Fordham AD Hopeful On Expansion

[DFW HOYA]

Caught this link over at the Fordhamfans board. I don't think the AD has anyone in mind but it's a provocative comment.

Q: It has been said that leadership is the ability to make vision a reality. Sometimes it seems like Fordham's leaders have not always had a strong vision for its athletic programs. With that in mind, but it where do you see Fordham football in 10-15 years time? Where do you see Fordham men's basketball? Where might we see their games in 10-15-20 years?


A: Thank you for your question. It is hard to predict where intercollegiate athletics will be nationally 10-15-20 years from now especially if one thinks about the many changes that have occurred over the last few years. We have seen many schools switch conferences as schools and leagues have chased TV money. So it's hard to know where all this is headed. With that said, I see us continuing to play FCS football hopefully in an expanded Patriot League. Basketball will continue to play in the A10 which will be known as one of the top Basketball-centric conferences in the country.

http://fordhamsports.com/sports/2015/9/14/GEN_0914152712.aspx?id=66

[RootinFerDukes]

I remember seeing a FOIA request at some point saying that William & Mary has a pending invite to the Patriot League that they would consider if more teams left the CAA.

[DFW HOYA]

Patriot League expansion faces three concurrent truths.

1. Those they want, aren't interested. The PL's former reputation as a place where old football programs go to die was manifest in its 25 year devotion to all things Ivy. Sixty scholarships have changed that somewhat but there are still too many obsolete restrictions to gather sustained interest from the three unrequited names: Villanova, William & Mary, and Richmond. The mere discussion of the PL led to the beginning of the end for Bill Cooper as UR president in 2007, and the perception of the PL as a deemphasis is not to be understated.

2. Those that want in, aren't welcome. Deemphasis doesn't carry the same stigma at places like Monmouth, Marist, or Bryant, where the reputation of the PL is a step up from the NEC or the failing Big South. But among the old guard, the right SAT pedigree still matters. The idea of Lafayette or Colgate standing alongside a Bryant, with its 77% admit rate and a campus that dates back to 1982, doesn't win much support.

3. Those they have, aren't playing. Not many football conferences add schools that aren't playing football, but each of the PL's last three all-sports adds, Boston University, Loyola, and American, don't play football. A concerted effort to cajole BU and Loyola (the two schools with ready-made facilities) to join the rest of the league seems to have no traction in the league office. Other marginal expansion candidates (Rider, Quinnipiac, Drexel) also fall into the no-football camp.

Patriot football hasn't expanded since Georgetown jumped in to replace Towson in 2001. Mixed results, at best, for the league, but the autobid is safe. Georgetown literally and figuratively has nowhere to go. No one else seems ready to spend what it takes to be in the league and be accepted therein.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

3. Those they have, aren't playing. Not many football conferences add schools that aren't playing football, but each of the PL's last three all-sports adds, Boston University, Loyola, and American, don't play football. A concerted effort to cajole BU and Loyola (the two schools with ready-made facilities) to join the rest of the league seems to have no traction in the league office. Other marginal expansion candidates (Rider, Quinnipiac, Drexel) also fall into the no-football camp.

Despite my best efforts BU seems implacably against offering football and Loyola, who would be a fantastic add for football, doesn't seem warm on the idea either. I think honestly both of them sponsoring football would be the absolute best thing for the league, bringing all of the PL schools closer together competitively. I also think it would be better for them athletically, raising their profile (Loyola) or righting a historic wrong against football (BU).

[Go Green]

. Georgetown literally and figuratively has nowhere to go. .

Why would the PFL not want Georgetown?

[Nova09]

DFW you're doing it all wrong you're supposed to find someone else's thread and then turn it into discussion of PL membership

[Model Citizen]

Why would the PFL not want Georgetown?

1. Georgetown football gives athletic aid. That's against PFL rules. Neither Georgetown nor the PFL will change what they do.

2. PFL has probably had enough whining about how Georgetown doesn't want to associated with academically inferior, geographically distant schools. Like Butler. OK, they're already in the Big East with Butler...let me come up with a better example. Here you are: Dayton, Marist, Davidson. Wouldn't want to play them.

[Model Citizen]

Breaking News -

The PFL's California and Florida schools say they will refuse to play Georgetown, because GU "doesn't mean anything to them."

[LUHawker]

Despite my best efforts BU seems implacably against offering football and Loyola, who would be a fantastic add for football, doesn't seem warm on the idea either. I think honestly both of them sponsoring football would be the absolute best thing for the league, bringing all of the PL schools closer together competitively. I also think it would be better for them athletically, raising their profile (Loyola) or righting a historic wrong against football (BU).

I agree with you that BU restoring football would be the coup de grace, but other than adding numbers (which we've collectively already bickered about), I don't see that "Loyola Football" helps the PL. I'd rather add a Gettysburg before Loyola for football (and yes I know that is impractical given they are DIII - its just for exemplary purposes)

Since W&M, Richmond and VU have been discussed ad nauseum by all, here is my list of next "best", regardless of practicality or likelihood of occurrence (I'm also ignoring any BCS schools coming into the fold, although the two best are already members of the PL for all other sponsored sports)

1. RPI (DIII)
2. Johns Hopkins (DIII)
3. Carnegie Mellon (DIII)
4. Gettysburg College (DIII)
5. Coast Guard Academy (DIII)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't see that "Loyola Football" helps the PL

Loyola football would:

1. Create a "regional rival" for Georgetown in football. Gtown/Loyola would close each other's season. Last regular season week could be: Loyola/Gtown; Lehigh/Lafayette; Holy Cross/Fordham; and Bucknell/Colgate. That's perfection.

2. Create an eighth football member and most importantly a sixth all-sports member. That is a crucial firewall in regards to keeping Patriot League FB together and preventing Fordham and G'Town possibly looking elsewhere.

Those IMO are two pretty damned compelling arguments.

