and we're going to be entertaining." Many of those Hank Small teams packed the house at Murray Goodman, hard as it can be to remember today. That's because they were interesting teams, win or lose. The 1991 game vs. Holy Cross was one of the all-time greats because that philosophy was on display with two terrific teams.

Furthermore, the PL had some national recognition as well. Holy Cross ended the 1991 season as the No. 4 team in the nation, 11-0 and having pounded most of their competition, including the Ivy League champs Dartmouth. Lehigh was ranked when they lost to Holy Cross as well. I believe the only reason that HC wasn't invited to the FCS playoffs was that they would have refused a bid - at that time, the PL was assumed to be operating like the Ivy League. Whether it was a league-wide thing or a Holy Cross thing I am not certain, but what was definite was that in 1991 the Patriot League had one of the top I-AA teams in the nation, and Holy Cross wasn't going to participate in the playoffs.

After I graduated, it was natural for me to return for at least a couple games a year as a young alum. Games were still a social scene. This was before tailgating was under crackdown, and buses came over from campus to games every 1/2 hour or so, and the drivers would look the other way if you were carrying a beer or three. Drinking was clearly a big part of the fan experience - port-a-john's always had lines. There were probably problems somewhere, but me and my friends never were given a rough time when we came back to games.

There was a group of like four of us among my friends that were true fans of the program - we knew the standings, the players, the new overtime rules (which came in very handy in 1995), and stayed for all four quarters, rain or shine. But most came for the beer and burgers, waltzed in midway through the 1st quarter, and were back drinking at the tailgates after halftime. If it rained, they'd never show themselves in.

By 1997 whatever opposition to the I-AA playoffs had evaporated in PL circles, mostly because all the PL schools were spooked that there might not be a Patriot League. Fordham had already left in all sports (rejoining in football) and Holy Cross was threatening to leave, and the health of the league was in jeopardy. Quietly the league, spearheaded by Lehigh (and I think some other schools), started making some of the scholarship money offered to athletes "grants" instead of loans, specifically in football. Though not conventional scholarships, for some it was basically the same effect, but thus also not technically "non-scholarship".

The point of this long tangent is that I object to calling the 90s teams "middling". The 90s Lehigh teams were in the middle of building a program philosophy that actually extends to today. They didn't play in the playoffs, but some PL teams were nationally relevant - Holy Cross absolutely was, when Lehigh played them in 91 Lehigh was, and at different points Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell certainly were as well. In 1997 the wider I-AA world didn't really register PL teams as any sort of national threat, but that certainly changed in 1998 and Colgate's run to the championship in 2003 - with a win over Florida Atlantic, who had more than 63 scholarship players on their roster - wasn't a shocking development, because Colgate had already been good and nationally relevant for years.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Hunt will be the Head Coach at Colgate for a loooong time. The Colgate football PROGRAM may be in a unique position relative to the other PL schools. The PROGRAM appears to have more built-in stability than many of the other PL schools have at this juncture.

Hunt holds the Dunlop Endowed Head Football Coaching Chair. He served as an assistant for 19 years under Dick Biddle, many as the offensive coordinator, before being elevated to the Head Coaching position almost 4 years ago. This is his 4th season as Head Coach. He was being groomed by Biddle for the position for several years before Biddle announced his retirement. There has been almost no staff turnover since Hunt took over. The coaching staff includes several 'gate football alumni and highly respected long term offensive and defensive coordinators. The Associate Head Coach, a Colgate alum, is fittingly the Recruiting Coordinator. No staff turnover is anticipated at this time.

I think Dan Hunt is considered by many as the custodian of the traditions flowing from Colgate's 125+ year rich football legacy. In a word, Hunt is considered a "keeper" and/or a "long-termer." Not as a transient coaching cowboy.

The 2017 season was considered by many to be a transition year for Colgate football.. A substantial portion of the talented 2015 playoff team graduated last Spring, including 3+ year starting quarterback Jake Melville.

The 2017 summer training camp was dedicated to selecting the next quarterback from among 3 candidates: a freshman, a sophomore and a junior. The freshman, Grant Breneman was selected by Hunt. Selecting a freshman is often considered a risky and gutsy decision for a coach. So far, this has turned out to be a great decision and a real feather in Hunt's cap, as if he needed one. Patience has been exercised all around to provide a longer term horizon for evaluating the wisdom of this decision. At this juncture, the way Breneman has performed, the way players around him have emerged and the way in which the team's performance improved as the season has progressed has reinforced Hunt's goodwill.

( Fans are familiar with how to interpret 'gate season performance. "Let's see improvement as the season wears on" is the mantra. It's especially true this year as the early part of the schedule presented two challenges: 1. Traditional o.o.c. stretch games are more challenging than competition later in the season. 2. Breaking in a new freshman quarterback restrains game planning. Recognizing continued team progress as this season winds down is probably as important this year in evaluating Hunt as reaching a specific W-L target. A large portion of the 2017 team will be back next season.)

Hunt has aways been widely respected by players, faculty, administrators--especially Colgate's President, alums, Hammy community members and financial backers in the Maroon Council. There hasn't been harmony like this for the football PROGRAM, among these constituents, for decades. There have never been "hot-seat" discussions of any duration during the Biddle-Hunt years. I don't know if there was a history/culture of the "coach's hot seat" mentality in the years preceding the 20 plus years of the Biddle-Hunt regimes.( It's hard to imagine that the 67 game Colgate-Syracuse rivalry didn't catalyze such discussions ? ) Another 'gate poster might comment on when the last "FB Head Coach Hot Seat" mania occurred. I think, among those who care, there is a broad consensus that the football program and its leadership is in great shape. The future for Colgate football and Dan Hunt is quite bright at this juncture.

[Neighbor2]

Good post. I don't see what PAllen's "striving for mediocrity" is about. The team won 9 games last year and, yes, had a lousy start this year (although the Villanova game showed that talent exists). Other than that glorious streak from 1998-2003, Lehigh has always had its up and down periods. At a school that does not focus on athletics, but sees them as part of the educational system, Lehigh has always chosen to 'play up' against D-I competition despite being a relatively small private school. We could easily have stayed at D-II and done well. The Patriot League was created under a philosophy that is different than the great majority of athletic conferences so that like-minded schools can still compete at a challenging level. I prefer the challenge rather than take the ball and go home. It's a game played by students. Too many people apply 'professional prisms' to college athletics from what they see and hear all the time on TV.


I think PAllen's post sums everything up nicely. Your response, however, is part of a broken record. There's always been an excuse, a qualifier attached to Lehigh sports performance. That's grown old. The image IS one of acceptance of just playing for the sake of playing. The 'everyone deserves a trophy' just for being there.

The best athletes at the top of the recruiting list are looking for something more than 'thanks for participating.' They want to achieve at the highest possible level. To not just compete, but to dominate, be the winner of the gold.

There are many top academic players on teams throughout all college football divisions, even FCS. Lehigh is not so unusual in that regard. It is possible to produce a stronger, nationally dominate FCS team at Lehigh than what we've been seeing lately. It is possible to attract bigger home crowds and widespread attention. That begins with options Lehigh can choose to make. It just isn't.

Most observers prefer/enjoy something more than just an 'Oh, well . . . ' football effort. They have other options for Saturday afternoons.

[Southsider]

I think PAllen's post sums everything up nicely. Your response, however, is part of a broken record. There's always been an excuse, a qualifier attached to Lehigh sports performance. That's grown old. The image IS one of acceptance of just playing for the sake of playing. The 'everyone deserves a trophy' just for being there.

The best athletes at the top of the recruiting list are looking for something more than 'thanks for participating.' They want to achieve at the highest possible level. To not just compete, but to dominate, be the winner of the gold.

There are many top academic players on teams throughout all college football divisions, even FCS. Lehigh is not so unusual in that regard. It is possible to produce a stronger, nationally dominate FCS team at Lehigh than what we've been seeing lately. It is possible to attract bigger home crowds and widespread attention. That begins with options Lehigh can choose to make. It just isn't.

