Patriot League Expansion?

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

If so, I wish St. Francis would jump to the Patriot League. The NEC is a sinking, stagnating ship.

[LeopardBall10]

Been hashed, re-hashed, and re-re-hashed. They try to add someone every year, but the AI and no redshirting make it a nonstarter for most regional FCS teams. And I know DFW is going to be hot on my trail, but the possible "academic peers" to add to the league or few and far between. The same list of candidates get cylced through each year and each year they say, "Not interested."

[LeopardBall10]

Not to mention that the student reporter from the Brown and White, while I am sure he is very good at writing a for the campus paper, has no idea what he is talking about.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I thought the article was good. It wasn't about expansion per se, it was more of an exploration of the challenges of PL scheduling, and on that note it hits everything pretty much on the head.

Having said that, LB10 is correct in that when it comes to expansion, the candidates don't change much.

Personally my favorite solution is BU and Loyola restarting football. Nine football schools, 8 conference/3 OOC games, and nothing to mess up the other sports. If you start looking at adding all-sports members, they almost have to come in as a pair to make 12 teams, like Monmouth/Bryant, Marist/SFPA, or something like that. And that's before the inevitable snootiness battle about how all of these candidates shouldn't be actively considered "because we're more dignified than that" or some other asinine argument.

[ColgateTD]

We're more dignified than accepting schools such as BU, Loyola, Sacred Heart and their ilk. Let's keep the PL pure.

[RichH2]

Been hashed, re-hashed, and re-re-hashed. They try to add someone every year, but the AI and no redshirting make it a nonstarter for most regional FCS teams. And I know DFW is going to be hot on my trail, but the possible "academic peers" to add to the league or few and far between. The same list of candidates get cylced through each year and each year they say, "Not interested."
Really should go back and get cites for the 47 prior threads on this topic.:)
Read article this AM. Well researched and written but nothing we havn't said before.
Coen's comment on the difficulty of scheduling so many OOC games was intetesting.
The topic wont die until we either expand or disband.

[Pard4Life]

A PATRIOT LEAGUE EXPANSION THREAD!?!??!?!??!?!?

https://lifeonahigh.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/crazy-goat.jpg?w=630&h=435

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I apologize if I inadvertently rehashed an old theme.

[Lehigh'98]

It's OK, good article. Coen sounds so soft saying he doesn't want to go play better teams on the west coast. One game every 2-3 yrs out there, perhaps a home and home, would be a great challenge for the team and measuring stick for the program. Wish he wouldn't have said that.

[RichH2]

I apologize if I inadvertently rehashed an old theme.
No sweat Knight. If you hsdn't ,a PL poster would have :). Just frustration. We all know expansion is important but until either we change (unlikely) or the landscape does (hopefully),nothing will happen.

[Pard4Life]

No sweat Knight. If you hsdn't ,a PL poster would have :). Just frustration. We all know expansion is important but until either we change (unlikely) or the landscape does (hopefully),nothing will happen.

Nobody should respond to this thread! NO-BOD-Y!!! Any serious discussion should be met with thread replies like:

http://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Boards/738/3738/244495.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's a matter of public knowledge who has been offered. Their response has been "not just yet." So it's just going to remain the way it is for a while, which is fine with me.

[Model Citizen]

In the spirit of WVU to the Big 12, I suggest...San Diego.

[Pard4Life]

In the spirit of WVU to the Big 12, I suggest...San Diego.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/stay_classy.png

[Model Citizen]

On the other hand, if you want to stay regional -- and get a sixth all-sports member with football -- talk to Marist.

[RichH2]

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/stay_classy.png
:):) Perfect.

[Sader87]

I want less PL games actually......

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't see any real reason to expand now that Georgetown seems to have things headed in the right direction. The only school that ever really interested me is Duquesne. I think their hoops program would have to be reeled in though. Academically they're similar to Fordham in terms of reputation. It's not an overly rich school though...

[ngineer]

I thought the article was good. It wasn't about expansion per se, it was more of an exploration of the challenges of PL scheduling, and on that note it hits everything pretty much on the head.

Having said that, LB10 is correct in that when it comes to expansion, the candidates don't change much.

Personally my favorite solution is BU and Loyola restarting football. Nine football schools, 8 conference/3 OOC games, and nothing to mess up the other sports. If you start looking at adding all-sports members, they almost have to come in as a pair to make 12 teams, like Monmouth/Bryant, Marist/SFPA, or something like that. And that's before the inevitable snootiness battle about how all of these candidates shouldn't be actively considered "because we're more dignified than that" or some other asinine argument.

It's not about "snootiness". It's about being able to have a conference where the playing field is relatively level for everyone recruiting like students. The ultimate decision is up to the Council of Presidents and the academic footprint of the league is an important component.

[Sader87]

The PL killed HC athletics (in football and basketball anyway)....love to leave this league actually

[Bill]

The PL killed HC athletics (in football and basketball anyway)....love to leave this league actually

And go where?xdrunkyx

[Sader87]

And go where?xdrunkyx

The CAA in football and Big East hoop, much like Villanova...we ****ed up, big time

[CHIP72]

RE: Patriot League non-conference games, I wouldn't look past scheduling one regional D2 game per season or at least in some seasons, especially if a team is having a hard time filling its schedule. The problem there schedule-wise is actually on the D2 end because the D2 leagues in the same footprint as the Patriot League, primarily the PSAC and Northeast-10 (and the CIAA and Mountain East Conference to a lesser degree), have a limited number of non-conference games available. I do know some of the Northeast Conference teams played some NE-10 and CIAA teams this year.

Going in the other direction, now that the Patriot League has athletic scholarships, I would also pursue games against FBS/Division I-A teams within the region, provided the FBS teams/leagues are agreeable to those games. Playing teams like Syracuse, Connecticut, Temple, and even Buffalo would be appealing to some PL teams. Actually, the Patriot League teams have enough openings that they could schedule both an FBS team and a D2 team in the same season. I know North Dakota State has done that at least once or twice in recent seasons.

[Sader87]

Blah. blah, blah.....Holy Cross has has more than the effect than peeking on clowns like these....whtevahhhh !!!!

[Go...gate]

I would not have a problem with BU starting up football again, as they were a periodic Colgate opponent through the 1990s and do have a very strong academic profile - recently named #38 in a ranking of top international universities.

Loyola was a mistake from the beginning - Marist was (and still is) the better choice.

And let's not forget that the PL turned down Hofstra, which REALLY wanted to join because of the academic angle and, like American, saw the move as one element in a broader strategic plan (including the investment of substantial $$ in academic facilities and programs) which would greatly enhance the stature of the institution. They would have been a good fit.

Villanova, W&M and Richmond are not coming aboard, nor is VMI.

Bottom line is that expansion seems unlikely any time soon.

[UNHWildcat18]

The CAA in football and Big East hoop, much like Villanova...we ****ed up, big time

It's okay you can come to the CAA when JMU leaves so the split of north and south doesn't have to split UD and Nova

[CFBfan]

The PL killed HC athletics (in football and basketball anyway)....love to leave this league actually

the PL did NOT "kill" HC athletics, HC "killed" HC athletics!!!
so many reasons why and look at how long HC has allowed a below average coach like Tom Gilmore to roam their sidelines!!!!!

[carney2]

Based on the latest League additions (American, Boston University, Loyola), I'm not hopeful about any decisions coming out of the League office. Most of those NEC and Pioneer League schools mentioned in this thread and elsewhere aren't a solution, they are a sentence. The best option at the moment is to do nothing until (if) good partners come along.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I would not have a problem with BU starting up football again, as they were a periodic Colgate opponent through the 1990s and do have a very strong academic profile - recently named #38 in a ranking of top international universities.

Loyola was a mistake from the beginning - Marist was (and still is) the better choice.

And let's not forget that the PL turned down Hofstra, which REALLY wanted to join because of the academic angle and, like American, saw the move as one element in a broader strategic plan (including the investment of substantial $$ in academic facilities and programs) which would greatly enhance the stature of the institution. They would have been a good fit.

Villanova, W&M and Richmond are not coming aboard, nor is VMI.

Bottom line is that expansion seems unlikely any time soon.

Agree that expansion seems unlikely anytime soon as the list of candidates who would actually want to join mostly consists of schools the PL doesn't want (i.e. Hofstra, Monmouth, NJIT, Bryant, Marist, Iona before they dropped FB).

For football, my realistic choices for expansion in order would be:

1) Boston U. bringing back football -- a number of schools with defunct programs have successfully come back to life recently and I'd love BU to be the first to do so in New England. Historic stadium, decent history and a huge student/alumni base to draw from for support.
2) Duquesne - they wouldn't join the PL for all-sports but good fit for football.
3) Sacred Heart - up-and-coming school, commitment to growing sports programs with Bobby V there, would join as full time-member
4) Dayton - consistently winning program at non-scholarship level; probably would've been a better candidate pre-2012 with the move to scholarships

I have friends that played football at Marist but I'm sorry they do nothing to move the needle for me as either an all-sports or football affiliate.

Since, this is a football thread, I'm not going to get too deep into full membership but would love to see the league bring in Fordham for all sports. I wouldn't mind seeing American and/or Loyola go -- their athletic model of sponsoring approximately three men's sports each with no football doesn't really fit the PL model.

[Sader87]

1.BU is nevah, evah bringing back football.

2.FU is nevah coming back as a full-time membah.

3The only schools that make a lick of sense in joining the PL in football are Villanova, Richmond and W&M.

4. I actually like the fact that we have only 6 league games....the OOC portion of our schedule has always been more entertaining.

[aceinthehole]

Agree that expansion seems unlikely anytime soon as the list of candidates who would actually want to join mostly consists of schools the PL doesn't want (i.e. Hofstra, Monmouth, NJIT, Bryant, Marist, Iona before they dropped FB).

For football, my realistic choices for expansion in order would be:

1) Boston U. bringing back football -- a number of schools with defunct programs have successfully come back to life recently and I'd love BU to be the first to do so in New England. Historic stadium, decent history and a huge student/alumni base to draw from for support.
2) Duquesne - they wouldn't join the PL for all-sports but good fit for football.
3) Sacred Heart - up-and-coming school, commitment to growing sports programs with Bobby V there, would join as full time-member
4) Dayton - consistently winning program at non-scholarship level; probably would've been a better candidate pre-2012 with the move to scholarships

I have friends that played football at Marist but I'm sorry they do nothing to move the needle for me as either an all-sports or football affiliate.

Since, this is a football thread, I'm not going to get too deep into full membership but would love to see the league bring in Fordham for all sports. I wouldn't mind seeing American and/or Loyola go -- their athletic model of sponsoring approximately three men's sports each with no football doesn't really fit the PL model.

With all due respect to my many SHU friends and alumni - you cant be serious about adding the Pioneers to the PL? The school was established in 1964 and its academics aren't in the ballpark with the Patriot League. You probably have professors at Lafayette that have been teaching longer than SHU has been established. You have books in the library older than Sacred Heart.

[NY Crusader 2010]

With all due respect to my many SHU friends and alumni - you cant be serious about adding the Pioneers to the PL? The school was established in 1964 and its academics aren't in the ballpark with the Patriot League. You probably have professors at Lafayette that have been teaching longer than SHU has been established. You have books in the library older than Sacred Heart.

That's why I described SHU as "up-and-coming". Their athletics have more to offer than most of the realistic PL expansion candidates.

- - - Updated - - -


1.BU is nevah, evah bringing back football.

2.FU is nevah coming back as a full-time membah.

3The only schools that make a lick of sense in joining the PL in football are Villanova, Richmond and W&M.

4. I actually like the fact that we have only 6 league games....the OOC portion of our schedule has always been more entertaining.

Not happening on all three counts.

[LUHawker]

This is well worn territory, but if we could ever get RPI to move to DI, that would be a great fit for the PL that doesn't require our other preferred candidates to "compromise" on AI or red shirting.

[Pard4Life]

Please for the love of Jerry Rice... STOP POSTING ON THIS TOPIC

DEAD

NOBODY IS STARTING UP FOOTBALL IN 2015 NOT IN THE SOUTH

[DFW HOYA]

1. Unless Fordham went CAA or Georgetown went independent, the PL has no drive to add schools. The southern schools are not looking to move north, and it would take a sea-change at Villanova to sell them on the merits of the Patriot League.

2. Of the other supposed candidates, only Bryant and Marist would probably be interested in full time status, but closer to the academic weight of Loyola and American than Colgate and Lafayette.

3. The PL bylaws require a minimum of five full members to sponsor a sport. If the CAA somehow convinced Holy Cross it had a home there, the pressure for a new full time member escalates immediately. Until then, again, not likely.

[Gater]

I don't know anything about Coen, but this is a really surprising quote from him in this article (that Lehigh'98 references):

"Coen said that he occasionally gets phone calls in the offseason from less proximate schools such as Montana State University and North Dakota State University looking to schedule games. These schools aren’t just far away though, they’re also very consistently top FCS teams. North Dakota State has won the FCS championship four years in a row. Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for. 'There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,' he said.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's okay you can come to America East when JMU leaves so the split of north and south doesn't have to split UD and Nova

FIFY

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't know anything about Coen, but this is a really surprising quote from him in this article (that Lehigh'98 references):

"Coen said that he occasionally gets phone calls in the offseason from less proximate schools such as Montana State University and North Dakota State University looking to schedule games. These schools aren’t just far away though, they’re also very consistently top FCS teams. North Dakota State has won the FCS championship four years in a row. Coen said that while games like these can be a great experience for the student athletes by exposing them to a different part of the country, they’re just not what they’re looking for. 'There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,' he said.



Yeah, I noted this too. What if that team were LSU? I would think that would be worthwhile...

[Gater]

He's talking about not being able to compete with the teams at the top of the FCS.

[Doc QB]

He's talking about not being able to compete with the teams at the top of the FCS.
Which is exactly why we should not begin to even consider playing and FBS team on that level. We need to compete better nationally at FCS first. And dare I say foremost. And we aint doin' it yet. Our leader's comments dont instill confidence that he has vision to get there, despite, having been able to do it in the past. Mind boggling comment.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Which is exactly why we should not begin to even consider playing and FBS team on that level. We need to compete better nationally at FCS first. And dare I say foremost. And we aint doin' it yet. Our leader's comments dont instill confidence that he has vision to get there, despite, having been able to do it in the past. Mind boggling comment.

Fordham and Colgate have played FBS teams in each of the past three years, and they are now fighting for the PL championship. I don't believe that to be a coincidence.

[RichH2]

He's talking about not being able to compete with the teams at the top of the FCS.
My impression is he is referring to now ,not necessarily the future. Expect that will change after a few years at 60,if rdcruiting continues to be successful. Scheduling 3 and 4 years in advance ,AD needs a crystal ball to gauge whether the team that year colud be competitive. The guarantee for a top FCS does not approach the amt we could get from a more local FBS team.

[2ram]

4. I actually like the fact that we have only 6 league games....the OOC portion of our schedule has always been more entertaining.

have to agree, i enjoy our OOC schedule more than the conference schedule.

i'm sure if the PL were to get better as a whole that would change, but as of now, it's hard to get excited about playing sub .500 teams every week.

[2ram]

Fordham and Colgate have played FBS teams in each of the past three years, and they are now fighting for the PL championship. I don't believe that to be a coincidence.


right you are LFN. FBS games help attract a better quality recruit imo.

if you schedule down, don't expect the best players in your recruiting pool to go down with you... unless you're hahvahd.

[Gater]

I think you are right, RichH2 but what are you saying to your team? Are you playing for a national championship at the beginning of the season? It wouldn't take a lot for Lehigh to get the autobid this year and beat an NEC team in the first round--and then travel to play one of these teams (probably not Montana State since they are 8th in the Big Sky). Strange that the coach would say to the school paper that there is no point scheduling these games because those teams are just better than us. What's the ceiling for Lehigh in the FCS? I can certainly see Lehigh getting on a run and winning it all any given year and I'm a Colgate guy. And shouldn't things be improving with scholarships moving forward? I would think the mindset would be, "We're getting a lot better and we are willing to take on anybody."

Also, I 100% agree with 2ram but I'd like to keep that a secret.

[RichH2]

I think you are right, RichH2 but whuat are you saying to your team? Are you playing for a national championship at the beginning of the season? It wouldn't take a lot for Lehigh to get the autobid this year and beat an NEC team in the first round--and then travel to play one of these teams (probably not Montana State since they are 8th in the Big Sky). Strange that the coach would say to the school paper that there is no point scheduling these games because those teams are just better than us. What's the ceiling for Lehigh in the FCS? I can certainly see Lehigh getting on a run and winning it all any given year and I'm a Colgate guy. And shouldn't things be improving with scholarships moving forward? I would think the mindset would be, "We're getting a lot better and we are willing to take on anybody."