[centraljerseycat]

Talley was never a fan of leaving the CAA for the Patriot because of the lack of athletic schollies (which is no longer an issue) and the AI (which still is). Let's face it Nova, Richmond and W&M have a lot more in common with Patriot League schools than CAA schools.
Will be interesting to see what the post-Talley era will look like.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Talley was never a fan of leaving the CAA for the Patriot because of the lack of athletic schollies (which is no longer an issue) and the AI (which still is). Let's face it Nova, Richmond and W&M have a lot more in common with Patriot League schools than CAA schools.
Will be interesting to see what the post-Talley era will look like.

I don't disagree, but I don't see Villanova (or Richmond or W&M) proactively moving to the PL unless something happens in the CAA.

[bgsmitty43]

I don't disagree, but I don't see Villanova (or Richmond or W&M) proactively moving to the PL unless something happens in the CAA.


I would love to see a Villanova-Georgetown rivalry develop in football. Villanova and W & M seem a great fit for PL, like-minded schools.

[RootinFerDukes]

Talley was never a fan of leaving the CAA for the Patriot because of the lack of athletic schollies (which is no longer an issue) and the AI (which still is). Let's face it Nova, Richmond and W&M have a lot more in common with Patriot League schools than CAA schools.
Will be interesting to see what the post-Talley era will look like.

God help us if you three leave and we haven't left ourselves. You're 3 of the 4 reasons I even marginally care about our fb schedule anymore.

[DFW HOYA]

God help us if you three leave and we haven't left ourselves. You're 3 of the 4 reasons I even marginally care about our fb schedule anymore.

That would certainly leave an unwieldy group: the Yankee Conference legacies (Maine, UNH, URI), two SUNY schools (Albany, Stony Brook), Delaware (the school that realignment may have left behind), Towson, and Elon.

Big 12 expansion and the succeeding food chain may open up some room in the Sun Belt for JMU, but the collection of schools isn't going to sell any seats in Harrisonburg. In 2018, the league will include App State, Arkansas State, Coastal Carolina, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Louisiana-Lafayette (formerly SW Louisiana), Louisiana- Monroe (formerly NE Louisiana), South Alabama, Texas State (formerly SW Texas) and Troy.

[LUHawker]

Loyola football would:

1. Create a "regional rival" for Georgetown in football. Gtown/Loyola would close each other's season. Last regular season week could be: Loyola/Gtown; Lehigh/Lafayette; Holy Cross/Fordham; and Bucknell/Colgate. That's perfection.

2. Create an eighth football member and most importantly a sixth all-sports member. That is a crucial firewall in regards to keeping Patriot League FB together and preventing Fordham and G'Town possibly looking elsewhere.

Those IMO are two pretty damned compelling arguments.

We see this situation differently. G'Town is a nice associate member, but has clearly not committed to football at the PL level in terms of funding for the program or the facilities - I don't think Center Valley should be making any long-term plans that revolve around GU.

I acknowledged your myopic focus on getting another member - any member it seems, for the sake of adding another. I see no pressing reason to do so. The PL would have to lose both Fordham and G'Town for the auto-bid to be revoked. This seems highly improbable given the topic of this thread that Fordham is staying put.

Lastly, Loyola has no football tradition and brings nothing to the table that would strengthen the league for football (beyond adding a member).

[RichH2]

It must be summer :) The annual expansion speculation returns.
The statement by the Fordham AD is not novel. The PL and various other ADs and HCs have stated that the addition of a football member is a league priority. DFW has summarized the current situation perfectly.
Nothing will happen absent changes in the landscape. PL will never abandon the AI in some form. Redshirt and schollie cap may be modifiable.More importantly,there also needs to be change exterior to the PL that would make the PL a desired destination for a school acceptable to the members.

[tribefan40]

I remember seeing a FOIA request at some point saying that William & Mary has a pending invite to the Patriot League that they would consider if more teams left the CAA.

Under previous administration, perhaps. Complete non-starter now.

[Gangtackle11]

I think the PL could be a fit for Villanova , but I don't see us leaving the CAA.

We have our fill of the PL scheduling at least 1 or 2 (Lehigh & Lafayette next 2 seasons) out of conference each season.

Maybe if the powers that be at Villanova decide travel in the CAA is too expensive, but I don't see it in the near future.

I'm hoping new AD Mark Jackson can spice up the gameday experience and get us to 10,000+. fans per game. The players & coaches deserve better.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My vision of an ideal PL world:

7 all-sports members playing FB (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Holy Cross, BU, Loyola, Colgate), 2 long-term associate members (G'Town and Fordham).

All schedules have 4 home, 4 away conference games and 3 OOC games (for Lehigh, 1 annual Maryland trip, 1 annual Mass trip).

OOC games consist of 1 FBS, 1 Ivy, one "other" (Marist/NEC). If you don't wish to play an FBS game 2 Ivies.

If I am Loyola and BU, and are open to the idea of sponsoring football... that seems like a pretty good deal to me.

[LUHawker]

My vision of an ideal PL world:

7 all-sports members playing FB (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Holy Cross, BU, Loyola, Colgate), 2 long-term associate members (G'Town and Fordham).

All schedules have 4 home, 4 away conference games and 3 OOC games (for Lehigh, 1 annual Maryland trip, 1 annual Mass trip).

OOC games consist of 1 FBS, 1 Ivy, one "other" (Marist/NEC). If you don't wish to play an FBS game 2 Ivies.

If I am Loyola and BU, and are open to the idea of sponsoring football... that seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Yes, that seems like a sweet deal for those two schools; for the other PL members, much less so.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, that seems like a sweet deal for those two schools; for the other PL members, much less so.

I am assuming you mean aside from the fact that the PL's autobid would no longer be in jeopardy of being lost and football scheduling would be perfect. Also, you'd be replacing a second or third Ivy League game with a meaningful conference game that is likely a bus ride.

Put it this way: what's better for the PL in mid-October, a Holy Cross/Dartmouth game that doesn't mean much for the PL or the FCS community, or a Holy Cross/BU game that could have implications for who competes for the PL title? I like Ivy League games, don't get me wrong, but not in mid-October.

[van]

if the PL autobid actually ever went away (seems remote to me), there are schools that could be shoe horned in

[RichH2]

I am assuming you mean aside from the fact that the PL's autobid would no longer be in jeopardy of being lost and football scheduling would be perfect. Also, you'd be replacing a second or third Ivy League game with a meaningful conference game that is likely a bus ride.