Most observers prefer/enjoy something more than just an 'Oh, well . . . ' football effort. They have other options for Saturday afternoons.

#1 post of all time N2. Spot on!!

[RichH2]

Good post. I don't see what PAllen's "striving for mediocrity" is about. The team won 9 games last year and, yes, had a lousy start this year (although the Villanova game showed that talent exists). Other than that glorious streak from 1998-2003, Lehigh has always had its up and down periods. At a school that does not focus on athletics, but sees them as part of the educational system, Lehigh has always chosen to 'play up' against D-I competition despite being a relatively small private school. We could easily have stayed at D-II and done well. The Patriot League was created under a philosophy that is different than the great majority of athletic conferences so that like-minded schools can still compete at a challenging level. I prefer the challenge rather than take the ball and go home. It's a game played by students. Too many people apply 'professional prisms' to college athletics from what they see and hear all the time on TV.

Absolutely. Lehigh does not strive to emulate Ivy Lite philosophy. The goal is excellence in all we do to be the best possible Lehigh. Cycles are a fact of life with Lehigh and the PL. Under PL rules very hard to maintain depth. Coaches have virtually no leeway with recruiting. Miss on a too many recruits and squad has too many holes to win consistently. Missing includes losing multiple players to injuries. Redshirting would help but alone it is not a panacea. Just take a look at W&M this year. They redshirt most of their frosh each year. Lifting schollie cap is essential for us. PL coaches have to choose correctly every year. Decide how many fulls vs partials to award. The more fulls the better the talent usually but you lose depth.

[Lehigh'98]

Do what Notre Dame did with Brian Kelly, make Coen clean house. Notre Dame's defense was terrible last year. Kelly canned Van Gordor during the season then got rid of everyone else after. Now the Irish D is dominating.

How about Lehigh athletics in the early to mid 90's? The football team was middling (except '91, '93 and '95 were not nationally good) in a completely irrelevant PL and basketball was beginning a decade long coma.

Holy Cross fans love to complain about the PL but Lehigh football from about 1985 to 1998 (except 1991) was pretty pointless outside of the Lafayette game. This year's team would beat the '93 and '95 league championship teams by 3+ TD's....

No way man. Rabih would have ran for 350+ against our D today. Are you insane? They wouldn't have come close to stopping him. Would be a high scoring game, but this year's D flat out stinks. The 95 D would have got a few stops.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

No way man. Rabih would have ran for 350+ against our D today. Are you insane? They wouldn't have come close to stopping him. Would be a high scoring game, but this year's D flat out stinks. The 95 D would have got a few stops.

Rabih was a big time player but outside of him? The talent level on those teams top to bottom weren't nearly as good. 1995 was definitely better than 1993 but I'd still take this year's team with better defensive coaching. The PL from 1992-1996 stunk imo. Way worse than it is now....


1995 (8-3)
Patriot League
Champions
at Army L, 9-42
at Colgate W, 20-9
Yale W, 21-10
UNH L, 14-35
at Bucknell W, 30-23,
at Columbia W, 37-35
Cornell W, 34-23
at UMass L, 36-44
at Fordham W, 17-0
Holy Cross W, 51-21
Lafayette W, 37-30


1993 (7-4)
Patriot League
Champions
at Delaware L, 21-62
at Fordham W, 24-6
Hofstra W, 31-24
Brown W, 42-35
Cornell W, 35-13
at Princeton L, 23-31
at Colgate W, 36-32
Holy Cross W, 17-10
at Bucknell L, 27-32
at Idaho L, 14-77
Lafayette W, 39-14

[Lehigh'98]

Rabih was a big time player but outside of him? The talent level on those teams top to bottom weren't nearly as good. 1995 was definitely better than 1993 but I'd still take this year's team with better defensive coaching. The PL from 1992-1996 stunk imo. Way worse than it is now....


1995 (8-3)
Patriot League
Champions
at Army L, 9-42
at Colgate W, 20-9
Yale W, 21-10
UNH L, 14-35
at Bucknell W, 30-23,
at Columbia W, 37-35
Cornell W, 34-23
at UMass L, 36-44
at Fordham W, 17-0
Holy Cross W, 51-21
Lafayette W, 37-30


1993 (7-4)
Patriot League
Champions
at Delaware L, 21-62
at Fordham W, 24-6
Hofstra W, 31-24
Brown W, 42-35
Cornell W, 35-13
at Princeton L, 23-31
at Colgate W, 36-32
Holy Cross W, 17-10
at Bucknell L, 27-32
at Idaho L, 14-77
Lafayette W, 39-14

The defensive talent top to bottom was far superior to our defense today. Far(not nationally great, but I'm comparing to 2017). This years team is much better on offense, but in no way would have been able to stop the 95 offense. You said they would win by 3 td's. It's just not true.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The defensive talent top to bottom was far superior to our defense today. Far(not nationally great, but I'm comparing to 2017). This years team is much better on offense, but in no way would have been able to stop the 95 offense. You said they would win by 3 td's. It's just not true.

There was a bunch of talent in the freshman class in 1995 but upperclassmen?

[Lehigh'98]

There was a bunch of talent in the freshman class in 1995 but upperclassman?

Going down the Lehigh rabbit hole yet again: The secondary had solid players who could tackle well against the run. Miller, Rivers, May, R. McDonald. To a man they are far better than what is back there today. LB's were led by Eckenrode, very tough group. Solid against run, lacked speed but had a nose for ball. The Dline had some big guys, Martucci, Sunderland (6'9, about 300), Pankey (6'5 260/70), Merrifield (all state wrestler). They didn't get blown off the ball like you see this year, not even close. I'm not trying to make this group out to be the 85 Bears, but there were a lot of effort guys who played their asses off.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Going down the Lehigh rabbit hole yet again: The secondary had solid players who could tackle well against the run. Miller, Rivers, May, R. McDonald. To a man they are far better than what is back there today. LB's were led by Eckenrode, very tough group. Solid against run, lacked speed but had a nose for ball. The Dline had some big guys, Martucci, Sunderland (6'9, about 300), Pankey (6'5 260/70), Merrifield (all state wrestler). They didn't get blown off the ball like you see this year, not even close. I'm not trying to make this group out to be the 85 Bears, but there were a lot of effort guys who played their asses off.

Lance Eckenrode and McDonald (Roman?, 1st name escapes me) are two guys I definitely remember. The DL names ring a bell (obviously Martucci) now that you've mentioned them. It would be interesting to say the least. You have to remember they had Higgins as a major influence. Put Higgins with this 2 deep and the results are not nearly this bad. I think last year's defense was probably more in line with the '95 group.

[Lehigh'98]

Lance Eckenrode and McDonald (Roman?, 1st name escapes me) are two guys I definitely remember. The DL names ring a bell (obviously Martucci) now that you've mentioned them. It would be interesting to say the least. You have to remember they had Higgins as a major influence. Put Higgins with this 2 deep and the results are not nearly this bad. I think last year's defense was probably more in line with the '95 group.

Yeah, my only point is I don't think you were being fair to the 95 team (who won a title and beat all the Ivies it played) saying they would lose by 3 td's to a Lehigh team with the worst defense of all time and got routed by it's entire OOC schedule.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lance Eckenrode and McDonald (Roman?, 1st name escapes me) are two guys I definitely remember. The DL names ring a bell (obviously Martucci) now that you've mentioned them. It would be interesting to say the least. You have to remember they had Higgins as a major influence. Put Higgins with this 2 deep and the results are not nearly this bad. I think last year's defense was probably more in line with the '95 group.

Wasn't Kevin Jefferson also on the 95 team?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Wasn't Kevin Jefferson also on the 95 team?