Also, I 100% agree with 2ram but I'd like to keep that a secret.
Actually dont disagree. While I would have preferred Andy not saying that,he did and it was a realistic and honest view.
Personally,I had hoped we would schedule more FBS. Perhaps we have,only time will tell,cause Joe sure ain't:).
Agree tho with Andy on not stressing to schedule distant top FCS teams. We have enough in the NE to fill the bill.

[Pard4Life]

Fordham and Colgate have played FBS teams in each of the past three years, and they are now fighting for the PL championship. I don't believe that to be a coincidence.

It is.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It is.

I agree xthumbsupx

[LUHawker]

have to agree, i enjoy our OOC schedule more than the conference schedule.

i'm sure if the PL were to get better as a whole that would change, but as of now, it's hard to get excited about playing sub .500 teams every week.

Funny 2ram - your sentiments regarding the conference schedule is exactly how most of us PLers felt about playing Fordham these past 20+ years. Outside of FU's recent success (and I'd argue that even here FU underperformed/underachieved), FU has been irrelevant.

I find it somewhat galling that some FU fans have adopted an arrogant attidtude towards the PL as if the PL might be beneath Fordham from a competitive football standpoint. You guys have been playing with a built in advantage for the past 4 years (as well as some unique circumstances that extended that advantage i.e. Pickups of great local talent from Hofstra when they disbanded football as well as the plus 1 addition of an FBS QB when Moorhead joined) which we are even now seeing get marginalized.

In general I like playing Fordham, but find the recent tone to be a bit much.

[LUHawker]

It is.
Agreed. LFN is looking for data to support his dream of Lehigh playing LSU. I hope it doesn't happen.

[CHIP72]

I think you are right, RichH2 but what are you saying to your team? Are you playing for a national championship at the beginning of the season? It wouldn't take a lot for Lehigh to get the autobid this year and beat an NEC team in the first round--and then travel to play one of these teams (probably not Montana State since they are 8th in the Big Sky). Strange that the coach would say to the school paper that there is no point scheduling these games because those teams are just better than us. What's the ceiling for Lehigh in the FCS? I can certainly see Lehigh getting on a run and winning it all any given year and I'm a Colgate guy. And shouldn't things be improving with scholarships moving forward? I would think the mindset would be, "We're getting a lot better and we are willing to take on anybody."

Also, I 100% agree with 2ram but I'd like to keep that a secret.

The bolded part is actually coach-speak for "there's no reason for us to travel 3/4 of the way across the country to play in a very rural area that would probably be unappealing to most of the players, where the financial payoff we receive is relatively small, and we have limited opportunities to grab recruits".

[blackbeard]

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/10/29/pl-football-scheduling/

If so, I wish St. Francis would jump to the Patriot League. The NEC is a sinking, stagnating ship.

If there is a sinking ship, St Francis is one of the leading causes - NEC 2015 Average Home Attendance:

Bryant 6,181
Sacred Heart 4,582
CCSU 3,490
Wagner 2,271
Robert Morris 1,721
St Francis 1,593
Duquesne 1,285

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Personally I am a bit stupefied as to why a Lehigh @ LSU game is considered with such disdain. When Colgate played @ Air Force, did anyone even raise a single whimper?

Ask a current player or prospect whether they would want to compete against LSU. Do you think a single one would say no, I'd rather have a home game vs. Monmouth?

[PAllen]

"Compete" is not the word I would use for a game at LSU.

[RichH2]

Personally I am a bit stupefied as to why a Lehigh @ LSU game is considered with such disdain. When Colgate played @ Air Force, did anyone even raise a single whimper?

Ask a current player or prospect whether they would want to compete against LSU. Do you think a single one would say no, I'd rather have a home game vs. Monmouth?
It is not disdain,so much as why should we? There is a world of difference between LSU and AFA. True we would make a lot of money but at what cost? I would sooner play Vandy or Duke,if we go south.

[Bogus Megapardus]

have to agree, i enjoy our OOC schedule more than the conference schedule.

i'm sure if the PL were to get better as a whole that would change, but as of now, it's hard to get excited about playing sub .500 teams every week.

I hear you, 2ram, but I am of two minds on this. I like the OOC schedule for the challenge, but also I like the PL schedule for the rivalries. Most of them go WAY back and they're comforting; it's "our" brand of football. If we're playing Holy Cross or Colgate or whomever I almost never consider the other team's record. I enjoy the game simply because it's Holy Cross or Colgate or whomever.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's what I don't get.


'There’s no reason to go three quarters of the way across the country to play a team that’s better than you,' he said.

Coen is getting criticized for saying this. Yet when I bring up LSU, suddenly, everyone agrees with his statement?

It's as if people are selectively defining "better than you" as "Vanderbilt better than you is OK, but not LSU better than you."

Lehigh men's hoops plays Syracuse, UVA and Purdue this season. Nobody says about Lehigh basketball, "there's no reason to play these games because they are way better than us." So why are we making excuses for football?

[CHIP72]

Personally I am a bit stupefied as to why a Lehigh @ LSU game is considered with such disdain. When Colgate played @ Air Force, did anyone even raise a single whimper?

Ask a current player or prospect whether they would want to compete against LSU. Do you think a single one would say no, I'd rather have a home game vs. Monmouth?

My personal opinion is if Lehigh were to play a FBS P5 team, most Lehigh fans - and probably most Lehigh players - would rather see them play a team from somewhere closer than Louisiana. A team like Virginia - not an overwhelming powerhouse but often competitive, located in an area close enough for fans to get to by far enough away to be a "special" trip, located near the Appalachian Mountains like Lehigh, well-regarded school academically - would be the kind of opponent that IMO would be more appealing to a higher number of Lehigh fans.

[van]

Here's what I don't get.



Coen is getting criticized for saying this. Yet when I bring up LSU, suddenly, everyone agrees with his statement?

It's as if people are selectively defining "better than you" as "Vanderbilt better than you is OK, but not LSU better than you."

Lehigh men's hoops plays Syracuse, UVA and Purdue this season. Nobody says about Lehigh basketball, "there's no reason to play these games because they are way better than us." So why are we making excuses for football?

hoops does not need to win 7 games to qualify for playoffs, hoopsters not likely to have knees and shoulders blown out from playing cuse, uva or purdue, cuse uva and purdue have 12 or 13 scholarships same as Lehigh, cuse, uva and purdue are in the same classification as Lehigh, and recent hoops success is allowing scheduling of those schools, food for thought

[heath]

hoops does not need to win 7 games to qualify for playoffs, hoopsters not likely to have knees and shoulders blown out from playing cuse, uva or purdue, cuse uva and purdue have 12 or 13 scholarships same as Lehigh, cuse, uva and purdue are in the same classification as Lehigh, and recent hoops success is allowing scheduling of those schools, food for thought
Recent hoops success?xlolx Please

[heath]

Which is exactly why we should not begin to even consider playing and FBS team on that level. We need to compete better nationally at FCS first. And dare I say foremost. And we aint doin' it yet. Our leader's comments dont instill confidence that he has vision to get there, despite, having been able to do it in the past. Mind boggling comment.
Nope Doc! when you played you wanted to play up, and the best to test your manhood. Get the pay day,get on a national stage and recruit/take off. I'm so so sick of the the pansy attitude, and so are ex/current playersxeyebrowxxeyebrowx

[DFW HOYA]

If there is a sinking ship, St Francis is one of the leading causes - NEC 2015 Average Home Attendance:

Bryant 6,181
Sacred Heart 4,582
CCSU 3,490
Wagner 2,271
Robert Morris 1,721
St Francis 1,593
Duquesne 1,285

For a town of 1,300, with a campus of 1,800, in one of the more rural portions of the Eastern U.S., the attendance for the Frankies isn't bad.

Duquesne, on the other hand, is surprising. This team was drawing upwards of 4,000 in the MAAC days.

[ngineer]

It is not disdain,so much as why should we? There is a world of difference between LSU and AFA. True we would make a lot of money but at what cost? I would sooner play Vandy or Duke,if we go south.

Agreed. No sense risking the health of the squad going into Death Valley despite a $500K payday. AFA, Wake Forest, Duke, Rice, UVA are all schools who we could compete with and on anygiven Saturday with some breaks could pull a shocker. We've done it in the past. We need to 'schedule up' every so often.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agreed. No sense risking the health of the squad going into Death Valley despite a $500K payday. AFA, Wake Forest, Duke, Rice, UVA are all schools who we could compete with and on anygiven Saturday with some breaks could pull a shocker. We've done it in the past. We need to 'schedule up' every so often.

Why couldn't this happen with LSU, too?

Appalachian State didn't pause and say playing Michigan was too hard. They knew the odds were long and did it anyway - and they won.

If you're making the commitment to schedule up, why set an artificial limit?

[RichH2]

Here's what I don't get.



Coen is getting criticized for saying this. Yet when I bring up LSU, suddenly, everyone agrees with his statement?

It's as if people are selectively defining "better than you" as "Vanderbilt better than you is OK, but not LSU better than you."

Lehigh men's hoops plays Syracuse, UVA and Purdue this season. Nobody says about Lehigh basketball, "there's no reason to play these games because they are way better than us." So why are we making excuses for football?
Bball and Fball are not comparable in this conversation. Win or lose in Bball,we would not be physically.decimated. Bball can have a couple of top tier players and compete as we have all seen. Fball requires much much more. The schollie limit and the AI militate against Lehigh having enough athletes to compete with that kind of team.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

My personal opinion is if Lehigh were to play a FBS P5 team, most Lehigh fans - and probably most Lehigh players - would rather see them play a team from somewhere closer than Louisiana. A team like Virginia - not an overwhelming powerhouse but often competitive, located in an area close enough for fans to get to by far enough away to be a "special" trip, located near the Appalachian Mountains like Lehigh, well-regarded school academically - would be the kind of opponent that IMO would be more appealing to a higher number of Lehigh fans.

UVA would be great! Temple or Lehigh playing down there would be awesome! I had lunch in Charlottesville on the way back from ECU! Great college town! Beautiful campus! Gorgeous Area!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Bball and Fball are not comparable in this conversation. Win or lose in Bball,we would not be physically.decimated. Bball can have a couple of top tier players and compete as we have all seen. Fball requires much much more. The schollie limit and the AI militate against Lehigh having enough athletes to compete with that kind of team.

I'm with you! I actually think basketball has a punchers chance against Syracuse in a couple weeks!

[Franks Tanks]

I think Andy meant he doesn't have to go to Montana to get his doors blown off. He can get the same experience playing FCS teams from PA, Virginia, MD, NY and New England. He can get his butt kicked just fine closer to home.

Also playing LSU is just stupid. PL teams don't need to sacrifice their kids for a payday. We have the money. We should look to play teams where the game at least has a chance to be competitive like the service academies and some name schools who aren't very good like Wake or UCONN. Granted it is hard to know which teams will be poor 3-4 years in advance, but schedule programs that we should at least have a chance to make a game out of the deal.

[PAllen]

Why couldn't this happen with LSU, too?

Appalachian State didn't pause and say playing Michigan was too hard. They knew the odds were long and did it anyway - and they won.

If you're making the commitment to schedule up, why set an artificial limit?

When we win two back to back national titles and are headed to a third, then you can ask again.

[Bogus Megapardus]

When we win two back to back national titles and are headed to a third, then you can ask again.

Pards have won three national titles . . . xrolleyesx :p xnodx

[2ram]

Funny 2ram - your sentiments regarding the conference schedule is exactly how most of us PLers felt about playing Fordham these past 20+ years. Outside of FU's recent success (and I'd argue that even here FU underperformed/underachieved), FU has been irrelevant.

I find it somewhat galling that some FU fans have adopted an arrogant attidtude towards the PL as if the PL might be beneath Fordham from a competitive football standpoint. You guys have been playing with a built in advantage for the past 4 years (as well as some unique circumstances that extended that advantage i.e. Pickups of great local talent from Hofstra when they disbanded football as well as the plus 1 addition of an FBS QB when Moorhead joined) which we are even now seeing get marginalized.

In general I like playing Fordham, but find the recent tone to be a bit much.

slow down, you're too busy being offended.

the PL has been an FCS doormat for decades. i've never been much excited about PL games, save the occasional interesting one, and that includes these past few years, the early 2000's playoff team PL schedule, and the skelton years... which btw adds up to quite a few good FU teams, that's about as many good teams as the average league team has fielded.

put another way, do you enjoy your sub .500 conference schedule, year in, year out? do you enjoy it more whether you're 1-10 or 10-1?

sorry if that's blunt, but you're so full of assumption it's hard to respond. if you just put thoughts and words into mouths, who are you really arguing with?

[Go...gate]

I believe that it is dead wrong that "the PL has been an FCS doormat for decades". On the contrary, in the thirty years of the league's existence, there have been a number of years where multiple member schools made the playoffs and periodically advanced one or more rounds. While the transition to scholarships has created some unexpected problems, that should not imply that the conference has always struggled.

From a Colgate standpoint, I like the conference schedule because, with the exception of Fordham and and Georgetown, the "Core Five" have been traditional Colgate opponents over at least a fifty-five year span and in most cases, MUCH longer.

There are a number of posters on the Fordham Football VoyForums board who openly disdain the Patriot League. Though your name does not identify you as one of those posters, what you say displays what what many members of that board believe. If Fordham is so convinced that it has outgrown and outpaced the Patriot League, perhaps the Rams belong elsewhere.

Just my two cents.

[CHIP72]

I can tell you as someone who roots for a couple teams in the Atlantic 10 in basketball, there are a lot of people who disdain having Fordham, a perennial doormat, on the schedule every year.

[RichH2]

"doormat"?? Hardly! Suggest you spend a few minutes reviewing the history of PL in the playoffs and final season rankings. That we are not the CAA or SoCon does not equate to a doormat.

[Gate83]

Completely agree that there are some matchups that are more attractive than others. I had a great time traveling to both Air Force and Navy within the past 3 seasons, didn't even consider heading to Ball State and have a tough time getting enthusiastic about Buffalo a couple of years from now. But if you told me the Red Raiders were headed to Baton Rouge... I'd have tickets way in advance, and the players would be pumped. Regarding injuries we lost our best CB against Navy this year but sustained little other damage while Lafayette can't finish practice without somebody getting hurt. Just don't think its predictable, and not a valid reason to shy away from playing anyone.

[Gate83]

Happy to have Fordham in the PL. We're 21-6 vs the Rams historically, games in the Bronx are 45 minutes away. What's not to like?

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

For a town of 1,300, with a campus of 1,800, in one of the more rural portions of the Eastern U.S., the attendance for the Frankies isn't bad.

Duquesne, on the other hand, is surprising. This team was drawing upwards of 4,000 in the MAAC days.


Don't forget about the beast called Penn State only 40 minutes away. St. Francis is a mountain outpost in Happy Valley.

[2ram]

I believe that it is dead wrong that "the PL has been an FCS doormat for decades". On the contrary, in the thirty years of the league's existence, there have been a number of years where multiple member schools made the playoffs and periodically advanced one or more rounds. While the transition to scholarships has created some unexpected problems, that should not imply that the conference has always struggled.

From a Colgate standpoint, I like the conference schedule because, with the exception of Fordham and and Georgetown, the "Core Five" have been traditional Colgate opponents over at least a fifty-five year span and in most cases, MUCH longer.

There are a number of posters on the Fordham Football VoyForums board who openly disdain the Patriot League. Though your name does not identify you as one of those posters, what you say displays what what many members of that board believe. If Fordham is so convinced that it has outgrown and outpaced the Patriot League, perhaps the Rams belong elsewhere.

Just my two cents.

you're putting words and thoughts into my posts that don't exist, between facts that do. a no, no.

the PL is a 1 bid league that usually places it's conference champ and that's it. even in the few years it gets an at-large as well, it rarely places a team past the 1st round with only a few advancing to the 2nd. only 2 teams have made it past the 2nd round in over 15 years, including lehigh's one and done squad from 2011 and unfortunate shafting in 2012. now maybe saying doormat was a tad hyberbolic, but it's not like the PL is blazing the history books with championship glory... or any championship for that matter.

i like the PL. i like the member schools, and i think it's a good place for fordham football. but that doesn't change the fact that the best part of our schedule in recent years has been the OOC. one of the best aspects of the PL having few members is the opportunities in OOC scheduling. anyone that thinks we belong in another conference, like the CAA, is fooling themselves into thinking we can sustain success longer than we can hold a great coach.

i enjoyed the army game this year thoroughly, not just because it was FBS, but because i could actually watch it on my couch with real announcers, DVR it, etc. a 'real' football experience... at least from the perspective of the couch. i was more excited for 'nova than any other game on our PL schedule. that's not because army or 'nova are awesome, it's because PL teams rarely are, and this year is the poster child for that sentiment. not 1 team, other than fordham, with a winning record. that's not bragging about the rams, it's a statement about the league, which i think we all hope is heading in the right direction... finally.