Put it this way: what's better for the PL in mid-October, a Holy Cross/Dartmouth game that doesn't mean much for the PL or the FCS community, or a Holy Cross/BU game that could have implications for who competes for the PL title? I like Ivy League games, don't get me wrong, but not in mid-October.
Agree completely with the logic, if not the chance that either will ever add football.

[RichH2]

if the PL autobid actually ever went away (seems remote to me), there are schools that could be shoe horned in

Perhaps so.Have to keep in mind that neither have any other ties to the PL. IF Hoyas keep football, not apt to leave as there is nowhere to go.
Fordham a bit more problematic. They fit very well ihere and have a history of some success. Their track record of staying here tho is spotty :)

[dbackjon]

DFW you're doing it all wrong you're supposed to find someone else's thread and then turn it into discussion of PL membership


So who is the next candidate for the Big South?

[dbackjon]

I agree with you that BU restoring football would be the coup de grace, but other than adding numbers (which we've collectively already bickered about), I don't see that "Loyola Football" helps the PL. I'd rather add a Gettysburg before Loyola for football (and yes I know that is impractical given they are DIII - its just for exemplary purposes)

Since W&M, Richmond and VU have been discussed ad nauseum by all, here is my list of next "best", regardless of practicality or likelihood of occurrence (I'm also ignoring any BCS schools coming into the fold, although the two best are already members of the PL for all other sponsored sports)

1. RPI (DIII)
2. Johns Hopkins (DIII)
3. Carnegie Mellon (DIII)
4. Gettysburg College (DIII)
5. Coast Guard Academy (DIII)

Of course they would have to spend 8 years in DII first, then spend the 5 years transitioning to DI

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Richmond will do pretty much whatever Villanova does because it has aspirations of playing basketball with Villanova.

I like CAA Football as it is presently comprised but all bets are off if JMU goes elsewhere. Fortunately, i don't see that happening anytime soon.

[UNHWildcat18]

BU IS NEVER GOING TO RESTART FOOTBALL. God you PL posters sometimes

[van]

BU IS NEVER GOING TO RESTART FOOTBALL. God you PL posters sometimes

that should be PL poster, think the rest of us understand that

[PantherRob82]

that should be PL poster, think the rest of us understand that

I thought you were saying their should be a poster made for the Patriot League schedule that said "BU IS NEVER GOING TO RESTART FOOTBALL"

xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

BU IS NEVER GOING TO RESTART FOOTBALL. God you PL posters sometimes

Where does it stand on the "Villanova, W&M and Richmond to the PL" scale? Less likely, more likely?

[KPSUL]

Where does it stand on the "Villanova, W&M and Richmond to the PL" scale? Less likely, more likely?

Loyola is never going to field a varsity football team, it is even less likely than BU resurrecting their program. I don't see any of the three CAA schools looking seriously at moving until the PL can establish that the quality of play has reached parity with the CAA or if CAA football implodes for some reason and there is no indication that will happen anytime soon.

[RichH2]

Loyola is never going to field a varsity football team, it is even less likely than BU resurrecting their program. I don't see any of the three CAA schools looking seriously at moving until the PL can establish that the quality of play has reached parity with the CAA or if CAA football implodes for some reason and there is no indication that will happen anytime soon.

Parity between CAA and PL unlikely at least top to bottom. We'll see over the next few years how the top teams in PL fare vs CAA teams. Should be fun.:-)

[carney2]

"Where does it stand on the "Villanova, W&M and Richmond to the PL" scale? Less likely, more likely?"

All in the exact same boat - asymptotically approaching zero. Just enough space in there for folks like LFN to bring this ridiculous subject back to "life" again ... and again ... and ...

In any event, the perfect decision at the moment is to do nothing. After the BU and Loyola fiascos however, I have faith that the PL brain trust will misfire yet again. Bryant @ Lehigh, now there's a game the loyal dung colored alumni will rush the ticket office to see.

[Laker]

I thought you were saying their should be a poster made for the Patriot League schedule that said "BU IS NEVER GOING TO RESTART FOOTBALL"

xlolx
https://cdn.meme.am/Instance/Preview?imageID=984&generatorTypeID=&panels=&text0=BU%20is%20never&text1=going%20to%20restart%20football&text2=&text3=

[LUHawker]

I am assuming you mean aside from the fact that the PL's autobid would no longer be in jeopardy of being lost

Where is this great jeopardy that you are referring to? There are 5 core members which are going NOWHERE and 2 associate members, 1 of which (Fordham) is going NOWHERE and one other that has no place to go, even if it wanted to. Seems like the auto-bid is secure, so let's stop making up doomsday scenarios that aren't happening.

[Sader87]

I am assuming you mean aside from the fact that the PL's autobid would no longer be in jeopardy of being lost and football scheduling would be perfect. Also, you'd be replacing a second or third Ivy League game with a meaningful conference game that is likely a bus ride.

Put it this way: what's better for the PL in mid-October, a Holy Cross/Dartmouth game that doesn't mean much for the PL or the FCS community, or a Holy Cross/BU game that could have implications for who competes for the PL title? I like Ivy League games, don't get me wrong, but not in mid-October.

I couldn't disagree with this more.....the HC-Dartmouth series is, I believe, the third most played by Holy Cross after BC and Colgate....BU is nevah restahting football, just stop.

The PL is fine at 7 membahs.....as I've said before, I (and I think most HC fans ) like it that way. Play 3 Ivies, a CAA school and an FBS team....why should HC play RPI, Gettysburg et. al.??????

[Shockerman]

Big East Football Conference (much like MVFC)

GU
Nova
Richmond*
Dayton*
Butler
Davidson**
?
?

*Full Big East members
**Football only

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In any event, the perfect decision at the moment is to do nothing

Spoken like a true Patriot Leaguer.