He graduated in 1993/94. I still remember him at the 1990 Lafayette game as a 16 year old frosh, played a great game. Erick "E-Train" Torain tore it up that day....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yeah, my only point is I don't think you were being fair to the 95 team (who won a title and beat all the Ivies it played) saying they would lose by 3 td's to a Lehigh team with the worst defense of all time and got routed by it's entire OOC schedule.

You have pride in the 1995 team which is a good thing! Maybe not 3 TD's but I'd still have money on this year's team. Aylsworth, Klingerman and Abdullah was a great trio but the offensive talent, including the OL, is not as good as it is now. I still think the biggest issue with recent defenses is coaching. The front 7 is still a bit undersized but the coaching isn't helping to mask any of the deficiencies.

[RichH2]

1. Breiner
2. Coen
3. Sgarlata
4. Susan
5. Hunt

It Lehigh finishes say 4-7 with a loss to Lafayette Coen's seat should be boiling hot.

Right now hot seats are empty.
Breiner year 1. DC likely out.
Coen unlikely even with a collapse and L to Pards. His seat would definitely be toasty then :). DC 1st yr but D has been so bad expect a shakeup here.
Dont see anyone else in jeopardy.

[RichH2]

You have pride in the 1995 team which is a good thing! Maybe not 3 TD's but I'd still have money on this year's team. Aylsworth, Klingerman and Abdullah was a great trio but the offensive talent, including the OL, is not as good as it is now. I still think the biggest issue with recent defenses is coaching. The front 7 is still a bit undersized but the coaching isn't helping to mask any of the deficiencies.
Agree on D coaching. The repetition of mistakes leading to a constant run of big plays is coaching. Some leeway due to all the frosh and sophs rotating in the back 7 but it should be lessening. Have seen no hint of that yet.

[Lehigh'98]

You have pride in the 1995 team which is a good thing! Maybe not 3 TD's but I'd still have money on this year's team. Aylsworth, Klingerman and Abdullah was a great trio but the offensive talent, including the OL, is not as good as it is now. I still think the biggest issue with recent defenses is coaching. The front 7 is still a bit undersized but the coaching isn't helping to mask any of the deficiencies.

I agree the talent on offense is some of the best in the country this year and better than in 95. Look what that got them in OOC play so far though, 0-5. They are diametrically opposed by the defense! Also, I don't know how to separate out coaching from teams, saying if this team had Higgins. Fact is they don't, they have Coen, Bott and some ex D3 coaches and they have recruited and shaped the team. 95 team had Higgins, Clawson, Coen and a few other good ones on staff. Sure, that is part of the teams makeup, but I don't think you get to separate that when comparing past vs present.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I could talk 90s Lehigh football all afternoon, but reeling this back in a bit - are there/should there be PL coaches on the hot seat? I think we need to go back to the Gilmore firing and unpack this a little. To a person, people said good things about Gilmore, that he genuinely cares and looked out for his football players he brought to Woo, he graduated his players, and seemed to be a good person. Yet there was a point vs. Yale where the AD felt like the team wasn't competing, and Nate Pine thought that a radical change was needed in order to compete. Gilmore was the quintessential PL head coach - good guy, head screwed on right, and graduated his players. But that wasn't enough to save him when the W/L record didn't meet expectations.

It's worth mentioning that this is a new phenomenon. Last year, the joke was that a coaching job in the PL was a coaching job for life, win or lose. Now a case could be made that no team has met their expectations, partially because expectations were sky-high going into the season. It's undeniable that the league as a whole has not met expectations - Lehigh losing to Wagner? William and Mary 3 TDs better than Bucknell? Furman 30+ points better than Colgate? The PL has lost games they should have won and even gotten blown out against teams they should have at least been competitive against.

Even if Lehigh does win their last four games, at 6-5 and Patriot League Champions, they wouldn't have lived up to their preseason expectations, even if they end up achieving most of their preseason goals. But if they do, the story of their season would be how they righted the ship out of a disastrous 0-5 start and had a successful season, which isn't easy.

Personally, I am not sure Lehigh has solved all the problems of their bad start. But it's hard to say Andy is on/off the hot seat because we don't know how this ends yet. If Lehigh finishes 6-5 and wins the PL, he can't possibly be on any sort of hot seat. Some assistants might be, but not Andy. If Andy loses all four games, it seems likely he would be. What can be said is, whatever happens Lehigh will have underperformed from their very lofty preseason expectations. But as a fan, I'll be thrilled with a PL title, a 5-0 league record, and a shot at James Madison with nothing to lose.

[Lehigh'98]

1. Breiner
2. Coen
3. Sgarlata
4. Susan
5. Hunt

It Lehigh finishes say 4-7 with a loss to Lafayette Coen's seat should be boiling hot.

I agree with this list besides Hunt for now. Sgarlata should not be immune, he should be judged on a curve though. They are trending way down and he doesn't look to be making much progress. Breiner is probably gone. Lehigh, regardless of what happens this year, needs to clean house on defense, but Coen will survive another year. Not really sure about Susan, they never seem to really improve though.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I agree with this list besides Hunt for now. Sgarlata should not be immune, he should be judged on a curve though. They are trending way down and he doesn't look to be making much progress. Breiner is probably gone. Lehigh, regardless of what happens this year, needs to clean house on defense, but Coen will survive another year. Not really sure about Susan, they never seem to really improve though.

I have some sympathy for Breiner.

1. He's a 31 year old head coach so there's some growing pains.
2. The defense was not good under Moorhead. Joe might be an offensive genius but his defensive acumen was/is seriously suspect. IMO, he left the cupboard pretty bare.

I think Fordham and Lehigh should do the same thing with their coaches. Allow them to remain but with serious overhauls to their staff. If that doesn't produce better results then we'll know who to point the finger at.

[RichH2]

I have some sympathy for Breiner.

1. He's a 31 year old head coach so there's some growing pains.
2. The defense was not good under Moorhead. Joe might be an offensive genius but his defensive acumen was/is seriously suspect. IMO, he left the cupboard pretty bare.

I think Fordham and Lehigh should do the same thing with their coaches. Allow them to remain but with serious overhauls to their staff. If that doesn't produce better results then we'll know who to point the finger at.

Probably best approach. Sutyak tho is a puzzle. Superb recruiter and excellent at communicating with players. A new scheme and a lot of new players part of the issue. Lack of substantive improvement bothers me. Why?? Not an insider so I have no actual knowledge as to all the possible whys except to question the teaching aspect as well as lack of experience in back 7.

[Go Green]

, at Brown .... Where are the wins in that lineup?

Right there. Just ask Stetson to send you the game tape.

[PAllen]

I have some sympathy for Breiner.

1. He's a 31 year old head coach so there's some growing pains.
2. The defense was not good under Moorhead. Joe might be an offensive genius but his defensive acumen was/is seriously suspect. IMO, he left the cupboard pretty bare.

I think Fordham and Lehigh should do the same thing with their coaches. Allow them to remain but with serious overhauls to their staff. If that doesn't produce better results then we'll know who to point the finger at.

But that's what's been said at Lehigh for 4+ years now. When do we start pointing the finger at the HC and AD? I have no reason to believe that "one more year" with new assistants is going to gain us anything more than it has the past few years.

[ngineer]

I think PAllen's post sums everything up nicely. Your response, however, is part of a broken record. There's always been an excuse, a qualifier attached to Lehigh sports performance. That's grown old. The image IS one of acceptance of just playing for the sake of playing. The 'everyone deserves a trophy' just for being there.

The best athletes at the top of the recruiting list are looking for something more than 'thanks for participating.' They want to achieve at the highest possible level. To not just compete, but to dominate, be the winner of the gold.

There are many top academic players on teams throughout all college football divisions, even FCS. Lehigh is not so unusual in that regard. It is possible to produce a stronger, nationally dominate FCS team at Lehigh than what we've been seeing lately. It is possible to attract bigger home crowds and widespread attention. That begins with options Lehigh can choose to make. It just isn't.

Most observers prefer/enjoy something more than just an 'Oh, well . . . ' football effort. They have other options for Saturday afternoons.