[2ram]

I hear you, 2ram, but I am of two minds on this. I like the OOC schedule for the challenge, but also I like the PL schedule for the rivalries. Most of them go WAY back and they're comforting; it's "our" brand of football. If we're playing Holy Cross or Colgate or whomever I almost never consider the other team's record. I enjoy the game simply because it's Holy Cross or Colgate or whomever.

as do i. it's our little 'family' so to speak, for better or worse. i wish we had a lehigh/lafayette type rivalry though! maybe in a 100 years holy cross will hate us enough. :)

[Lehigh'98]

you're putting words and thoughts into my posts that don't exist, between facts that do. a no, no.

the PL is a 1 bid league that usually places it's conference champ and that's it. even in the few years it gets an at-large as well, it rarely places a team past the 1st round with only a few advancing to the 2nd. only 2 teams have made it past the 2nd round in over 15 years, including lehigh's one and done squad from 2011 and unfortunate shafting in 2012. now maybe saying doormat was a tad hyberbolic, but it's not like the PL is blazing the history books with championship glory... or any championship for that matter.

i like the PL. i like the member schools, and i think it's a good place for fordham football. but that doesn't change the fact that the best part of our schedule in recent years has been the OOC. one of the best aspects of the PL having few members is the opportunities in OOC scheduling. anyone that thinks we belong in another conference, like the CAA, is fooling themselves into thinking we can sustain success longer than we can hold a great coach.

i enjoyed the army game this year thoroughly, not just because it was FBS, but because i could actually watch it on my couch with real announcers, DVR it, etc. a 'real' football experience... at least from the perspective of the couch. i was more excited for 'nova than any other game on our PL schedule. that's not because army or 'nova are awesome, it's because PL teams rarely are, and this year is the poster child for that sentiment. not 1 team, other than fordham, with a winning record. that's not bragging about the rams, it's a statement about the league, which i think we all hope is heading in the right direction... finally.

We could definitely use a year where there are 4-5 powerful teams winning most of their OOC games. I think that is what most expect with scholarships and are unpleasantly suprised the league seems to be trending either flat or down as a whole.

[DFW HOYA]

Pards have won three national titles . . . xrolleyesx :p xnodx

...thanks to Parke Davis.

"Parke Davis was a college football historian who retroactively selected mythical national champions (MNC) for every season through 1933...Davis played at Princeton, then coached at Wisconsin, Amherst, and Lafayette in the 19th century. He remained in Easton, Pennsylvania (where Lafayette is located) the rest of his life."

http://www.tiptop25.com/parkedavis.html

[LeopardBall10]

...thanks to Parke Davis.

"Parke Davis was a college football historian who retroactively selected mythical national champions (MNC) for every season through 1933...Davis played at Princeton, then coached at Wisconsin, Amherst, and Lafayette in the 19th century. He remained in Easton, Pennsylvania (where Lafayette is located) the rest of his life."

http://www.tiptop25.com/parkedavis.html

That is awesome! Been a Leopard fan for years now and always wondered about those championships and how they were selected being that the CFB Playoffs were still almost a century from being a thing. I appreciate the history lesson DFW, and I'm not going to stop claiming those titles.

[RichH2]

That is awesome! Been a Leopard fan for years now and always wondered about those championships and how they were selected being that the CFB Playoffs were still almost a century from being a thing. I appreciate the history lesson DFW, and I'm not going to stop claiming those titles.

:) No reason not to claim them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...thanks to Parke Davis.

"Parke Davis was a college football historian who retroactively selected mythical national champions (MNC) for every season through 1933...Davis played at Princeton, then coached at Wisconsin, Amherst, and Lafayette in the 19th century. He remained in Easton, Pennsylvania (where Lafayette is located) the rest of his life."

http://www.tiptop25.com/parkedavis.html

Contrary perhaps to popular belief, these are not my words.

[Fordham]

Funny 2ram - your sentiments regarding the conference schedule is exactly how most of us PLers felt about playing Fordham these past 20+ years. Outside of FU's recent success (and I'd argue that even here FU underperformed/underachieved), FU has been irrelevant.

I find it somewhat galling that some FU fans have adopted an arrogant attidtude towards the PL as if the PL might be beneath Fordham from a competitive football standpoint. You guys have been playing with a built in advantage for the past 4 years (as well as some unique circumstances that extended that advantage i.e. Pickups of great local talent from Hofstra when they disbanded football as well as the plus 1 addition of an FBS QB when Moorhead joined) which we are even now seeing get marginalized.

In general I like playing Fordham, but find the recent tone to be a bit much.

such an absurd post. Every PL thread has fans of every squad bemoaning how bad the conference is and how disappointing it is that scholarship football has not generated the results they expected. Somehow when one Fordham fan expresses the same exact thing you call it 'galling' and 'arrogant'. Please try being consistent and getting on your moral high horse EVERY time you see a PL fan post about how bad the conference is and we can then all prepare for those being your only contributions.

Further, how could you ever write that you feel that way "about playing Fordham for these past 20+ years" when in the last 13 of them we have won 3 titles to your 2 and had 4 playoff appearances to your 3? We have been as competitive as any PL program for more than a decade now. You're clearly referencing the time before 2001 when were abysmal but it just goes to show that it's you who still has the arrogance of a 1990's Lehigh program. Welcome to 2015, where we have been a competitive program, including the last few where we have been the elite program, and there is zero chance that you or any other PL fan living in the present could ever seriously write what you wrote about your view of the last "20 years" of our program.

Finally, if you somehow foolishly think that the story of Coach Moorhead and this year's squad is that the rest of the league has caught up to us now that they all have scholarships too and we can no longer rely on Hofstra transfers and Nebrich, you clearly don't follow details but only headlines. We returned 3 starters on each side of the ball and are playing a TON of freshmen and sophomores. The story of this season for Fordham fans is how outrageously remarkable it is that we would ever be 7 - 2 at this point with our 2 losses being a 7 pointer to then top 5 'Nova where we could have tied it in the last few minutes of the game as well as a failed 2pt conversion away from tying 'Gate in the other when almost every player on our squad played their first college football snaps this year. That type of re-loading is absurdely, goofy good recruiting and coaching and to marginalize it the way you did with even more condescension for Moorhead is laughable.

With the exception of rambacker and a few hoops fans on our boards who don't really follow football but who hate the PL for what they feel it did to our basketball program, you'll find incredible support for the PL on our boards and even more so in our (non board) fan base. That said, 'yes', it sure would be helpful if the competitiveness of the league went up and the national perception of the league were to improve. A rising tide lifts all boats. I can't believe I had the gall to express that as a Fordham fan and thus risking another post from you reminding us of our proper place. Hope someone from a program that is less 'uppity' can perhaps express that on Fordham fans' behalves so it might get through to Hawker.

Completely foolish post and, ironically, completely arrogant as well.

[Go...gate]

Happy to have Fordham in the PL. We're 21-6 vs the Rams historically, games in the Bronx are 45 minutes away. What's not to like?

I'm happy to have Fordham (and Georgetown, too) - have family and friends that went to both schools going back to the 1920's - but I do get a little tired of the implication that we are not a good conference. And I hasten to add that the implication does not only come from a minority of Fordham fans - some HC fans also feel that way and some Ivies seem to think we "abandoned our mission" because we decided call a spade a spade and admit that we give financial aid to qualified athletes (just like the Ivies) but we call them what they are - scholarships.

The PL, unlike a lot of leagues, has grown and evolved. We're not perfect, but we have come a long way.

[Go...gate]

such an absurd post. Every PL thread has fans of every squad bemoaning how bad the conference is and how disappointing it is that scholarship football has not generated the results they expected. Somehow when one Fordham fan expresses the same exact thing you call it 'galling' and 'arrogant'. Please try being consistent and getting on your moral high horse EVERY time you see a PL fan post about how bad the conference is and we can then all prepare for those being your only contributions.

Further, how could you ever write that you feel that way "about playing Fordham for these past 20+ years" when in the last 13 of them we have won 3 titles to your 2 and had 4 playoff appearances to your 3? We have been as competitive as any PL program for more than a decade now. You're clearly referencing the time before 2001 when were abysmal but it just goes to show that it's you who still has the arrogance of a 1990's Lehigh program. Welcome to 2015, where we have been a competitive program, including the last few where we have been the elite program, and there is zero chance that you or any other PL fan living in the present could ever seriously write what you wrote about your view of the last "20 years" of our program.

Finally, if you somehow foolishly think that the story of Coach Moorhead and this year's squad is that the rest of the league has caught up to us now that they all have scholarships too and we can no longer rely on Hofstra transfers and Nebrich, you clearly don't follow details but only headlines. We returned 3 starters on each side of the ball and are playing a TON of freshmen and sophomores. The story of this season for Fordham fans is how outrageously remarkable it is that we would ever be 7 - 2 at this point with our 2 losses being a 7 pointer to then top 5 'Nova where we could have tied it in the last few minutes of the game as well as a failed 2pt conversion away from tying 'Gate in the other when almost every player on our squad played their first college football snaps this year. That type of re-loading is absurdely, goofy good recruiting and coaching and to marginalize it the way you did with even more condescension for Moorhead is laughable.

With the exception of rambacker and a few hoops fans on our boards who don't really follow football but who hate the PL for what they feel it did to our basketball program, you'll find incredible support for the PL on our boards and even more so in our (non board) fan base. That said, 'yes', it sure would be helpful if the competitiveness of the league went up and the national perception of the league were to improve. A rising tide lifts all boats. That said, I can't believe I had the gall to express that as a Fordham fan and thus risking another post from you reminding us of our proper place. Hope someone from a program that is less 'uppity' can perhaps express that on Fordham fans' behalves so it might get through to Hawker.

Completely foolish post and, ironically, completely arrogant as well.

An excellent post and thanks for sharing it.

[Fordham]

An excellent post and thanks for sharing it.

Thanks go...gate. Love the PL!


Happy to have Fordham in the PL. We're 21-6 vs the Rams historically, games in the Bronx are 45 minutes away. What's not to like?
ha! if only we could have taken solace in a victory this past weekend but we don't even get that ...

[Lehigh'98]

such an absurd post. Every PL thread has fans of every squad bemoaning how bad the conference is and how disappointing it is that scholarship football has not generated the results they expected. Somehow when one Fordham fan expresses the same exact thing you call it 'galling' and 'arrogant'. Please try being consistent and getting on your moral high horse EVERY time you see a PL fan post about how bad the conference is and we can then all prepare for those being your only contributions.

Further, how could you ever write that you feel that way "about playing Fordham for these past 20+ years" when in the last 13 of them we have won 3 titles to your 2 and had 4 playoff appearances to your 3? We have been as competitive as any PL program for more than a decade now. You're clearly referencing the time before 2001 when were abysmal but it just goes to show that it's you who still has the arrogance of a 1990's Lehigh program. Welcome to 2015, where we have been a competitive program, including the last few where we have been the elite program, and there is zero chance that you or any other PL fan living in the present could ever seriously write what you wrote about your view of the last "20 years" of our program.

Finally, if you somehow foolishly think that the story of Coach Moorhead and this year's squad is that the rest of the league has caught up to us now that they all have scholarships too and we can no longer rely on Hofstra transfers and Nebrich, you clearly don't follow details but only headlines. We returned 3 starters on each side of the ball and are playing a TON of freshmen and sophomores. The story of this season for Fordham fans is how outrageously remarkable it is that we would ever be 7 - 2 at this point with our 2 losses being a 7 pointer to then top 5 'Nova where we could have tied it in the last few minutes of the game as well as a failed 2pt conversion away from tying 'Gate in the other when almost every player on our squad played their first college football snaps this year. That type of re-loading is absurdely, goofy good recruiting and coaching and to marginalize it the way you did with even more condescension for Moorhead is laughable.

With the exception of rambacker and a few hoops fans on our boards who don't really follow football but who hate the PL for what they feel it did to our basketball program, you'll find incredible support for the PL on our boards and even more so in our (non board) fan base. That said, 'yes', it sure would be helpful if the competitiveness of the league went up and the national perception of the league were to improve. A rising tide lifts all boats. That said, I can't believe I had the gall to express that as a Fordham fan and thus risking another post from you reminding us of our proper place. Hope someone from a program that is less 'uppity' can perhaps express that on Fordham fans' behalves so it might get through to Hawker.

Completely foolish post and, ironically, completely arrogant as well.

The 90's was a great decade :)

[aceinthehole]

...thanks to Parke Davis.

"Parke Davis was a college football historian who retroactively selected mythical national champions (MNC) for every season through 1933...Davis played at Princeton, then coached at Wisconsin, Amherst, and Lafayette in the 19th century. He remained in Easton, Pennsylvania (where Lafayette is located) the rest of his life."

http://www.tiptop25.com/parkedavis.html

So this is where the Ivy bias began ... :D

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

such an absurd post. Every PL thread has fans of every squad bemoaning how bad the conference is and how disappointing it is that scholarship football has not generated the results they expected. Somehow when one Fordham fan expresses the same exact thing you call it 'galling' and 'arrogant'. Please try being consistent and getting on your moral high horse EVERY time you see a PL fan post about how bad the conference is and we can then all prepare for those being your only contributions.

Further, how could you ever write that you feel that way "about playing Fordham for these past 20+ years" when in the last 13 of them we have won 3 titles to your 2 and had 4 playoff appearances to your 3? We have been as competitive as any PL program for more than a decade now. You're clearly referencing the time before 2001 when were abysmal but it just goes to show that it's you who still has the arrogance of a 1990's Lehigh program. Welcome to 2015, where we have been a competitive program, including the last few where we have been the elite program, and there is zero chance that you or any other PL fan living in the present could ever seriously write what you wrote about your view of the last "20 years" of our program


Lehigh actually has 4 PL titles over the last 13 years, '04, '06, '10 and '11.

Fordham has been a solid program since Clawson turned it around in the early 2000's. Their win over A10 Champion Northeastern and hard fought loss to a really good 'Nova team was their best play performance. I still think those teams were as good, if not better, than the recent additions.

The PL teams have a history of running into the champion or finalist quite often. Most of Lehigh's playoff losses have been on the road against ridiculously good teams. I think 6 out of their 8 playoff losses have been against either the eventual national champ or runner-up. Fordham has had to deal with road ventures against the best of the best the last two years.

As good as Fordham has been the last two years they haven't really elevated the league or "taken" the next step. Hopefully they can continue to improve or someone else is able to raise the bar. The league needs to be able to produce another semifinalist to be taken seriously nationally.

[Bill]

The PL, unlike a lot of leagues, has grown and evolved. We're not perfect, but we have come a long way.

Yes, we have!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21651&stc=1

[Fordham]

The 90's was a great decade :)

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21652&stc=1

[Sader87]

The PL killed HC football....sorry, but true.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Lehigh actually has 4 PL titles over the last 13 years, '04, '06, '10 and '11.

As good as Fordham has been the last two years they haven't really elevated the league or "taken" the next step. Hopefully they can continue to improve or someone else is able to raise the bar. The league needs to be able to produce another semifinalist to be taken seriously nationally.

Losing by 3 TD's in the round of 16, which they did twice in a row, is certainly not taking the "next step". Winning two FBS games in the last three years is solid though, and hopefully their noted improvement with scholarships will be seen in the rest of the league starting next year.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The PL teams have a history of running into the champion or finalist quite often. Most of Lehigh's playoff losses have been on the road against ridiculously good teams. I think 6 out of their 8 playoff losses have been against either the eventual national champ or runner-up. Fordham has had to deal with road ventures against the best of the best the last two years.



Same goes for almost every PL champ the past 10-15 years. For most of that time, the CAA has been the top FCS conference (now 2nd to the MVFC) and due to regional matchups, our champ almost always faces one of the top two in the CAA in the round of 16.

[Go...gate]

The PL killed HC football....sorry, but true.

Let's face it, Reverend Brooks killed HC football.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Losing by 3 TD's in the round of 16, which they did twice in a row, is certainly not taking the "next step". Winning two FBS games in the last three years is solid though, and hopefully their noted improvement with scholarships will be seen in the rest of the league starting next year.

I agree. Their two FBS wins and Chase Edmonds winning the Rice Award has been their biggest accomplishments outside of the PL imo. If they get in this year it will be interesting to see how they fair....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The PL killed HC football....sorry, but true.

Actually it was that 1945 loss to Temple. HC entered that game ranked #10 in the country. After falling to Temple the Crusaders proceeded to go into a 5+ year coma that lasted until the early 50's.

It also cost Holy Cross a chance to replace U of Chicago in the Big 10 for the 1946 season. Or so I've heard from a toll booth worker named Willy....

[crusader11]

The PL killed HC football....sorry, but true.

Hey man, if you post this again, we'll start to believe you.

