Year 3 of Patriot League Football Scholarships

[carney2]

This is year three for Patriot League football scholarships, so theoretically everyone from juniors on down have been signed on to receive an athletic grant. At this point however, the League is pretty much a piñata for the CAA with only two teams “guaranteed” winning seasons:

Fordham, who is actually, I think, in year 7 of scholarships and is the class of the League, although probably not up to its preseason polls level.

Bucknell, who will once again record Ws with a laughable OOC schedule.

The rest will probably challenge .500 from one side or the other.

I seem to remember that year 3 of scholarships at Fordham did not go well either, but that year 4 was a breakout after Joe Moorhead began filling his roster with FBS transfers. Perhaps, then, year three is too early to have expectations.

So, what are your thoughts? Is this on schedule? Are you disappointed? Where is it headed?

PS: Before DFW chimes in with his "feel sorry for me" comments, it should be noted that Georgetown has not signed on to the athletic scholarship bandwagon for football. It should also be noted that they gave a decent account of themselves last year under their first year coach and may have a chance to also challenge .500 this year. If that happens, it may be a significant comment on scholarships in the Patriot League.

[RichH2]

One thing stands out in Year 3, everyone brought in their best groups yet. Seems to be the general learning curve for coaches adapting to schollies. Each year has gotten.better both in top level recruits and depth of talent. Possible that some may have breakout years if frosh and soph groups progress faster. Agree tho ,more likely that PL is still a year or two from an overall breakout.

[Sader87]

Pivotal year for Gilmore imo.....another sub .500 year, against a lackluster sked, could lead to changes on Mt St James.

[Gater]

Colgate is bigger and faster across the board but especially on D.

I think a lot of how the league does depends on QB play. Can't remember a year where there have been fewer established/acclaimed signal callers coming into a season. That being said, if Reed returns to his early form (probably the best start in college history), Fordham's transfer is as good as advertised, Colgate's Melville stays healthy and builds on his 5-2 season, etc. the league could win some games.

[RichH2]

Colgate is bigger and faster across the board but especially on D.

I think a lot of how the league does depends on QB play. Can't remember a year where there have been fewer established/acclaimed signal callers coming into a season. That being said, if Reed returns to his early form (probably the best start in college history), Fordham's transfer is as good as advertised, Colgate's Melville stays healthy and builds on his 5-2 season, etc. the league could win some games.
Let's not forget Shafnisky. Playing hurt all year still had well over 2000 yds passing and over 500 yds rushing. After off season shouldercprocedure,he is 100% for the first time since HS.

[Go...gate]

Good thread. IMO, so far not a lot of difference, but Fordham's template indicates that years four and five of scholarships will tell the tale.

[carney2]

Let's not forget Shafnisky.

I have forgotten Shafnisky. Injuries notwithstanding, he has not shown himself to be D-1 caliber. I am hereby going on record to predict that he will be replaced by Mayes In the Fordham game, or before.

But, back to the topic of this thread ...

[RichH2]

I have forgotten Shafnisky. Injuries notwithstanding, he has not shown himself to be D-1 caliber. I am hereby going on record to predict that he will be replaced by Mayes In the Fordham game, or before.

But, back to the topic of this thread ...
As good as Brad is ,Timochenko still 2nd. Wouldn't be surprised to see Brad move up quickly. Disagree on Shaf. Even without an arm last year he put up great numbers behind a patchwork O,particularly last part of season. Think you are in for a surprise.

[PAllen]

...
I think a lot of how the league does depends on QB play....

When is that not the case in the PL?

[DFW HOYA]

PS: Before DFW chimes in with his "feel sorry for me" comments, it should be noted that Georgetown has not signed on to the athletic scholarship bandwagon for football. It should also be noted that they gave a decent account of themselves last year under their first year coach and may have a chance to also challenge .500 this year. If that happens, it may be a significant comment on scholarships in the Patriot League.

No one is asking to feel sorry for me--never did.