It is not an excuse. It is reality. The PL schools will never be able to compete on a regular basis with the like of the CAA, MVFC or SoCon. We can, occasionally, strike pay dirt with some excellent melding of recruits and coaching. But the schools, as institutions, are not of the mindset to try and move to that level. We have some great fanatical supporters for Lehigh football, and some other sports, but we are a small minority. We think it important to compete at the highest level on the field or court, but the great majority of alums could care less and it is reflected in the giving. I would love for Lehigh to become a perennial power in the national conversation, but unless philosophies change, that aint going to happen. In terms of the PL, we ARE the gold standard. We have won more games and more championships than any school in league history. Enjoy and celebrate that. Otherwise one just ends up with a headache from banging one's head against the wall. Also, the stadium was not packed during the Small years. The team's record was barely above .500 in his tenure and average crowds were 7-8,000. It was only during that part of the Higgins era and start of Lembo that the average hit just over 10,000. The Stadium seats 16,000, with room for another 4,000 on the horseshoe. Hardly, packed.

[RichH2]

It is not an excuse. It is reality. The PL schools will never be able to compete on a regular basis with the like of the CAA, MVFC or SoCon. We can, occasionally, strike pay dirt with some excellent melding of recruits and coaching. But the schools, as institutions, are not of the mindset to try and move to that level. We have some great fanatical supporters for Lehigh football, and some other sports, but we are a small minority. We think it important to compete at the highest level on the field or court, but the great majority of alums could care less and it is reflected in the giving. I would love for Lehigh to become a perennial power in the national conversation, but unless philosophies change, that aint going to happen. In terms of the PL, we ARE the gold standard. We have won more games and more championships than any school in league history. Enjoy and celebrate that. Otherwise one just ends up with a headache from banging one's head against the wall. Also, the stadium was not packed during the Small years. The team's record was barely above .500 in his tenure and average crowds were 7-8,000. It was only during that part of the Higgins era and start of Lembo that the average hit just over 10,000. The Stadium seats 16,000, with room for another 4,000 on the horseshoe. Hardly, packed.

Neighbor2 desperately wants Lehigh to become a CAA program it seems. Rose colored views of our football tradition are not an actual basis to slam today's program which has its own very real issues. Too easy to forget the landscape that Kevin was able to forge a superior program with only need aid. A truly remarkable feat.
The landscape is substantially different today in the competition for top talent. PL restrictions definitely hamper recruiting. I note thatFordham, Lehigh and Colgate wanted 63 schollies. Various financial issues at other schools forced the comoromise to 60.

[NY Crusader 2010]

1. Breiner
2. Coen
3. Sgarlata
4. Susan
5. Hunt

It Lehigh finishes say 4-7 with a loss to Lafayette Coen's seat should be boiling hot.

My prediction is Lehigh finishes either 6-5 (6-0) or 5-6 (5-1) and a Patriot League title. Since you guys already beat Colgate, you can afford to go 2-1 against the trio of HC, Fordham and Lafayette and STILL beat the Raiders for the auto-bid should they run the table. Bucknell has only one loss in conference at this point so you'd have to either beat them on the road 11/4 OR hope they lose twice while you guys win the other three.

I'll even project the playoff matchup for the Engineers -- @ Delaware.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It is not an excuse. It is reality. The PL schools will never be able to compete on a regular basis with the like of the CAA, MVFC or SoCon. We can, occasionally, strike pay dirt with some excellent melding of recruits and coaching. But the schools, as institutions, are not of the mindset to try and move to that level. We have some great fanatical supporters for Lehigh football, and some other sports, but we are a small minority. We think it important to compete at the highest level on the field or court, but the great majority of alums could care less and it is reflected in the giving. I would love for Lehigh to become a perennial power in the national conversation, but unless philosophies change, that aint going to happen. In terms of the PL, we ARE the gold standard. We have won more games and more championships than any school in league history. Enjoy and celebrate that. Otherwise one just ends up with a headache from banging one's head against the wall. Also, the stadium was not packed during the Small years. The team's record was barely above .500 in his tenure and average crowds were 7-8,000. It was only during that part of the Higgins era and start of Lembo that the average hit just over 10,000. The Stadium seats 16,000, with room for another 4,000 on the horseshoe. Hardly, packed.

The Patriot League still needs to be better than it is and has been imo. I don't expect the Patriot League to produce national title contenders on a regular basis. However, the league should be able to win playoff games more frequently and have an elite team every 3-4 years that does have a chance to make a serious run in the playoffs. The PL will never be the MVFC and CAA and that's ok. But it should be better than the NEC, OVC, Big South etc. I think the Southland and SoCon are what they should strive for.

Lehigh has averaged something like 7.8 wins a year since 1990. That's REALLY good. They'll have some bad years, that's ok, but their ceiling should remain very high. We know they have Top 10/5 potential. There's nothing wrong a with 4-7/5-6 season here and there if you bounce back. Villanova/Talley is a great example of that. The Wildcats had some bad teams/2-3 year spans but they always bounce back in a big way.

One of my biggest gripes will remain the stubbornness to host playoff games. It's absurd to send your own worthy student athletes on the road because you're cheap. Pony up and get some of these schools on your home turf. Lehigh should not be getting outbid by UNH. I don't care what anyone says. Last year's team should never have had to make that 7 hour bus ride over a holiday weekend.

[Go...gate]

Hunt will be the Head Coach at Colgate for a loooong time. The Colgate football PROGRAM may be in a unique position relative to the other PL schools. The PROGRAM appears to have more built-in stability than many of the other PL schools have at this juncture.

Hunt holds the Fred Dunlap Endowed Head Football Coaching Chair. He served as an assistant for 19 years under Dick Biddle, many as the offensive coordinator, before being elevated to the Head Coaching position almost 4 years ago. This is his 4th season as Head Coach. He was being groomed by Biddle for the position for several years before Biddle announced his retirement. There has been almost no staff turnover since Hunt took over. The coaching staff includes several 'gate football alumni and highly respected long term offensive and defensive coordinators. The Associate Head Coach, a Colgate alum, is fittingly the Recruiting Coordinator. No staff turnover is anticipated at this time.

I think Dan Hunt is considered by many as the custodian of the traditions flowing from Colgate's 125+ year rich football legacy. In a word, Hunt is considered a "keeper" and/or a "long-termer." Not as a transient coaching cowboy.

The 2017 season was considered by many to be a transition year for Colgate football. A substantial portion of the talented 2015 playoff team graduated last Spring, including 3+ year starting quarterback Jake Melville.

The 2017 summer training camp was dedicated to selecting the next quarterback from among 3 candidates: a freshman, a sophomore and a junior. The freshman, Grant Breneman was selected by Hunt. Selecting a freshman is often considered a risky and gutsy decision for a coach. So far, this has turned out to be a great decision and a real feather in Hunt's cap, as if he needed one. Patience has been exercised all around to provide a longer term horizon for evaluating the wisdom of this decision. At this juncture, the way Breneman has performed, the way players around him have emerged and the way in which the team's performance improved as the season has progressed has reinforced Hunt's goodwill.

(Fans are familiar with how to interpret 'gate season performance. "Let's see improvement as the season wears on" is the mantra. It's especially true this year as the early part of the schedule presented two challenges: 1. Traditional o.o.c. stretch games are more challenging than competition later in the season. 2. Breaking in a new freshman quarterback restrains game planning. Recognizing continued team progress as this season winds down is probably as important this year in evaluating Hunt as reaching a specific W-L target. A large portion of the 2017 team will be back next season.)