[PAllen]

Actually it was that 1945 loss to Temple. HC entered that game ranked #10 in the country. After falling to Temple the Crusaders proceeded to go into a 5+ year coma that lasted until the early 50's.

It also cost Holy Cross a chance to replace U of Chicago in the Big 10 for the 1946 season. Or so I've heard from a toll booth worker named Willy....

Yeah, forget the Big East, they coulda been in the B1G.

[DFW HOYA]

Let's face it, Reverend Brooks killed HC football.

Ah, that classic quote from Rev. John Brooks, S.J.: "We set a model that others would follow. So far, no one has followed."

[centraljerseycat]

I just don't see Nova, Richmond or William & Mary joining the Patriot because of the Academic Index and inability to redshirt. I certainly can see more non-conference games between CAA and Patriot though. They may have a better chance to get Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall to move up.

[carney2]

Looking desperately for that "beating a dead horse" emoticon. Just stop the madness. The Patriot brain trust will do something incredibly stupid (think NEC). Doing absolutely nothing is THE best alternative at the moment. End of story.

[Franks Tanks]

I just don't see Nova, Richmond or William & Mary joining the Patriot because of the Academic Index and inability to redshirt. I certainly can see more non-conference games between CAA and Patriot though. They may have a better chance to get Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall to move up.

Gettysburg was in the same athletic "league" in the old ECAC as the PA PL schools back in the day. They could've easily followed along with us and joined the PL, but they of course decided on D-III. They would've been a great PL member, but that ship has sailed and sunk. Quite a few D-III schools such as Hopkins would be awesome, but I don't think a D-III school in the Northeast will move to D-I. As Carney said we are stuck, but that is ok. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.

[LUHawker]

As Carney said we are stuck, but that is ok. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.

Agreed and wish the League would have followed this advice before adding American and Loyola. I'm ok with BU, but the others are a bridge too far.

[RichH2]

Agreed and wish the League would have followed this advice before adding American and Loyola. I'm ok with BU, but the others are a bridge too far.
Loyola and Boston were added to expand lacrosse and Bball . The ongoing tug o'war between athletics a.d academics in the PL. Sports won those.

[UNHWildcat18]

Can someone create a thread called General PL blabber? This thread is so pointless and like many have said beating a dead horse. The patriot league could have a week with one game between bucknell and the college of faith and the old crusty fans would still come out of the wood work making it 13 pages long by game day containing the words bucknell easy, Villanova could join PL if they wanted and some ridiculous little tid bid fact about Lehigh and Lafayette. They would also still take over their usual 3 threads a week.

FIN

[Gater]

If you're looking for facts and focus, you might want to try this thread:

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?148314-Lafayette-at-New-Hampshire

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can someone create a thread called General PL blabber? This thread is so pointless and like many have said beating a dead horse. The patriot league could have a week with one game between bucknell and the college of faith and the old crusty fans would still come out of the wood work making it 13 pages long by game day containing the words bucknell easy, Villanova could join PL if they wanted and some ridiculous little tid bid fact about Lehigh and Lafayette. They would also still take over their usual 3 threads a week.

Hey, did you know on this day in 1950, Lehigh beat Muhlenberg 42-13 on their way to an undefeated season? Furthermore, the Mules' points were the final ones scored on the Engineers that season.

[Bill]

UNH...come on, you should know by now. We PL alumni and fans take great pride in (in no particular order):

1. Over analyzing everything
2. Dealing with our Ivy league inferiority complex
3. High self esteem in regards to academic selectivity
4. Living in the past
5. Using detailed descriptions and big vocabulary words to convey concepts and ideas where 1-2 sentences would have sufficed
6. Living vicariously through the athletic efforts of 18-22 year old men
7. Speculating about...well, everything!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21661&stc=1

AGS would be a very boring place to visit without usxnodx

[Lehigh'98]

Can someone create a thread called General PL blabber? This thread is so pointless and like many have said beating a dead horse. The patriot league could have a week with one game between bucknell and the college of faith and the old crusty fans would still come out of the wood work making it 13 pages long by game day containing the words bucknell easy, Villanova could join PL if they wanted and some ridiculous little tid bid fact about Lehigh and Lafayette. They would also still take over their usual 3 threads a week.

FIN

Doesn't UNH have a big playoff game against Lafayette they should be focusing on?

[eiu1999]

xsmashxxsmashxxsmashxxsmashxxsmashxxsmashxxsmashxx smashxxsmashxxsmashxxsmashx

[RichH2]

UNH...come on, you should know by now. We PL alumni and fans take great pride in (in no particular order):

1. Over analyzing everything
2. Dealing with our Ivy league inferiority complex
3. High self esteem in regards to academic selectivity
4. Living in the past
5. Using detailed descriptions and big vocabulary words to convey concepts and ideas where 1-2 sentences would have sufficed
6. Living vicariously through the athletic efforts of 18-22 year old men
7. Speculating about...well, everything!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21661&stc=1

AGS would be a very boring place to visit without usxnodx
PRICELESS !:)

[carney2]

Can someone create a thread called General PL blabber? This thread is so pointless and like many have said beating a dead horse. The patriot league could have a week with one game between bucknell and the college of faith and the old crusty fans would still come out of the wood work making it 13 pages long by game day containing the words bucknell easy, Villanova could join PL if they wanted and some ridiculous little tid bid fact about Lehigh and Lafayette. They would also still take over their usual 3 threads a week.

FIN

Patriot League graduates: The Curse of Literacy.

[Southsider]

Looking desperately for that "beating a dead horse" emoticon. Just stop the madness. The Patriot brain trust will do something incredibly stupid (think NEC). Doing absolutely nothing is THE best alternative at the moment. End of story.

This one works xbangxxbangx

[Go...gate]

Agreed and wish the League would have followed this advice before adding American and Loyola. I'm ok with BU, but the others are a bridge too far.

IMO, AU and BU were all right because they were committed to bringing their institutional profile in line with the PL (BU, from an academic standpoint, was already there). Loyola was a big step down for the PL, while for Loyola it was a triumph - like marrying way up.

- - - Updated - - -


Patriot League graduates: The Curse of Literacy.

Indeed.

[CHIP72]

Doesn't UNH have a big playoff game against Lafayette they should be focusing on?

I think they're at halftime, or at some other designated break in the action at the moment.

[Gater]

I think they're at halftime, or at some other designated break in the action at the moment.

A friend of mine is at the game. He said, "They pushed kickoff back another six hours to talk about UNH joining the Patriot League and then got distracted debating whether Holy Cross should have joined the Big East." The crowd has spent the almost two years of waiting being entertained by a dance routine from Lafayette supporter KillaBee entitled, "Bet the House."

[RichH2]

A friend of mine is at the game. He said, "They pushed kickoff back another six hours to talk about UNH joining the Patriot League and then got distracted debating whether Holy Cross should have joined the Big East." The crowd has spent the almost two years of waiting being entertained by a dance routine from Lafayette supporter KillaBee entitled, "Bet the House."
:):)And they say PL guys cant stay on topic. Poppycock,we merely have a broad definition of it
#The curse of literacy :)

[LeopardBall10]

:):)And they say PL guys cant stay on topic. Poppycock,we merely have a broad definition of it
#The curse of literacy :)
I often wonder if every PL president doesn't mutter the same thing to themselves when some overzealous, over-educated alum comes in and demands this, that, and the other.

btw, I am officially stealing that hashtag.

[RichH2]

I often wonder if every PL president doesn't mutter the same thing to themselves when some overzealous, over-educated alum comes in and demands this, that, and the other.

btw, I am officially stealing that hashtag.
It's OK,I stole it from from carney :)

[ngineer]

UNH...come on, you should know by now. We PL alumni and fans take great pride in (in no particular order):

1. Over analyzing everything
2. Dealing with our Ivy league inferiority complex
3. High self esteem in regards to academic selectivity
4. Living in the past
5. Using detailed descriptions and big vocabulary words to convey concepts and ideas where 1-2 sentences would have sufficed
6. Living vicariously through the athletic efforts of 18-22 year old men
7. Speculating about...well, everything!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21661&stc=1

AGS would be a very boring place to visit without usxnodx

Aye, Aye! +1

[Go...gate]

UNH...come on, you should know by now. We PL alumni and fans take great pride in (in no particular order):

1. Over analyzing everything
2. Dealing with our Ivy league inferiority complex
3. High self esteem in regards to academic selectivity
4. Living in the past
5. Using detailed descriptions and big vocabulary words to convey concepts and ideas where 1-2 sentences would have sufficed
6. Living vicariously through the athletic efforts of 18-22 year old men
7. Speculating about...well, everything!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21661&stc=1

AGS would be a very boring place to visit without usxnodx

+ 2

[RichH2]

Bill has summed us up perfectly. There is no topic so miniscule that we cant devote at least 10 pages to it,nor so serious that we cant segue into debating the comparative assets of Katy Perry and Kate Upton.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://i65.tinypic.com/f9i2py.jpg

[CHIP72]

Aye, Aye! +1


+ 2

=3

For the record, I did not attend a Patriot League school.

[UNHWildcat18]

=3

For the record, I did not attend a Patriot League school.

Lol +1

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://i65.tinypic.com/f9i2py.jpg


Pretty sure the "Fudge Report" is a Frank Tavani fanzine

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I thought the article was good. It wasn't about expansion per se, it was more of an exploration of the challenges of PL scheduling, and on that note it hits everything pretty much on the head.

Having said that, LB10 is correct in that when it comes to expansion, the candidates don't change much.

Personally my favorite solution is BU and Loyola restarting football. Nine football schools, 8 conference/3 OOC games, and nothing to mess up the other sports. If you start looking at adding all-sports members, they almost have to come in as a pair to make 12 teams, like Monmouth/Bryant, Marist/SFPA, or something like that. And that's before the inevitable snootiness battle about how all of these candidates shouldn't be actively considered "because we're more dignified than that" or some other asinine argument.

Bumping up this blast from the past.

[centraljerseycat]

The best viable options for Patriot League expansion are to be found in D2 not other FCS programs. Villanova, Richmond & William & Mary aren't interested in the PL and the PL isn't interested in Monmouth/Sacred Heart/Robert Morris etc. Johns Hopkins, Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall are the best fits but unfortunately have never shown any interest in moving up.

[Pard4Life]

There is a higher probability of the PL dissolving than adding another member or BU/Loyola starting football.

[mainejeff]

There is a higher probability of the PL dissolving than adding another member or BU/Loyola starting football.

Is there any chance that the Patriot would accept Maine and UNH for all sports if it meant shoring up the football side of the equation?

[Bill]

After seeing what has happened to the league, and all that has taken place in the past 25 years....I would sign for that in a heartbeat.

Is it realistic? I honestly have no clue there.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Is there any chance that the Patriot would accept Maine and UNH for all sports if it meant shoring up the football side of the equation?

I'd love it! The PL desperately needs some new voices at the table. Maine and New Hampshire are the perfect type of institutions (quality, public, flagship) to upset the apple cart a bit! With that said, I do not see it as a realistic development as things presently stand to make it come to fruition. It would take some seismic changes at this point for this arrangement to be discussed again. I say that with the pretense there were "known talks" between the PL and UNH at one point. The extent or value of that talk (or talks) will likely never be known by any of us on here....

[caribbeanhen]

Why does the CAA need to be destroyed just because Monmouth and Hampton are getting in?

[DFW HOYA]

I'd love it! The PL desperately needs some new voices at the table. Maine and New Hampshire are the perfect type of institutions (quality, public, flagship) to upset the apple cart a bit! With that said, I do not see it a realistic development as thing presently stand to make it come to fruition. It would take some seismic changes at this point for this arrangement to be discussed again. I say that with the pretense there were "known talks" between the PL and UNH at one point. The extent or value of that talk (or talks) will likely never be known by any of us on here....

The PL's search committee:

https://golf.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/video_imagesdukes_690.jpg

[caribbeanhen]

The PL's search committee:

https://golf.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/video_imagesdukes_690.jpg

lol I get this one

the old one dollar bet

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is there any chance that the Patriot would accept Maine and UNH for all sports if it meant shoring up the football side of the equation?

Maine and UNH would be terrific additions to the PL in all sports. But the PL isn't even an possible destination for them in football until the PL allows for redshirting and lift their arbitrary roster caps. I think, fundamentally, that's what the PL Presidents don't seem to understand as a group.

If I'm the PL I'd also want to think about how that shores up hockey and lacrosse. The Patriot League doesn't sponsor hockey, but they have some schools that sponsor it and if they got enough schools interested...

[crusader11]

The PL won't compete nationally and won't be a viable conference for CAA-type schools until three things happen:

1) Get rid of the AI
2) Allow red-shirts
3) Increase scholarships to 63

If the following three things happen, the PL would quickly become a multi-bid conference.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The best viable options for Patriot League expansion are to be found in D2 not other FCS programs. Villanova, Richmond & William & Mary aren't interested in the PL and the PL isn't interested in Monmouth/Sacred Heart/Robert Morris etc. Johns Hopkins, Gettysburg and Franklin & Marshall are the best fits but unfortunately have never shown any interest in moving up.

**DIII => which is why it's even less likely. A few of the best "fits" for the Patriot League would be Johns Hopkins, RIT, or Union College. Even if any of these guys wanted to move up, they'd need the "St. Thomas exemption". Otherwise they'd need to get invited to a D2 conference first, spend a minimum # of years in D2, then move up.

Patriot League expansion is about as pointless a discussion as Puerto Rico state-hood. There's no willingness to think outside the box when it comes to TPTB in Lehigh Valley. The same archaic mentality that formed the league persists now. I would've loved to have seen Monmouth get the invite at 8-10 years ago when they inquired. Or Duquesne, Sacred Heart, Bryant or Merrimack now.

It will take someone abruptly leaving for the Patriot League to invite a Marist or Dayton out of desperation as a football affiliate.

Absolutely worthless topic. You know its the offseason when this god-awful thread gets revived.

[Gater]

I think more important than going to 63 scholarships or getting rid of the AI would be to allow roster sizes commensurate with the Ivies.

Yale has 125 players on its roster.
Colgate has 89.

36 additional players is a huge difference--especially when the Ivies are tuition-free for many lower and middle class families.

Colgate is tuition free if your family makes less than 80k. Would Colgate be better off being non-scholarship with 36 additional players on the roster when so many kids can go to school for free?

At the very least, Georgetown should be allowed to choose between the PL roster limit and 63 scholarships or the FCS roster limit and no scholarships. Hard not to imagine Georgetown with 125 players getting good (or at least better...), fast.

[Southsider]

I think more important than going to 63 scholarships or getting rid of the AI would be to allow roster sizes commensurate with the Ivies.

Yale has 125 players on its roster.
Colgate has 89.

36 additional players is a huge difference--especially when the Ivies are tuition-free for many lower and middle class families.

Colgate is tuition free if your family makes less than 80k. Would Colgate be better off being non-scholarship with 36 additional players on the roster when so many kids can go to school for free?

At the very least, Georgetown should be allowed to choose between the PL roster limit and 63 scholarships or the FCS roster limit and no scholarships. Hard not to imagine Georgetown with 125 players getting good (or at least better...), fast.

Simple answer, YES! LU & Gate have proven that in years past.

[DFW HOYA]

At the very least, Georgetown should be allowed to choose between the PL roster limit and 63 scholarships or the FCS roster limit and no scholarships. Hard not to imagine Georgetown with 125 players getting good (or at least better...), fast.

The PL has never made an accommodation to Georgetown on AI/admissions, so it's unlikely they would carve out roster limits as a competitive incentive.

[Franks Tanks]

Simple answer, YES! LU & Gate have proven that in years past.

A long time ago, prior to the NEC offering scholarships. Check the geographic distribution of PL rosters, we all have to cast nets far and wide outside of the northeast. 20 years ago our rosters were mostly kids within a 6-7 hour drive from campus, now PL players are from everywhere.
Is a kid from Texas still coming to Bucknell on a 60% ride???

And you get back into the old debate of only targeting “poor” and “rich” kids. Those that get basically a full ride due to income, and the select few where money is no object. It works for Yale, because they are freaking Yale, and many will do just about anything to be admitted.

[Doc QB]

Simple answer, YES! LU & Gate have proven that in years past.

Wasnt need based aid, more players on roster available, same as today with 'learning' to recruit with scholarships BS, etc.
It was because of better coaching staffs then. Better talent evaluation, recruiting, player development, game planning, and that talent (coach and player) executing on game day.
I dont see guys on the Colgate or LU roster that will be multi-year starters, multi-year all-PL, difference makers.
And I certainly dont see coaches who are up and comers like years past, maybe Chesney aside.
If you think otherwise, you're just wrong.