[Go...gate]

I agree with you that BU restoring football would be the coup de grace, but other than adding numbers (which we've collectively already bickered about), I don't see that "Loyola Football" helps the PL. I'd rather add a Gettysburg before Loyola for football (and yes I know that is impractical given they are DIII - its just for exemplary purposes)

Since W&M, Richmond and VU have been discussed ad nauseum by all, here is my list of next "best", regardless of practicality or likelihood of occurrence (I'm also ignoring any BCS schools coming into the fold, although the two best are already members of the PL for all other sponsored sports)

1. RPI (DIII)
2. Johns Hopkins (DIII)
3. Carnegie Mellon (DIII)
4. Gettysburg College (DIII)
5. Coast Guard Academy (DIII)

Very good list, IMO, but we need to get rid of the damned "Dayton Rule".

[Go...gate]

I am assuming you mean aside from the fact that the PL's autobid would no longer be in jeopardy of being lost and football scheduling would be perfect. Also, you'd be replacing a second or third Ivy League game with a meaningful conference game that is likely a bus ride.

Put it this way: what's better for the PL in mid-October, a Holy Cross/Dartmouth game that doesn't mean much for the PL or the FCS community, or a Holy Cross/BU game that could have implications for who competes for the PL title? I like Ivy League games, don't get me wrong, but not in mid-October.

I liked the Ivy games in September and October and I genuinely miss the three, four and sometimes five Ivy - Colgate match-ups from back in the day. Going forward, Colgate will get two such match-ups at best.

[Go...gate]

I couldn't disagree with this more.....the HC-Dartmouth series is, I believe, the third most played by Holy Cross after BC and Colgate....BU is nevah restahting football, just stop.

The PL is fine at 7 membahs.....as I've said before, I (and I think most HC fans ) like it that way. Play 3 Ivies, a CAA school and an FBS team....why should HC play RPI, Gettysburg et. al.??????

Sader87, we may not agree on playoff participation, but we agree on this.

[Go Green]

Very good list, IMO, but we need to get rid of the damned "Dayton Rule".

Equally likely that Georgetown returns to D-III in such circumstances.

[UAalum72]

Very good list, IMO, but we need to get rid of the damned "Dayton Rule".
Are you advocating for PL football to drop to D-III to play those schools? Because D-III colleges playing "up" in one sport is a separate issue from the Dayton Rule forbidding D-I programs from playing down.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I liked the Ivy games in September and October and I genuinely miss the three, four and sometimes five Ivy - Colgate match-ups from back in the day. Going forward, Colgate will get two such match-ups at best.

Decoupling from Ivy Games somewhat only makes sense because this isn't 1973 anymore. If the Ivy League doesn't want to engage with the rest of the FCS world by October, why should the PL be the conference that enables them?

Again, I like Ivy League games, and two a year are great. But by October, the only thing on the line for either league is to avoid injuries before league play. It certainly isn't for RPI or for national stature.

[Sitting Bull]

I don't disagree, but I don't see Villanova (or Richmond or W&M) proactively moving to the PL unless something happens in the CAA.

It's a thin line but I think the difference to me between CAA and PL would be on the possible scenario of the discussed/future three way split for D1 football.

If that happenned, I could see the new mid level of lower G5 and upper FCS joining forces, with the CAA joining the MVC and Big Sky within it.

I believe W&M, Villanova and UR would all want to be a part of that, in essence, an east coast version of the MAC.

[LUHawker]

It's a thin line but I think the difference to me between CAA and PL would be on the possible scenario of the discussed/future three way split for D1 football.

If that happenned, I could see the new mid level of lower G5 and upper FCS joining forces, with the CAA joining the MVC and Big Sky within it.

I believe W&M, Villanova and UR would all want to be a part of that, in essence, an east coast version of the MAC.

I think some, but not all, of the PL members would like to be part of the G5/Upper FCS as well.

Likely Interested: LU, FU, Colgate
Maybes: LC, BU and HC
Not Interested: GU

If Sitting Bull's scenario plays out, there will be a lot more musical chairs than what happens in the PL and I think we could see conference affiliation realignment en masse.

[UNHWildcat18]

Big East Football Conference (much like MVFC)

GU
Nova
Richmond*
Dayton*
Butler
Davidson**
?
?

*Full Big East members
**Football only

Get that **** out of here.

[RichH2]

Wow :)
Lewis Carroll has hijacked the thread and down the rabbit hole we go. Enjoyable fantasies tho. Kudos.

[Fordham]

up is down, black is white ... I can't believe there's a thread started by DFW that makes it sound like we're committed to the PL!! xlolxxsalutex I've been saying it for years now but once the PL went scholarship we were as committed and happy as we had ever been here.

My only other thoughts are that I would put my retirement savings on Bernie Sanders bum rushing the Republican convention and coming out as the unanimous nominee before I would bet that any northeast school would add an FCS level football team, let alone one that is already affiliated with the PL.

I also think 'Nova's football program is in a state of inertia right now. Hoops rules the roost and football is doing great overall but doesn't draw in any way that makes it seem like something they should be paying attention to. There's certainly no reason to go to a lower ranked division unless something changes.

[Go...gate]

Are you advocating for PL football to drop to D-III to play those schools? Because D-III colleges playing "up" in one sport is a separate issue from the Dayton Rule forbidding D-I programs from playing down.

No. I am saying get rid of the rule that says if you have to be DI, II or II exclusively for all sports.

[UAalum72]

No. I am saying get rid of the rule that says if you have to be DI, II or II exclusively for all sports.
Then tell me in what universe the NCAA Division I would allow D-III schools to field a Division I basketball team and take another piece of the tournament money.

RPI and Hopkins and a few others were grandfathered into hockey and lacrosse. I suppose it's barely possible they could allow non-DI schools to play D-I in an olympic sport. But the big-money sports of football and basketball? Nuh-uh.

[RichH2]

Then tell me in what universe the NCAA Division I would allow D-III schools to field a Division I basketball team and take another piece of the tournament money.

RPI and Hopkins and a few others were grandfathered into hockey and lacrosse. I suppose it's barely possible they could allow non-DI schools to play D-I in an olympic sport. But the big-money sports of football and basketball? Nuh-uh.

P5 group adverse to sharing money with anyone much less lower Division teams. If anything they would force mid majors out of March Madness if they could.