Georgetown made the decision and will suffer the competitive consequences for it. What I said three years ago holds true: either Georgetown has to accept the prospect of winless conference records as a competitive reality for the forseeable future, or seek another scheduling arrangement where the lack of scholarship support can be mitigated by the removal of the PL Academic Index. For now, it's the former.

There is almost zero likelihood of your prediction of a .500 season. This is a team which is 3-17 over the last two seasons to teams not named Holy Cross, which drops to 1-16 when Davidson and Marist are added to the equation.

[centennial]

No troll- Does anyone think that the Patriot will become as good as the CAA in a couple of years?

[RichH2]

No troll- Does anyone think that the Patriot will become as good as the CAA in a couple of years?
As good as? Pribably not overall. Competitive absolutely. Top teams in PL will match up very well with CAA. We are unlikely to have the depth of talent as CAA given our schollie cap.

[Gordon Shumway]

I think you guys are going to have to accept the importance of redshirting at some point. YMMV

[RichH2]

I think you guys are going to have to accept the importance of redshirting at some point. YMMV
You're not going to get any disagreement from us. We already do in wrestling,so it is not a Lehigh issue. Actually an unneccessary remnant of our Ivy Lite days. No financial reason for it like our schollie cap. Think PL will eventually modify it . Not gonna happen until eveyone at max,probably for a couple of years.

[DFW HOYA]

No troll- Does anyone think that the Patriot will become as good as the CAA in a couple of years?

Tough to judge a seven team league against a 12 team one.

I think it'll take a move to 63 scholarships and a closer look at the AI for the PL to be a consistent competitor with the CAA.

[RichH2]

DFW
Dont see PL making any big changes to AI. IMO that is not the major restraint on football tho. For us to be more competitive with CAA ,red shirting must be addressed and cap modified. If we cant get a full 63 ,permit need aid equivalencies to NCAA cap.

[RootinFerDukes]

No troll- Does anyone think that the Patriot will become as good as the CAA in a couple of years?

IMO no, but I have a bias. It will require better Fcs ooc records across the board including scheduling the top conferences. You will need to have a number of fbs upsets, and that's tougher with the big 10 refusing to schedule Fcs right in your region.
You have to beat the CAA head to head and start getting at least as many playoff bids, if not more than.
Finally, a patriot team will need to win the Fcs title to really stand out.
The entire conference needs to be at 63 scholarships and Georgetown can't keep not offering any.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

From the PL's first playoff win until the culmination of Colgate's Finals appearance, the champ was 3-2 against the A10 conference auto-bid winner/recognized champ. Lehigh beat Richmond in 1998, Delaware beat Lehigh in 2000, Lehigh beat Hofstra in 2001, Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 and Colgate lost to Delaware in the 2003 title game. The PL teams did lose to A10 teams during this period but they weren't the conference champ, auto-bid winner.

After that six season run, the Patriot League hung in for two more years, Lehigh lost by 1, 14-13 to eventual national champ JMU in 2004 and Lafayette fought App State for 60 minutes in Boone the following year. App State won their first of 3 titles that season. Then the downward spiral started imo. After Colgate's Finals run it took 7 seasons until the league would win another playoff game. Lehigh beat the MVFC champ in 2010 and backed that up with a win over the CAA champ in 2011. Fordham has held serve against the NEC champ the last two years.

As I said before, Fordham has done nothing a non-schollie team hasn't done. In fact, there's been better PL teams relative to the Rams last two editions imo. I think their 2002 squad was better than their 2013 team.

The league simply needs to ramp it up and raise expectations. However, you can't raise the level when the Lafayette administration is indifferent to 5 straight losing seasons, or so it seems. Also Holy Cross's struggles the last 3 years haven't helped either. Lehigh and Colgate need to turn it around. This is a big year for all four programs imo.

