Fox Sports ranks the FCS Football Conferences

[youcanbankit]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25250&stc=1
http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/ranking-the-fcs-conferences-052517

[GodHelpTheBears]

We really are the Indiana Hoosiers of FCS - hillbillies in the top conference that are terrible at football and worse than they think they should be in basketball, because of what an old coach from the 80's accomplished.

[DFW HOYA]

8. Patriot League (6 teams).

Oops..

[RichH2]

8. Patriot League (6 teams).

Oops..

Perhaps a bit higher but as a league we have yet to improve our OOC schedules and performances. Lehigh and Fordham will score bunches but will either D improve enough for us to be taken seriously post season.

[Seawolf97]

Nice to see the CAA right up there at number 2

[Bucs2016]

Seems pretty accurate.

[PAllen]

Perhaps a bit higher but as a league we have yet to improve our OOC schedules and performances. Lehigh and Fordham will score bunches but will either D improve enough for us to be taken seriously post season.

I think he means the 6 teams.

[DoWe]

Seems pretty accurate.
Agreed.

[caribbeanhen]

Nice to see the CAA right up there at number 2

Is the CAA still down?

[PaladinFan]

I think a good ranking for the SoCon. Heading into year four after the departure of their two marquee football programs that were perennial title contenders.

Had four teams in the post season last year. Conference is in a position where it is only going to keep getting stronger.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

8. Patriot League (6 teams).

Oops..

Time will tell where the league finishes this year. Now that everyone (whelp there's GTown) is up to speed with scholarships the PL has the potential to pass the Big South, Southland and OVC in time. In fact, I'd be disappointed if they don't get by at least 2 of them. The SoCon is a tweener and the Big Sky, CAA and MVC are simply better than everyone else over the long haul.

[JSUSoutherner]

Time will tell where the league finishes this year. Now that everyone (whelp there's GTown) is up to speed with scholarships the PL has the potential to pass the Big South, Southland and OVC in time. In fact, I'd be disappointed if they don't get by at least 2 of them. The SoCon is a tweener and the Big Sky, CAA and MVC are simply better than everyone else over the long haul.
The SoCon wipes the floor with the Big Sky 8 days a week.

[citdog]

The SoCon wipes the floor with the Big Sky 8 days a week.

There is no doubt about that. The SoCon should be the #2 league. All others say so. The patsy should be like 12th. JUST a smidge above the Pioneer.

[JSUSoutherner]

There is no doubt about that. The SoCon should be the #2 league. All others say so. The patsy should be like 12th. JUST a smidge above the Pioneer.
I wouldn't say that. But I also wouldn't say the CAA is head and shoulders above them either. I think it's a toss up and depends on what you rank the strength of a conference by. I think the SoCon has more depth but we haven't seen anyone in the SoCon win a quarterfinals game since Georgia Southern. In that span, 4 CAA teams have punched tickets to the Semis and beyond.

[citdog]

I wouldn't say that. But I also wouldn't say the CAA is head and shoulders above them either. I think it's a toss up and depends on what you rank the strength of a conference by. I think the SoCon has more depth but we haven't seen anyone in the SoCon win a quarterfinals game since Georgia Southern. In that span, 4 CAA teams have punched tickets to the Semis and beyond.

It's pretty easy to do when you get to play who they have played (sans JMU winning in Fargo). The South Carolina version of the bracket must not be allowed to happen again. If it is a national playoff system why must one have to navigate teams from your own State who you played in the regular year?

[JSUSoutherner]

It's pretty easy to do when you get to play who they have played (sans JMU winning in Fargo). The South Carolina version of the bracket must not be allowed to happen again. If it is a national playoff system why must one have to navigate teams from your own State who you played in the regular year?
You already know the answer to this.

[KPSUL]

It's pretty easy to do when you get to play who they have played (sans JMU winning in Fargo).

In the past 4 seasons, CAA teams have beaten playoff opponents from every conference except the consensus last place Pioneer.

[citdog]

In the past 4 seasons, CAA teams have beaten playoff opponents from every conference except the consensus last place Pioneer.

You spelled patriot league wrong.

[PAllen]

About as good as you're going to get at this point in the season.

[ngineer]

Perhaps a bit higher but as a league we have yet to improve our OOC schedules and performances. Lehigh and Fordham will score bunches but will either D improve enough for us to be taken seriously post season.

True. I would have had us one slot higher.

[Redbird 4th & short]

There is no doubt about that. The SoCon should be the #2 league. All others say so. The patsy should be like 12th. JUST a smidge above the Pioneer.

Massey composite from last season ranks in this order: MVFC, Southern, CAA, Big South, Big Sky .. other than putting Big Sky slightly ahead of Big South, I have to agree with the average of 40 polls.

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

[Redbird 4th & short]

Massey composite from last season ranks in this order: MVFC, Southern, CAA, Big South, Big Sky .. other than putting Big Sky slightly ahead of Big South, I have to agree with the average of 40 polls.

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

Interestingly, MVFC is the prohibitive #1 conference by far, ranking 1st in 37 of 40 polls on this composite .. MVFC composite rating was 26, which was 15 points of SoCon at 41, with next 3 all in the 43-49 range. The 3 polls who voted MVFC lower than #1 are: AGS at #2, Stats/SNW had us #3, and FCP had us #4. This despite having 4 playoff teams, with 3 in top 16, and 2 in top 4, and 1 in finals.

I get the regional bias that comes with an FCP like polling, but why is this poll even published anymore .. talk about blatant regional bias and homerism. It is utterly useless as polls go.

[Thumper 76]

It's pretty easy to do when you get to play who they have played (sans JMU winning in Fargo). The South Carolina version of the bracket must not be allowed to happen again. If it is a national playoff system why must one have to navigate teams from your own State who you played in the regular year?

Oh Jesus it happened once. Get back to me when it happens 4 out of 5 years.

[Sir William]

Oh Jesus it happened once. Get back to me when it happens 4 out of 5 years.

Shouldn't have happened once. Regionalization on steroids.

[citdog]

Oh Jesus it happened once. Get back to me when it happens 4 out of 5 years.

The Citadel has been a playoff team the last two years and hasn't played anyone outside of The Palmetto State.

[BadlandsGrizFan]

I think it would be interesting to compare out of every year the last 10 years how many times the Big Sky cannibalized itself in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs tho with regionalization, and basically being the only conference in the expansive western united states.

Basically is it fair to rank the conferences by saying theyve had this many in the quarterfinals or this many in the semis? Because it seems that the first two rounds are much harder for the Big Sky and to a degree the MVFC to get out of.

Ask South Dakota State how many times they've been sent to Missoula or Fargo in the first two rounds over the last decade.

[citdog]

I think it would be interesting to compare out of every year the last 10 years how many times the Big Sky cannibalized itself in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs tho with regionalization, and basically being the only conference in the expansive western united states.

Basically is it fair to rank the conferences by saying theyve had this many in the quarterfinals or this many in the semis? Because it seems that the first two rounds are much harder for the Big Sky and to a degree the MVFC to get out of.

Ask South Dakota State how many times they've been sent to Missoula or Fargo in the first two rounds over the last decade.

How many South Carolina's would fit in SD, ND, and MT? We are a small State and get screwed in the playoffs.

[Bucs2016]

It's pretty easy to do when you get to play who they have played (sans JMU winning in Fargo). The South Carolina version of the bracket must not be allowed to happen again. If it is a national playoff system why must one have to navigate teams from your own State who you played in the regular year?

You are 100% correct on that. Clustering Coastal, Citadel, CSU, Wofford against each other in 2015/2016 was just wrong. All 4 of those had an argument to be a top 10 team those years and to group them all together wasnt right.

[DoWe]

You are 100% correct on that. Clustering Coastal, Citadel, CSU, Wofford against each other in 2015/2016 was just wrong. All 4 of those had an argument to be a top 10 team those years and to group them all together wasnt right.
Although sad, it no doubt was the least costly approach, and the lca matters.

[PAllen]

The Citadel has been a playoff team the last two years and hasn't played anyone outside of The Palmetto State.

If you won more playoff games, that wouldn't be a problem.

[citdog]

If you won more playoff games, that wouldn't be a problem.

Says the fella from a league where you can go 10-1 and not get invited...

[PAllen]

Says the fella from a league where you can go 10-1 and not get invited...

Remind me again, how many playoff wins does The Citadel have?

[citdog]

Remind me again, how many playoff wins does The Citadel have?

How many touchdowns did New Hampshire score?

[JSUSoutherner]

Remind me again, how many playoff wins does The Citadel have?
Am I the only one that thinks it's funny a LEHIGH fan is playing the "but how many playoff wins do you have?" card?

[citdog]

Am I the only one that thinks it's funny a LEHIGH fan is playing the "but how many playoff wins do you have?" card?

It's le high.

[Bison56]

Am I the only one that thinks it's funny a LEHIGH fan is playing the "but how many playoff wins do you have?" card?

No

[Bucs2016]

Remind me again, how many playoff wins does The Citadel have?

There is no comparison between the Patriot league and SoCon. Gotta defend our Charleston area foes on this one. To even get to the playoffs, The Citadel over the years had to go through Marshall, App State, Ga Southern, Furman, Wofford, late 90s ETSU, and now Samford & UTC. No offense bc Loyola, Bucknell, Colgate etc are fine programs...but its not same ballpark.

And add to it when they do make it, they get shoved into the Palmetto Bracket with #8 CSU, red hot Wofford, and FBS transition team Coastal (who was #1 in nation that same season at mid season). All of whom were conference champs or co champs. Kinda a raw deal for a freakin SoCon champion.

[ST_Lawson]

How many South Carolina's would fit in SD, ND, and MT? We are a small State and get screwed in the playoffs.

But you're still nearly twice as big as SD, ND, and MT combined...if we're talking population (4.896 M vs 2.648 M). If we divided up the states into equal populations, then SDSU going to a ND or MT school is essentially all in the same state. You have the same number of FCS teams as all three states combined as well.

[Son of Eli]

Massey composite from last season ranks in this order: MVFC, Southern, CAA, Big South, Big Sky .. other than putting Big Sky slightly ahead of Big South, I have to agree with the average of 40 polls.

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm


Massey has the Ivy League rated one step above the Patriot League. The last six seasons of Ivy- Patriot contests have yielded a 45-45 record. You can't have any more parity than that. I call it a toss up. Ivy record against the Patriot League by year:





2011 7-9 (.438)
2012 8-8 (.500)
2013 8-7 (.533)
2014 7-7 (.500)
2015 9-6 (.600)
2016 6-8 (.429)

TOTAL 45-45 (.500)

[citdog]

Massey has the Ivy League rated one step above the Patriot League. The last six seasons of Ivy- Patriot contests have yielded a 45-45 record. You can't have any more parity than that. I call it a toss up. Ivy record against the Patriot League by year:




2011 7-9 (.438)
2012 8-8 (.500)
2013 8-7 (.533)
2014 7-7 (.500)
2015 9-6 (.600)
2016 6-8 (.429)

TOTAL 45-45 (.500)




The football sucks in both of those conferences equally.