Hunt has always been widely respected by players, faculty, administrators--especially Colgate's President, alums, Hammy community members and financial backers in the Maroon Council. There hasn't been harmony like this for the football PROGRAM, among these constituents, for decades. There have never been "hot-seat" discussions of any duration during the Biddle-Hunt years. I don't know if there was a history/culture of the "coach's hot seat" mentality in the years preceding the 20 plus years of the Biddle-Hunt regimes. (It's hard to imagine that the 67 game Colgate-Syracuse rivalry didn't catalyze such discussions ?) Another 'gate poster might comment on when the last "FB Head Coach Hot Seat" mania occurred. I think, among those who care, there is a broad consensus that the football program and its leadership is in great shape. The future for Colgate football and Dan Hunt is quite bright at this juncture.

You have to go back to doleful tenure of the late Edward F. Sweeney (1993-95), for such mania. Sweeney was not a bad man or even a bad coach, but he had an administration under Neil Grabois which really, truly wanted Colgate Athletics to drop to Division III. Before that there was Fred Rice (1957-59) who struggled to succeed.

[Neighbor2]

It is not an excuse. It is reality. The PL schools will never be able to compete on a regular basis with the like of the CAA, MVFC or SoCon. We can, occasionally, strike pay dirt with some excellent melding of recruits and coaching. But the schools, as institutions, are not of the mindset to try and move to that level. We have some great fanatical supporters for Lehigh football, and some other sports, but we are a small minority. We think it important to compete at the highest level on the field or court, but the great majority of alums could care less and it is reflected in the giving. I would love for Lehigh to become a perennial power in the national conversation, but unless philosophies change, that aint going to happen. In terms of the PL, we ARE the gold standard. We have won more games and more championships than any school in league history. Enjoy and celebrate that. Otherwise one just ends up with a headache from banging one's head against the wall. Also, the stadium was not packed during the Small years. The team's record was barely above .500 in his tenure and average crowds were 7-8,000. It was only during that part of the Higgins era and start of Lembo that the average hit just over 10,000. The Stadium seats 16,000, with room for another 4,000 on the horseshoe. Hardly, packed.


It 's obvious, the limitations on becoming a regular FCS Top 10 level achiever are self-inflicted. We hear complaints about not being able to enroll the top FCS-level recruits even with scholarships. Not being able to find (pay?) top coaches. Not being able to make full use of redshirts. Not being able to draw bigger crowds, etc. Solutions to these are on Lehigh and the Patriot League. No one else.

It seems, a full commitment to improvement is not in place. Thus, mediocrity at this level of play is acceptable. So again, the signature achievement here is the league championship. The non-league contests are just for fun. OK.

So then, these annual rationalizations after coming up short have become boring and pathetic. That's my message.

[Neighbor2]

Neighbor2 desperately wants Lehigh to become a CAA program it seems. Rose colored views of our football tradition are not an actual basis to slam today's program which has its own very real issues. Too easy to forget the landscape that Kevin was able to forge a superior program with only need aid. A truly remarkable feat.
The landscape is substantially different today in the competition for top talent. PL restrictions definitely hamper recruiting. I note thatFordham, Lehigh and Colgate wanted 63 schollies. Various financial issues at other schools forced the comoromise to 60.


Lehigh to become the CAA? Not exactly. My desire is for Lehigh to face their CAA opponents with all the same tools at use in preparation. Why choose to upgrade the schedule only to compete with less ammunition? Frustrating all around. Especially for higher level potential recruits, I would imagine. Players and coaches.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We hear complaints about not being able to enroll the top FCS-level recruits even with scholarships.

Because apparently Lehigh is a Top 5 FCS offense without top FCS level recruits? Two receivers with shots at the NFL, one of the top RBs in FCS Nation and a QB that once slung the rock to Nelson Agoholor apparently aren't "top level FCS recruits" in Neighbors mind.

[Lehigh'98]

Because apparently Lehigh is a Top 5 FCS offense without top FCS level recruits? Two receivers with shots at the NFL, one of the top RBs in FCS Nation and a QB that once slung the rock to Nelson Agoholor apparently aren't "top level FCS recruits" in Neighbors mind.

It's so strange because on the offensive side, it might be some of the top guys in the country at fcs, but on defense it looks like middling D3 players.

[Neighbor2]

Because apparently Lehigh is a Top 5 FCS offense without top FCS level recruits? Two receivers with shots at the NFL, one of the top RBs in FCS Nation and a QB that once slung the rock to Nelson Agoholor apparently aren't "top level FCS recruits" in Neighbors mind.


No, I haven't made the complaint you reference. However, I would say, Lehigh isn't getting enough of that caliber athlete.

Patriot League school administrators have placed their athletes, coaches, and fans in a kind of Never-Never Land. A situation that makes FCS Division-level advancement too difficult. As if the league can't quite decide what it wants . . . so, perhaps then, is misplaced. At this time, a better design would be Patriot League and Ivy League opponents exclusively. OK, 'step-up' one time, just for kicks.

For a league of schools that touts itself as highly academic and intellectual, willingly competing with one hand tied behind your back seems a little dumb, I think. Hard to rally around that.

[carney2]

Contrary to scientific facts, the entire universe revolves around Lehigh football. This thread proves it yet again.

Oh yeah, unless one dies or resigns, all currently employed Patriot League head coaches will be in those same positions next September. Crystal ball gazing by school:

BUCKNELL: Joe Susan is currently 62. He will continue to flounder for a few more years and then retire. Bucky will hire another Joe Susan and continue to ignore football.

COLGATE: The faithful will continue to worship at the Fred Dunlap shrine and content themselves with upper tier finishes in a mediocre football conference. Hunt is safe as long as he doesn't rape the department secretary.

FORDHAM: Andrew Breiner will continue to be reviled by the Ram faithful until he either resigns or is forced out. The padres in charge will go through at least two more coaches before they realize that they've lost their "we're the only ones giving scholarships" advantage and there is no second act for Joe Moorhead.

GEORGETOWN: They already know in DC that Rob Sgarlata is the best they can do. He's competent, he really wants to be there, and the entire football situation is hopeless.

HOLY CROSS: Pine will hire the second coming. Of what ... who knows. He won't be Tom Gilmore and that will content 87 and friends for awhile. Eventually, even 87 will learn that there's no going back to the days of Gordy Lockbaum.

LEHIGH: Andy Coen still has 10 years until he reaches retirement age. He will continue to bump along with some good, some bad, all the while dodging the "You're no Kevin Higgins" bullets. The delusions of grandeur will not come to pass.

LAFAYETTE: It won't take John Garrett all that long to read the writing on the wall. He will move on to other pastures as the Leopards continue their inevitable slide to D-3.

[RichH2]

Contrary to scientific facts, the entire universe revolves around Lehigh football. This thread proves it yet again.

Oh yeah, unless one dies or resigns, all currently employed Patriot League head coaches will be in those same positions next September. Crystal ball gazing by school:

BUCKNELL: Joe Susan is currently 62. He will continue to flounder for a few more years and then retire. Bucky will hire another Joe Susan and continue to ignore football.

COLGATE: The faithful will continue to worship at the Fred Dunlap shrine and content themselves with upper tier finishes in a mediocre football conference. Hunt is safe as long as he doesn't rape the department secretary.

FORDHAM: Andrew Breiner will continue to be reviled by the Ram faithful until he either resigns or is forced out. The padres in charge will go through at least two more coaches before they realize that they've lost their "we're the only ones giving scholarships" advantage and there is no second act for Joe Moorhead.

GEORGETOWN: They already know in DC that Rob Sgarlata is the best they can do. He's competent, he really wants to be there, and the entire football situation is hopeless.

HOLY CROSS: Pine will hire the second coming. Of what ... who knows. He won't be Tom Gilmore and that will content 87 and friends for awhile. Eventually, even 87 will learn that there's no going back to the days of Gordy Lockbaum.

LEHIGH: Andy Coen still has 10 years until he reaches retirement age. He will continue to bump along with some good, some bad, all the while dodging the "You're no Kevin Higgins" bullets. The delusions of grandeur will not come to pass.

LAFAYETTE: It won't take John Garrett all that long to read the writing on the wall. He will move on to other pastures as the Leopards continue their inevitable slide to D-3.