Scholarships alone aren't going to make a difference if there isn't a real commitment from the institution to raising the level. That's why there's plenty of terrible scholarship FCS programs around the country. Hopefully the PL is not a league filled with them

[BluBengal07]

Still proud of my little cousin. Good luck Chanse!

https://scontent.fdtw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11800554_920266101366943_5308120919809992598_n.jpg ?oh=1a872c870897f9ed62f6b76e1e02a708&oe=563E09B2

[RichH2]

From the PL's first playoff win until the culmination of Colgate's Finals appearance, the champ was 3-2 against the A10 conference auto-bid winner/recognized champ. Lehigh beat Richmond in 1998, Delaware beat Lehigh in 2000, Lehigh beat Hofstra in 2001, Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 and Colgate lost to Delaware in the 2003 title game. The PL teams did lose to A10 teams during this period but they weren't the conference champ, auto-bid winner.

After that six season run, the Patriot League hung in for two more years, Lehigh lost by 1, 14-13 to eventual national champ JMU in 2004 and Lafayette fought App State for 60 minutes in Boone the following year. App State won their first of 3 titles that season. Then the downward spiral started imo. After Colgate's Finals run it took 7 seasons until the league would win another playoff game. Lehigh beat the MVFC champ in 2010 and backed that up with a win over the CAA champ in 2011. Fordham has held serve against the NEC champ the last two years.

As I said before, Fordham has done nothing a non-schollie team hasn't done. In fact, there's been better PL teams relative to the Rams last two editions imo. I think their 2002 squad was better than their 2013 team.

The league simply needs to ramp it up and raise expectations. However, you can't raise the level when the Lafayette administration is indifferent to 5 straight losing seasons, or so it seems. Also Holy Cross's struggles the last 3 years haven't helped either. Lehigh and Colgate need to turn it around. This is a big year for all four programs imo.

Scholarships alone aren't going to make a difference if there isn't a real commitment from the institution to raising the level. That's why there's plenty of terrible scholarship FCS programs around the country. Hopefully the PL is not a league filled with them
Well said. Luckily we have a committed Admin and an excellent AD. It seems other than Holy Cross all the schools are committed to creating better programs.

[ngineer]

You're not going to get any disagreement from us. We already do in wrestling,so it is not a Lehigh issue. Actually an unneccessary remnant of our Ivy Lite days. No financial reason for it like our schollie cap. Think PL will eventually modify it . Not gonna happen until eveyone at max,probably for a couple of years.

The problem is COST. With Redshirts you are talking five years at $60K. Wrestling has a much smaller roster. I agree this is a significant impediment to the PL ever achieving 'equality' with CAA or similar conferences, but we will be competitive. While we will increase our skill level, depth will be a problem for any team that runs into injury problems.

[ngineer]

Well said. Luckily we have a committed Admin and an excellent AD. It seems other than Holy Cross all the schools are committed to creating better programs.

I am very optimistic about our new President, John Simon. He comes from Virginia with a prior stint at Duke, so he is fully supportive of top notch athletics being complementary of excellent academics. It is a more difficult road, but I see Simon being very supportive of attempts to make the PL respectably competitive.

[RichH2]

The problem is COST. With Redshirts you are talking five years at $60K. Wrestling has a much smaller roster. I agree this is a significant impediment to the PL ever achieving 'equality' with CAA or similar conferences, but we will be competitive. While we will increase our skill level, depth will be a problem for any team that runs into injury problems.
Perhaps but increase in cost depends a bit on how each school budgets athletic costs. A morass of differnt accting methods.
An possible option is modifying redshirt rule to permit a fixed number of athletic redshirts annually. Not quite CAA but better than what we have now.

[centennial]

The problem is COST. With Redshirts you are talking five years at $60K. Wrestling has a much smaller roster. I agree this is a significant impediment to the PL ever achieving 'equality' with CAA or similar conferences, but we will be competitive. While we will increase our skill level, depth will be a problem for any team that runs into injury problems.
Let's say there are 60 scholarships at 50k a year. You cannot exceed them.
Total cost- 60 x 50= 3 million a year
It will always be 3 million a year, even if it is for 5 years, scholarships are limited. Just means less kids come into the program.