[Son of Eli]

The football sucks in both of those conferences equally.


Yale will be playing Mercer and Richmond in upcoming seasons, so we'll see about that.

[citdog]

Yale will be playing Mercer and Richmond in upcoming seasons so we'll see about that.

I usually root for the alma mater of John Caldwell Calhoun.

[Son of Eli]

I usually root for the alma mater of John Caldwell Calhoun.


I hate to break it to you, but Yale has renamed its Calhoun residential college.

[citdog]

I hate to break it to you, but Yale has renamed its Calhoun residential college.

I'm glad. That great man wouldn't want his name anywhere near anything on that reservation of the constantly butthurt.

[KPSUL]

Massey composite from last season ranks in this order: MVFC, Southern, CAA, Big South, Big Sky .. other than putting Big Sky slightly ahead of Big South, I have to agree with the average of 40 polls.

http://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm

Translation: I agree completely with Massey methodology, except when it doesn't fit my personal bias.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Translation: I agree completely with Massey methodology, except when it doesn't fit my personal bias.
Massey Composite is average of 40 polls and ranking systems. What personal bias ?

[PAllen]

Am I the only one that thinks it's funny a LEHIGH fan is playing the "but how many playoff wins do you have?" card?

When it's against a fan of the bellhops in blue, it's a fair card to play.

BTW, looking at the stats, it's a fair card to play against Jacksonville State too. Keep digging folks.

[PAllen]

There is no comparison between the Patriot league and SoCon. Gotta defend our Charleston area foes on this one. To even get to the playoffs, The Citadel over the years had to go through Marshall, App State, Ga Southern, Furman, Wofford, late 90s ETSU, and now Samford & UTC. No offense bc Loyola, Bucknell, Colgate etc are fine programs...but its not same ballpark.

And add to it when they do make it, they get shoved into the Palmetto Bracket with #8 CSU, red hot Wofford, and FBS transition team Coastal (who was #1 in nation that same season at mid season). All of whom were conference champs or co champs. Kinda a raw deal for a freakin SoCon champion.

Typical Southern arrogance bred from ignorance. Loyola doesn't even have a fb program. We've played Wofford. Not recently, but you can go ahead and look up the scores. We've also played Furman in the playoffs and they kicked our butts, they were pretty good that year. Marshall, App St, and Ga Southern aren't in the SoCon and the Citadel hasn't had to play them in a long time as far as the current teams go. Besides, all of those years that The Citadel had to go through all those powerhouses to get into the playoffs, the PL didn't even participate. There is no tougher barrier to a playoff spot than a 10+ year ban on participation. Has the Socon been traditionally better than the PL? Sure, but the only real giant that remains is Furman.

I find it amusing when some folks try to wrap themselves in glory with the coattails of their sworn enemies.

[citdog]

Typical Southern arrogance bred from ignorance. Loyola doesn't even have a fb program. We've played Wofford. Not recently, but you can go ahead and look up the scores. We've also played Furman in the playoffs and they kicked our butts, they were pretty good that year. Marshall, App St, and Ga Southern aren't in the SoCon and the Citadel hasn't had to play them in a long time as far as the current teams go. Besides, all of those years that The Citadel had to go through all those powerhouses to get into the playoffs, the PL didn't even participate. There is no tougher barrier to a playoff spot than a 10+ year ban on participation. Has the Socon been traditionally better than the PL? Sure, but the only real giant that remains is Furman.

I find it amusing when some folks try to wrap themselves in glory with the coattails of their sworn enemies.

I find it amusing when uppity yankees who suck at football brag about receiving an affirmative action like undeserved bid to the National Playoffs. ETSU would have won the patsy league last year and would have been undefeated in that cute little league.

[Catamount87]

Has the Socon been traditionally better than the PL? Sure, but the only real giant that remains is Furman.


Furman the only real giant remaining in the SoCon??? It's 2017, not 1989. Furman is far from a giant in the SoCon right now. They're 27-43 since 2011 with 4 season of 4 or less wins. UTC has the "giant" crown. They've gone 47-27 in that same span with 4 seasons of 8+ wins.

[PaladinFan]

Furman the only real giant remaining in the SoCon??? It's 2017, not 1989. Furman is far from a giant in the SoCon right now. They're 27-43 since 2011 with 4 season of 4 or less wins. UTC has the "giant" crown. They've gone 47-27 in that same span with 4 seasons of 8+ wins.

The argument assumes that programs don't rise to the occasion. For instance, Marshall left and App State became a national player. One moves aside another moves up.

I would quibble with the "giant" category. Furman has hardware. UTC does not (or decidedly less of it).

[PAllen]

I find it amusing when uppity yankees who suck at football brag about receiving an affirmative action like undeserved bid to the National Playoffs. ETSU would have won the patsy league last year and would have been undefeated in that cute little league.

I didn't realize that the CAA and MVFC champs gave away playoff wins to their opponents as part of an affirmative action scheme. I was talking playoff wins, not games played.

[Bucs2016]

Typical Southern arrogance bred from ignorance. Loyola doesn't even have a fb program. We've played Wofford. Not recently, but you can go ahead and look up the scores. We've also played Furman in the playoffs and they kicked our butts, they were pretty good that year. Marshall, App St, and Ga Southern aren't in the SoCon and the Citadel hasn't had to play them in a long time as far as the current teams go. Besides, all of those years that The Citadel had to go through all those powerhouses to get into the playoffs, the PL didn't even participate. There is no tougher barrier to a playoff spot than a 10+ year ban on participation. Has the Socon been traditionally better than the PL? Sure, but the only real giant that remains is Furman.

I find it amusing when some folks try to wrap themselves in glory with the coattails of their sworn enemies.

"Southern arrogance" haha? Thats a new one. Citadel was playing App up until 2013. Hasnt been that long. And Furman is the only remaining power??? For one Wofford has an outstanding history since moving into D1.

But I'll let the SoCon guys do the rest of the talking on their behalf.

[JSUSoutherner]

When it's against a fan of the bellhops in blue, it's a fair card to play.

BTW, looking at the stats, it's a fair card to play against Jacksonville State too. Keep digging folks.

There's a reason I don't hold playoffs wins over other people's heads. We don't have many. It would make me look like an idiot (god forbid anyone think that :D) if I did.

That said, we have as many wins in the past four years as Lehigh does in the last 37 and can point to Frisco on a map. So go ahead and play it if you want. xcoffeex

I'm curious to see what you can dig up. It might even be able to make it into my signature.

[Bucs2016]

I didn't realize that the CAA and MVFC champs gave away playoff wins to their opponents as part of an affirmative action scheme. I was talking playoff wins, not games played.

Those are called "upsets".

[DFW HOYA]

Patriot League playoff records are below. The bids predominate among Lehigh and Colgate, and five teams have shared all PL titles since 1996.

Lehigh: 10 appearances, 6-10, last in 2016
Colgate: 10 appearances, 6-10 , last in 2015
Fordham: 5 appearances, 3-5, last in 2015
Lafayette: 4 appearances, 0-4, last in 2013
Holy Cross: 2 appearances, 0-2, last in 2009
Bucknell: No appearances
Georgetown: No appearances

[Thumper 76]

But you're still nearly twice as big as SD, ND, and MT combined...if we're talking population (4.896 M vs 2.648 M). If we divided up the states into equal populations, then SDSU going to a ND or MT school is essentially all in the same state. You have the same number of FCS teams as all three states combined as well.

I noticed this is being ignored. Never mind that in the six times SDSU has been in the playoffs they have one loss not in Missoula or Fargo. And one of the years they lost in Missoula they were going to be sent to Fargo in the next round. So they can use their tears somewhere else.

[JSUSoutherner]

I noticed this is being ignored. Never mind that in the six times SDSU has been in the playoffs they have one loss not in Missoula or Fargo. And one of the years they lost in Missoula they were going to be sent to Fargo in the next round. So they can use their tears somewhere else.
I didn't realize population density factored into travel costs.

That 100% explains the NCAA's need to regionalize the playoffs.

[Bucs2016]

Patriot League playoff records are below. The bids predominate among Lehigh and Colgate, and five teams have shared all PL titles since 1996.

Lehigh: 10 appearances, 6-10, last in 2016
Colgate: 10 appearances, 6-10 , last in 2015
Fordham: 5 appearances, 3-5, last in 2015
Lafayette: 4 appearances, 0-4, last in 2013
Holy Cross: 2 appearances, 0-2, last in 2009
Bucknell: No appearances
Georgetown: No appearances


Those numbers point to a great point the Citadel fan made about pairings/seeds.

Fordham for example. They have 2 playoff wins in the last few years. On paper better than The Citadel. But who did Fordham draw in the 1st round??? Sacred Heart. Both times. Meanwhile Citadel in 2015 and 2016 was a top 10 team, SoCon champ, beating an SEC school....and they draw trips to #10 Coastal, #8 Charleston Southern and get the winner of two top 15 teams last year in CSU/Wofford as their reward for 10-0 in FCS and SoCon champion.

Meanwhile....Patriot League teams will get Sacred Heart or someone and get a win.

Sorry. But Citadel or any other team down here typically gets a much tougher 1st round draw than a Patriot team. So Fordham can say they're 2-2 in playoffs in recent years and Citadel is 1-2. But Fordham got to play Sacred Heart 2x and get blown out in 2nd round. While Citadel beat #10 Coastal and lost a nail biter to #8 CSU and Quarterfinal team Wofford. So the 2-2 vs 1-2 arent really comparable.

[PAllen]

Furman the only real giant remaining in the SoCon??? It's 2017, not 1989. Furman is far from a giant in the SoCon right now. They're 27-43 since 2011 with 4 season of 4 or less wins. UTC has the "giant" crown. They've gone 47-27 in that same span with 4 seasons of 8+ wins.

Congrats to UTC on their 3 recent playoff wins, but I wouldn't give them any crown yet.

[PAllen]

Those are called "upsets".

I'm sure it upsets the "our conference is so much better than your's" crowd's argument. I mean, if we don't really belong and are only there as an affirmative action case, then why does Lehigh have a habit of knocking off the best teams in the best conferences come playoff time?

[PAllen]

Those numbers point to a great point the Citadel fan made about pairings/seeds.

Fordham for example. They have 2 playoff wins in the last few years. On paper better than The Citadel. But who did Fordham draw in the 1st round??? Sacred Heart. Both times. Meanwhile Citadel in 2015 and 2016 was a top 10 team, SoCon champ, beating an SEC school....and they draw trips to #10 Coastal, #8 Charleston Southern and get the winner of two top 15 teams last year in CSU/Wofford as their reward for 10-0 in FCS and SoCon champion.

Meanwhile....Patriot League teams will get Sacred Heart or someone and get a win.