The resident curmudgeon has morphed into Dr.Bleak.
I dont have any quick and easy answer for why PL has taken a nose dive this year. But, I do realize that PL programs historically go through cycles for various reasons. The unusual fact is we all have hit a down year at the same time. PL rules dont help but causes for each team are in my opinion mostly specific to each program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me counter carney's Armageddon with a different take.

LAFAYETTE - Garrett has embarked on a multi-year rebuilding effort that will take some years to come to complete fruition. He's already made huge progress by winning a couple of Patriot League games and the Leopards will have meaningful games in November - and could still win the Patriot League. Regardless, he has exceeded expectations and the near future looks bright.

GTOWN - Sgarlata is a great ambassador for the program and a really likeable coach. But the admin is only willing to go so far to help him win the Patriot League. You wonder, if Sgarlata even got, what, five full scholarships a class, what could that do for the program?

CROSS - For better or worse, Gilmore is out. Pine will find another program-builder that will need some years to build them back up to contention. He'll find a Garrett-type and we'll see what he can do - but what's interesting is whether Pine may be able to get more of a commitment to funding and backing the program than Gilmore had. Jury is still out, but there seems to be some promise there.

BUCKNELL - Joe is a good guy who runs a good, clean program and also has a rep for finding diamonds in the rough like Julien' Davenport. He is probably the best gameday manager of his talent and that alone will keep him around. If they could find more consistent playmakers on offense, they'd be a PL championship winner and FCS Playoff team.

FORDHAM - The steep decline under Briener is probably the biggest shock and the bitterest disappointment in the League. I've got to think his seat is burning because at the best of times Fordham fans and (more importantly) the Fordham admin have very high expectations for their program. Moorhead is looking more and more like a once-in-a-generation coach - maybe they'll look to him for help for the next head coach.

COLGATE - Hunt is basically an extension of Biddle and he has his team contending for the title in what I consider a rebuilding year. I still think they have an excellent chance of being the PL representative in the playoffs. His seat is as cold as a Hamilton winter.

LEHIGH - Like Fordham, Lehigh has crumbled from their lofty preseason expectations and are only in the Patriot League Championship race thanks to their unlikely win at Colgate. It is not at all clear how this season will end up for Andy and his assistants. If Andy runs the table, he will have a job the next three years at least, though he'll probably have to do something on the coaching staff to get better. If he goes 4-7, 3-8 - he might be in trouble, especially if he loses to Lafayette.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

The resident curmudgeon has morphed into Dr.Bleak.
I dont have any quick and easy answer for why PL has taken a nose dive this year. But, I do realize that PL programs historically go through cycles for various reasons. The unusual fact is we all have hit a down year at the same time. PL rules dont help but causes for each team are in my opinion mostly specific to each program.

Thanks to Rich, as the sage that he is, for reminding us that "this too will pass." And thanks to LFN for providing a "glass half full" rendition of this narrative. It's unlikely that we experience a P.L.-wide collective down year quite like this again. Simply because P.L. football is composed of 7 schools, each of which is in a different stage of their unique football program cycle. But, it could happen. And we'll deal with it, institution by institution. Yes, we have perennial collective gripes, ( sub 63 scholies, redshirting, the A.I., etc. ). But, more importantly, with 5 or 6 o.o.c. games to schedule, each school has the prerogative to up or down schedule to modify the impact as they so choose. Just as they have the choice of how much money they want to put into their coaching staffs, etc. And the list of institutional compensating opportunities goes on. And I think it's really a cop out to personify the P.L., as some cop who's messing with your school's great traditions. Every potential conference affiliation has its advantages and disadvantages. Some schools figure out a path. Some don't. It's certainly possible that what made sense in joining the P.L. no longer applies to the institution's aspirations today. In reality, there's more certainty in what an individual school can change than forecasting the timing of consensus decisions at the P.L. level.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Let me counter carney's Armageddon with a different take.

LEHIGH - Like Fordham, Lehigh has crumbled from their lofty preseason expectations and are only in the Patriot League Championship race thanks to their unlikely win at Colgate. It is not at all clear how this season will end up for Andy and his assistants. If Andy runs the table, he will have a job the next three years at least, though he'll probably have to do something on the coaching staff to get better. If he goes 4-7, 3-8 - he might be in trouble, especially if he loses to Lafayette.

3-8 isn't going to happen. You'll at least beat Holy Cross and Fordham. You guys' toughest game at this point might be on the road against Bucknell, a game that will likely have title implications. Anything can happen in the Lehigh-Lafayette game, as we all know.

[LUHawker]

3-8 isn't going to happen. You'll at least beat Holy Cross and Fordham. You guys' toughest game at this point might be on the road against Bucknell, a game that will likely have title implications. Anything can happen in the Lehigh-Lafayette game, as we all know.

Lehigh isn't losing to Lafayette this year. Mark it down. LU offense very strong. LU's defense very weak, but biggest weakness is in the run-stop game (as it has been for umpteen years now), where Lafayette has no run O.

Bucknell is toughest game because it has the toughest D. Lehigh 6-5 or 5-6 IMO.

[van]

No, I haven't made the complaint you reference. However, I would say, Lehigh isn't getting enough of that caliber athlete.

Patriot League school administrators have placed their athletes, coaches, and fans in a kind of Never-Never Land. A situation that makes FCS Division-level advancement too difficult. As if the league can't quite decide what it wants . . . so, perhaps then, is misplaced. At this time, a better design would be Patriot League and Ivy League opponents exclusively. OK, 'step-up' one time, just for kicks.

For a league of schools that touts itself as highly academic and intellectual, willingly competing with one hand tied behind your back seems a little dumb, I think. Hard to rally around that.

you probably should start following Alabama football, you can rally around their commitment to football first

[RichH2]

you probably should start following Alabama football, you can rally around their commitment to football firstWell said :) :) :)

[DFW HOYA]

Some schools figure out a path. Some don't. It's certainly possible that what made sense in joining the P.L. no longer applies to the institution's aspirations today.

I'm not sure any PL member school would admit to this.

[PAllen]

It is not an excuse. It is reality. The PL schools will never be able to compete on a regular basis with the like of the CAA, MVFC or SoCon. We can, occasionally, strike pay dirt with some excellent melding of recruits and coaching. But the schools, as institutions, are not of the mindset to try and move to that level. We have some great fanatical supporters for Lehigh football, and some other sports, but we are a small minority. We think it important to compete at the highest level on the field or court, but the great majority of alums could care less and it is reflected in the giving. I would love for Lehigh to become a perennial power in the national conversation, but unless philosophies change, that aint going to happen. In terms of the PL, we ARE the gold standard. We have won more games and more championships than any school in league history. Enjoy and celebrate that. Otherwise one just ends up with a headache from banging one's head against the wall. Also, the stadium was not packed during the Small years. The team's record was barely above .500 in his tenure and average crowds were 7-8,000. It was only during that part of the Higgins era and start of Lembo that the average hit just over 10,000. The Stadium seats 16,000, with room for another 4,000 on the horseshoe. Hardly, packed.

There is no reason why Lehigh, Holy Cross, Colgate, Bucknell, and even Lafayette couldn't compete with Richmond on a regular basis. No reason why Georgetown couldn't compete on the same level as Villanova.

[Neighbor2]

you probably should start following Alabama football, you can rally around their commitment to football first


Hey, good one! Amazing, actually. I've been a 'Bama fan since Namath enrolled there. Witnessed several games in Tuscaloosa and elsewhere!

You really should relax a bit. We seem to agree, the Patriot League level of commitment to FCS football is less (by choice) than other FCS league schools. Such clarity is important to many. My expectations outside league play are too high.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Originally Posted by Colgate Raider Redux http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=2553753#post2553753)
Some schools figure out a path. Some don't. It's certainly possible that what made sense in joining the P.L. no longer applies to the institution's aspirations today.


I'm not sure any PL member school would admit to this.