[RichH2]

Let's say there are 60 scholarships at 50k a year. You cannot exceed them.
Total cost- 60 x 50= 3 million a year
It will always be 3 million a year, even if it is for 5 years, scholarships are limited. Just means less kids come into the program.
True as to total amount of scholarship money. Extra cost depends on accting methods used by school. Some do not charge tuition amt of active players against AD budget but against school's overall budget along with need and merit schollies. In other words , physics dept 's budget is not charged with schollies physics majors get. However,redshirt schollies are charged against the AD budget increasing its costs.

[ngineer]

Let's say there are 60 scholarships at 50k a year. You cannot exceed them.
Total cost- 60 x 50= 3 million a year
It will always be 3 million a year, even if it is for 5 years, scholarships are limited. Just means less kids come into the program.

Which significantly impacts quality of depth. That has always been our weak link. Many years we have stayed close to full scholly schools but by the fourth quarter, we haven't been able to stay as fresh by subbing. Leaves little room when the injury bug bites.

[Fordham]

Good thread. IMO, so far not a lot of difference, but Fordham's template indicates that years four and five of scholarships will tell the tale. I'm not sure if our template is that you need a full four years of scholarship classes or if it's that you need to clean house in your coaching staff to a group who has no experience with need-based recruiting and the old way of doing things. Between adding scholarships and adding Coach Moorhead, adding Coach was clearly the more important of the two imo; it's just that you don't get Coach M if you don't have scholarships.


No troll- Does anyone think that the Patriot will become as good as the CAA in a couple of years?
No, not across the board. The combination of admissions and redshirting (mentioned above) will keep the league back. What stood out in the UNH game for me was that we matched up pretty well in the skill positions but the lines were a battle of men v boys. A 22 y/o 5th year senior with that many years in the strength & conditioning program as well as just years in the same system and playing alongside the same teammates has a huge advantage over an 18 - 21 y/o who has been doing all of that for less. That said, I do believe that the PL will settle in as a more legit FCS conference in time, though, with a team here and there that breaks through and makes a run at the title and ones that do much better in the playoffs than the 2004-2012 PL teams performed. I'm ok with that even if we never allow full blown redshirting and keep the AI. Being competitive with a chance to make a run is a nice place to be v where the league had fallen to following Colgate's run imo.

[carney2]

I think you guys are going to have to accept the importance of redshirting at some point. YMMV

Importance, yes. Practicality, ... well, not so easy. Four of the current seven Patriot League members either have no graduate programs or so few as to be a non-factor. What do they do with the kids for that extra year, or even two? Here are two sales pitches to a high school kid who cannot decide between two otherwise evenly matched schools:

School 1: We redshirt, but you will most likely be in an MBA program in that fifth year.

School 2: We redshirt and it will take you 5 years to earn your 4 year degree.

Who wins that recruiting war?

[RichH2]

Importance, yes. Practicality, ... well, not so easy. Four of the current seven Patriot League members either have no graduate programs or so few as to be a non-factor. What do they do with the kids for that extra year, or even two? Here are two sales pitches to a high school kid who cannot decide between two otherwise evenly matched schools:

School 1: We redshirt, but you will most likely be in an MBA program in that fifth year.

School 2: We redshirt and it will take you 5 years to earn your 4 year degree.

Who wins that recruiting war?
Well,are we selling education with football or 5 yrs to play football?
Is recruit looking for a great education with a schollie to play football or is he looking to maximize his football time while getting a degree?
Think PL will mostly target the former. So 5 yrs and 2 degrees may be more enticing than 5 yrs and 1 degree.

[DFW HOYA]

Importance, yes. Practicality, ... well, not so easy. Four of the current seven Patriot League members either have no graduate programs or so few as to be a non-factor.

So, to protect schools that don't have grad programs, the other five can't use them. And if there was a vote, would that be fair?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No troll- Does anyone think that the Patriot will become as good as the CAA in a couple of years?

The Patriot League has a long way to go to get to the CAA.