Sorry. But Citadel or any other team down here typically gets a much tougher 1st round draw than a Patriot team. So Fordham can say they're 2-2 in playoffs in recent years and Citadel is 1-2. But Fordham got to play Sacred Heart 2x and get blown out in 2nd round. While Citadel beat #10 Coastal and lost a nail biter to #8 CSU and Quarterfinal team Wofford. So the 2-2 vs 1-2 arent really comparable.

And Lehigh's wins are against? We're typically set against either the CAA champ or the MVFC champ, usually followed by the other in the next round. So cry me a river about the typical SoCon at large draw.

You are right though, the 6-10 and 2-5 aren't really on the same level. But I guess the Citadel got to play some really good teams during the regular season for all of those years.

[Bucs2016]

I'm sure it upsets the "our conference is so much better than your's" crowd's argument. I mean, if we don't really belong and are only there as an affirmative action case, then why does Lehigh have a habit of knocking off the best teams in the best conferences come playoff time?

A "habit"? How many times has it happened? I see 2 playoff wins in 15 years. And man...thats barely better than my team! And our history is almost non existent. A "habit" needs to happen more often than not.

[DFW HOYA]

Those numbers point to a great point the Citadel fan made about pairings/seeds.

Fordham for example. They have 2 playoff wins in the last few years. On paper better than The Citadel. But who did Fordham draw in the 1st round??? Sacred Heart. Both times. Meanwhile Citadel in 2015 and 2016 was a top 10 team, SoCon champ, beating an SEC school....and they draw trips to #10 Coastal, #8 Charleston Southern and get the winner of two top 15 teams last year in CSU/Wofford as their reward for 10-0 in FCS and SoCon champion.

Meanwhile....Patriot League teams will get Sacred Heart or someone and get a win.


That's a function of playoff regionalization. For many years, PL teams routinely got paired up with the A-10/CAA when that was the only only northeastern conference in the playoffs. Maybe the SoCon will see a Big South entrant along the way, or even Davidson if it surprised absolutely everyone and won the Pioneer bid.

[PAllen]

A "habit"? How many times has it happened? I see 2 playoff wins in 15 years. And man...thats barely better than my team! And our history is almost non existent. A "habit" needs to happen more often than not.

Lehigh's 6 wins have come against 3 CAA/A-10 champs, 2 MVFC/Gateway champs, and 1 OVC champ (although that one is ancient and we did lose to EKU in the final)

[Bucs2016]

Lehigh's 6 wins have come against 3 CAA/A-10 champs, 2 MVFC/Gateway champs, and 1 OVC champ (although that one is ancient and we did lose to EKU in the final)

Yes but all but 2 are before 2002. Which is fine. But it seems we're mostly talking recent history. And a "habit" needs more than 2 in 15 years. I respect Lehigh football a lot. But truth is you guys just have a relatively easy route to the playoffs. And so do we now that Coastal and Liberty are FBS so Im in no shape to knock that.

[JSUSoutherner]

And Lehigh's wins are against? We're typically set against either the CAA champ or the MVFC champ, usually followed by the other in the next round. So cry me a river about the typical SoCon at large draw.

You are right though, the 6-10 and 2-5 aren't really on the same level. But I guess the Citadel got to play some really good teams during the regular season for all of those years.
Oh my god. You're still trying.


Keep shoveling, buddy. xlolx

[Bucs2016]

You are right though, the 6-10 and 2-5 aren't really on the same level. But I guess the Citadel got to play some really good teams during the regular season for all of those years.

Yes they did. And thats why they have been in the playoffs far less times than Lehigh. Because of the conference they play in. You gotta make the playoffs to win a playoff game. And for most of its history, the SoCon was the best FCS conference and arguably still is, at least 2nd or 3rd.

[Thumper 76]

I didn't realize population density factored into travel costs.

That 100% explains the NCAA's need to regionalize the playoffs.

It's going to make a huge difference when it comes to available teams to play in the playoffs is what I was getting at. Using the "well we're in the same state and Montana and NDSU arent" is a poor argument. Especially considering in the two years they had the SC teams play in a mini regional they didn't have a repeat of the prior years playoff opponents.

[ST_Lawson]

I didn't realize population density factored into travel costs.

That 100% explains the NCAA's need to regionalize the playoffs.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but really...it does. Population density feeds directly into the number of universities in the area/region. The more people you have in an area, the more universities you have, and the more likely you'll have a team in the playoffs in your area. There's a reason why a map of US population density (like this (http://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/89/71789-004-88879E35.gif)) looks so similar to a map of FCS teams (a few years out of date, but you get the idea (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/FCS_map_2011.png)) or really, just about any map involving numbers of people (https://xkcd.com/1138/).

If you have a playoff team in a sparsely populated area, you likely are not going to have as many other playoff schools to choose from to send them to in that area.

Regionalization sucks, and I think that really they should seed 16 teams to help mitigate that, but it does save money.

[JSUSoutherner]

It's going to make a huge difference when it comes to available teams to play in the playoffs is what I was getting at. Using the "well we're in the same state and Montana and NDSU arent" is a poor argument. Especially considering in the two years they had the SC teams play in a mini regional they didn't have a repeat of the prior years playoff opponents.

I understand that. I was going more for "the entire idea of regionalization is just the NCAAs way of being greedy and teams should be seeded based on performance not by who they are near".

I think its garbage for the Midwest teams, the SC teams, and all the others that get lumped into a group.

But you know, it's going to be garbage for a while because I doubt the NCAA is keen to change their tune and if we really want to push for a change saying "you guys shouldn't complain because we have it worse" or whatnot isn't helping. We should have as many voices complaining about it as we can find. Maybe one day there will be enough for the NCAA to listen.

[ST_Lawson]

I understand that. I was going more for "the entire idea of regionalization is just the NCAAs way of being greedy and teams should be seeded based on performance not by who they are near".

I think its garbage for the Midwest teams, the SC teams, and all the others that get lumped into a group.

But you know, it's going to be garbage for a while because I doubt the NCAA is keen to change their tune and if we really want to push for a change saying "you guys shouldn't complain because we have it worse" or whatnot isn't helping. We should have as many voices complaining about it as we can find. Maybe one day there will be enough for the NCAA to listen.

https://i.imgur.com/14pkfzF.png

[PAllen]

Oh my god. You're still trying.


Keep shoveling, buddy. xlolx


Win another playoff game, then we'll talk. :D

[PaladinFan]

I understand that. I was going more for "the entire idea of regionalization is just the NCAAs way of being greedy and teams should be seeded based on performance not by who they are near".

I think its garbage for the Midwest teams, the SC teams, and all the others that get lumped into a group.

But you know, it's going to be garbage for a while because I doubt the NCAA is keen to change their tune and if we really want to push for a change saying "you guys shouldn't complain because we have it worse" or whatnot isn't helping. We should have as many voices complaining about it as we can find. Maybe one day there will be enough for the NCAA to listen.

I say just argue for a rule that prohibits interconference matchups until, say, round 3.

I don't think that it would be terribly difficult.

[PAllen]

Yes but all but 2 are before 2002. Which is fine. But it seems we're mostly talking recent history. And a "habit" needs more than 2 in 15 years. I respect Lehigh football a lot. But truth is you guys just have a relatively easy route to the playoffs. And so do we now that Coastal and Liberty are FBS so Im in no shape to knock that.

Don't know what happened to my reply, but I'll summarize:

If 15 years ago is ancient, then 20+ certainly is. Not arguing appearances, as those can be deceiving, plus all those Marshall years, the PL was in a self imposed playoff ban, so that's a bit tougher to get a spot. Regionalization means that the PL champ plays the CAA Champ (except when they're sent out west), and the Socon gets the Big South as an openner. Complaining because you've only played regionally when making the playoffs for two years and never winning more than your first game deserves a call out (especially when it's all in fun). Oh, and playing teams you've already played in the regular season before the semis sucks.

[JSUSoutherner]

I say just argue for a rule that prohibits interconference matchups until, say, round 3.
That has potential to still screw a lot of teams. Honestly, I'm not sure how you could implement a system devoid of regionalization short of drawing the at-large teams out of a hat. It's one of those things that sounds great in theory but difficult in practice. You're still going to have plenty of regional games any way you swing it.

[Gangtackle11]

Patriot League in FCS playoffs since 2010:
2010:
Lehigh 14 UNI 10
Delaware 42 Lehigh 20

2011:
Lehigh 40 Towson 38
NDSU 24 Lehigh 0

2012:
Wagner 31 Colgate 20

2013:
UNH 45 Lafayette 7
Fordham 37 SHU 27
Towson 48 Fordham 28

2014:
Fordham 44 Sacred Heart 22
UNH 44 Fordham 19

2015:
Chattanooga 50 Fordham 20
Colgate 27 UNH 6
Colgate 44 JMU 38
SHSU 48 Colgate 21

2016:
UNH 64 Lehigh 21

Patriot League is 6-9 overall in FCS playoffs.
1-1 MVFC
0-1 Southland
0-1 Southern
3-5 CAA
2-1 NEC

[Bucs2016]

Don't know what happened to my reply, but I'll summarize:

If 15 years ago is ancient, then 20+ certainly is. Not arguing appearances, as those can be deceiving, plus all those Marshall years, the PL was in a self imposed playoff ban, so that's a bit tougher to get a spot. Regionalization means that the PL champ plays the CAA Champ (except when they're sent out west), and the Socon gets the Big South as an openner. Complaining because you've only played regionally when making the playoffs for two years and never winning more than your first game deserves a call out (especially when it's all in fun). Oh, and playing teams you've already played in the regular season before the semis sucks.

It doesnt deserve a "call out" when hes 100% right about his point.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Patriot League in FCS playoffs since 2010:
2010:
Lehigh 14 UNI 10
Delaware 42 Lehigh 20

2011:
Lehigh 40 Towson 38
NDSU 24 Lehigh 0

2012:
Wagner 31 Colgate 20

2013:
UNH 45 Lafayette 7
Fordham 37 SHU 27
Towson 48 Fordham 28

2014:
Fordham 44 Sacred Heart 22
UNH 44 Fordham 19

2015:
Chattanooga 50 Fordham 20
Colgate 27 UNH 6
Colgate 44 JMU 38
SHSU 48 Colgate 21

2016:
UNH 64 Lehigh 21

Patriot League is 6-9 overall in FCS playoffs.
1-1 MVFC
0-1 Southland
0-1 Southern
3-5 CAA
2-1 NEC

Not bad considering only two were at home.

Anyone know the average winning % for road teams in the playoffs. I have to believe it's about 20%?

[mango433]

I say just argue for a rule that prohibits interconference matchups until, say, round 3.

I don't think that it would be terribly difficult.

Which is conveniently what happened to SDSU this past year.

[Thumper 76]

I understand that. I was going more for "the entire idea of regionalization is just the NCAAs way of being greedy and teams should be seeded based on performance not by who they are near".

I think its garbage for the Midwest teams, the SC teams, and all the others that get lumped into a group.

But you know, it's going to be garbage for a while because I doubt the NCAA is keen to change their tune and if we really want to push for a change saying "you guys shouldn't complain because we have it worse" or whatnot isn't helping. We should have as many voices complaining about it as we can find. Maybe one day there will be enough for the NCAA to listen.