A special sub group of Holy Cross alums. Not a "member school," per se. But, a group with a serious gripe about how P.L. membership has destroyed H.C. athletics. Probably not a significant % of the alumni base. But, certainly a very opinionated vocal group that feels strongly that the fit isn't there anymore. Some would even sue the P.L. for damages.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Lehigh isn't losing to Lafayette this year. Mark it down. LU offense very strong. LU's defense very weak, but biggest weakness is in the run-stop game (as it has been for umpteen years now), where Lafayette has no run O.



We held Lafayette to negative rushing yards and still lost. Holy Cross football in a nutshell.

[ngineer]

My prediction is Lehigh finishes either 6-5 (6-0) or 5-6 (5-1) and a Patriot League title. Since you guys already beat Colgate, you can afford to go 2-1 against the trio of HC, Fordham and Lafayette and STILL beat the Raiders for the auto-bid should they run the table. Bucknell has only one loss in conference at this point so you'd have to either beat them on the road 11/4 OR hope they lose twice while you guys win the other three.

I'll even project the playoff matchup for the Engineers -- @ Delaware.

Would welcome that. It's been too long from a trip to the "TUB". We had a nice rivalry30-40 years ago.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Would welcome that. It's been too long from a trip to the "TUB". We had a nice rivalry30-40 years ago.

I was there for the 2010 playoff game. Lehigh played well but a 5 minute stretch in the 3rd quarter doomed them. Devlin caught fire and that was it.

The 2005 game down there was brutally painful. The 2000 playoff game sucked because UD and GSU were the two best teams that year. Outside of those two Lehigh was Semifinal/Final worthy in 2000. The Hens were just loaded! Then there was that great victory at the Tub on homecoming in 1999!

I was at all 4 of those games. I didn't go to the 1997 game at Goodman. Lehigh nearly pulled off an epic upset that day...

[ngineer]

Lehigh to become the CAA? Not exactly. My desire is for Lehigh to face their CAA opponents with all the same tools at use in preparation. Why choose to upgrade the schedule only to compete with less ammunition? Frustrating all around. Especially for higher level potential recruits, I would imagine. Players and coaches.

Unless and until the college presidents do away with the AI and the redshirt ban, it will never happen. We will have the occasional melding of some great athletes that go into the playoffs and pull off some wins, but it will not happen with regularity unless philosophies change. The collegiate athletic landscape keeps changing and the PL has not decided to enter that terrain.

[ngineer]

No, I haven't made the complaint you reference. However, I would say, Lehigh isn't getting enough of that caliber athlete.

Patriot League school administrators have placed their athletes, coaches, and fans in a kind of Never-Never Land. A situation that makes FCS Division-level advancement too difficult. As if the league can't quite decide what it wants . . . so, perhaps then, is misplaced. At this time, a better design would be Patriot League and Ivy League opponents exclusively. OK, 'step-up' one time, just for kicks.

For a league of schools that touts itself as highly academic and intellectual, willingly competing with one hand tied behind your back seems a little dumb, I think. Hard to rally around that.

One can look at it that way. But since I played back in the early 70's, Lehigh always prided itself on "playing up" several times a year. Rather accepting the challenge than scheduling pasties. We regularly played teams like Rutgers and Delaware knowing that they were much bigger schools with more athletic assets, but it was the challenge that makes sports inticing.

[Franks Tanks]

One can look at it that way. But since I played back in the early 70's, Lehigh always prided itself on "playing up" several times a year. Rather accepting the challenge than scheduling pasties. We regularly played teams like Rutgers and Delaware knowing that they were much bigger schools with more athletic assets, but it was the challenge that makes sports inticing.

The tradition of playing up continues in 2017 by scheduling squads such as Wagner and Monmouth.

[ngineer]

The tradition of playing up continues in 2017 by scheduling squads such as Wagner and Monmouth.

First, I don't know why everyone continues to look down on Monmouth. They remember the 'Monmouth' of 20 years ago that was just beginning football. They have a lot of good athletes, now, and are on a par, if not better, athletically, with most PL schools. Wagner, I agree is a mish-mash feeling its way with alot of JuCO and graduate transfers. Plus, I didn't say "all" games were 'play ups', but we have always tried to schedule them

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Monmouth is a good team that they have a decent chance of winning the Big South and going to the FCS Playoffs. If they beat Chuck South this weekend they have an excellent chance to go 9-1 going into the final weekend - and might get an at-large bid regardless.

[Go...gate]

Though Monmouth may not be a member of the conference, it would not surprise me if they did not find their way on PL schedules three or four times a year - much as Colgate did with the Ivy for many, many years. It makes sense for Monmouth and for many PL members - MU is in our footprint and is a reasonable bus trip from all conference members.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It is worthy of mention that a good hunk of the PL's OOC woes are sue to the fact that Monmouth went 4-0 against Lehigh, Holy Cross, Lafayette and Bucknell. That doesn't excuse WTF losses like Lehigh losing to Wagner and Fordham losing to Bryant (and nearly losing to CCSU) but it is a key element of it in my mind.

[aceinthehole]

First, I don't know why everyone continues to look down on Monmouth. They remember the 'Monmouth' of 20 years ago that was just beginning football. They have a lot of good athletes, now, and are on a par, if not better, athletically, with most PL schools. Wagner, I agree is a mish-mash feeling its way with alot of JuCO and graduate transfers. Plus, I didn't say "all" games were 'play ups', but we have always tried to schedule them

Again, what is this constant and willful ignorance of NEC teams and their accomplishments.

For the record, Monmouth has yet to record a winning season vs. Big South opponents and haven't won a NEC Championship since 2004. They have never qualified for the FCS playoffs.

Wagner won the NEC in 2012 and earned a home playoff victory of PL-member Colgate.

Wagner is every bit as good of a program as Monmouth.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wagner is every bit as good of a program as Monmouth.

xlolx

[aceinthehole]

It is worthy of mention that a good hunk of the PL's OOC woes are sue to the fact that Monmouth went 4-0 against Lehigh, Holy Cross, Lafayette and Bucknell. That doesn't excuse WTF losses like Lehigh losing to Wagner and Fordham losing to Bryant (and nearly losing to CCSU) but it is a key element of it in my mind.

Why is Monmouth a "good loss" - but losing to Wagner, Bryant, and CCSU are considered "WTF"?

As recently as 2014, Bryant was a top-25 team with wins that season over Stony Brook, #23 Maine, and mighty Bucknell. Wagner was a playoff team in 2012 and beat PL champ Colgate, and although CCSU has struggled for the last 6 years, won 4 NEC titles in a 7 year span from (2004-2010).

[Go...gate]

Again, what is this constant and willful ignorance of NEC teams and their accomplishments.

For the record, Monmouth has yet to record a winning season vs. Big South opponents and haven't won a NEC Championship since 2004. They have never qualified for the FCS playoffs.

Wagner won the NEC in 2012 and earned a home playoff victory of PL-member Colgate.

Wagner is every bit as good of a program as Monmouth.

As I have said numerous times on this board, the capability of the Wagner program has not been lost on Colgate. They beat us fair and square in that 2012 play-off game. Wagner is also in the PL "footprint" and, IMO, can expect to see more OOC games with PL teams.

[Lehigh'98]

Why is Monmouth a "good loss" - but losing to Wagner, Bryant, and CCSU are considered "WTF"?

As recently as 2014, Bryant was a top-25 team with wins that season over Stony Brook, #23 Maine, and mighty Bucknell. Wagner was a playoff team in 2012 and beat PL champ Colgate, and although CCSU has struggled for the last 6 years, won 4 NEC titles in a 7 year span from (2004-2010).

It's not that Wagner can't have good teams, but since 2015 they have 6 wins over D1 opponents. That's why it's a bad loss. Not because of their program. Not everything is disrespecting the NEC.

[RichH2]

Why is Monmouth a "good loss" - but losing to Wagner, Bryant, and CCSU are considered "WTF"?