[ngineer]

Loyola football would:

1. Create a "regional rival" for Georgetown in football. Gtown/Loyola would close each other's season. Last regular season week could be: Loyola/Gtown; Lehigh/Lafayette; Holy Cross/Fordham; and Bucknell/Colgate. That's perfection.

2. Create an eighth football member and most importantly a sixth all-sports member. That is a crucial firewall in regards to keeping Patriot League FB together and preventing Fordham and G'Town possibly looking elsewhere.

Those IMO are two pretty damned compelling arguments.

Would be nice. I see the problem being $$$$. Football is by far and away the most expensive sport around, and to be a 'start up' makes it even more so. Loyola would be perfect, but I doubt they have the financial interest in doing it. Only other school in the general neighborhood would be Duquesne.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

BU IS NEVER GOING TO RESTART FOOTBALL. God you PL posters sometimes

+1

[Sader87]

There is absolutely no need for an additional PL football membah....why this obsession persists with some is beyond me.

[Thumper 76]

So I hear BU is adding football and the PL is adding a team or two on top of that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DFW HOYA]

There is absolutely no need for an additional PL football membah....why this obsession persists with some is beyond me.

Three reasons:

1. There are those who consider an eight (or ninth) school as a insurance policy should the autobid requirements increase and/or teams leave.

2. Additional schools offer more in-conference games and less of a need to schedule outside the conference (not all schools have the ability to schedule games as easily as HC)

3. Unlike PL basketball, where expansion has made it somewhat less relevant, key acquisitions can elevate the conference's football profile. Note the word "key"-- Villanova and Richmond would be more valuable than Marist and Monmouth.

[Sader87]

If the PL expanded to 8 or 9 football members, I'd be all for HC leaving the Patriot League....I'm sure I'm hardly alone among HC fans in thinking that way too. We have far more in common (football-wise....historically, geographically etc) with Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale etc than we do with the Pennsylvania PL schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the PL expanded to 8 or 9 football members, I'd be all for HC leaving the Patriot League....I'm sure I'm hardly alone among HC fans in thinking that way too. We have far more in common (football-wise....historically, geographically etc) with Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale etc than we do with the Pennsylvania PL schools.

If the Ivy League accepts you, Godspeed.

[Sader87]

If the Ivy League accepts you, Godspeed.

Playing Devil's advocate, but I could see HC football going independent..... play GTown, Fordham, Villanova... the 4 NE Ivies....UNH, Colgate....maybe a NEC school and an FBS school.

I'd actually prefer that. Couldn't care less about the FCS auto-bid.

[Go...gate]

Then tell me in what universe the NCAA Division I would allow D-III schools to field a Division I basketball team and take another piece of the tournament money.

RPI and Hopkins and a few others were grandfathered into hockey and lacrosse. I suppose it's barely possible they could allow non-DI schools to play D-I in an olympic sport. But the big-money sports of football and basketball? Nuh-uh.

Not talking basketball, talking football, where the Power 5 already have the lion's share of the revenue anyway.

[Danielr11220]

I agree with you that BU restoring football would be the coup de grace, but other than adding numbers (which we've collectively already bickered about), I don't see that "Loyola Football" helps the PL. I'd rather add a Gettysburg before Loyola for football (and yes I know that is impractical given they are DIII - its just for exemplary purposes)

Since W&M, Richmond and VU have been discussed ad nauseum by all, here is my list of next "best", regardless of practicality or likelihood of occurrence (I'm also ignoring any BCS schools coming into the fold, although the two best are already members of the PL for all other sponsored sports)

1. RPI (DIII)
2. Johns Hopkins (DIII)
3. Carnegie Mellon (DIII)
4. Gettysburg College (DIII)
5. Coast Guard Academy (DIII)

Why Not M.I.T? They have lots of cash could take advantage of a Harvard MIT rivalry

[Fox 94]

Schools that want to win at the FCS level do not want the PL. Schools that want the PL for academic appearances want the PL.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[van]

Playing Devil's advocate, but I could see HC football going independent..... play GTown, Fordham, Villanova... the 4 NE Ivies....UNH, Colgate....maybe a NEC school and an FBS school.

I'd actually prefer that. Couldn't care less about the FCS auto-bid.

Easy to understand why the auto bid has little relevance to Crossers.

[DFW HOYA]

Schools that want to win at the FCS level do not want the PL. Schools that want the PL for academic appearances want the PL.


If you're American or BU, maybe. But I seriously doubt anyone looks at Fordham and Georgetown and says PL football affects their academic appearance.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Playing Devil's advocate, but I could see HC football going independent..... play GTown, Fordham, Villanova... the 4 NE Ivies....UNH, Colgate....maybe a NEC school and an FBS school.

I'd actually prefer that. Couldn't care less about the FCS auto-bid.

There is no way we go indy in football but I do agree with you that there is no immediate pressing need for PL football expansion. Fordham is here to stay and it doesn't look like Georgetown is going anywhere, at least for now. Leaving the league would be pointless for Holy Cross football-wise as the 6-game conference slate DOES give us a ton of flexibility to play several New England Ivies, a CAA school and an FBS money game (granted OOC scheduling is not as easy for schools like Bucknell and Georgetown).

As far as the FCS playoffs are concerned, I'd like to think that the PL adding scholarships was at least somewhat motivated by the league wanting to be more competitive in the postseason at our level of football. Since HC has gone along and added the scholarships allowed by the league, I'd hope that I'm not in the minority in wanting to see us compete for national championships.

[LUHawker]

There must be serious longing for the "good ol' days" in Cross-land judging by the comments on i) not caring about the FCS playoffs (of course, when you've been all of ONE time that might not be as irrational as it appears) ii) dumping the PL to play games within a 150 mile radius of NE schools and iii) going indy in the vain hope that the Ivy will come calling

God bless you.