You're right. However, since SDSU fans catch **** all the time for being mad about a worse situation and being told to stop their whining etc, I'm not the most sympathetic to other teams in a similar but lesser so situation. I mean, at least with the teams they get matched with in SC they have a chance to outbid them. Even with our new stadium if we aren't a seed we get paired up with the two highest bidding teams in the country, almost every, damn, year. And that's looking past how tough of home environments those are in the playoffs. So sorry I don't have a lot of sympathy for something that only happened two years in a row, didn't repeat the same playoff matchup that year, and were against teams that were feasible to outbid for home games. xcoffeex

[Thumper 76]

Which is conveniently what happened to SDSU this past year.
Funny how that happens isn't it? xlolx

For some perspective for people, SDSU is 4-6 in the playoffs. Against teams not named NDSU or Montana they are 4-1. It's is what it is and There's no changing it. I'm tired of being pissed about it.

[Professor Chaos]

Funny how that happens isn't it? xlolx

For some perspective for people, SDSU is 4-6 in the playoffs. Against teams not named NDSU or Montana they are 4-1. It's is what it is and There's no changing it. I'm tired of being pissed about it.
You know, if SDSU had just beaten Illinois St in '16 and WIU in the season finale of '15.... xsmiley_wix

[mango433]

You know, if SDSU had just beaten Illinois St in '15 and WIU in the season finale of '14.... xsmiley_wix

You shut your mouth

[JSUSoutherner]

You're right. However, since SDSU fans catch **** all the time for being mad about a worse situation and being told to stop their whining etc, I'm not the most sympathetic to other teams in a similar but lesser so situation. I mean, at least with the teams they get matched with in SC they have a chance to outbid them. Even with our new stadium if we aren't a seed we get paired up with the two highest bidding teams in the country, almost every, damn, year. And that's looking past how tough of home environments those are in the playoffs. So sorry I don't have a lot of sympathy for something that only happened two years in a row, didn't repeat the same playoff matchup that year, and were against teams that were feasible to outbid for home games. xcoffeex

#JackrabbitLivesMatter

[Thumper 76]

You shut your whore mouth
FIFY

#JackrabbitLivesMatter

WAIT TILL I HOLD MY FREEWAY PROTEST

[Catamount87]

Congrats to UTC on their 3 recent playoff wins, but I wouldn't give them any crown yet.

My comment is more about your lack of knowledge of the SoCon while you present yourself as some well informed pundit. You called Furman the only real giant remaining in the SoCon. Yet they've really struggled the last 6 years. This only shows what little you know.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'm sure it upsets the "our conference is so much better than your's" crowd's argument. I mean, if we don't really belong and are only there as an affirmative action case, then why does Lehigh have a habit of knocking off the best teams in the best conferences come playoff time?

I'm really torn on the playoffs if Lehigh can't host. If they refuse to host or are incapable than I see no reason to participate. I think it's disrespectful to the student-athletes to force them to hit the road as a reward for a great season. They have the facility and money to get either add or rent lights. There's simply no excuse to play on the road.

The only other caveat with Lehigh's playoff record is they have a habit of running in either the national champ or runner-up. They lost by 6 to eventual champ UMass in '98 in the quarterfinals and by 1 to JMU in '04 and by 24 to NDSU in '11. There's also losses to runner-up Furman in '01 and Delaware in '10. So when you're losing to those teams there's not much you can do. No one is saying Lehigh has been the best team in the country over that period. At most in '98, '01 and '11 they were title game contenders with a better draw imo. Last year was easily Lehigh's worst playoff performance. Which is weird because (outside of potentially Hofstra in '01) it's the only time there were the betting favorite.

At the end of the day they need to get back to the playoffs more. A stronger PL means a better case for an at large. The 2012 team was more than capable of winning a game or two had they got in. This is the year to do some damage if they can get a home game. Lehigh has some legit big time FCS talent on offense this year. Their skill guys are very EWU like. The problem remains recruiting difference makers on D. They need a Martucci, Morgan, Chagani, Owens etc along the DL and an Abduhl Byron in the secondary. Lehigh had a run of several first team TSN All-American's during their late 90's early '00's run.

[Bisonator]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/washington-state-fan-popcorn.gif

[PAllen]

I'm really torn on the playoffs if Lehigh can't host. If they refuse to host or are incapable than I see no reason to participate. I think it's disrespectful to the student-athletes to force them to hit the road as a reward for a great season. They have the facility and money to get either add or rent lights. There's simply no excuse to play on the road.

The only other caveat with Lehigh's playoff record is they have a habit of running in either the national champ or runner-up. They lost by 6 to eventual champ UMass in '98 in the quarterfinals and by 1 to JMU in '04 and by 24 to NDSU in '11. There's also losses to runner-up Furman in '01 and Delaware in '10. So when you're losing to those teams there's not much you can do. No one is saying Lehigh has been the best team in the country over that period. At most in '98, '01 and '11 they were title game contenders with a better draw imo. Last year was easily Lehigh's worst playoff performance. Which is weird because (outside of potentially Hofstra in '01) it's the only time there were the betting favorite.

At the end of the day they need to get back to the playoffs more. A stronger PL means a better case for an at large. The 2012 team was more than capable of winning a game or two had they got in. This is the year to do some damage if they can get a home game. Lehigh has some legit big time FCS talent on offense this year. Their skill guys are very EWU like. The problem remains recruiting difference makers on D. They need a Martucci, Morgan, Chagani, Owens etc along the DL and an Abduhl Byron in the secondary. Lehigh had a run of several first team TSN All-American's during their late 90's early '00's run.

Also unsure about playoff participation going forward. I find the whole light thing to be a completely artificial barrier favoring certain teams. At some point it becomes nothing more than a money race to raise the price of admission to the party, and I feel that's where we are. As far as this year goes, until LU's D learns how to tackle, we won't be making too much noise in the playoffs. There are only so many Towson State track meets you can win in a row.

[PAllen]

My comment is more about your lack of knowledge of the SoCon while you present yourself as some well informed pundit. You called Furman the only real giant remaining in the SoCon. Yet they've really struggled the last 6 years. This only shows what little you know.

So, keeper of all FCS knowledge and wisdom, who would you list as the current giants of the SoCon who are on the same level as the Ga Southerns, App Sts, and Marshalls of old? I say Furman (who is definitely in a down spell, as all programs go through), you say that shows how little I know, so what's your list?

[Fordham]

Those numbers point to a great point the Citadel fan made about pairings/seeds.

Fordham for example. They have 2 playoff wins in the last few years. On paper better than The Citadel. But who did Fordham draw in the 1st round??? Sacred Heart. Both times. Meanwhile Citadel in 2015 and 2016 was a top 10 team, SoCon champ, beating an SEC school....and they draw trips to #10 Coastal, #8 Charleston Southern and get the winner of two top 15 teams last year in CSU/Wofford as their reward for 10-0 in FCS and SoCon champion.

Meanwhile....Patriot League teams will get Sacred Heart or someone and get a win.

Sorry. But Citadel or any other team down here typically gets a much tougher 1st round draw than a Patriot team. So Fordham can say they're 2-2 in playoffs in recent years and Citadel is 1-2. But Fordham got to play Sacred Heart 2x and get blown out in 2nd round. While Citadel beat #10 Coastal and lost a nail biter to #8 CSU and Quarterfinal team Wofford. So the 2-2 vs 1-2 arent really comparable. agreed. I don't think (m)any Fordham fans would disagree at all. That was really a function of the move to a 24 team field. Two things happened when that took place. The NEC champ got a bid and most of those schools are in our neck of the woods. Plus, we had a much better shot at an at-large with the add'l teams. I'm pretty sure we were not conference champs in both of those Sacred Heart match ups. Prior to that there was pretty much one PL representative and we seemed to always draw CAA champs.

[JSUSoutherner]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/washington-state-fan-popcorn.gif
I like this gif because it's always a reminder that Troy sucks.

[jmufan999]

I'm really torn on the playoffs if Lehigh can't host. If they refuse to host or are incapable than I see no reason to participate. I think it's disrespectful to the student-athletes to force them to hit the road as a reward for a great season.

if only it were possible to win a national title without playing a home playoff game. if only some school had done that to set a precedent! that would be great, if it were the case. but alas... impossible.

[PAllen]

if only it were possible to win a national title without playing a home playoff game. if only some school had done that to set a precedent! that would be great, if it were the case. but alas... impossible.

Oh, a couple have, and those were some really special teams. One of which came a 5th down away from losing in the first round away game though ;).

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Summertime... and the reading is easy...xcoffeex

[jmufan999]

Oh, a couple have, and those were some really special teams.

pretty sure only one school has done that. did I miss a 2nd one?

[PAllen]

Summertime... and the reading is easy...xcoffeex

A time when everyone's opinion on the season is 100% supported by the available facts. Hey, everyone is undefeated headed into week one.

[Bucs2016]

So, keeper of all FCS knowledge and wisdom, who would you list as the current giants of the SoCon who are on the same level as the Ga Southerns, App Sts, and Marshalls of old? I say Furman (who is definitely in a down spell, as all programs go through), you say that shows how little I know, so what's your list?

That's hard to say because anytime a major team moves up it leaves a void. That void WILL be filled but it will be filled by teams who become as good on the field, but without the history the last team had. So lately Citadel, UTC, Samford, Wofford have all been in the top 15 range. And they have filled that void. Its only a matter time before 1 or 2 hit a hot streak and do what GSU or App did. I honestly felt like the next App State type run down here would eventually be done by Coastal Carolina but they decided to go FBS.

[KPSUL]

Patriot League in FCS playoffs since 2010:

2015:

Colgate 27 UNH 6


Correction:
Colgate 27, UNH 20

Jeez try to get it right, the real score was embarrassing enough!

[citdog]

Y'all are welcome! My job is done in this thread.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/66/fb/ce/66fbce33de7cc030c45cee1bdb3419a3.jpg

[KPSUL]

One thing has been conclusively proven in this thread. If the NCAA awarded a championship trophy for debating untenable positions, Patriot Leaguers would be the perennial winners!!

[Bucs2016]

Y'all are welcome! My job is done in this thread.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/66/fb/ce/66fbce33de7cc030c45cee1bdb3419a3.jpg

Chipper Jones???? Im with ya on the Braves but I assumed you'd be a John Rocker man.

[JSUSoutherner]

One thing has been conclusively proven in this thread. If the NCAA awarded a championship trophy for debating untenable positions, Patriot Leaguers would be the perennial winners!!
I don't know. I bet some of Chattown's arguments could give them a run for their money. Would make for an entertaining championship game. :D

[Go...gate]

I'm really torn on the playoffs if Lehigh can't host. If they refuse to host or are incapable than I see no reason to participate. I think it's disrespectful to the student-athletes to force them to hit the road as a reward for a great season. They have the facility and money to get either add or rent lights. There's simply no excuse to play on the road.