[Franks Tanks]

Wasnt need based aid, more players on roster available, same as today with 'learning' to recruit with scholarships BS, etc.
It was because of better coaching staffs then. Better talent evaluation, recruiting, player development, game planning, and that talent (coach and player) executing on game day.
I dont see guys on the Colgate or LU roster that will be multi-year starters, multi-year all-PL, difference makers.
And I certainly dont see coaches who are up and comers like years past, maybe Chesney aside.
If you think otherwise, you're just wrong.

How many times did we hear player x really wanted to go to league school y, but the money just didn’t work. He’s taking a full ride to Maine or Towson or Monmouth. Now it’s our roster is small, we lost to Sacred Heart because we don’t have 3 extra scholarships etc. The Patriot League is not the easiest place to win, no debate there, but coaching has been crap for a long time at several places around the league. I do think Lafayette upgraded tremendously. I think Chechinni is very good and am surprised he hadn’t made more headway in Bison land. Colgate didn’t necessarily need fixing, just on a down cycle, and I think Stan will continue the tradition there. The biggest head scratcher continues to be that Gilmore remains employed, and was ever hired at all!

[MR. CHICKEN]

I think more important than going to 63 scholarships or getting rid of the AI would be to allow roster sizes commensurate with the Ivies.

Yale has 125 players on its roster.
Colgate has 89.

36 additional players is a huge difference--especially when the Ivies are tuition-free for many lower and middle class families.

Colgate is tuition free if your family makes less than 80k. Would Colgate be better off being non-scholarship with 36 additional players on the roster when so many kids can go to school for free?

At the very least, Georgetown should be allowed to choose between the PL roster limit and 63 scholarships or the FCS roster limit and no scholarships. Hard not to imagine Georgetown with 125 players getting good (or at least better...), fast.

....IFIN' DAT'S TRUE......80-90....WILL HEAD TA PORTAL SOON.....MAC BROWN N. CAROLINA HEAD COACH...SAYS NOWADAYS.....YA GOTTA PLAY 22 ON EACH SIDE UH DUH ROCK.......OR THEY HEAD TA PORTAL....MAYBEAH....SOME STAR ACTRESS IS PAYIN' TA HAVE WIMPY SON....GET HIS PIC TAKEN....IN UH ELI UNI.....AWK!

[Gater]

I am very pro scholarship. I just remember Dunlap saying capping roster size will hurt as much as scholarships help. Merrimack has 110 guys. Villanova has 90. Villanova doesn't have the AI and allows redshirting and is highly competitive and similar to PL schools in many ways. If PL dropped the AI or allow redshirting, I can see people getting upset that football is compromising a respective university academically (not arguing the merits of this). Increasing roster size is a sneaky way to be more competitive. Basically the rule is, do whatever the Ivies are doing to stay a step ahead of the PL. They have so many kids on scholarship or kids coming from families with the money that value an Ivy degree above all else that they can get really good players without looking like they are compromising themselves academically. They end up with 125 kids not worrying about the cost of college. That's 35 additional chances to find a few starters every year. Give PL schools the option to go to 125 man rosters. Teams will get better fast.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Wasnt need based aid, more players on roster available, same as today with 'learning' to recruit with scholarships BS, etc.
It was because of better coaching staffs then. Better talent evaluation, recruiting, player development, game planning, and that talent (coach and player) executing on game day.
I dont see guys on the Colgate or LU roster that will be multi-year starters, multi-year all-PL, difference makers.
And I certainly dont see coaches who are up and comers like years past, maybe Chesney aside.
If you think otherwise, you're just wrong.

.....PELL GRANTS......TA TUBBY'S DISDAIN.....USED TA HATE WHEN LEHIGH BEAT HIM.....AN' SPORTS PAGE SAID NON SKOLLY HAWKS........BRAWK!

[MR. CHICKEN]

I am very pro scholarship. I just remember Dunlap saying capping roster size will hurt as much as scholarships help. Merrimack has 110 guys. Villanova has 90. Villanova doesn't have the AI and allows redshirting and is highly competitive and similar to PL schools in many ways. If PL dropped the AI or allow redshirting, I can see people getting upset that football is compromising a respective university academically (not arguing the merits of this). Increasing roster size is a sneaky way to be more competitive. Basically the rule is, do whatever the Ivies are doing to stay a step ahead of the PL. They have so many kids on scholarship or kids coming from families with the money that value an Ivy degree above all else that they can get really good players without looking like they are compromising themselves academically. They end up with 125 kids not worrying about the cost of college. That's 35 additional chances to find a few starters every year. Give PL schools the option to go to 125 man rosters. Teams will get better fast.

....MORE ON ROSTER = MORE IN PORTAL.....AWK!

[Gater]

Guys in the portal who are starting or not starting? Most of the Colgate guys leaving are looking for grad degrees that Colgate doesn't offer. 35 more guys on the roster would take away the sting a bit more.
More players=More players.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Guys in the portal who are starting or not starting? Most of the Colgate guys leaving are looking for grad degrees that Colgate doesn't offer. 35 more guys on the roster would take away the sting a bit more.
More players=More players.

....MORE PLAYERS = MORE UNHAPPY PLAYERS..........AWK!

[Gater]

What Would Mr. Chicken Do if his Hens had rooster limits, an academic index, and no redshirting? Think you’d add some beaks if you could.

[MR. CHICKEN]

What Would Mr. Chicken Do if his Hens had rooster limits, an academic index, and no redshirting? Think you’d add some beaks if you could.

....ROSTER LIMITS NO PROB...OWNLAH CARRY TWO THREE STRINGS.......ACADEMIC INDEX....LESS PLAYERS....LESS SMART GUYS.......DELAWARE WAS REAL GOOD BACK IN DAY.....EVEN..... WHEN UD....HAD UH NO FRESHMEN POLICY.....AWK!

[dbackjon]

And then there is this...

"A model that treats student-athletes as employees is not one we want," Patriot League Commissioner Jen Heppel said.

https://406mtsports.com/college/ncaa-ratifies-new-constitution-paving-way-to-restructuring-college-athletics/article_336985cd-8c2b-5f94-91a1-e932106af3bf.html

[Franks Tanks]

Guys in the portal who are starting or not starting? Most of the Colgate guys leaving are looking for grad degrees that Colgate doesn't offer. 35 more guys on the roster would take away the sting a bit more.
More players=More players.

A few considerations.

1.) Are schools prepared to dedicate more admissions spots to football players? A potentially contentious issue, especially at the smaller schools in the league.

2.) If not you need kids to be admitted without the help of football admission slots, which is no easy task. Many of these kids are also looking at NECSAC schools, Hopkins, F&M etc. where they may actually play.

3.) Can they actually play and afford school? These kids have other options. And the high quality D3 schools can be very attractive as well. If the young man realizes he’s never seeing the field, many will simply quit the team

You’re pretty much looking for unicorns here. Kids that can actually contribute, pay their way and get in without using an admission slot.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can (and probably will) do a post purely on the state of PL recruiting at some point this offseason, but here's the Cliffs notes.

1. Doc's point is sound. Good PL coaches have figured out how to recruit in the PL whatever onerous rules there have been in the past. It can sound like excuses at times. Chesney has made a powerhouse out of Holy Cross. He's transformed the culture, found his athletes, has won playoff games, and took Villanova to the limit. It can be done.

2. The specific situation, however, that allowed (say) Lehigh to become world-beaters in the late 1990s and Colgate in the 2000s does not exist anymore. It is not as easy as "turn back the clock to the policies of (the 1990s, the 1950s, the 1890s) and suddenly Lehigh will be a powerhouse again!" Merely going back to "non-scholarship" and abolishing roster limits will not solve much league-wide.

3. Recruiting in 1990 compared to recruiting today is like comparing the Mesozoic era to the Industrial Revolution. Never mind obvious things like the Portal - Rivals and Twitter have revolutionized recruiting and made every school national, basically. More importantly, though, the recruit-rich Lehigh Valley used to have tons of hidden gems completely overlooked by most of college football, especially in tiny Valley HS. Now every FCS, MAC school, and P5 and G5 school has feelers in the Lehigh Valley, and some of those stars that could have been superstars at Lehigh or Lafayette now go to Rutgers, Villanova, UNH, Delaware, Kent State, try to walk-on at Penn State. Not that this is an excuse for bad recruiting, but the idea that a Lehigh assistant coach can out-hustle Twitter to get access to some kid at Pius X simply isn't going to happen anymore. The recruits know they are wanted, they know of Kent State, where they play, and who they play. Like it or not, that's the competition.

4. Yale can get 125 football players on their roster because "they're freaking Yale" and most football-able recruits at Yale are also correctly able to assess the risk vs. reward of a Yale education and walking on at Kent State. If they already have their Yale degree, however.... all bets are off. Can Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate do that? Maybe, to some degree, but not like Yale. Can Lafayette and Holy Cross do that without a grad school?

[Gater]

Bryant has 125 on their roster and they aren't Yale. Would imagine having a giant freshmen football class would give you a chance to find some gems. Guys will quit if they aren't playing, but you will have a bigger pool of athletes to find those starters. Thomas Ives came in as a 1% scholarship guy at Colgate and played on the Bears practice squad for two years. A number of the guys on the 2018 team came in as non-scholarship guys.

Here is a list of Colgate's highest ranked recruits on 247: https://247sports.com/college/colgate/Sport/Football/AllTimeRecruits/

Some of these guys went on to have solid or even great careers but a lot did not. Your odds of having a better team improve if you have more players joining the team as freshmen especially when the most recruited guys don't pan out.

AI and Redshirting make it harder on PL schools than other schools--doesn't feel like those are going away. Expanding the roster would help. It isn't perfect but perfect will never be the goal of the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

Additional thoughts:

1. Good PL coaches have figured out how to recruit in the PL whatever onerous rules there have been in the past...except for Georgetown. The PL structure is a literal firewall to success for this program. You could put Chesney in Washington and he doesn't win, either. You could probably put Kirby Smart there too and the same issue applies: if you can't recruit and admit talent, you don't win. Think of Army basketball as an example of same.

2. PL teams could win in regional (read=PA/NJ) recruiting in the absence of direct competition--the Yankee/A-10 Conference schools were seemingly somewhere else and the PL was a good landing spot for kids who wanted a (perceived) better competitive experience than in the Ivy. Not so anymore from the Ivy, and the lesser lights of mid-Atlantic football (Duquesne, Monmouth, even St. Francis) have worked the state in ways that the PL doesn't.

3. Roster sizes help but that doesn't address on the field performance. CAA and NEC schools are not fielding huge rosters, either.

4. Do grad transfers and 5th years help? On the margin, yes. That said, you're not seeing a lot of kids from Auburn or Purdue ending up to play at Bucknell.

As a brand, the PL lacks four key attributes: 1) competitiveness, 2) consistency, 3) leadership, and 4) an audience that associates with them.

[Go...gate]

Great to be back on AGS and to see this thread again. Have been out with some health issues and then some IT problems.

Would love to see the PL add one or more football members. Thought Monmouth might be a go but their move to the CAA is a home run for them.













9

[NY Crusader 2010]

Great to be back on AGS and to see this thread again. Have been out with some health issues and then some IT problems.

Would love to see the PL add one or more football members. Thought Monmouth might be a go but their move to the CAA is a home run for them.













9

That ship sailed when TPTB in Lehigh Valley looked down their noses at Monmouth and rejected their application for membership in 2012. Karma was real though, as the Hawks have gone something like 16-2 against the Patriot League since then.

[Go...gate]

That ship sailed when TPTB in Lehigh Valley looked down their noses at Monmouth and rejected their application for membership in 2012. Karma was real though, as the Hawks have gone something like 16-2 against the Patriot League since then.

Just as with Hofstra in the early-mid 1990s.

[WestCoastAggie]

Eh… the PL is running out of members to add if they ever wanted to until Johns Hopkins feels like they are a Division 1 program.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Eh… the PL is running out of members to add if they ever wanted to until Johns Hopkins feels like they are a Division 1 program.

Are the PL expansion candidates limited based on the current mindset? Or is simply time running out on the PL to exist in its current construction? You cannot stay this "strategically myopic" for 35-40 years and claim "success"....

[Go...gate]

Has Wagner College ever been considered for football?

Hopkins would be a WONDERFUL addition.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Eh… the PL is running out of members to add if they ever wanted to until Johns Hopkins feels like they are a Division 1 program.

Problem is that none of the schools that we would invite would ever want to join. And the current league presidents have no interest in adding any of the schools that would want to join. Bryant would be a great fit in football -- won't happen though.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Has Wagner College ever been considered for football?

Hopkins would be a WONDERFUL addition.

I could see Wagner and/or Marist being considered as emergency additions in football if 1 or 2 existing members left.

Hey, Wagner is 1-0 all-time against the Patriot League in the FCS playoffs....and had more postseason wins than Holy Cross until 2021.

[Southsider]

PL Football is a train wreck. Probably unsalvageable at this point. Hell, with a bit more success why would Holy Cross stay???

[DFW HOYA]

Hell, with a bit more success why would Holy Cross stay???

Short of being an independent, where else would they land? If the CAA isn't interested, it's not like HC is climbing down to the NEC or the Big South.

[Franks Tanks]

PL Football is a train wreck. Probably unsalvageable at this point. Hell, with a bit more success why would Holy Cross stay???

Cross is having a good run right now, mostly due to the ineptitude of the rest of the league. They still lost to Merrimack and got smoked by Harvard. They aren’t nearly as dominant as the Moorhead Fordham teams or several of the runs put together by Lehigh and Colgate over the years. Also, yes where are they going. Basketball continues to me mediocre and they are an all sports league member, and can’t just leave for football.

[Franks Tanks]

Problem is that none of the schools that we would invite would ever want to join. And the current league presidents have no interest in adding any of the schools that would want to join. Bryant would be a great fit in football -- won't happen though.

Agree, the league simply does not need another “just because” member. If someone pulls out and the league needs to scramble to back fill these would be good options, otherwise what’s the point?

The league is also incredibly stable. This will be 20 years since the Hoya’s joined. How many leagues can go 20 years without anyone leaving?

[UNHWildcat18]

Agree, the league simply does not need another “just because” member. If someone pulls out and the league needs to scramble to back fill these would be good options, otherwise what’s the point?

The league is also incredibly stable. This will be 20 years since the Hoya’s joined. How many leagues can go 20 years without anyone leaving?

I'm surprised Georgetown still sponsors football. Surprised they don't just ditch football and put the money into their other sports.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm surprised Georgetown still sponsors football. Surprised they don't just ditch football and put the money into their other sports.

Georgetown was playing football when Ulysses Grant was President, or when UNH was an A&M college in Hanover.

Putting money into other sports isn't the issue.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's been more than 25 years and the issue with the PL is that it's still not entirely sure what it wants to be. They want to be a academically-focused conference like the Ivy League - that's certain. They want athletics and academics tied together - for sure. But after that, where do they want to be in the pantheon of FCS?

Do they want to be the sister conference of the Ivy League - the IL's convenient out-of-conference competition? Not much money in that, and the Ivy League schools are becoming superyachts to the Patriot League's party barges. Can the PL's keep rubbing elbows with this rich crowd without some sort of revenue? To be clear, they do right now - for now.

Do they want to actually compete for NCAA titles in football and other sports? The rest of the NCAA has moved on in a bunch of areas without the PL. Not saying it's all good (most of it is terrible) but the fact is the NCAA has enacted rules that make it harder to compete for titles if you want to run a clean program tied to academics. It costs money to run modern athletics departments, and if you want things like FBS games and runs in the FCS Playoffs and a shot at the NCAA Tournament you need to exist in that framework to run your program.

Or do they want to continue to inhabit this weird purgatory they're in right now - not-quite the Ivy League but not really actually competing for NCAA Championships either? This purgatory makes it hard to get new all-sport members - the folks who want NCAA Championships don't want the rules that make it impossible to compete for national championships, and the Ivy League aspirants don't feel the need to join the PL to associate with the IL because it's not quite the IL.

Note that this isn't just a football question but an all-sports question. Football is only one aspect of it. There are arenas where the Patriot League is better suited to compete nationally (ex. lacrosse). But what I mentioned really applies to all sports, and even in lacrosse one has to wonder if Loyola and Navy in the long run can continue to compete with deep-pocketed competition like UNC and the ACC schools.

[UNHWildcat18]

Georgetown was playing football when Ulysses Grant was President, or when UNH was an A&M college in Hanover.

Putting money into other sports isn't the issue.

yes you started football 19 years before UNH did in 1893. I hate being a jerk but if it’s so historical why doesn’t the alumni base or school really seem to care? It’s been 34 years since they won a conference championship, no playoffs, last bowl game was 1950. The lack of support has just always baffled me.

[Go Green]

How many leagues can go 20 years without anyone leaving?

The Ivy is not impressed with a mere twenty years of stability.