As recently as 2014, Bryant was a top-25 team with wins that season over Stony Brook, #23 Maine, and mighty Bucknell. Wagner was a playoff team in 2012 and beat PL champ Colgate, and although CCSU has struggled for the last 6 years, won 4 NEC titles in a 7 year span from (2004-2010).
History is nice but bad losses are determined by how teams are doing this year and not their history. No disrespect to NEC. It has become a very competitive league.

[aceinthehole]

So why is Columbia such a good win this year, and why isn't Harvard being exposed as a fraud in past season? Too often the quality of PL wins and losses aren't based on anything more a popularity contest. Who's hot and who's not is often what makes the PL look more favorably.

Around and around we go. It really doesn't matter to some posters - they have their favorites opponents and it is a gut reaction, not based on any real analysis.

Let's be honest, Monmouth isn't any more accomplished than Wagner on the field, but to some posters they are perceived that way because of student body, SAT scores, and acceptance rate, their former President has PL ties, or some other judgmental factoid that fits a Patriot League narrative.

Some posters have a better perspective of the NEC (mostly Colgate fans), but overall the circle-jerk that is the PL/Ivy discussions and rakings is pathetic.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's be honest, Monmouth isn't any more accomplished than Wagner on the field

xlolx

[aceinthehole]

xlolx

Exactly the analysis we come to expect from LFN, a self-proclaimed member of the FCS “media” trolling a message board.

[van]

So why is Columbia such a good win this year, and why isn't Harvard being exposed as a fraud in past season? Too often the quality of PL wins and losses aren't based on anything more a popularity contest. Who's hot and who's not is often what makes the PL look more favorably.

Around and around we go. It really doesn't matter to some posters - they have their favorites opponents and it is a gut reaction, not based on any real analysis.

Let's be honest, Monmouth isn't any more accomplished than Wagner on the field, but to some posters they are perceived that way because of student body, SAT scores, and acceptance rate, their former President has PL ties, or some other judgmental factoid that fits a Patriot League narrative.

Some posters have a better perspective of the NEC (mostly Colgate fans), but overall the circle-jerk that is the PL/Ivy discussions and rakings is pathetic.
Ha Ha, I watched both Monmouth and Wagner this year, bet the farm that if they played this Saturday Monmouth would win by 3 TDs

[aceinthehole]

It's not that Wagner can't have good teams, but since 2015 they have 6 wins over D1 opponents. That's why it's a bad loss. Not because of their program. Not everything is disrespecting the NEC.

They have also played more FBS teams in that time than any PL team or the entire Ivy League combined, but that doesn’t matter to some.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

They have also played more FBS teams in that time than any PL team or the entire Ivy League combined, but that doesn’t matter to some.

Because they need the $$$ more. I personally think pay for a beating games are pretty dumb and really don't respect those that engage in it...

[Lehigh'98]

They have also played more FBS teams in that time than any PL team or the entire Ivy League combined, but that doesn’t matter to some.

If it makes you feel any better, Wagner would probably win the PL this year if they were in it. Unless Monmouth was in it too, then they wouldn't.

[Gate83]

Wagner won the NEC in 2012 and earned a home playoff victory of PL-member Colgate.

Wagner is every bit as good of a program as Monmouth.

I was at the Wagner/Gate game in '12, that was a really good team... Big and physical, almost won the next week too. That said, a terrible place to play & that we didn't pay to play that game at home was a disgrace.

[Go...gate]

I was at the Wagner/Gate game in '12, that was a really good team... Big and physical, almost won the next week too. That said, a terrible place to play & that we didn't pay to play that game at home was a disgrace.

Agreed - Wagner had a very good club. They need to spend some money on that ballpark, though.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Bump...

Coen's seat has to be getting warmer. The fact the defensive staff hasn't been fired at this point is alarming!!

[Sader87]

Lehigh is going to win the PL this year...how does he get fired?

[NY Crusader 2010]

They have also played more FBS teams in that time than any PL team or the entire Ivy League combined, but that doesn’t matter to some.

They've also been blown out in all those games and played more D-II teams in that time than any PL team or the entire Ivy League.

I know you're stumping for Wagner specifically because they took you guys to 4OT this year and you want to feel better about that close win. Fact is Wagner is a mediocre FCS team and has been for a couple years. They had a pretty good stretch from 2012-2014 but I wouldn't put them anywhere near the same level this year as the Monmouth Hawks.

And yes, I'd say most PL fans across the board would admit that the NEC is hands down a better conference than us this year and likely to be at least on par with us in coming seasons.

Looking forward to our game against you guys on September 26th, 2020, which happens to be my sister's 30th birthday.

[ngineer]

Bump...

Coen's seat has to be getting warmer. The fact the defensive staff hasn't been fired at this point is alarming!!

Can't disagree that the heat lamps have been turned on the subject after today's embarrassment. The AD is going to have to do some real serious discussions to see if he and staff still have the player's attention, confidence and respect. With all of the mental mistakes occurring, it leads one to suspect "something" is going on and Joe needs to find out what that is.

[Sader87]

There's nothing "going on"....Lehigh is the best team (actually, Colgate is....but whatevah) in a very bad league....congrats!!!

[Lehigh'98]

There's nothing "going on"....Lehigh is the best team (actually, Colgate is....but whatevah) in a very bad league....congrats!!!

There is something going on. It's obvious to those of us that are familiar with Andy and his personality.

[RichH2]

There is something going on. It's obvious to those of us that are familiar with Andy and his personality.

No doubt at all. No fire. Prior years he would be furious at repeated level of play. Now. " proud of kids' effort". Joe has some decisions to make.

[van]

There is something going on. It's obvious to those of us that are familiar with Andy and his personality.

I took smell something amiss, wonder if we will ever know what?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Does anyone notice the correlation between key Lehigh coaches going to Elon and the rise of the Phoenix? First it was Lembo now it's Folmar's stock that continues to rise.

I was a big fan of Folmar when he was on South Mountain. He has a bright future ahead of him....

[LUHawker]

I took smell something amiss, wonder if we will ever know what?

Andy looks, acts and speaks like a defeated man and coach. His post-game comments, his presence on the SE69 Lehigh show and his demeanor on the sideline do not reflect what I would interpret as being engaged, enthusiastic and energized; quite the opposite actually.

If Joe Sterrett doesn't take some corrective action, how about John Simon? He is supposedly a big fan of football. Does he still go to the games, or has he decided that the play isn't worth his time?

[Fordham]

Odd posts here. Is there something that people know that's going on behind the scenes or just noting that he seems defeated as LUHawker's post just described?

A national search would turn up an amazing list of coaches for that job imo.

[LUHawker]

Odd posts here. Is there something that people know that's going on behind the scenes or just noting that he seems defeated as LUHawker's post just described?

A national search would turn up an amazing list of coaches for that job imo.

There have been suggestions, innuendo and rumor that something isn't quite right regarding Andy C., but nothing confirmed.

I agree that if there was a national search, Lehigh could get some excellent candidates.

[Go...gate]

Any chance of a health issue for Coen, or perhaps a health issue for one of Coen's loved ones?

[Lehigh'98]

Any chance of a health issue for Coen, or perhaps a health issue for one of Coen's loved ones?

It seems like there could be something to that. No one knows for sure though, but it's concerning. Andy has been around Lehigh football for over 20 years now and we want nothing but the best for him. Contrasting how he used to be on the sidelines and interviews to how he is now, something is not right.

[Fordham]

Ah, really hope it's not that and that he's ok or will be

[PAllen]

Does anyone notice the correlation between key Lehigh coaches going to Elon and the rise of the Phoenix? First it was Lembo now it's Folmar's stock that continues to rise.

I was a big fan of Folmar when he was on South Mountain. He has a bright future ahead of him....

Sorry, if we're going to bring in a former offensive coordinator, I'll take the one in the midwest with D-I Head Coaching experience.