The only other caveat with Lehigh's playoff record is they have a habit of running in either the national champ or runner-up. They lost by 6 to eventual champ UMass in '98 in the quarterfinals and by 1 to JMU in '04 and by 24 to NDSU in '11. There's also losses to runner-up Furman in '01 and Delaware in '10. So when you're losing to those teams there's not much you can do. No one is saying Lehigh has been the best team in the country over that period. At most in '98, '01 and '11 they were title game contenders with a better draw imo. Last year was easily Lehigh's worst playoff performance. Which is weird because (outside of potentially Hofstra in '01) it's the only time there were the betting favorite.

At the end of the day they need to get back to the playoffs more. A stronger PL means a better case for an at large. The 2012 team was more than capable of winning a game or two had they got in. This is the year to do some damage if they can get a home game. Lehigh has some legit big time FCS talent on offense this year. Their skill guys are very EWU like. The problem remains recruiting difference makers on D. They need a Martucci, Morgan, Chagani, Owens etc along the DL and an Abduhl Byron in the secondary. Lehigh had a run of several first team TSN All-American's during their late 90's early '00's run.

Do any other Lehigh teams play at Goodman, such as lacrosse?

[PAllen]

That's hard to say because anytime a major team moves up it leaves a void. That void WILL be filled but it will be filled by teams who become as good on the field, but without the history the last team had. So lately Citadel, UTC, Samford, Wofford have all been in the top 15 range. And they have filled that void. Its only a matter time before 1 or 2 hit a hot streak and do what GSU or App did. I honestly felt like the next App State type run down here would eventually be done by Coastal Carolina but they decided to go FBS.

So your answer is that the SoCon currently has no one of the caliber of the greats who have left, but probably will in the future. Got it.

[PAllen]

Do any other Lehigh teams play at Goodman, such as lacrosse?

They've just recently started playing a few men's lacrosse games at Goodman. When Lehigh hosted Maryland in the first round of the Mens Lax tourney a few years ago, the players decided to stay with their "home turf" of the lacrosse stadium which is much much smaller (but has lights BTW). It was a bit of an embarrassment as the facility was way too small for that game or crowd. Otherwise, I think Goodman is only used regularly by a professional soccer team.

[Lehigh'98]

Another offseason PL hijack complete. Nice work fellas.

[Bucs2016]

So your answer is that the SoCon currently has no one of the caliber of the greats who have left, but probably will in the future. Got it.

No. What Im saying is- are The Citadel, Wofford and Samford as good today as App & GSU were in say 2002, 2003, etc? I argue YES...they just havent won NCs yet. Its been the NDSU and JMU show lately. Plus Coastal starting football and CSU really getting their program together drained a lot of high level FCS players away from teams in the SoCon area.

But yes...I think the 2016 10-0 SoCon champ Citadel could've gone toe to toe with those App State national champion teams. I think them and Wofford were good enough to beat anyone on any day, but just lost. Leagues in FCS tend to fill the voids when schools move up to FBS. I think the SoCon has and now the Big South will have to. Just have to win hardware to validate it, and for now, NDSU, JMU, SHSU, JSU etc are loaded and are leading FCS for a bit.

[Go...gate]

They've just recently started playing a few men's lacrosse games at Goodman. When Lehigh hosted Maryland in the first round of the Mens Lax tourney a few years ago, the players decided to stay with their "home turf" of the lacrosse stadium which is much much smaller (but has lights BTW). It was a bit of an embarrassment as the facility was way too small for that game or crowd. Otherwise, I think Goodman is only used regularly by a professional soccer team.

It might be worth the investment. I believe it has been a good thing for Andy Kerr Stadium (though oldtimers like still prefer our 1:00pm kick-offs). The kids seem to enjoy the night games as more of an "event". Also, you can play the occasional major soccer or lacrosse game there. I love Goodman, especially in the fall colors.

[Go...gate]

One thing has been conclusively proven in this thread. If the NCAA awarded a championship trophy for debating untenable positions, Patriot Leaguers would be the perennial winners!!

All that forensic training, further enhanced by a multitude of nights up shooting the bull over an adult beverage or three.... xthumbsupx

[Bucs2016]

It might be worth the investment. I believe it has been a good thing for Andy Kerr Stadium (though oldtimers like still prefer our 1:00pm kick-offs). The kids seem to enjoy the night games as more of an "event". Also, you can play the occasional major soccer or lacrosse game there. I love Goodman, especially in the fall colors.

OMG would you Yankees take that lacrosse and soccer crap out of the football forum?!!! Whats next, yall gonna suggest barbecue Tofu and vegan cauliflower fake mac & cheese for tailgating at a rowing event? Yuck!

[citdog]

MENS lacrosse? That's an ACTUAL thing?

[PaladinFan]

No. What Im saying is- are The Citadel, Wofford and Samford as good today as App & GSU were in say 2002, 2003, etc? I argue YES...they just havent won NCs yet. Its been the NDSU and JMU show lately. Plus Coastal starting football and CSU really getting their program together drained a lot of high level FCS players away from teams in the SoCon area.

But yes...I think the 2016 10-0 SoCon champ Citadel could've gone toe to toe with those App State national champion teams. I think them and Wofford were good enough to beat anyone on any day, but just lost. Leagues in FCS tend to fill the voids when schools move up to FBS. I think the SoCon has and now the Big South will have to. Just have to win hardware to validate it, and for now, NDSU, JMU, SHSU, JSU etc are loaded and are leading FCS for a bit.

I do think teams elevate to fill the void as they have always done. I'm not sure that anyone is as "good" considering the glut of football programs in the south that didn't exist 15-20 years ago.

This is just my opinion, but the App/GSU/Furman teams on the mid-2000s would beat every current SoCon squad by 3 scores.

[citdog]

I do think teams elevate to fill the void as they have always done. I'm not sure that anyone is as "good" considering the glut of football programs in the south that didn't exist 15-20 years ago.

This is just my opinion, but the App/GSU/Furman teams on the mid-2000s would beat every current SoCon squad by 3 scores.

furman sucks. Y'all couldn't beat us THEN! 10-9 ring a bell fag?

[PaladinFan]

furman sucks. Y'all couldn't beat us THEN! 10-9 ring a bell fag?

That 2003 team had perhaps be best FCS defense I've seen. Opponents averaged 14.1 ppg against that group and the team went 6-5. You have to have a pretty bad offense when the defense nearly pitches a shutout every week and you still lost 5 games.

Besides, you missed my point. The point is not that those teams never lost. They clearly did. My argument is that the "big three" of the mid-2000s would handily beat the current crop of SoCon programs. Can you imagine what Ingle Martin or Armanti Edwards would do to Samford's wet paper towel defense?

[Catamount87]

So, keeper of all FCS knowledge and wisdom, who would you list as the current giants of the SoCon who are on the same level as the Ga Southerns, App Sts, and Marshalls of old? I say Furman (who is definitely in a down spell, as all programs go through), you say that shows how little I know, so what's your list?

Bucs2016 and PaladinFan pretty much summed it up quite well. GSU and ASU leaving created a void that's slowly been filled by other teams. UTC definitely has risen to the occasion over the last 6 years. However, parity has meant that in any given year the top dog could be one of several teams. What has made the SoCon really interesting since the GSU/ASU departure has been when other teams got hot, The Citadel and Samford in 2015 and 2016, WCU in 2014 and 2105, Wofford, who's always been a strong team and a constant threat. Shoot, even the midpack teams have shown they can't be taken lightly. Mercer definitely has shown they can play and can't be overlooked by anyone. The SoCon's strength parity definitely showed in 2016 with 4 SoCon teams making the playoffs.

However, saying Furman is the remaining giant is crazy. Sadly, they've been a shell of their former glory and in no way could be considered a giant, 27-43 the last 6 years and home attendance at or near the bottom of the SoCon, 5,771 in 2016. The entire SoCon does look for and honestly expects them to rebound in 2017. (I hope so because it makes the SoCon that much more interesting and fun to watch.) But in no way does the road to SoCon glory go through Greenville, SC.

[Bucs2016]

MENS lacrosse? That's an ACTUAL thing?

Its those Northerners man. They're into some weird stuff.

[Bucs2016]

Bucs2016 and PaladinFan pretty much summed it up quite well. GSU and ASU leaving created a void that's slowly been filled by other teams. UTC definitely has risen to the occasion over the last 6 years. However, parity has meant that in any given year the top dog could be one of several teams. What has made the SoCon really interesting since the GSU/ASU departure has been when other teams got hot, The Citadel and Samford in 2015 and 2016, WCU in 2014 and 2105, Wofford, who's always been a strong team and a constant threat. Shoot, even the midpack teams have shown they can't be taken lightly. Mercer definitely has shown they can play and can't be overlooked by anyone. The SoCon's strength parity definitely showed in 2016 with 4 SoCon teams making the playoffs.

However, saying Furman is the remaining giant is crazy. Sadly, they've been a shell of their former glory and in no way could be considered a giant, 27-43 the last 6 years and home attendance at or near the bottom of the SoCon, 5,771 in 2016. The entire SoCon does look for and honestly expects them to rebound in 2017. (I hope so because it makes the SoCon that much more interesting and fun to watch.) But in no way does the road to SoCon glory go through Greenville, SC.

Well said. It has been fun to watch. I think Furman is about to rise up big time. That DC they hired from us can shut down option teams better than anyone in FCS. And considering the SoCons top 2 are option teams, its obvious why they hired him.

We are about to go through the same thing in the Big South w Liberty and Coastal leaving, and already having lost Stoney Brook. CSU is gonna be the favorite in the short run but we expect Kennesaw St to fill the void very soon, and we really think North Alabama is gonna be a monster in FCS when they join in 2019. But if there was EVER a time for GWU or PC to make a move its now.

[citdog]

Bucs2016 and PaladinFan pretty much summed it up quite well. GSU and ASU leaving created a void that's slowly been filled by other teams. UTC definitely has risen to the occasion over the last 6 years. However, parity has meant that in any given year the top dog could be one of several teams. What has made the SoCon really interesting since the GSU/ASU departure has been when other teams got hot, The Citadel and Samford in 2015 and 2016, WCU in 2014 and 2105, Wofford, who's always been a strong team and a constant threat. Shoot, even the midpack teams have shown they can't be taken lightly. Mercer definitely has shown they can play and can't be overlooked by anyone. The SoCon's strength parity definitely showed in 2016 with 4 SoCon teams making the playoffs.

However, saying Furman is the remaining giant is crazy. Sadly, they've been a shell of their former glory and in no way could be considered a giant, 27-43 the last 6 years and home attendance at or near the bottom of the SoCon, 5,771 in 2016. The entire SoCon does look for and honestly expects them to rebound in 2017. (I hope so because it makes the SoCon that much more interesting and fun to watch.) But in no way does the road to SoCon glory go through Greenville, SC.

Yeah what you say is true except for the part where 'western carolina has done anything but suck.