:)

[NY Crusader 2010]

Agree, the league simply does not need another “just because” member. If someone pulls out and the league needs to scramble to back fill these would be good options, otherwise what’s the point?

The league is also incredibly stable. This will be 20 years since the Hoya’s joined. How many leagues can go 20 years without anyone leaving?

You're absolutely correct. The league is incredibly stable and has been fine. But as we learned when Fordham almost departed in football ten years ago, we don't have much of a buffer zone when it comes to the auto-bid. Minimum 6 members needed and we're at 7.

I wouldn't entertain any new all-sports members (we're at 10 now) unless the school sponsored football. I would absolutely bring in Bryant as a football affiliate if the America East / Big South rumors are correct.

Has the league ever had a "just because" member? Towson in football maybe?

[Doc QB]

It's been more than 25 years and the issue with the PL is that it's still not entirely sure what it wants to be. They want to be a academically-focused conference like the Ivy League - that's certain. They want athletics and academics tied together - for sure. But after that, where do they want to be in the pantheon of FCS?

Do they want to be the sister conference of the Ivy League - the IL's convenient out-of-conference competition? Not much money in that, and the Ivy League schools are becoming superyachts to the Patriot League's party barges. Can the PL's keep rubbing elbows with this rich crowd without some sort of revenue? To be clear, they do right now - for now.

Do they want to actually compete for NCAA titles in football and other sports? The rest of the NCAA has moved on in a bunch of areas without the PL. Not saying it's all good (most of it is terrible) but the fact is the NCAA has enacted rules that make it harder to compete for titles if you want to run a clean program tied to academics. It costs money to run modern athletics departments, and if you want things like FBS games and runs in the FCS Playoffs and a shot at the NCAA Tournament you need to exist in that framework to run your program.

Or do they want to continue to inhabit this weird purgatory they're in right now - not-quite the Ivy League but not really actually competing for NCAA Championships either? This purgatory makes it hard to get new all-sport members - the folks who want NCAA Championships don't want the rules that make it impossible to compete for national championships, and the Ivy League aspirants don't feel the need to join the PL to associate with the IL because it's not quite the IL.

Note that this isn't just a football question but an all-sports question. Football is only one aspect of it. There are arenas where the Patriot League is better suited to compete nationally (ex. lacrosse). But what I mentioned really applies to all sports, and even in lacrosse one has to wonder if Loyola and Navy in the long run can continue to compete with deep-pocketed competition like UNC and the ACC schools.

Much of this is indeed true, its a league-wide issue regarding goals for is programs, and the desire or ability to put resources/cash into them. Hoops hasnt been terribly successful nor entertaining for some time. Given time and stagnation, as seen in football, the same will be true of lacrosse, as the PL will fall behind any headway its made against the Ivy in Lacrosse, and with said stagnation, the Big10 will continue to improve and the ACC continue to be far ahead. So, you'll have another sport with no chance of meaningful national competitiveness and certainly not a NCAA tourney run. Having Loyola and Navy is great, but those two can potentially fade as well, and PL lacrosse will become an also-ran as well.

Personally, I would temper current enthusiasm toward Holy Cross and its head coach as analogous to the 66-5-1 Duffner years, or even Lehigh's run around 2000. PL football is awful, with mediocre coaching at all levels, and Cross winning this weak league is not all that impressive. Nor have then done it for a lengthy period just yet. But, they do appear to be investing while the rest of the league stands pat. A new indoor facility at this level is obviously awesome, and they must be putting some cash into coaching salaries to get better assistants and keep Chesney, but its to early to permanently put the PL football trophy in the new football building just yet. And does their investment and interest have some limits on the surface...its not like they were mentioned for CAA expansion for football or otherwise. So, were they not looking, or CAA having no interest? What does that mean if anything?

Keeping up with the Ivy League is ludicrous. They have to much cash and cache. That will never change. Keeping up with the CAA given our restrictions (let alone pedestrian coaching talent) impossible. Isnt it telling we are never looked to as expansion candidates elsewhere? Is it because other leagues understand our philosophy regarding certain academic and athletic issues? Or are we just that undesirable to even be considered? The CAA not looking at Fordham or HC or any PL school to me is interesting. Are we that much an outlier?

[UNHWildcat18]

You're absolutely correct. The league is incredibly stable and has been fine. But as we learned when Fordham almost departed in football ten years ago, we don't have much of a buffer zone when it comes to the auto-bid. Minimum 6 members needed and we're at 7.

I wouldn't entertain any new all-sports members (we're at 10 now) unless the school sponsored football. I would absolutely bring in Bryant as a football affiliate if the America East / Big South rumors are correct.

Has the league ever had a "just because" member? Towson in football maybe?

yeah you guys really messed up not inviting Monmouth for football back when they moved to the MAAC. I don’t even think you could find a decent associate member for football if you wanted to anymore.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Much of this is indeed true, its a league-wide issue regarding goals for is programs, and the desire or ability to put resources/cash into them. Hoops hasnt been terribly successful nor entertaining for some time. Given time and stagnation, as seen in football, the same will be true of lacrosse, as the PL will fall behind any headway its made against the Ivy in Lacrosse, and with said stagnation, the Big10 will continue to improve and the ACC continue to be far ahead. So, you'll have another sport with no chance of meaningful national competitiveness and certainly not a NCAA tourney run. Having Loyola and Navy is great, but those two can potentially fade as well, and PL lacrosse will become an also-ran as well.

Personally, I would temper current enthusiasm toward Holy Cross and its head coach as analogous to the 66-5-1 Duffner years, or even Lehigh's run around 2000. PL football is awful, with mediocre coaching at all levels, and Cross winning this weak league is not all that impressive. Nor have then done it for a lengthy period just yet. But, they do appear to be investing while the rest of the league stands pat. A new indoor facility at this level is obviously awesome, and they must be putting some cash into coaching salaries to get better assistants and keep Chesney, but its to early to permanently put the PL football trophy in the new football building just yet. And does their investment and interest have some limits on the surface...its not like they were mentioned for CAA expansion for football or otherwise. So, were they not looking, or CAA having no interest? What does that mean if anything?

Keeping up with the Ivy League is ludicrous. They have to much cash and cache. That will never change. Keeping up with the CAA given our restrictions (let alone pedestrian coaching talent) impossible. Isnt it telling we are never looked to as expansion candidates elsewhere? Is it because other leagues understand our philosophy regarding certain academic and athletic issues? Or are we just that undesirable to even be considered? The CAA not looking at Fordham or HC or any PL school to me is interesting. Are we that much an outlier?

Obviously Fordham is in the A-10 for all sports other than football but the fact that Holy Cross didn't even come up in any real CAA expansion discussion tells you all you need to know. And I don't think we would've been interested on our end. I think the core PL schools (HC, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell) are happy with each other and there just isn't another obvious school out there that fits perfectly within that mold, which is why the league has remained so static.

[Sader87]

^^^ As 2010 stated, HC and the other 4 original Colonial League schools seem to be pretty content with being in the PL in general. Some schools play in a different league for ice hockey, by that's pretty much the only outlier for notable sports played at those schools. "Patriot League" identity is basically where HC lies now. About 25% of HC students are on a varsity sport competing in the PL today...we aren't going anywhere.

As I've stated earlier, I hope PL football nevah expands. Love the fact that we have 5 (sometimes 6) OOC games every year.

[Go...gate]

^^^ As 2010 stated, HC and the other 4 original Colonial League schools seem to be pretty content with being in the PL in general. Some schools play in a different league for ice hockey, by that's pretty much the only outlier for notable sports played at those schools. "Patriot League" identity is basically where HC lies now. About 25% of HC students are on a varsity sport competing in the PL today...we aren't going anywhere.

As I've stated earlier, I hope PL football nevah expands. Love the fact that we have 5 (sometimes 6) OOC games every year.

Amen. And I don't think Fordham is leaving for CAA football any time soon.

That said, one more school in the regional footprint would be a boon. Why I suggested Wagner. Besides, unlike Bryant, our fans tend to behave themselves.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Amen. And I don't think Fordham is leaving for CAA football any time soon.

That said, one more school in the regional footprint would be a boon. Why I suggested Wagner. Besides, unlike Bryant, our fans tend to behave themselves.

Unless Fordham leaves A-10 to join the CAA for all sports, which they obviously won't, they'll be a PL football member for foreseeable future. If there's anything the CAA doesn't need, it's football affiliates. CAA now as 13 all-sports members and 14 football members. I think they're pretty set on all counts for a while.

[ngineer]

Much of this is indeed true, its a league-wide issue regarding goals for is programs, and the desire or ability to put resources/cash into them. Hoops hasnt been terribly successful nor entertaining for some time. Given time and stagnation, as seen in football, the same will be true of lacrosse, as the PL will fall behind any headway its made against the Ivy in Lacrosse, and with said stagnation, the Big10 will continue to improve and the ACC continue to be far ahead. So, you'll have another sport with no chance of meaningful national competitiveness and certainly not a NCAA tourney run. Having Loyola and Navy is great, but those two can potentially fade as well, and PL lacrosse will become an also-ran as well.

Personally, I would temper current enthusiasm toward Holy Cross and its head coach as analogous to the 66-5-1 Duffner years, or even Lehigh's run around 2000. PL football is awful, with mediocre coaching at all levels, and Cross winning this weak league is not all that impressive. Nor have then done it for a lengthy period just yet. But, they do appear to be investing while the rest of the league stands pat. A new indoor facility at this level is obviously awesome, and they must be putting some cash into coaching salaries to get better assistants and keep Chesney, but its to early to permanently put the PL football trophy in the new football building just yet. And does their investment and interest have some limits on the surface...its not like they were mentioned for CAA expansion for football or otherwise. So, were they not looking, or CAA having no interest? What does that mean if anything?

Keeping up with the Ivy League is ludicrous. They have to much cash and cache. That will never change. Keeping up with the CAA given our restrictions (let alone pedestrian coaching talent) impossible. Isnt it telling we are never looked to as expansion candidates elsewhere? Is it because other leagues understand our philosophy regarding certain academic and athletic issues? Or are we just that undesirable to even be considered? The CAA not looking at Fordham or HC or any PL school to me is interesting. Are we that much an outlier?

"Yes".

[NY Crusader 2010]

yeah you guys really messed up not inviting Monmouth for football back when they moved to the MAAC. I don’t even think you could find a decent associate member for football if you wanted to anymore.

I don't think the Patriot League has any interest in another football affiliate member right now. You need 6 football playing members to keep the AQ => we're at 7, so we'd be OK in the short term if either Georgetown or Fordham left or dropped football. We also have a bylaw that stipulates that in order to sponsor football the Patriot League must have at least 5 all-sports members competing in the sport. Right now, we're at 5. So if one of Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette or Bucknell left or dropped the sport, the league would need to either replace them with an all-sports member that had football OR get an existing conference member to start playing FCS football. The second of those options would involve either getting Loyola or American to start football, getting BU to revive it's football program, or Army and/or Navy dropping to FCS....soooo not very likely. Of the core football-playing group in the league, I would say Holy Cross is the most likely to ever leave...and that's not happening any time soon. So it could be that the Patriot League is just fine...until one day all of a sudden it's not. That's the only way I can describe the current setup.

[Kramden]

^^^ As 2010 stated, HC and the other 4 original Colonial League schools seem to be pretty content with being in the PL in general. Some schools play in a different league for ice hockey, by that's pretty much the only outlier for notable sports played at those schools. "Patriot League" identity is basically where HC lies now. About 25% of HC students are on a varsity sport competing in the PL today...we aren't going anywhere.

As I've stated earlier, I hope PL football nevah expands. Love the fact that we have 5 (sometimes 6) OOC games every year.


Well said, why add what would be an average team to the league and limit the teams from playing a more competitive OOC team? FCS playoffs will be for the conference champion only for the forseeable future anyway so I for one am in the camp of a smaller conference that allows the teams to play more FBS or top tier FCS teams. It's not like adding any of the schools mentioned will improve recruiting.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Well said, why add what would be an average team to the league and limit the teams from playing a more competitive OOC team? FCS playoffs will be for the conference champion only for the forseeable future anyway so I for one am in the camp of a smaller conference that allows the teams to play more FBS or top tier FCS teams. It's not like adding any of the schools mentioned will improve recruiting.

I hope you're wrong on this one. I'll gladly watch Holy Cross go 10-1 with the one loss to conference champ Colgate, Lehigh or Fordham next year, if it helps the league get 2 bids :)

[WestCoastAggie]

https://twitter.com/lfn/status/1506064851860348936

[Go...gate]

https://twitter.com/lfn/status/1506064851860348936

??????????????????????????

[WestCoastAggie]

??????????????????????????
I guess some want Howard as an expansion target?

[mainejeff]

The Patriot League is stuck with who they have. The CAA, America East, MAAC and NEC are going to be aggressive in retaining and expanding their membership in this round of conference realignment. The Patriot is on the outside looking in....and will have to remain happy in being Ivy-lite.

[DFW HOYA]

The Patriot League is stuck with who they have.

And those who they have are stuck, too.

[Southsider]

The Patriot League is stuck with who they have. The CAA, America East, MAAC and NEC are going to be aggressive in retaining and expanding their membership in this round of conference realignment. The Patriot is on the outside looking in....and will have to remain happy in being Ivy-lite.

It sickens me that it has come to this. I still blame Likens and his Ivy-Lite vision. LU FB would been better off as an Independent. Eventually they would have ended up in a much better place.

[Southsider]

The Patriot League is stuck with who they have. The CAA, America East, MAAC and NEC are going to be aggressive in retaining and expanding their membership in this round of conference realignment. The Patriot is on the outside looking in....and will have to remain happy in being Ivy-lite.<br>
<br>It sickens me that it has come to this. I still blame Likens and his Ivy-Lite vision.&nbsp; LU FB would been better off as an Independent. Eventually they would have ended up in a much better place.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Patriot League is stuck with who they have. The CAA, America East, MAAC and NEC are going to be aggressive in retaining and expanding their membership in this round of conference realignment. The Patriot is on the outside looking in....and will have to remain happy in being Ivy-lite.

That's a perfect description of the problem.

Four conferences are reading and reacting to what's happening around Division I. Two conferences aren't.

Of those two conferences, one is sitting on such an enormous pile of endowment money, it really doesn't matter much. The other one does not.

[Go...gate]

Is Marist still out of the question for Football?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Is Marist still out of the question for Football?

Hopefully! The last thing the Patriot League needs is another football program whose identity is based in competitive compromise. If the Patriot League wants to go the PFL, SWAC, MEAC route then just commit to it and end the playoff, "nationally relevant" charade.

[Go...gate]

Hopefully! The last thing the Patriot League needs is another football program whose identity is based in competitive compromise. If the Patriot League wants to go the PFL, SWAC, MEAC route then just commit to it and end the playoff, "nationally relevant" charade.

Here's hoping we can add one more solid football member that fits the league profile. IMO, Marist with 60 scholarships would be a good add.

[NY Crusader 2010]

What does Marist have in common with any current member of the Patriot League?

[Sader87]

The Patriot League is fine as is (without a few modifications...red-shirting, # of scholarships etc).....the other schools not named Holy Cross have to "up" their game.....

[DFW HOYA]

The Patriot League is fine as is (without a few modifications...red-shirting, # of scholarships etc).....the other schools not named Holy Cross have to "up" their game.....

The Patriot League will go defunct before it expands. And "up" is not in at least two schools' vocabulary.

[Go...gate]

What does Marist have in common with any current member of the Patriot League?


Selective, Northeast, largely liberal arts school.

[Go...gate]

The Patriot League will go defunct before it expands. And "up" is not in at least two schools' vocabulary.

You mean Bucknell and Georgetown?

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Patriot League is fine as is (without a few modifications...red-shirting, # of scholarships etc).....the other schools not named Holy Cross have to "up" their game.....

Wasn't that long ago that every school not named Colgate had to up their game. And before that every school not named Fordham. And before that every school not named Lehigh.

Wouldn't it be nice if HC, 'Gate, Fordham and Lehigh formed a core four that could compete with the best of FCS in the Northeast year in and year out? Maybe we can all work out a way to get good at the same time....

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

The Patriot League is stuck with who they have. The CAA, America East, MAAC and NEC are going to be aggressive in retaining and expanding their membership in this round of conference realignment. The Patriot is on the outside looking in....and will have to remain happy in being Ivy-lite.

The NEC won't retain anything. They will only expand in reaction to losing schools.

That is just the reality.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Selective, Northeast, largely liberal arts school.

The PL has evolved to the point there is no longer a common theme driving the bus which is the ultimate problem; especially on the football side (but bball, wrestling, hockey, lax all suffer due to the PL "arrangement"). Lehigh, Georgetown and Fordham are national universities that have "significant clout" in terms of brands and respect. However, in terms of actually moving the needle they'll never be the true "elites" of academia. Likewise, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross etc. have positioned themselves in a way that they will never have the gravitas the NESCAC institutions enjoy. So why not try to follow the Villanova, Richmond, Furman, Duke, Northwestern, Rice etc. model (of varying extents)? No one is buying the Ivy-lite nonsense in 2022 given how academia (especially in the Northeast) has changed since the "college boom" of the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s.