[Fordham]

There must be serious longing for the "good ol' days" in Cross-land judging by the comments on i) not caring about the FCS playoffs (of course, when you've been all of ONE time that might not be as irrational as it appears) ii) dumping the PL to play games within a 150 mile radius of NE schools and iii) going indy in the vain hope that the Ivy will come calling

God bless you.

other than sader, who else is expressing that opinion? I've often been frustrated in the past when someone would read our boards, quote an off the rails post by an anonymous poster and then respond to it as though they were quoting from a press release out of our AD's office. Not saying sader's opinion is off the rails, btw, as I understand where he's coming from. More so just saying that it's one opinion as far as I know and the rest of sadah-nation could be very pro playoff.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

other than sader, who else is expressing that opinion? I've often been frustrated in the past when someone would read our boards, quote an off the rails post by an anonymous poster and then respond to it as though they were quoting from a press release out of our AD's office. Not saying sader's opinion is off the rails, btw, as I understand where he's coming from. More so just saying that it's one opinion as far as I know and the rest of sadah-nation could be very pro playoff.

For that matter, while I did say "the best solution for the PL is for Loyola and/or BU to restart football", nowhere did I say that was even remotely close to happening.

[NY Crusader 2010]

other than sader, who else is expressing that opinion? I've often been frustrated in the past when someone would read our boards, quote an off the rails post by an anonymous poster and then respond to it as though they were quoting from a press release out of our AD's office. Not saying sader's opinion is off the rails, btw, as I understand where he's coming from. More so just saying that it's one opinion as far as I know and the rest of sadah-nation could be very pro playoff.

It's easy to see where 87's view of the PL and the playoffs comes from as, historically, our football roots are heavily entrenched in New England and with the Ivies in particular. The Harvard and Dartmouth games (and UMass when they were FCS) have routinely drawn more interest than our Patriot League opponents.

As LUHawker pointed out, we also have very limited history of playoff participation (with ZERO wins) so much of our following base has limited connection to or interest in the FCS tournament. During the 80's, we were several times faced with the choice between going to the playoffs or facing our rival BC Thanksgiving weekend -- obviously the BC game was the choice. Our best teams in school history followed from 1987-1991 but, at the time the PL had a postseason ban so we had to settle for beating Army, Harvard, Dartmouth and UMass, running roughshod over the Patriot League and then heading into the sunset with 10 or 11 wins and a mythical #1 ranking in I-AA. And obviously since then, HC football has had some hard times. Even seven straight winning seasons from 2005-2011 reaped us merely ONE playoff appearance when we threw the kitchen sink at eventual champ Villanova in the first round.

As sad as it may be, many of our alumni still cling to hope that one day a PL-Ivy bowl game will come to fruition even though this was one of the promises made to us by our "big brother" when the Patriot League was founded in 1986 -- 30 years later it's safe to say that ship has long since sailed. Anyone who thinks this game might soon happen is in denial. The good news is that the majority of our fan base, like the rest of the PL, is VERY energized by the addition of scholarships and is excited at the prospect of legitimately competing for a national championship in football.

[DFW HOYA]

The good news is that the majority of our fan base, like the rest of the PL, is VERY energized by the addition of scholarships and is excited at the prospect of legitimately competing for a national championship in football.

The PL has no fan base south of I-78 and that's why expansion, at some point, is important.

However, if you think scholarships will allow a PL team towards "legitimately competing for a national championship in football", this too is denial. The PL continues to put constraints on admissions and redshirting that will make it very difficult to make the case that, outside of a once every generation run, that PL teams can be legitimately considered as top 5 teams with a finals appearance as a reasonable opportunity.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The PL has no fan base south of I-78 and that's why expansion, at some point, is important.

However, if you think scholarships will allow a PL team towards "legitimately competing for a national championship in football", this too is denial. The PL continues to put constraints on admissions and redshirting that will make it very difficult to make the case that, outside of a once every generation run, that PL teams can be legitimately considered as top 5 teams with a finals appearance as a reasonable opportunity.

I don't exactly expect the next NDSU to come out of the PL, nor do I expect us to surpass or even come even with the CAA in terms of overall strength of conference. However, I do expect the addition of scholarships to bring us to the point of getting multiple teams into the field much more often, and MAYBE once every five years we get a team to make a deep playoff run, maybe to the semis. Sick of our champ being penciled in for a beat-down in Durham, NH in the first round - thank you Colgate for ending that streak last year.

And yes, expansion will benefit the league IF/WHEN it happens. The reason it hasn't yet is because nobody that the league wants is interested (Villanova, Richmond, W&M). I'll pass on VMI, Monmouth, Marist, SHU, Bryant etc. as long as the auto-bid isn't in jeopardy (which it isn't right now).

[Go...gate]

The PL has no fan base south of I-78 and that's why expansion, at some point, is important.

However, if you think scholarships will allow a PL team towards "legitimately competing for a national championship in football", this too is denial. The PL continues to put constraints on admissions and redshirting that will make it very difficult to make the case that, outside of a once every generation run, that PL teams can be legitimately considered as top 5 teams with a finals appearance as a reasonable opportunity.

Disagree.

NYC and a chunk of Northern NJ are south of I-78, and a great many PL alumni come from there. And I believe you guys would have a stronger fan base if your facilities were a bit bigger and more finished.

[RichH2]

The PL has no fan base south of I-78 and that's why expansion, at some point, is important.

However, if you think scholarships will allow a PL team towards "legitimately competing for a national championship in football", this too is denial. The PL continues to put constraints on admissions and redshirting that will make it very difficult to make the case that, outside of a once every generation run, that PL teams can be legitimately considered as top 5 teams with a finals appearance as a reasonable opportunity.


A bit too sanguine DFW. Agree given our current constraints we will not be a poeer conference top to bottom. We will have more of our teams in the top20 on a regular basis. Actual contenders for the National Championship. Annually? Probably not absent one team having a helluva run. Only a generational phenomenon? No, not that infrequently either. Often enough methinks that we wont have 20 page threads wondering the elitist Patriots were actually in a position to be in that game. :):):)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is it unreasonable to expect any less than the success of the CAA? While the CAA doesn't have NC teams every year, they have every expectation that one team could get there. I also seriously doubt Villanova, Richmond, W&M would ever want to come to the PL if they somehow had to temper their NC expectations.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Is it unreasonable to expect any less than the success of the CAA? While the CAA doesn't have NC teams every year, they have every expectation that one team could get there. I also seriously doubt Villanova, Richmond, W&M would ever want to come to the PL if they somehow had to temper their NC expectations.