[KPSUL]

No. What Im saying is- are The Citadel, Wofford and Samford as good today as App & GSU were in say 2002, 2003, etc? I argue YES...they just havent won NCs yet. Its been the NDSU and JMU show lately. Plus Coastal starting football and CSU really getting their program together drained a lot of high level FCS players away from teams in the SoCon area.

But yes...I think the 2016 10-0 SoCon champ Citadel could've gone toe to toe with those App State national champion teams. I think them and Wofford were good enough to beat anyone on any day, but just lost. Leagues in FCS tend to fill the voids when schools move up to FBS. I think the SoCon has and now the Big South will have to. Just have to win hardware to validate it, and for now, NDSU, JMU, SHSU, JSU etc are loaded and are leading FCS for a bit.

Instead of "let's say 2002 and 2003", how about 1999 and 2000? Or how about 2005-2007? During the 10 year period 1999 - 2008, between them, Georgia Southern and App. State won 5 of the 10 National Championship. Since they left the conference, no SOCON team has gotten past the Quarterfinals. The Citadel has not even got out of the state of South Carolina.

[Bucs2016]

Instead of "let's say 2002 and 2003", how about 1999 and 2000? Or how about 2005-2007? During the 10 year period 1999 - 2008, between them, Georgia Southern and App. State won 5 of the 10 National Championship. Since they left the conference, no SOCON team has gotten past the Quarterfinals. The Citadel has not even got out of the state of South Carolina.

Well any years will work. Lets say 2007. National Champion App State beat #5 Michigan. Then 2 weeks later lost @Wofford. Wofford has become a very strong program. So has Citadel, UTC, Samford. One guy here made a great point about other programs though. Coastal started football and they've produced not just NFL players but some Pro Bowl guys. 10 or 15 years ago those guys would be in the SoCon. Same for the handful of Charleston Southern kids who recently have been in NFL camps or All American lists.

Yes the SoCon hasnt gone past that in a while, not since Wofford made the semifinal game vs Delaware (where they lost to SC native QB Andy Hall). But SoCon and S.C. teams heading to Fargo has been a big reason for that also. NDSU has ruined a lot of dreams the past decade. 5 SoCon teams and 1 Big South have had their playoff run end in Fargo since 2010.

Getting out of the state of SC isnt easy. We have 6 FCS teams who have been playoff teams in the past 10 years. Wofford, Furman, SC State, Citadel, Coastal, CSU. Everyone except State has playoff wins, and they dont because they, even at 10-1 w 1 loss to an SEC team, got sent to defending champion App State in round 1 for some reason.

[Catamount87]

Well said. It has been fun to watch. I think Furman is about to rise up big time. That DC they hired from us can shut down option teams better than anyone in FCS. And considering the SoCons top 2 are option teams, its obvious why they hired him.

We are about to go through the same thing in the Big South w Liberty and Coastal leaving, and already having lost Stoney Brook. CSU is gonna be the favorite in the short run but we expect Kennesaw St to fill the void very soon, and we really think North Alabama is gonna be a monster in FCS when they join in 2019. But if there was EVER a time for GWU or PC to make a move its now.

Kennesaw St is an interesting program. It's a big school, 36K students. (No idea how many are on campus undergrads that pay athletic fees.) Suffice to say, they appear to have the financial resources to dedicate the football to make it a success. Interestingly, there's been quiet talk that their ultimate goal is FBS football. If they stay FCS, they'll definitely have a financial resources advantage, especially over programs like Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian.

Presbyterian, talk about being between a rock and a hard place. I thought WCU had it bad but geez, we've got nothing on Presby. How they can keep a Division 1 athletic department alive is apparently one step short of a miracle. The question there is how long can they keep it up? Since joining the Big South in 2008 they've gone 21-63 overall and 9-35 in the Big South.

As for us, yep, we've sucked over the same time frame. We've had some horrible coaching mistakes, Dennis Wagner being the poster child. Our DC last year who got canned late in the season. Geez did that guy ever turn a decent defense into a dumpster fire. 2017 does look up though. Hopefully WCU and Furman can both rise to the occasion and make the SoCon that much more interesting.

[Bucs2016]

Kennesaw St is an interesting program. It's a big school, 36K students. (No idea how many are on campus undergrads that pay athletic fees.) Suffice to say, they appear to have the financial resources to dedicate the football to make it a success. Interestingly, there's been quiet talk that their ultimate goal is FBS football. If they stay FCS, they'll definitely have a financial resources advantage, especially over programs like Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian.

Presbyterian, talk about being between a rock and a hard place. I thought WCU had it bad but geez, we've got nothing on Presby. How they can keep a Division 1 athletic department alive is apparently one step short of a miracle. The question there is how long can they keep it up? Since joining the Big South in 2008 they've gone 21-63 overall and 9-35 in the Big South.

As for us, yep, we've sucked over the same time frame. We've had some horrible coaching mistakes, Dennis Wagner being the poster child. Our DC last year who got canned late in the season. Geez did that guy ever turn a decent defense into a dumpster fire. 2017 does look up though. Hopefully WCU and Furman can both rise to the occasion and make the SoCon that much more interesting.

Kennesaws biggest benefit is recruiting since they're in the Atlanta metro area. Endless supply of D1 talent within an hour drive. They're very similar to where Coastal was in 2003, but with LOTS more home city recruits. KSU will be a beast soon. So will North Alabama.

PC is a weird team. They were actually BETTER as a D2 team! How? Not sure. Coach Spangler is a great def coach so their D will be back to competitive status soon. What they truly truly need is a rival to spark some energy into that place. If Newberry could move up and join that would help but that isnt feasible at all. They have a pretty campus. Decent stadium. Close to great recruiting in upstate SC. Not sure what holds them back. They're actually in much better shape w finances and facilities than CSU. But...they're in Clinton SC, we're in Charleston. We can win that recruiting battle with one night downtown with the ladies!!!

You guys will be fine. Sounds like WCU moving in positive direction.

[KPSUL]

Well any years will work. Lets say 2007. National Champion App State beat #5 Michigan. Then 2 weeks later lost @Wofford. Wofford has become a very strong program. So has Citadel, UTC, Samford. One guy here made a great point about other programs though. Coastal started football and they've produced not just NFL players but some Pro Bowl guys. 10 or 15 years ago those guys would be in the SoCon. Same for the handful of Charleston Southern kids who recently have been in NFL camps or All American lists.

Yes the SoCon hasnt gone past that in a while, not since Wofford made the semifinal game vs Delaware (where they lost to SC native QB Andy Hall). But SoCon and S.C. teams heading to Fargo has been a big reason for that also. NDSU has ruined a lot of dreams the past decade. 5 SoCon teams and 1 Big South have had their playoff run end in Fargo since 2010.

Getting out of the state of SC isnt easy. We have 6 FCS teams who have been playoff teams in the past 10 years. Wofford, Furman, SC State, Citadel, Coastal, CSU. Everyone except State has playoff wins, and they dont because they, even at 10-1 w 1 loss to an SEC team, got sent to defending champion App State in round 1 for some reason.

I doubt anyone would argue against the fact that South Carolina has the largest number of very competitive FCS teams. But that was just as true ten years ago. It in no way proves that the SoCon was as strong in 2016 as it was in 2006 - which was your central argument.

OK, there was a "South Carolina" bracket for two consecutive years. So what? What did the survivor of the bracket do when it moved on? Nothing, zip, zippo.

[Bucs2016]

I doubt anyone would argue against the fact that South Carolina has the largest number of very competitive FCS teams. But that was just as true ten years ago. It in no way proves that the SoCon was as strong in 2016 as it was in 2006 - which was your central argument.

OK, there was a "South Carolina" bracket for two consecutive years. So what? What did the survivor of the bracket do when it moved on? Nothing, zip, zippo.

I dont think that was true 10 years ago because CSU, Citadel and Coastal werent playoff teams back then. SC had Wofford and Furman, and not much else 10 years ago. But lately? If there was a Palmetto State Conference the last few years made of all the SC teams, it could possibly be among the top 3 conferences in FCS.

Im not sure if 2016 SoCon is as strong as 2006. No way to know but I don't think they're that far apart. Would those App State teams have beaten NDSU?? Don't know. They might have lost in Fargo like 5 other SoCon runs have since 2010.

What did they do? Well the 2 tiny private schools (CSU and Wofford) lost to Jacksonville State and Youngstown State, both of whom went on to the National Championship game so...they both lost competitive games to the #2 teams in the tournament. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[PAllen]

It might be worth the investment. I believe it has been a good thing for Andy Kerr Stadium (though oldtimers like still prefer our 1:00pm kick-offs). The kids seem to enjoy the night games as more of an "event". Also, you can play the occasional major soccer or lacrosse game there. I love Goodman, especially in the fall colors.

The biggest issue with night events at Goodman is that entire campus is not designed for post sunset events of more than a few thousand people. It would require more than lights at the stadium. It would require a complete lighting redesign of the entire campus including all of the field lots used for football games. It could be done, but certainly not worth it for the 40-50 times they might actually be used.

If you've been there for a game. Imagine walking back to your car in the dark with semi sober drivers negotiating their way out.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The biggest issue with night events at Goodman is that entire campus is not designed for post sunset events of more than a few thousand people. It would require more than lights at the stadium. It would require a complete lighting redesign of the entire campus including all of the field lots used for football games. It could be done, but certainly not worth it for the 40-50 times they might actually be used.

If you've been there for a game. Imagine walking back to your car in the dark with semi sober drivers negotiating their way out.

It would still be better than getting out of Beaver Stadium after a night game.

I would love to know if there's any concrete info regarding Lehigh's ability to host playoff games moving forward without lights. As well as a Sterrett's, Coen's and the players thoughts on the matter.

[Go...gate]

The biggest issue with night events at Goodman is that entire campus is not designed for post sunset events of more than a few thousand people. It would require more than lights at the stadium. It would require a complete lighting redesign of the entire campus including all of the field lots used for football games. It could be done, but certainly not worth it for the 40-50 times they might actually be used.

If you've been there for a game. Imagine walking back to your car in the dark with semi sober drivers negotiating their way out.

I have been there many times, and that is a problem, but one that can be surmounted.

[DFW HOYA]

The biggest issue with night events at Goodman is that entire campus is not designed for post sunset events of more than a few thousand people. It would require more than lights at the stadium. It would require a complete lighting redesign of the entire campus including all of the field lots used for football games. It could be done, but certainly not worth it for the 40-50 times they might actually be used.

Lots of schools do this without incident. Try walking out of Notre Dame Stadium in the direction of the golf course at the night.

[PAllen]

Lots of schools do this without incident. Try walking out of Notre Dame Stadium in the direction of the golf course at the night.

Agreed, schools do it. But Lehigh doesn't have the budget or backing that Notre Dame and Penn State do.

[Anthony215]

Kennesaw St is an interesting program. It's a big school, 36K students. (No idea how many are on campus undergrads that pay athletic fees.) Suffice to say, they appear to have the financial resources to dedicate the football to make it a success. Interestingly, there's been quiet talk that their ultimate goal is FBS football. If they stay FCS, they'll definitely have a financial resources advantage, especially over programs like Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian.