This will become evident after the league goes 1-5, or very possibly 0-6, in its first 3 weeks vs. the CAA.

[Sader87]

When did redshirting in football become so de rigueur at the FCS-level? Seemed like it was the exception rather than norm in the 1980s.

How many red-shirt seniors will most of the CAA schools have playing this season generally?

[RootinFerDukes]

I'm not going to research the rosters of all CAA schools, but just looking at JMU's roster, there are 10 redshirt seniors.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Wasn't the redshirt rule a matter of contention between Lehigh and UD in the 90's? Delaware wanted to play LU in the first or second game while LU preferred it in early to mid October?

[van]

I'm not going to research the rosters of all CAA schools, but just looking at JMU's roster, there are 10 redshirt seniors.

curious, how many are starters? and what is the roster size? much harder to get walk-ons to fill out rosters at PL schools with tuition $$, believe I heard Lehigh has 2 walk ons on the roster this year

[RootinFerDukes]

curious, how many are starters? and what is the roster size? much harder to get walk-ons to fill out rosters at PL schools with tuition $$, believe I heard Lehigh has 2 walk ons on the roster this year

There are 98 on our roster and I know that at least 9 of the 10 RS Sr are starters. One only saw three games last year and isn't a familiar name to me, so I'm not completely sure on him.
They don't publish the depth charts to my knowledge.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Importance, yes. Practicality, ... well, not so easy. Four of the current seven Patriot League members either have no graduate programs or so few as to be a non-factor. What do they do with the kids for that extra year, or even two? Here are two sales pitches to a high school kid who cannot decide between two otherwise evenly matched schools:

School 1: We redshirt, but you will most likely be in an MBA program in that fifth year.

School 2: We redshirt and it will take you 5 years to earn your 4 year degree.

Who wins that recruiting war?

And the third option is 4.5 years to earn your 4 year degree. I don't think the majority of players at schools that redshirt enroll in Graduate School for their 5th year. Many players take a course in Summer School each year. They can take one less course during the Fall Semester and between Summer School and the "5th Year" take some pressure off during the semester they play while maintaining eligibility. Most of the seniors I've spoken to have a lighter load that 5th Year to finish up their undergrad degree requirements.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

When did redshirting in football become so de rigueur at the FCS-level? Seemed like it was the exception rather than norm in the 1980s.

How many red-shirt seniors will most of the CAA schools have playing this season generally?

I think most of the seniors playing will be redshirt seniors. UNH for at least the past 5-6 years has been redshirting all but one or two freshmen. That makes the vast majority of seniors on the roster as 5th year seniors. At the same time there may be 1-2 guys a year who graduate in four years and don't return for their last year of eligibility. Either don't want to attend graduate school, go for a second undergrad degree or just are ready to get on with life and get a job.

Once enough quality depth became available then redshirting became normal.

[clenz]

And the third option is 4.5 years to earn your 4 year degree. I don't think the majority of players at schools that redshirt enroll in Graduate School for their 5th year. Many players take a course in Summer School each year. They can take one less course during the Fall Semester and between Summer School and the "5th Year" take some pressure off during the semester they play while maintaining eligibility. Most of the seniors I've spoken to have a lighter load that 5th Year to finish up their undergrad degree requirements.
That's what 90% of 5th years are.

It allows greater focus on academic work during the fall semester because you don't have as many classes to balance with football. It allows for better transition to college that first year, especially fall, to be able to take 4...maybe 5 classes...in stead of 5 or 6.

From an academic standpoint it's a great thing

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[RichH2]

And the third option is 4.5 years to earn your 4 year degree. I don't think the majority of players at schools that redshirt enroll in Graduate School for their 5th year. Many players take a course in Summer School each year. They can take one less course during the Fall Semester and between Summer School and the "5th Year" take some pressure off during the semester they play while maintaining eligibility. Most of the seniors I've spoken to have a lighter load that 5th Year to finish up their undergrad degree requirements.
A good number of LU players also take a summer course to lighten load.
Quick scan CAA rosters run mid 80s to JMU at 98.
PL reportedly does allow 5 true WOs that wont count vs caps. A lot of complaints on the 90 roster cap.
ngineer, Added another WO in camp.
Still think PL will not address redshirting unless forced to. Doubt unlimited will ever be on the table. A modified fixed number seems possible.