Agree. Colgate made the national championship game in 2003. Unfortunately, they ran into one of the best FCS teams of the last 25 years.

With the right coach, the right quarterback and the right mix of seniors, a Patriot League team can win the national championship once every 15-20 years.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Agree. Colgate made the national championship game in 2003. Unfortunately, they ran into one of the best FCS teams of the last 25 years.

With the right coach, the right quarterback and the right mix of seniors, a Patriot League team can win the national championship once every 15-20 years.

Lehigh has had 3-4 teams imo that were capable of making a run to the title game had they not run into the eventual champ.

The '98 team had 1st and goal from the 10 with a minute left to win but Umass held. I think Lehigh is able to beat 4 or 5 of the other quarterfinalists without Spadola in 2011. It simply wasn't happening against NDSU in the Fargo Dome. The 2000 team was also nasty. They unfortunately ran into UD who was ridiculously good. The Blue Hens fell to one of GSU's best teams ever led by AP who was a senior. That was one of Tubby's best squads. The 2004 team lost 14-13 to JMU in controversial fashion. That was arguably Lehigh's best defense of the last 30 years. The PL was really good that year. Colgate returned much of the team that reached the finals and Lafayette had its best team since '88.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Is it unreasonable to expect any less than the success of the CAA? While the CAA doesn't have NC teams every year, they have every expectation that one team could get there. I also seriously doubt Villanova, Richmond, W&M would ever want to come to the PL if they somehow had to temper their NC expectations.

The PL held its own against the A10/CAA for a 5-6 year period in the late 90's/early 00's. The expectation should be for a return to that. The CAA will always be deeper but I really think most years the PL's #1 and hopefully #2 can matchup.

The PL has had its up and downs. In the early years HC was a force nationally while Lafayette and Lehigh had some good teams. The league dipped to a middling level after 1991. Starting in '95/'96 Lehigh and Colgate did something the rest of the league didn't. I don't know if they prepared for the playoffs by upping their commitment but those two started to recruit at a much MUCH higher level than the rest of the league. Those two ran the show for a 6-7 year span before Fordham and Lafayette emerged. The league had it's best sustained period of success during this time. Then following the 2005 season the wheels fell off. Lehigh hit the skids, Colgate was solid but a notch below and Lafayette was solid but not spectacular. Since Holy Cross's 2009 team it's been a mixed bag. Starting with the Crusader's 2009 edition every other year the league has had a legitimately good team but very little depth.

[Terry2889]

I remember seeing a FOIA request at some point saying that William & Mary has a pending invite to the Patriot League that they would consider if more teams left the CAA.

I believe that Villanova would have interest as well. I also heard a while back that Richmond saw the Patriot league as a better fit academically.

[Sader87]

The one, one school I could see going PL for football is Villanova. Institutionally (GTown, Fordham and Holy Cross) and geographically (Lehigh, Lafayette etc), VU is a bettah fit in the PL for football than the CAA.

[van]

The one, one school I could see going PL for football is Villanova. Institutionally (GTown, Fordham and Holy Cross) and geographically (Lehigh, Lafayette etc), VU is a bettah fit in the PL for football than the CAA.

Nova is the perfect fit for PL football and the one school I would love to see join, but sadly I don't see it happening in my lifetime

[RichH2]

I believe that Villanova would have interest as well. I also heard a while back that Richmond saw the Patriot league as a better fit academically.
UR asked about admission.Once that became public their alumni uproar killed it promptly.
The desire and the possible future need are there for expansion,there are none acceptable to all candidates. Expect we'll have this discussion again next year.

[Fordham]

Nova is the perfect fit for PL football and the one school I would love to see join, but sadly I don't see it happening in my lifetime
are you on a respirator? #RIP

[Gangtackle11]

Nova is the perfect fit for PL football and the one school I would love to see join, but sadly I don't see it happening in my lifetime

I have seen this asked on the Villanova fan forum from time to time. Appears to be a mixed bag from our fans.

New AD is from USC & has a football background, but it's highly doubtful that Villanova is making a move.

The CAA has lost some luster losing UMass, ODU, etc. the past decade and adding the likes of Albany & Elon, but I think as long as Richmond, W&M, UNH, JMU, & Delaware call the CAA home so will Villanova.

I enjoy seeing PL teams on our out of conference schedule. Look forward to Lehigh & Lafayette the next 2 seasons. I've heard Bucknell will be an opponent in 2018/19 although nothing in the press to confirm. Now that PL is in scholarship I think Nova will play 2 PL teams each season.

Villanova makes sense in many ways, but I'm in the camp it isn't happening unless the CAA implodes.

[DFW HOYA]

I enjoy seeing PL teams on our out of conference schedule. Look forward to Lehigh & Lafayette the next 2 seasons. I've heard Bucknell will be an opponent in 2018/19 although nothing in the press to confirm. Now that PL is in scholarship I think Nova will play 2 PL teams each season.


Lehigh and Lafayette? Check.
Bucknell? Done.
Fordham? Played them 2012-15.
Holy Cross: It's been a while but they played in 2009
Colgate? Not since 2008.

Anyone else? xbangx

[Laker]

I have seen this asked on the Villanova fan forum from time to time. Appears to be a mixed bag from our fans.

New AD is from USC & has a football background, but it's highly doubtful that Villanova is making a move.

The CAA has lost some luster losing UMass, ODU, etc. the past decade and adding the likes of Albany & Elon, but I think as long as Richmond, W&M, UNH, JMU, & Delaware call the CAA home so will Villanova.

I enjoy seeing PL teams on our out of conference schedule. Look forward to Lehigh & Lafayette the next 2 seasons. I've heard Bucknell will be an opponent in 2018/19 although nothing in the press to confirm. Now that PL is in scholarship I think Nova will play 2 PL teams each season.

Villanova makes sense in many ways, but I'm in the camp it isn't happening unless the CAA implodes.

Question- is the national basketball title going to put new emphasis on Nova football, or create more of a push to concentrate on basketball and forget about the gridiron? Or isn't that even talked about?