[Bill]

The PL has evolved to the point there is no longer a common theme driving the bus which is the ultimate problem; especially on the football side (but bball, wrestling, hockey, lax all suffer due to the PL "arrangement"). Lehigh, Georgetown and Fordham are national universities that have "significant clout" in terms of brands and respect. However, in terms of actually moving the needle they'll never be the true "elites" of academia. Likewise, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross etc. have positioned themselves in a way that they will never have the gravitas the NESCAC institutions enjoy. So why not try to follow the Villanova, Richmond, Furman, Duke, Northwestern, Rice etc. model (of varying extents)? No one is buying the Ivy-lite nonsense in 2022 given how academia (especially in the Northeast) has changed since the "college boom" of the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s.

I have to disagree on one thing there - Georgetown is totally in the true elite class...I'm sure DFW will fall off his chair when he reads thatxdrunkyx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I have to disagree on one thing there - Georgetown is totally in the true elite class...I'm sure DFW will fall off his chair when he reads thatxdrunkyx

While I agree in the context of rankings, Georgetown will be a second class citizen to Notre Dame for at least another 2-3 generations imo. How much really separates Georgetown, Boston College and Villanova at this point? From an undergrad/athletics perspective? Grad/Law school Georgetown still rules....

[DFW HOYA]

While I agree in the context of rankings, Georgetown will be a second class citizen to Notre Dame for at least another 2-3 generations imo. How much really separates Georgetown, Boston College and Villanova at this point? From an undergrad/athletics perspective? Grad/Law school Georgetown still rules....

Not sure I buy the "second class citizen to Notre Dame", outside endowment. ND got a 20 year head start on fundraising and its endowment is roughly 8x of Georgetown. As such, Georgetown could raise $3 billion in endowment and still be $5B short to ND--that's the time value of money.

Admissions wise, there's not much overlap. They don't compete in many areas on the undergraduate level (ND excels in engineering, Georgetown doesn't have it; Georgetown excels in international affairs, ND doesn't, etc.) while on the graduate level ND doesn't have a medical program and Georgetown Law is T-14 and Notre Dame is T-25.

The more interesting race is #3, where Villanova is making inroads on Boston College. By all rights, Villanova shouldn't be in the conversation given its lack of research and graduate programs, but branding is a great momentum builder.

[Go...gate]

The PL has evolved to the point there is no longer a common theme driving the bus which is the ultimate problem; especially on the football side (but bball, wrestling, hockey, lax all suffer due to the PL "arrangement"). Lehigh, Georgetown and Fordham are national universities that have "significant clout" in terms of brands and respect. However, in terms of actually moving the needle they'll never be the true "elites" of academia. Likewise, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross etc. have positioned themselves in a way that they will never have the gravitas the NESCAC institutions enjoy. So why not try to follow the Villanova, Richmond, Furman, Duke, Northwestern, Rice etc. model (of varying extents)? No one is buying the Ivy-lite nonsense in 2022 given how academia (especially in the Northeast) has changed since the "college boom" of the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s.

I believe you are overstating things a trifle.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I believe you are overstating things a trifle.

Even within the NESCAC there's a pecking order. Bucknell and Lafayette are excellent liberal arts schools but there's not much that separates them from F&M, Dickinson and schools of that ilk as opposed to Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, Bates, Pomona, Washington & Lee. The latter are the real "movers and shakers"; that's the "cool kids" club. Colgate is a step closer without question imo. They continue to pull in great freshman classes and the tuition break initiative was an actual start (not a bunch of BS) to cultivate a more encompassing student body. Lafayette has been poorly managed for years. It's a very good school but its leadership has, for lack of a better word, sucked. That is an area Colgate has excelled! Bucknell is a quirky, bit conservative institution in the middle of PA. Over time I have become more intrigued with how it operates/thinks.

I am considering renewing my Seven Oaks membership given its improvements! Love what is going on in Hamilton!

I simply do not see a viable PL addition that brings the entire package. And by "entire package" someone who is willing to play along but also has the influence to establish some positive athletic changes. Delaware, UNH, Maine, W&M, Villanova, Richmond have that capacity imo.

[DFW HOYA]

I simply do not see a viable PL addition that brings the entire package. And by "entire package" someone who is willing to play along but also has the influence to establish some positive athletic changes. Delaware, UNH, Maine, W&M, Villanova, Richmond have that capacity imo.

A different approach:

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-case-for-patriot-football-conference.html

[UNHWildcat18]

A different approach:

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-case-for-patriot-football-conference.html

I decent piece but he lost me at the end. Even if the PL corrected its issues it would not be the "MVFC" of the east. PL isn't crawling out of its hole anytime soon.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The A-10 / CAA from roughly 1998-2012 was the "MVFC of the East". And even the current CAA is not getting back to that level anytime soon.

[NY Crusader 2010]

A different approach:

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-case-for-patriot-football-conference.html

I'm sure you know what you talking about as does the author here when you often mention how Georgetown's high SAT range handcuffs the school relative to other PL schools when it comes to the size of available recruiting pool.

My question is this: given that the Ivy League also uses the AI, how come that reduced recruiting pool isn't also hurting Princeton, Yale, Harvard and Dartmouth -- even Columbia? I'm sure that all eight Ivy League schools have significantly higher SAT ranges than Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell.

I haven't looked it up but it wouldn't surprise me if Georgetown's SAT range is higher than Cornell, Brown and maybe Penn but certainly not higher than HYP.

[Sitting Bull]

I decent piece but he lost me at the end. Even if the PL corrected its issues it would not be the "MVFC" of the east. PL isn't crawling out of its hole anytime soon.

On the article’s references to CAA football, it still boggles my mind on how people are stuck on “Northeast” as somehow that implies a compact conference. Particularly when W&M and Richmond are tossed in and Elon or NC A&T are used as examples of some far distant locations.

First off, the CAA is structured as Mid Atlantic, that’s the “region” It’s not “northern” and it’s not “southern”. Geographically, it’s a more compact version of the ACC.

Secondly, if you use Philadelphia as your epicenter, which is about where the CAA would plot it’s center, Elon and NC A&T are closer than Orono ME.

And third, why does the writer somehow feel Villanova would be misplaced in competition with Elon? They are both ranked among the top 80 national universities in US News latest rankings and their similarities I think closer than say UNH or UAlbany. I would bet you have more prospective students that are mutually applying for acceptance among those two than Villanova and UNH as example and the distance is irrelevant.

[Lehigh'98]

I'm sure you know what you talking about as does the author here when you often mention how Georgetown's high SAT range handcuffs the school relative to other PL schools when it comes to the size of available recruiting pool.

My question is this: given that the Ivy League also uses the AI, how come that reduced recruiting pool isn't also hurting Princeton, Yale, Harvard and Dartmouth -- even Columbia? I'm sure that all eight Ivy League schools have significantly higher SAT ranges than Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell.

I haven't looked it up but it wouldn't surprise me if Georgetown's SAT range is higher than Cornell, Brown and maybe Penn but certainly not higher than HYP.

I think the Ivy AI allows for them to hit an average score across all sports student athletes. So, potentially, football could have lower scores if that is offset by some higher scores in other sports. Not 100% on this, but that's how it was explained to me by someone at Princeton.

[ngineer]

I think Johns Hopkins would be an excellent add to the PL. They are already D-1 in lacrosse and have been a national power for years in that sport. While they are a D-3 school for football, they play a pretty good brand of football and it wouldn't take much for them to do what is necessary to step into FCS level. They have the academic 'cache' that the League requires, and would give Georgetown a natural local rival. I expect this has been explored on various levels over the years amongst regional AD's and that for whatever reason, there has been a stumbling block.

[Bill]

I think Johns Hopkins would be an excellent add to the PL. They are already D-1 in lacrosse and have been a national power for years in that sport. While they are a D-3 school for football, they play a pretty good brand of football and it wouldn't take much for them to do what is necessary to step into FCS level. They have the academic 'cache' that the League requires, and would give Georgetown a natural local rival. I expect this has been explored on various levels over the years amongst regional AD's and that for whatever reason, there has been a stumbling block.

Engineer, I believe the simplest answer is "what's in it for them"? JHU already has an incredible academic reputation, and the noted DI lax success. However, other than lax, they are not spending a great deal on athletics. Football wouldn't be the only sport to have to move up to DI, the other 20 sports would have to join them...JHU facilities are good in most cases for D3, but they are not for D1. There would be a massive investment in facilities needed, in addition to having to enlarge staffs, increase pay - and by the way, fund all those scholarships that are now coming from tuition paying students.
What's worse, NO athletic department at our FCS level reports a profit...I would think a board of trustees would have a time rationalizing a tens of millions of dollars investment with zero financial gain.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not sure I buy the "second class citizen to Notre Dame", outside endowment. ND got a 20 year head start on fundraising and its endowment is roughly 8x of Georgetown. As such, Georgetown could raise $3 billion in endowment and still be $5B short to ND--that's the time value of money.

Admissions wise, there's not much overlap. They don't compete in many areas on the undergraduate level (ND excels in engineering, Georgetown doesn't have it; Georgetown excels in international affairs, ND doesn't, etc.) while on the graduate level ND doesn't have a medical program and Georgetown Law is T-14 and Notre Dame is T-25.

The more interesting race is #3, where Villanova is making inroads on Boston College. By all rights, Villanova shouldn't be in the conversation given its lack of research and graduate programs, but branding is a great momentum builder.

I think this post really puts a lot into perspective. It is in our nature to try to "rank" and group the schools in some way (Catholic, Jesuit, public private) but when it comes to schools, especially in the top endowment schools, it becomes more about individual programs. Like, Penn's business school might be the top school in the country, but Columbia has a world-class med school, etc. As DFW said Notre Dame excels at some things and Georgetown excels at others, depending on your field of study.

The real question is where education fits in the new "college" sports world. It is changing fast.

[Go...gate]

I have to disagree on one thing there - Georgetown is totally in the true elite class...I'm sure DFW will fall off his chair when he reads thatxdrunkyx

Agreed.

[Go...gate]

Even within the NESCAC there's a pecking order. Bucknell and Lafayette are excellent liberal arts schools but there's not much that separates them from F&M, Dickinson and schools of that ilk as opposed to Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, Bates, Pomona, Washington & Lee. The latter are the real "movers and shakers"; that's the "cool kids" club. Colgate is a step closer without question imo. They continue to pull in great freshman classes and the tuition break initiative was an actual start (not a bunch of BS) to cultivate a more encompassing student body. Lafayette has been poorly managed for years. It's a very good school but its leadership has, for lack of a better word, sucked. That is an area Colgate has excelled! Bucknell is a quirky, bit conservative institution in the middle of PA. Over time I have become more intrigued with how it operates/thinks.

I am considering renewing my Seven Oaks membership given its improvements! Love what is going on in Hamilton!

I simply do not see a viable PL addition that brings the entire package. And by "entire package" someone who is willing to play along but also has the influence to establish some positive athletic changes. Delaware, UNH, Maine, W&M, Villanova, Richmond have that capacity imo.

UD is an intriguing thought. Nicely in the geographic footprint.

Seven Oaks has definitely improved. Beautiful new Clubhouse now as well!

[Go...gate]

I think Johns Hopkins would be an excellent add to the PL. They are already D-1 in lacrosse and have been a national power for years in that sport. While they are a D-3 school for football, they play a pretty good brand of football and it wouldn't take much for them to do what is necessary to step into FCS level. They have the academic 'cache' that the League requires, and would give Georgetown a natural local rival. I expect this has been explored on various levels over the years amongst regional AD's and that for whatever reason, there has been a stumbling block.

Yes.

[Doc QB]

Engineer, I believe the simplest answer is "what's in it for them"? JHU already has an incredible academic reputation, and the noted DI lax success. However, other than lax, they are not spending a great deal on athletics. Football wouldn't be the only sport to have to move up to DI, the other 20 sports would have to join them...JHU facilities are good in most cases for D3, but they are not for D1. There would be a massive investment in facilities needed, in addition to having to enlarge staffs, increase pay - and by the way, fund all those scholarships that are now coming from tuition paying students.
What's worse, NO athletic department at our FCS level reports a profit...I would think a board of trustees would have a time rationalizing a tens of millions of dollars investment with zero financial gain.

Bill is spot on. I played at LU and transferred to JHU over almost three decades ago. Still connected to both (i.e. dontate). Today, Hopkins has weight room, coaches offices/video rooms/conf rooms, locker room, training room, stadium that fits. On par with LC and LU, better than Bucknell, have seen each in person. So they fit facility wise. Lax has their own stuff (building) and is separate. Always has been.

But, they are quite happy where they are. In Div III, most sports are super successful, and they see no need to put a huge investment of cash (that doesnt exist anyway) to move up. Lax joined Big10 and it has not been a successful move, caused coaching change amongst other things. So the flagship sport struggling in a new position will certainly not help any existing reluctance to change addresses for all other sports. Could they do well with the $3-6 million football commitment (schollies, staff, admin, facility, travel, etc) the rest of the league makes, sure, they would do well, and I would love to see it. If they just jumped to PL and stayed need based aid like now, through FAFSA form like every other student, a modest $500K or less football budget, you would have another Georgetown. It is not what the league (nor Hopkins) needs.

[DFW HOYA]

If they just jumped to PL and stayed need based aid like now, through FAFSA form like every other student, a modest $500K or less football budget, you would have another Georgetown. It is not what the league (nor Hopkins) needs.

It's not what Georgetown needs either, but here we are.

If the PL had to do it all over again, do they pass on Georgetown and try to keep Towson in the fold?

[KPSUL]

Could someone summarize here? Do any of the 226 posts in this thread correlate with potential, likely or actual Patriot League football expansion?

[downbythebeach]

What about Catholic U?

[aceinthehole]

What about Catholic U?

If they weren't D-III, I would have been pushing hard to add them to the NEC.

[aceinthehole]

If they weren't D-III, I would have been pushing hard to add them to the NEC.

In an ideal world, the NEC wouldn't have added Merrimack and Stonehill, and instead added Catholic, Howard, Delaware State, and Morgan State.

North:
CCSU, SHU, LIU, SFNY, Wagner, and FDU

South:
SFU, Mount, Catholic, Howard, Delaware St., Morgan St.

Even better would be to drop SFNY and keep Bryant.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Bill is spot on. I played at LU and transferred to JHU over almost three decades ago. Still connected to both (i.e. dontate). Today, Hopkins has weight room, coaches offices/video rooms/conf rooms, locker room, training room, stadium that fits. On par with LC and LU, better than Bucknell, have seen each in person. So they fit facility wise. Lax has their own stuff (building) and is separate. Always has been.

But, they are quite happy where they are. In Div III, most sports are super successful, and they see no need to put a huge investment of cash (that doesnt exist anyway) to move up. Lax joined Big10 and it has not been a successful move, caused coaching change amongst other things. So the flagship sport struggling in a new position will certainly not help any existing reluctance to change addresses for all other sports. Could they do well with the $3-6 million football commitment (schollies, staff, admin, facility, travel, etc) the rest of the league makes, sure, they would do well, and I would love to see it. If they just jumped to PL and stayed need based aid like now, through FAFSA form like every other student, a modest $500K or less football budget, you would have another Georgetown. It is not what the league (nor Hopkins) needs.

I agree Doc! I sent Bill some rep points yesterday! Both of you nailed JHU's currently and almost assuredly future position......

[NY Crusader 2010]

It's not what Georgetown needs either, but here we are.

If the PL had to do it all over again, do they pass on Georgetown and try to keep Towson in the fold?

No. IIRC, Georgetown was added before Towson left. There were a couple years of overlap. Towson was in the PL as a football affiliate only while they were in the America East for other sports. When they were invited to the CAA in 2002, along with Delaware, Northeastern, Hofstra and Drexel, football moved to the Atlantic 10.

Towson being in the PL was a temporary marriage of convenience.

[Sader87]

Catholic U was briefly D1 in hoop only I believe in the 1970s....not sure of the whole story on the jump up and subsequent jump back down to D3.

[aceinthehole]

Catholic U was briefly D1 in hoop only I believe in the 1970s....not sure of the whole story on the jump up and subsequent jump back down to D3.

Yep. Catholic was D-I from 1976-77 through the 1980-81 season. Played last 2 years in ECAC-South (predecessor of the CAA).

[DFW HOYA]

Yep. Catholic was D-I from 1976-77 through the 1980-81 season. Played last 2 years in ECAC-South (predecessor of the CAA).


Catholic University and the University of Baltimore both played in the ECAC-South during that time.