[ngineer]

The redshirt is a significant difference maker. If JMU has 10 R/S seniors, those guys are 22-23 years old. for teams with true freshmen and sophomores liberally sprinkled throughout, those age differences can make big differences. I can see the PL going to some 'modified' R/S rule down the road..and maybe that will be the 'change' that might lure another FCS team to join the PL.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The redshirt is a significant difference maker. If JMU has 10 R/S seniors, those guys are 22-23 years old. for teams with true freshmen and sophomores liberally sprinkled throughout, those age differences can make big differences. I can see the PL going to some 'modified' R/S rule down the road..and maybe that will be the 'change' that might lure another FCS team to join the PL.

5th year guys can be huge. Rich might know better than me but I'm pretty sure the 2011 team had 3-4 key 5th year guys. Flizack and Fitz and couple others iirc.....

[NY Crusader 2010]

Holy Cross' last championship banner in 2009 would certainly not have been raised without fifth year seniors driving the bus. 1st team All-PL QB Dominic Randolph along with two starters on the offensive line.

[clenz]

I asked this once before - on a thread months ago..

I know PL schools have a very high 4 year graduation rate but is that stat so important that you can't allow your sports teams (not just football...do other teams use redshirts?) to redshirt?

Does graduating in 4.5 years count against the 4 year graduation rate?

Is the 10-15 kids per year for football that would take 4.5 years really going to screw your 4 year graduation rate?

Take all sports into consideration and you're still only looking at about 30ish kids. If you're school has 5,000 undergrads that is .6% of your students....six tenths of one percent.

Take UNI - whom is very redshirt heavy in all sports - and you still have only about 12-15 redshirt kids per class.

It doesn't really affect the money, because it doesn't matter if the kid is a rSr or Fr - the money is still being used. It doesn't even really affect how many kids come in each year. It might for a year or two while things even out but once you've have a full cylce of redshirting players it's pretty easy to balance classes. The redshirts are always leaving and new redshirts are coming in to replace them. It doesn't affect depth. It makes depth better because instead of a true freshman having to play significant time you can have a redshirt freshman who had a year to grow his body and get used to the college game. As that redshirt freshman grows there are kids coming in behind him to redshirt. By the time he is a redshirt senior there's a likelyhood he's backed up by a redshirt junior and a redshirt freshman than than a true freshman and sophomore.

[Go...gate]

From the PL's first playoff win until the culmination of Colgate's Finals appearance, the champ was 3-2 against the A10 conference auto-bid winner/recognized champ. Lehigh beat Richmond in 1998, Delaware beat Lehigh in 2000, Lehigh beat Hofstra in 2001, Fordham beat Northeastern in 2002 and Colgate lost to Delaware in the 2003 title game. The PL teams did lose to A10 teams during this period but they weren't the conference champ, auto-bid winner.

After that six season run, the Patriot League hung in for two more years, Lehigh lost by 1, 14-13 to eventual national champ JMU in 2004 and Lafayette fought App State for 60 minutes in Boone the following year. App State won their first of 3 titles that season. Then the downward spiral started imo. After Colgate's Finals run it took 7 seasons until the league would win another playoff game. Lehigh beat the MVFC champ in 2010 and backed that up with a win over the CAA champ in 2011. Fordham has held serve against the NEC champ the last two years.

As I said before, Fordham has done nothing a non-schollie team hasn't done. In fact, there's been better PL teams relative to the Rams last two editions imo. I think their 2002 squad was better than their 2013 team.

The league simply needs to ramp it up and raise expectations. However, you can't raise the level when the Lafayette administration is indifferent to 5 straight losing seasons, or so it seems. Also Holy Cross's struggles the last 3 years haven't helped either. Lehigh and Colgate need to turn it around. This is a big year for all four programs imo.