Presbyterian, talk about being between a rock and a hard place. I thought WCU had it bad but geez, we've got nothing on Presby. How they can keep a Division 1 athletic department alive is apparently one step short of a miracle. The question there is how long can they keep it up? Since joining the Big South in 2008 they've gone 21-63 overall and 9-35 in the Big South.

As for us, yep, we've sucked over the same time frame. We've had some horrible coaching mistakes, Dennis Wagner being the poster child. Our DC last year who got canned late in the season. Geez did that guy ever turn a decent defense into a dumpster fire. 2017 does look up though. Hopefully WCU and Furman can both rise to the occasion and make the SoCon that much more interesting.

I agree that Kennesaw State will be a huge success in the near future with their resources and prime location. If FBS is their ultimate goal that could very well be a realistic possibility as I believe they're set up to be even bigger and better than Georgia State when they made the jump up.

[PaladinFan]

I agree that Kennesaw State will be a huge success in the near future with their resources and prime location. If FBS is their ultimate goal that could very well be a realistic possibility as I believe they're set up to be even bigger and better than Georgia State when they made the jump up.

I mean, their location is nice, but its not like KSU is the only school with access to metro Atlanta. It is certainly the closest school to the metro area, but places like UTC, Furman, Wofford, and Mercer aren't that much further.

[Bucs2016]

Agreed, schools do it. But Lehigh doesn't have the budget or backing that Notre Dame and Penn State do.

We put in lights and our stadium is awful. Parking options are atrocious. And if you think walking around at night at Lehigh is risky try walking at night in North Charleston!!!

[Bucs2016]

I mean, their location is nice, but its not like KSU is the only school with access to metro Atlanta. It is certainly the closest school to the metro area, but places like UTC, Furman, Wofford, and Mercer aren't that much further.

Yes. Recruiting Atlanta is a must for teams in the South. But recruiting TO Atlanta helps also. Huge city with lots to do. Its nit what every kid looks for. But us and Coastal can surely say it helps to have a very fun city to offer and Kennesaw can offer it.

[PAllen]

We put in lights and our stadium is awful. Parking options are atrocious. And if you think walking around at night at Lehigh is risky try walking at night in North Charleston!!!

It's a completely different type of problem.

[ElCid]

We put in lights and our stadium is awful. Parking options are atrocious. And if you think walking around at night at Lehigh is risky try walking at night in North Charleston!!!

It is funny you say that. When I was a freshman, waaay back in 1981, we were basically forbidden from walking alone outside the gates, day or night. Especially the walk down to McD's on the crosstown. Had to go in a group when walking off campus. And nobody, except maybe a platoon in PT formation, ever entered Hampton Park. Pretty safe now and has been for a long time. There are certainly parts of the north area I would not walk at night even today.

[PaladinFan]

Yes. Recruiting Atlanta is a must for teams in the South. But recruiting TO Atlanta helps also. Huge city with lots to do. Its nit what every kid looks for. But us and Coastal can surely say it helps to have a very fun city to offer and Kennesaw can offer it.

I guess it just depends on the kid. Georgia State is in Atlanta and they aren't exactly attracting top flight talent.

Besides, I'd put Greenville up against metro Atlanta's rat race any day.

[PAllen]

I guess it just depends on the kid. Georgia State is in Atlanta and they aren't exactly attracting top flight talent.

Besides, I'd put Greenville up against metro Atlanta's rat race any day.

Greenville and surrounding area is a potential retirement location. Atlanta? Only if the other options were LA, San Fran, NY or Chicago.

[Sir William]

The vast, vast majority of kids do not pick a college football program to play for based on the size and amenities of nearby city. That may be a nice little perk, but matters very little in determining a recruit's final decision.

Recruits make their final decisions based on these things (not necessarily in this order):
Coaching staff
Tradition and direction of program
Ability to obtain quality playing time
Quality of education, etc
Scholarship $$ offered

If all things are equal, a kid may pick a school based on nearby city, or he may pick it based upon nearby geography, or he may pick it based upon a nearby girlfriend. Doubtful that the size or amenities of a city play a key role. Otherwise, EWU and Sam Houston St would stink at football.

[Bucs2016]

It is funny you say that. When I was a freshman, waaay back in 1981, we were basically forbidden from walking alone outside the gates, day or night. Especially the walk down to McD's on the crosstown. Had to go in a group when walking off campus. And nobody, except maybe a platoon in PT formation, ever entered Hampton Park. Pretty safe now and has been for a long time. There are certainly parts of the north area I would not walk at night even today.

Yeah its still not Mayberry outside the Citadel walls. But back in the day that area was a war zone. All the growth in this region has helped though.

[Bucs2016]

Greenville and surrounding area is a potential retirement location. Atlanta? Only if the other options were LA, San Fran, NY or Chicago.

Greenville has become a great city. Clemsons guys go there a lot, I used to see Tajh Boyd, Watkins, Watson, Boulware and lots of others out on the town.

[Bucs2016]

The vast, vast majority of kids do not pick a college football program to play for based on the size and amenities of nearby city. That may be a nice little perk, but matters very little in determining a recruit's final decision.

Recruits make their final decisions based on these things (not necessarily in this order):
Coaching staff
Tradition and direction of program
Ability to obtain quality playing time
Quality of education, etc
Scholarship $$ offered

If all things are equal, a kid may pick a school based on nearby city, or he may pick it based upon nearby geography, or he may pick it based upon a nearby girlfriend. Doubtful that the size or amenities of a city play a key role. Otherwise, EWU and Sam Houston St would stink at football.

Maybe but some places it matters. Especially beach towns. It can be the tie breaker.

[Sir William]

Maybe but some places it matters. Especially beach towns.

Not really.

[ElCid]

Greenville and surrounding area is a potential retirement location. Atlanta? Only if the other options were LA, San Fran, NY or Chicago.

I am not sure why anyone would want to retire in any city. Talk about pissing away your money. Small town life is so much more relaxing and cheaper.

[tigonian02]

"Southern arrogance" haha? Thats a new one. Citadel was playing App up until 2013. Hasnt been that long. And Furman is the only remaining power??? For one Wofford has an outstanding history since moving into D1.

But I'll let the SoCon guys do the rest of the talking on their behalf.

And if you want to be technical about it, the Citadel played GaSouthern only a year removed from FCS a couple of years ago.

[PAllen]

I am not sure why anyone would want to retire in any city. Talk about pissing away your money. Small town life is so much more relaxing and cheaper.

I meant the region not the city.

[Bucs2016]

Not really.

I disagree. Coastal was founded with no history at all. Being in Myrtle Beach was/is a huge draw for them. Same with Charleston Southern. There is absolutely nothing about our facilities or short history or coaching carousel that should appeal to recruits but we've recruited on par with far better historical programs. Its only because of Charleston. My recruiting trip was a 30 minute campus tour, then 2 nights downtown and at the beach with the players and lady "hosts". I was sold (other offers Gardner Webb, Presbyterian, walk on offer ECU).

And FBS teams have done it also. Miami has half empty stadiums but kids wanna be there. Southern Cal, South Florida, some others. Its not everything but it matters. Even Notre Dame coaches have complained about that problem since South Bend is such a crap town.

[Sir William]

I disagree. Coastal was founded with no history at all. Being in Myrtle Beach was/is a huge draw for them. Same with Charleston Southern. There is absolutely nothing about our facilities or short history or coaching carousel that should appeal to recruits but we've recruited on par with far better historical programs. Its only because of Charleston. My recruiting trip was a 30 minute campus tour, then 2 nights downtown and at the beach with the players and lady "hosts". I was sold (other offers Gardner Webb, Presbyterian, walk on offer ECU).

And FBS teams have done it also. Miami has half empty stadiums but kids wanna be there. Southern Cal, South Florida, some others. Its not everything but it matters. Even Notre Dame coaches have complained about that problem since South Bend is such a crap town.

I'm not arguing with your personal experience or decision. And I'm not saying there aren't a few recruits out there who have made similar decisions. I'm just saying from personal knowledge and experience that it doesn't play as much significance to which you seem to be alluding. Otherwise, by such logic, beach town schools should be competing for national championships constantly. And it ain't so.

For example, what made the Miami Hurricanes of the 80s so attractive to recruits had more to do with Howard Schellenberger and Jimmy Johnson than the beach. Heck, many of their players were from S Florida anyway. I love the Hurricanes now (esp bc of Mark Richt), but they can't yet keep up with the Alabamas, Ohio States or Oklahomas - and when they finally do, I'll say it has more to do with other things I mentioned previously than the beach.

On the other hand, (and it kills me to say it) consider two programs most of us absolutely despise, but which nonetheless were highly successful at the FCS level for many years...Marshall and GA Southern. Ever been to Huntington or Statesboro? Both towns are crap holes, and yet, a lot of championship hardware resides there. (And do I need to mention Youngstown OH?)

As far as pretty ladies are concerned, all schools - with the exception of the Citadel 😜 - can and do produce them to greet recruits.

Don't forget that when a coach is recruiting a player, he's not just trying to sell the player on the school and program, but he's also focused on (and often more importantly) THE PARENTS. A Coastal coach can mention the proximity of the beach, but if he oversells that point, he'll kill more deals with influential parents than win them over. It's true. You sell them on you and the program and the school and the education they'll receive and the playing time they'll have an opportunity to play, etc.

I think it's great how Chuck South has had a few great seasons, but I think most who are in the know would argue it had more to do with the leadership of Chadwell and Staggs than the seafood at Shems Creek or the girls at Folly Beach. (Otherwise, "beach logic" says Jay Mills should be the winningest coach in Big South history). Gonna be real interesting to see if you guys can keep it up over the next couple of years.

[Bucs2016]

I'm not arguing with your personal experience or decision. And I'm not saying there aren't a few recruits out there who have made similar decisions. I'm just saying from personal knowledge and experience that it doesn't play as much significance to which you seem to be alluding. Otherwise, by such logic, beach town schools should be competing for national championships constantly. And it ain't so.

For example, what made the Miami Hurricanes of the 80s so attractive to recruits had more to do with Howard Schellenberger and Jimmy Johnson than the beach. Heck, many of their players were from S Florida anyway. I love the Hurricanes now (esp bc of Mark Richt), but they can't yet keep up with the Alabamas, Ohio States or Oklahomas - and when they finally do, I'll say it has more to do with other things I mentioned previously than the beach.

On the other hand, (and it kills me to say it) consider two programs most of us absolutely despise, but which nonetheless were highly successful at the FCS level for many years...Marshall and GA Southern. Ever been to Huntington or Statesboro? Both towns are crap holes, and yet, a lot of championship hardware resides there. (And do I need to mention Youngstown OH?)

As far as pretty ladies are concerned, all schools - with the exception of the Citadel  - can and do produce them to greet recruits.