Catholic would not spend money on basketball (according to the Washington Post, its entire athletic budget was $80,000) and its gymnasium was a World War I relic it could not afford to upgrade. Baltimore was in even worse shape and dropped all its sports after leaving the ECAC-South.

Catholic has wandered through Division III ever since, with some success (a national D-III basketball title under Mike Lonergan in 2001) but no sustained support. Since there are no D-III teams in DC outside Gallaudet, they get lost in the local shuffle amidst Maryland, Georgetown, Howard, GW, American, George Mason, and even UDC.

[Fordham]

I'm sure you know what you talking about as does the author here when you often mention how Georgetown's high SAT range handcuffs the school relative to other PL schools when it comes to the size of available recruiting pool.

My question is this: given that the Ivy League also uses the AI, how come that reduced recruiting pool isn't also hurting Princeton, Yale, Harvard and Dartmouth -- even Columbia? I'm sure that all eight Ivy League schools have significantly higher SAT ranges than Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell.

I haven't looked it up but it wouldn't surprise me if Georgetown's SAT range is higher than Cornell, Brown and maybe Penn but certainly not higher than HYP.

Someone like DFW or LFN may know this better but I thought that originally, the AI was put in with the goal that an incoming player at an Ivy school was within range of the average accepted student at that school. Early on that meant a competitive advantage for the lower academic schools and it helps explain why the 80's, 90's and maybe early 2000's saw alot of Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn teams at or near the top of the rankings. They then went to a league-wide AI and it flipped the script so that the higher ranked schools now held an advantage and it's why you see H-Y-P almost always now either winning or sharing the title. That's how it was explained to me at least. Curious if those in the know can confirm?

A similar thing happened in the PL which helps explain how Dave Clawson was able to finally turn things around for us back in the early 2000's as he was the first to really exploit that advantage. I believe the PL followed suit sometime around when we implemented scholarships but not sure where things stand now exactly.

I think G-town is an outlier v the Ivy as it relates to the AI since they're the only school not able to give $$ the same way other PL schools can. There's no equivalent for that in the Ivies imo. I think there's a bunch of kids who can be offered by Fordham, HC, Bucknell et al that can't get into G-town, so that pares the market down a bit assuming my take on the AI makes that statement true. Then, those kids who can get into G-town will now have to go through whatever their financial aid gets them v a scholarship to play at a lower ranked PL school. Those are two huge disadvantages out of the gate. Makes it all the more remarkable how competitive Sgarlata got them these past few years.

_________________________

Btw, @Lehigh fans - didn't want to start a separate thread on here but was very curious on why the mascot name change took place from Engineers to Mountain Hawks? I know I'm way late in asking this but was curious if it represents less of a focus on Engineering or something else? Thought of how much I enjoyed the Engineer as it was so unique and very cool in its own way imo; while I find Mountain Hawks to just be 'meh'

[Doc QB]

Btw, @Lehigh fans - didn't want to start a separate thread on here but was very curious on why the mascot name change took place from Engineers to Mountain Hawks? I know I'm way late in asking this but was curious if it represents less of a focus on Engineering or something else? Thought of how much I enjoyed the Engineer as it was so unique and very cool in its own way imo; while I find Mountain Hawks to just be 'meh'

What I saw first hand in early 90's several women's basketball players were unhappy with Engineers, good friends and drinking buddies with our teammates and several fraternity brothers of mine. They were fairly vocal about it and were involved in the charge with a growing group of like minded female undergrads. That was circa '91-93, and the change came after that time or around it. That was many years and many beers ago.

It was stated the opponents to 'Engineers' wanted a nickname potentially less attributable to the premiere academic program at the time, the College of Engineering. LU wasnt coed until around 1970 (and AGS's Engineer can help me on that), and sent many engineering graduates to great careers and through the now defunct but at the time prosperous Bethlehem Steel. Also, a new name to be more reflective of a broader offering of majors and career paths. Some, including my gal buddies mentioned above, just thought it just to masculine.

Which is funny, because almost half of them were lesbians. Not that there is anything wrong with that (que Seinfeld bass riff).

And we're all still friends after 30 years.

[Bill]

What I saw first hand in early 90's several women's basketball players were unhappy with Engineers, good friends and drinking buddies with our teammates and several fraternity brothers of mine. They were fairly vocal about it and were involved in the charge with a growing group of like minded female undergrads. That was circa '91-93, and the change came after that time or around it. That was many years and many beers ago.

It was stated the opponents to 'Engineers' wanted a nickname potentially less attributable to the premiere academic program at the time, the College of Engineering. LU wasnt coed until around 1970 (and AGS's Engineer can help me on that), and sent many engineering graduates to great careers and through the now defunct but at the time prosperous Bethlehem Steel. Also, a new name to be more reflective of a broader offering of majors and career paths. Some, including my gal buddies mentioned above, just thought it just to masculine.

Which is funny, because almost half of them were lesbians. Not that there is anything wrong with that (que Seinfeld bass riff).

And we're all still friends after 30 years.

Doc, I concur. And can't stop laughing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What I saw first hand in early 90's several women's basketball players were unhappy with Engineers, good friends and drinking buddies with our teammates and several fraternity brothers of mine. They were fairly vocal about it and were involved in the charge with a growing group of like minded female undergrads. That was circa '91-93, and the change came after that time or around it. That was many years and many beers ago.

It was stated the opponents to 'Engineers' wanted a nickname potentially less attributable to the premiere academic program at the time, the College of Engineering. LU wasnt coed until around 1970 (and AGS's Engineer can help me on that), and sent many engineering graduates to great careers and through the now defunct but at the time prosperous Bethlehem Steel. Also, a new name to be more reflective of a broader offering of majors and career paths. Some, including my gal buddies mentioned above, just thought it just to masculine.

Which is funny, because almost half of them were lesbians. Not that there is anything wrong with that (que Seinfeld bass riff).

And we're all still friends after 30 years.

Fun fact: For a brief period, about two or three years (I think) Lehigh was officially "the Brown and White" since the school hadn't settled on a mascot but there was pressure to dump Engineers. Of course nobody told opposing schools, cheering sections or even ESPN, so Lehigh was the "Engineers" for quite a while afterwards.

I'm of two minds about the nickname. One, I love the uniqueness of "Engineers" as a nickname and I miss that aspect. Nobody else had it! On the other Mountain Hawk does represent the actual wildlife in the area (despite what many perceive) and it it very cool that Lehigh has a modern Hawk mascot, something you can't do with "Engineer". Overall I think the latest generation has embraced the Mountain Hawk and it works. But I understand the tension.

I never heard the "Engineer is male" aspect to the debate when it was happening. Engineers aren't necessarily male! However I did hear that the school did want to de-emphasize the fact that they were perceived as ONLY engineering. That Engineering is male-dominated isn't much of a secret, either. So I had no reason to doubt Doc's pals.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Someone like DFW or LFN may know this better but I thought that originally, the AI was put in with the goal that an incoming player at an Ivy school was within range of the average accepted student at that school. Early on that meant a competitive advantage for the lower academic schools and it helps explain why the 80's, 90's and maybe early 2000's saw alot of Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn teams at or near the top of the rankings. They then went to a league-wide AI and it flipped the script so that the higher ranked schools now held an advantage and it's why you see H-Y-P almost always now either winning or sharing the title. That's how it was explained to me at least. Curious if those in the know can confirm?

A similar thing happened in the PL which helps explain how Dave Clawson was able to finally turn things around for us back in the early 2000's as he was the first to really exploit that advantage. I believe the PL followed suit sometime around when we implemented scholarships but not sure where things stand now exactly.

I think G-town is an outlier v the Ivy as it relates to the AI since they're the only school not able to give $$ the same way other PL schools can. There's no equivalent for that in the Ivies imo. I think there's a bunch of kids who can be offered by Fordham, HC, Bucknell et al that can't get into G-town, so that pares the market down a bit assuming my take on the AI makes that statement true. Then, those kids who can get into G-town will now have to go through whatever their financial aid gets them v a scholarship to play at a lower ranked PL school. Those are two huge disadvantages out of the gate. Makes it all the more remarkable how competitive Sgarlata got them these past few years.

There are multiple factors at play, I'd say. The Ivy League and Patriot League did have a strict AI policy early on, which was replaced at some point with the more fair "banding system". Without going into a sleep-inducing description of everything, how I'd characterize it would be as follows:

There is an AI floor for the whole league. But admissions decisions always, always, went through admissions (and the President's office), not the athletic departments. So coaches could give a list of guys they were interested in, but sometimes admissions would admit them, or not. There could be differences of opinion. At Harvard, admissions are, let's just say, hugely challenging. Even if a kid is at the floor admissions might not agree he should come.

Originally, the league made a strict policy that "kids playing football should be the same academic cred as the rest of the class" (mostly - within one standard deviation). Somewhere in the 90s (I think), the Ivies went to a "banding system" which basically "forced" football admits to have a certain "shape". (I think that's what is meant by a "leaguewide AI policy." A certain number of kids could be admitted that were in AI "bands". On average, the bands would be "representative" of the whole class, but a school like Harvard could go two deviations lower to admit someone.

But the bands are set up so that no school can abuse the privilege. Harvard can't pack their team with kids that are close to the AI floor. They have a certain number they could recruit - not many - and the rest have to be near the top.

The issue with relying on just AI as a data point is that all along the way the way monetary aid has been distributed in both the Ivy and PL has been changed astronomically over the years. It's hard to remember now, but back in the early 1990s the Ivies were having kids pay tuition (even though they could have done without it), every Patriot League football player was waiting for FAFSA numbers, and almost all of them had to do at least some work study. Now of course the Patriot League has scholarships available and the Ivy League subsidizes the education of a huge number of students (not just athletes). To me, I look at H-Y-P's massive endowments and see a correlation with successful football teams the last five years.

One thing is for sure - the Patriot League always lived at a strange intersection of academia/Ivies, regional schools/FBS like Rutgers, and elite FCS schools like Villanova, UNH and Delaware. The Patriot League has been squeezed by all three: the Ivies now have huge rosters and tons of aid to attract the most academically-minded; regional schools (not just Rutgers, also MAC schools, UConn, UMass) have made inroads into D-I football kids that might have been overlooked or under recruited; and other FCS schools simply offer things like 63 scholarships, redshirting that the Patriot League seems unwilling to even consider adopting. It's an ever-shrinking block.

[Fordham]

http://www.icac.us/projects

Stumbled on this as Fordham's AD is doing a comprehensive look at athletics within the university and one of the schools they worked with was Scranton. It specifically references NOT adding football but just found it interesting that one of the paths they were exploring was consideration of moving to D1 with the hope of joining a conference "like the Patriot League". I'm sure it's a long-shot/non-starter but saw the reference and figured I'd post it.

If they would actually consider adding football they would be an amazing geographic fit and it would be nice to have a 3rd Jesuit school in the league. I have not looked up their academic ranking to know where they stand v a school like Marist.

[nodak651]

What about RPI? https://rpiathletics.com/images/2020/5/15/ECAV.jpg

[Go...gate]

http://www.icac.us/projects

Stumbled on this as Fordham's AD is doing a comprehensive look at athletics within the university and one of the schools they worked with was Scranton. It specifically references NOT adding football but just found it interesting that one of the paths they were exploring was consideration of moving to D1 with the hope of joining a conference "like the Patriot League". I'm sure it's a long-shot/non-starter but saw the reference and figured I'd post it.

If they would actually consider adding football they would be an amazing geographic fit and it would be nice to have a 3rd Jesuit school in the league. I have not looked up their academic ranking to know where they stand v a school like Marist.

Very interesting....

[Go...gate]

What about RPI? https://rpiathletics.com/images/2020/5/15/ECAV.jpg

Very old Colgate rival in a number of sports.

[DFW HOYA]

I think G-town is an outlier v the Ivy as it relates to the AI since they're the only school not able to give $$ the same way other PL schools can. There's no equivalent for that in the Ivies imo. I think there's a bunch of kids who can be offered by Fordham, HC, Bucknell et al that can't get into G-town, so that pares the market down a bit assuming my take on the AI makes that statement true. Then, those kids who can get into G-town will now have to go through whatever their financial aid gets them v a scholarship to play at a lower ranked PL school. Those are two huge disadvantages out of the gate. Makes it all the more remarkable how competitive Sgarlata got them these past few years.

Georgetown's recruiting hill just got a little higher to climb.

"Georgetown required either SAT or ACT standardized test scores for all students applying this year with exceptions for pandemic-related circumstances, such as a last minute testing administration cancellation. This admissions cycle was competitive, with the average admitted student ranking in the top 6% of their high school class. In addition, the SAT Verbal middle 50% range was 750 to 770, the SAT Math middle 50% range was 770 to 790 and the ACT middle 50% range was 34 to 35."



https://thehoya.com/georgetown-admits-12-of-regular-decision-applicants-for-class-of-2026/

[NY Crusader 2010]

http://www.icac.us/projects

Stumbled on this as Fordham's AD is doing a comprehensive look at athletics within the university and one of the schools they worked with was Scranton. It specifically references NOT adding football but just found it interesting that one of the paths they were exploring was consideration of moving to D1 with the hope of joining a conference "like the Patriot League". I'm sure it's a long-shot/non-starter but saw the reference and figured I'd post it.

If they would actually consider adding football they would be an amazing geographic fit and it would be nice to have a 3rd Jesuit school in the league. I have not looked up their academic ranking to know where they stand v a school like Marist.

Scranton would be a great fit for the MAAC. Can't see them trying to jump from DIII to DI AND add football.

[Fordham]

Scranton would be a great fit for the MAAC. Can't see them trying to jump from DIII to DI AND add football.

Yeah, it’s a total non starter.

Seems like the choice is clearly to take a less than perfect academic fit or else relax requirements to try to lure a CAA school or two in. I don’t see either happening btw. Read DFWs article about relaxing certain Ivy-mimicking requirements to try to get Del, Nova, Richmond et al interested. I don’t see them doing that. I think the PL will keep reverting to the “do nothing” approach and see what the landscape looks like 5 years from now. And if it’s the same, they’ll punt for another 5

[DFW HOYA]

Seems like the choice is clearly to take a less than perfect academic fit or else relax requirements to try to lure a CAA school or two in. I don’t see either happening btw. Read DFWs article about relaxing certain Ivy-mimicking requirements to try to get Del, Nova, Richmond et al interested. I don’t see them doing that. I think the PL will keep reverting to the “do nothing” approach and see what the landscape looks like 5 years from now. And if it’s the same, they’ll punt for another 5

It's not "relaxing" as it is aligning PL football with the subdivision as it exists today. Because one day, the next coach at Georgetown will realize he can't win if the league mandates he must recruit kids with 1500's on the SAT, and he gets his school to start thinking differently. One day, Fordham officials are going to ask why they're spending $8 million a year on a sport where its conference gets one bid. One day, the CAA will collapse of its own weight and the New England schools will pay a visit to Holy Cross. The PL needs to start controlling its future before the future controls it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's not "relaxing" as it is aligning PL football with the subdivision as it exists today. Because one day, the next coach at Georgetown will realize he can't win if the league mandates he must recruit kids with 1500's on the SAT, and he gets his school to start thinking differently. One day, Fordham officials are going to ask why they're spending $8 million a year on a sport where its conference gets one bid. One day, the CAA will collapse of its own weight and the New England schools will pay a visit to Holy Cross. The PL needs to start controlling its future before the future controls it.

Much of this will depend on how FCS football, and college football, is going to be organized in the next year or two. Right now, every FCS football conference is an uneasy fit of different schools, even the Patriot League, because NCAA conferences have evolved mostly based on basketball considerations and not regional/football considerations. The CAA, Big Sky, and Missouri Valley football conferences' names are basically only brands; they are actually ECAC-like superconferences that comprise of at least seven different "hoops conference" members alone.

The Patriot League's issue is that they are clinging to a conference-wide model that is incompatible with how other schools are willing to operate. For example, Richmond wouldn't ever at the moment consider the Patriot League not because they don't believe in academic standards, but because their whole football philosophy is extensive redshirting (and getting the redshirts a little game action in their redshirt years). This doesn't only apply to Richmond - I think this even applies to a school like St. Francis (PA) or Marist.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yeah, it’s a total non starter.

Seems like the choice is clearly to take a less than perfect academic fit or else relax requirements to try to lure a CAA school or two in. I don’t see either happening btw. Read DFWs article about relaxing certain Ivy-mimicking requirements to try to get Del, Nova, Richmond et al interested. I don’t see them doing that. I think the PL will keep reverting to the “do nothing” approach and see what the landscape looks like 5 years from now. And if it’s the same, they’ll punt for another 5

The combined number of serious football supporters at Delaware, Villanova, Richmond and W&M who would get behind a potential move to the Patriot League could fit in a phone booth.