[Gangtackle11]

Question- is the national basketball title going to put new emphasis on Nova football, or create more of a push to concentrate on basketball and forget about the gridiron? Or isn't that even talked about?

i don't see anything that will change the current focus on football. Villanova is proud of its mens basketball program & it dominates the university's athletic focus. The FBS ship sailed for Villanova with the breakup of Big East Football in 2011-12.

Major fund raising efforts recently raised $96 million ($500 mil+ to school) to athletics with the majority going to renovation of the on campus pavillion. $20 million West End Zone project will house football offices & meeting rooms along with a new Howie Long Strength & Conditioning Center & video scoreboard.

FCS football is alive and well @ Villanova. Hopefully, energetic new AD will make improvements to increase home attendance. Competing for another FCS championship is the goal not de-emphasizing the sport.

We live in a 1927 stadium & deal with a difficult township to improve facilities, but all else is flashing green lights for FCS Football!

[ccd494]

That would certainly leave an unwieldy group: the Yankee Conference legacies (Maine, UNH, URI), two SUNY schools (Albany, Stony Brook), Delaware (the school that realignment may have left behind), Towson, and Elon.

Except the SUNYs and Maine and UNH are all in America East together, which after BU's departure seems remarkably stable. It's one of the few conferences that makes sense anymore, as a mix of tiny states' flagships (Maine, UNH, Vermont), medium sized states' #2 schools (UMass-Lowell, UMBC), the smaller (athletically) SUNYs (Stony Brook, Albany, Binghamton). The outlier is Hartford (a private), but they fit in well enough. All in the northeast corridor. The decline of the CAA in basketball has made it much less likely any of the SUNYs will defect for anything less than an FBS opportunity (which is a long shot).

For CAA Football politics, you have Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook as a bloc, and I'd have to imagine URI's vote follows. The "northern" teams are certainly more cohesive than the "southern." There's a mix of all sports members (William & Mary, Delaware, Elon, James Madison, Towson) who all have different visions, plus Villanova and Richmond.

I don't think there are any major issues splitting the league right now- there's no need to expand. The southern teams got Elon in, which is whatever. If there was a membership shakeup in the South (say JMU to FBS), I can't imagine there being any kind of contentious process to replace them. The CAA would pick an all sports member and everyone would move on. Problems could arise if one of the America East members moves on from both the CAA and AE (say, SBU to the MAC). A lot of the more preferable all sports replacements for the AE have football (CCSU, Bryant, most D-II moveups). There would be some pressure to get them into the CAA for football so they would be able to leave the NEC/NE-10 and not have to turn to the Big South or Independence. I'm not sure that James Madison would be falling all over themselves to do the AE any favors and add a weaker team.

In the event that the CAA is facing defections by JMU (FBS), W&M, Richmond and Villanova (Patriot), something cataclysmic has happened nationwide anyways and it will be a roller coaster for EVERY conference. It would certainly be back to the drawing board, but that isn't the end of the world anyways (AE schools +URI +Bryant +CCSU = 7).

In summation, I don't think the CAA is as fractious as it appears, and I don't think there is any imminent threat to the breakup of the league that would not fracture every league there is.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Except the SUNYs and Maine and UNH are all in America East together, which after BU's departure seems remarkably stable. It's one of the few conferences that makes sense anymore, as a mix of tiny states' flagships (Maine, UNH, Vermont), medium sized states' #2 schools (UMass-Lowell, UMBC), the smaller (athletically) SUNYs (Stony Brook, Albany, Binghamton). The outlier is Hartford (a private), but they fit in well enough. All in the northeast corridor. The decline of the CAA in basketball has made it much less likely any of the SUNYs will defect for anything less than an FBS opportunity (which is a long shot).

Stony Brook to me appears to want in on FBS football. The issue would be finding a conference that makes sense.

[PAllen]

Stony Brook to me appears to want in on FBS football. The issue would be finding a conference that makes sense.

MAC-East with UMass, JMU, Delaware, Nova, and UB?

[ccd494]

MAC-East with UMass, JMU, Delaware, Nova, and UB?

What does the MAC get out of that? The MAC isn't making decisions based upon getting "MAC TV" or whatever on the air in NYC/Boston/Philly/DC. None of those schools are goosing ESPN's ratings for Tuesday night MACtion. UMass would have possibly helped the basketball RPI but were booted because they wouldn't move out of the A-10. Villanova won't leave the Big East for the MAC in all sports. Delaware/JMU might, but that isn't doing much for MAC basketball (probably hurting).

The MAC, to me, doesn't need to expand or grow. SBU has nowhere to really go. So, like I said, pretty stable in the northeast.

[UNHWildcat18]

While I agree nova may fit more academically with PL schools than some CAA/AE schools I think you are all ****ing bonkers saying Villanova football is a better fit in the PL. Villanova is top of the line for basketball and other sports in the big east. They want to play in the best possible conference(geographically fitting before I get some MVFC post) for FCS football against the top of the line competition. Nova isn't going to trade Playing at JMU W&M or UNH for ****ing Georgetown or bucknell for "academic alignment"

[Sitting Bull]

Stony Brook to me appears to want in on FBS football. The issue would be finding a conference that makes sense.

Since we are hot on the heels of the Coastal situation, doesn't SBU need a stadium and a few more fans first?

[Gangtackle11]

While I agree nova may fit more academically with PL schools than some CAA/AE schools I think you are all ****ing bonkers saying Villanova football is a better fit in the PL. Villanova is top of the line for basketball and other sports in the big east. They want to play in the best possible conference(geographically fitting before I get some MVFC post) for FCS football against the top of the line competition. Nova isn't going to trade Playing at JMU W&M or UNH for ****ing Georgetown or bucknell for "academic alignment"

Bingo.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Since we are hot on the heels of the Coastal situation, doesn't SBU need a stadium and a few more fans first?

Yes!

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Patriot League football membership seems stable. I would much prefer that the PL worked on better packaging for the conference as scholarships become the new norm (well, 6/7). Football marketing seems to have been primarily an institutional concern. Collectively spending a lot more money on a single sport might call for some collective thought on how to leverage the investment.