Don't forget that when a coach is recruiting a player, he's not just trying to sell the player on the school and program, but he's also focused on (and often more importantly) THE PARENTS. A Coastal coach can mention the proximity of the beach, but if he oversells that point, he'll kill more deals with influential parents than win them over. It's true. You sell them on you and the program and the school and the education they'll receive and the playing time they'll have an opportunity to play, etc.

I think it's great how Chuck South has had a few great seasons, but I think most who are in the know would argue it had more to do with the leadership of Chadwell and Staggs than the seafood at Shems Creek or the girls at Folly Beach. (Otherwise, "beach logic" says Jay Mills should be the winningest coach in Big South history). Gonna be real interesting to see if you guys can keep it up over the next couple of years.

**You talk like a coach....yeah?**

Jay Mills did win the Big South here. He just fizzled out. What Chadwell did was amazing. As a LONG time very involved former player and alumni, I can say probably the 2 biggest things that changed was staff continuity and QB health. CSU has a damn curse for QB health and its only been stable around 2004-2006 and 2013-2016. Lots of potentially great CSU teams were destroyed by early season QB iniuries. The coaching carousel of assistants always hurt too. Chadwells strong staff and some good fortune w injuries helped so much.

All that said...there really arent many beach schools.

[Sir William]

All that said...there really arent many beach schools.

That's true.

That said, you guys looked very good last year. I remember watching y'all against NDSU - gave them all they could handle.

[ST_Lawson]

Doubtful that the size or amenities of a city play a key role. Otherwise, EWU and Sam Houston St would stink at football.

Yup. If those things made that big of a difference, WIU and USD wouldn't have won a game in the last decade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bucs2016]

That's true.

That said, you guys looked very good last year. I remember watching y'all against NDSU - gave them all they could handle.

Thanks. I dont think we'll drop off much at all this year. I love the staff Tucker hired and Tucker was Chadwells mentor at ETSU and he helped lead those great Citadel early 90s teams and great late 90s ETSU ones. Guys a very smart coach.

I think yall will get good quick. That DC from CSU flat out knows how to shut down triple option. Wofford and Citadel are gonna have hell w the Furman D in the coming years.

[PaladinFan]

Thanks. I dont think we'll drop off much at all this year. I love the staff Tucker hired and Tucker was Chadwells mentor at ETSU and he helped lead those great Citadel early 90s teams and great late 90s ETSU ones. Guys a very smart coach.

I think yall will get good quick. That DC from CSU flat out knows how to shut down triple option. Wofford and Citadel are gonna have hell w the Furman D in the coming years.

I like that Furman has a defensive staff that knows how to stop the triple option and an offensive staff with a bunch of guys that know how to run it.

So, you have the guy setting up the defense who can then ask his colleagues about what adjustments an offense would make to combat what he was doing defensively. Valuable bit of information there.

[Catamount87]

Hmm, some discussion about whether or not the beach is that much of a recruiting draw. Well Savannah State's proximity to the beach, it must not be much of a recruiting draw given the sorry state of Savannah State's football program. xlolx

[Bucs2016]

Hmm, some discussion about whether or not the beach is that much of a recruiting draw. Well Savannah State's proximity to the beach, it must not be much of a recruiting draw given the sorry state of Savannah State's football program. xlolx

It cant overcome ****holes haha

[Bucs2016]

I like that Furman has a defensive staff that knows how to stop the triple option and an offensive staff with a bunch of guys that know how to run it.

So, you have the guy setting up the defense who can then ask his colleagues about what adjustments an offense would make to combat what he was doing defensively. Valuable bit of information there.

YES! Thats exactly what we had at CSU. Mark Tucker wasnt coaching for 10 years bc he was a paid consultant to teams on how to defend the option. Yes he was our offensive coach but he could assist in defending it because he knows how to run it so well. That Sun Tzu quote "know thy enemy" haha.

Yall will have the same deal at Furman. Looking forward to seeing the FU D vs Citadel and Wofford.

[Go...gate]

Any thought of stadium upgrades at CSU?

[citdog]

Any thought of stadium upgrades at CSU?

They should probably concentrate on out drawing DII Newberry first.

[PAllen]

They should probably concentrate on out drawing DII Newberry first.

Apparently the beach is too much of a draw on Saturday afternoon.

[Bucs2016]

Any thought of stadium upgrades at CSU?

Very slowly but yes. We don't get crowds larger than 4000 very often. Our AD said we are gonna stick with what we've got until the day The Citadel finally wins a game on our field. So it might be quite a while.

[Bucs2016]

Apparently the beach is too much of a draw on Saturday afternoon.

It is. Its why Citadel is SHRINKING their stadium. It was rarely even half full.

We are a small school (5000 i think) with lots of commuters. Compared with the stuff to do here its hard to draw much of a crowd. This is part of the reason College of Charleston hasnt added football.

[ElCid]

It is. Its why Citadel is SHRINKING their stadium. It was rarely even half full.

We are a small school (5000 i think) with lots of commuters. Compared with the stuff to do here its hard to draw much of a crowd. This is part of the reason College of Charleston hasnt added football.

That is not actually why we are shrinking our stadium, although the other activities in Chucktown are admitted competition for the average non-affiliated attendee. If the funds were available, the torn down visitors side would have been replaced with pretty much an exact duplicate. Right now we need to get something up, and a scaled down, but expandable, replacement was in order. As it is now, the Corps of Cadets is right about at 2,400. We have averaged about 12,500 over the last 11 years (since the new home side reopened). That is not too shabby of a ration of students to attendance.

[Bucs2016]

That is not actually why we are shrinking our stadium, although the other activities in Chucktown are admitted competition for the average non-affiliated attendee. If the funds were available, the torn down visitors side would have been replaced with pretty much an exact duplicate. Right now we need to get something up, and a scaled down, but expandable, replacement was in order. As it is now, the Corps of Cadets is right about at 2,400. We have averaged about 12,500 over the last 11 years (since the new home side reopened). That is not too shabby of a ration of students to attendance.

I know man. Just felt like riling up Citdog a bit.

However i do bet if Citadel was averaging 20k a game theres no way that new away side would be getting smaller. Just like if we averaged 12k a game (like yall do) we would need an immediate and drastic stadium upgrade.

[citdog]

I know man. Just felt like riling up Citdog a bit.

However i do bet if Citadel was averaging 20k a game theres no way that new away side would be getting smaller. Just like if we averaged 12k a game (like yall do) we would need an immediate and drastic stadium upgrade.

Instead you should concentrate on outdrawing Newberry.

[Bucs2016]

Instead you should concentrate on outdrawing Newberry.

Haha ok we will. Now yall focus on being sure you BEAT Newberry. Their HC is a former CSU assistant and...well...we know how thats gone for yall lately. In 2014 we beat em 16-10 in Ladson then 2 weeks later beat yall 20-18 in Ladson. Theres not much difference on the field in Citadel vs Newberry. Should be a great game!!!

[citdog]

Haha ok we will. Now yall focus on being sure you BEAT Newberry. Their HC is a former CSU assistant and...well...we know how thats gone for yall lately. In 2014 we beat em 16-10 in Ladson then 2 weeks later beat yall 20-18 in Ladson. Theres not much difference on the field in Citadel vs Newberry. Should be a great game!!!

We'll win 42-17.

[Bucs2016]

We'll win 42-17.

Nah. I predict overtime.

[POD Knows]

Nah. I predict overtime.The Citadel is so good that they will win 42-17 in overtime.

[Bucs2016]

The Citadel is so good that they will win 42-17 in overtime.

Some of them think the Civil War is in overtime as we speak

[Bison56]

Some of them think the Civil War is in overtime as we speak

http://images.memes.com/meme/470536 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjnsPH_6dvUAhUMw4MKHXt-CvkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.memes.com%2Fimg%2F470536&psig=AFQjCNEWKVPQSuWoJFf_ZXJTZc9uqkcGqQ&ust=1498577366745965)

[dgtw]

Am I the only one that thinks it's funny a LEHIGH fan is playing the "but how many playoff wins do you have?" card?

You weren't born, but you might want to check the 1977 D2 championship game. It wasn't pretty. Although we did beat the Bison in the semifinals.


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[JSUSoutherner]

You weren't born, but you might want to check the 1977 D2 championship game. It wasn't pretty. Although we did beat the Bison in the semifinals.


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Because a D2 Championship from 40 years ago carries so much weight when discussing football today.

I may be alone in my opinion but I don't think Lehigh can hold a candle to the Citadel right now.

[Bucs2016]

Because a D2 Championship from 40 years ago carries so much weight when discussing football today.

I may be alone in my opinion but I don't think Lehigh can hold a candle to the Citadel right now.

I agree. Lehigh vs Citadel....Id take the Bulldogs, 35-10.

[PaladinFan]

I agree. Lehigh vs Citadel....Id take the Bulldogs, 35-10.

There will be a good Patriot League/SoCon matchup this season as Furman heads up to Hamilton to play Colgate.

[PAllen]

There will be a good Patriot League/SoCon matchup this season as Furman heads up to Hamilton to play Colgate.

Yup, although Colgate has a habit of laying an egg when they play OOC during the season. Still great to see though. I do wish LU's OOC schedule looked a whole lot more like Colgate's (with at least 11 games of course.

[Bucs2016]

There will be a good Patriot League/SoCon matchup this season as Furman heads up to Hamilton to play Colgate.

Nice. Do yall recruit up there? Kinda odd game for Furman to take. We schedule OOC teams with a very strong emphasis on how it helps recruit.

[Go...gate]

I really like the Furman-Colgate series. This year it is a good measuring stick for what is going to be a rebuilding Colgate squad.

[citdog]

furman sucks

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I really like the Furman-Colgate series. This year it is a good measuring stick for what is going to be a rebuilding Colgate squad.

Furman has really struggled the last 2 or 3 year after showing some promise in "2013?". At home this a game that Colgate really needs to win imo.

[caribbeanhen]

There will be a good Patriot League/SoCon matchup this season as Furman heads up to Hamilton to play Colgate.

coined the glory days bowl

[Lehigh'98]

coined the glory days bowl

Delaware's OOC kinda blows this year. 2-1 guaranteed. Delaware St. & Cornell blah.

[caribbeanhen]

Delaware's OOC kinda blows this year. 2-1 guaranteed. Delaware St. & Cornell blah.

no argument from me or almost any other Hen fan, We do get to go down to Va Tech and get our beaks busted though....

[ElCid]

There will be a good Patriot League/SoCon matchup this season as Furman heads up to Hamilton to play Colgate.

I missed that. Got to check all the schedules out! That will be a good trip and a good game.

[ElCid]

coined the glory days bowl

xlolx Too funny.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I missed that. Got to check all the schedules out! That will be a good trip and a good game.

I'm pretty sure they had a H-H around 2007 and 2008. If only CFBdatawarehouse was still around..

I'm pretty sure Furman won one game something along the lines of 47-24.

[JSUSoutherner]

I'm pretty sure they had a H-H around 2007 and 2008. If only CFBdatawarehouse was still around..

I'm pretty sure Furman won one game something along the lines of 47-24.

What ever happened to them?