Scholarships alone aren't going to make a difference if there isn't a real commitment from the institution to raising the level. That's why there's plenty of terrible scholarship FCS programs around the country. Hopefully the PL is not a league filled with them

Colgate also beat Massachusetts (an A-10 at-large) in the 2003 play-offs.

[RichH2]

I asked this once before - on a thread months ago..

I know PL schools have a very high 4 year graduation rate but is that stat so important that you can't allow your sports teams (not just football...do other teams use redshirts?) to redshirt?

Does graduating in 4.5 years count against the 4 year graduation rate?

Is the 10-15 kids per year for football that would take 4.5 years really going to screw your 4 year graduation rate?

Take all sports into consideration and you're still only looking at about 30ish kids. If you're school has 5,000 undergrads that is .6% of your students....six tenths of one percent.

Take UNI - whom is very redshirt heavy in all sports - and you still have only about 12-15 redshirt kids per class.

It doesn't really affect the money, because it doesn't matter if the kid is a rSr or Fr - the money is still being used. It doesn't even really affect how many kids come in each year. It might for a year or two while things even out but once you've have a full cylce of redshirting players it's pretty easy to balance classes. The redshirts are always leaving and new redshirts are coming in to replace them. It doesn't affect depth. It makes depth better because instead of a true freshman having to play significant time you can have a redshirt freshman who had a year to grow his body and get used to the college game. As that redshirt freshman grows there are kids coming in behind him to redshirt. By the time he is a redshirt senior there's a likelyhood he's backed up by a redshirt junior and a redshirt freshman than than a true freshman and sophomore.
Grad rate is important to the Presidents and they make PL rules. A deal breaker? Probably not but a definite stumbling block. Grad rate ,rather arcane and the two ratings are computed on different bases. As to overall rate ,a minimal impact. Not so mnmal on football rate. Pres.Concil used to practically all PL athletic teams being over 90%
A premature topic for PL. Zero will happen until after next class when all should be at or very close to PL max. Absent events outside PL,little liklihood that anyhing major will be done with that rule for at least a couple more years. We have quite a few FBS scheduled along with CAA teams. We get hammered, pressure will mount from ADs to either go to 63 or loosen redshirt rule. Concil time is measured in decades not years,so how soon they will react will not be rapid. Of course,Council may decide to pull football back to a more Ivy centric schedule. Truly depressing concept.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The GSR is based on a six-year or seven-year graduation time, I believe. That's an NCAA-wide metric and covers all schools. I think the PL quotes that and the APR as their big academic benchmarks, all NCAA-related numbers.

[LeopardBall10]

And the third option is 4.5 years to earn your 4 year degree. I don't think the majority of players at schools that redshirt enroll in Graduate School for their 5th year. Many players take a course in Summer School each year. They can take one less course during the Fall Semester and between Summer School and the "5th Year" take some pressure off during the semester they play while maintaining eligibility. Most of the seniors I've spoken to have a lighter load that 5th Year to finish up their undergrad degree requirements.

I agree that this solution makes the most sense by far. Unfortunately, I know for a fact that Lafayette would have issues with this simply because of the odd way they do their scheduling. Unlike almost every other institution that I know of Lafayette uses their own credit system, one that does not match their peers. Each full semester course is 1 credit, with a small offering of .5 credit courses. A regular course load is 4 credits a semester.Unless you are an engineering student you cannot take more than 4 courses, and any less than 3 is not considered full time. So, the issue that some players run into is that if they only schedule 3 classes because they took a summer class then they cannot drop a class. Dropping a class would drop you below the full time student status meaning you are part time and cannot participate in practice or games. If they don't drop the class then they risk being academically ineligible in the spring. That is why every student athlete is encouraged to take a full schedule so you can drop a class if something goes bad.

[van]

I agree that this solution makes the most sense by far. Unfortunately, I know for a fact that Lafayette would have issues with this simply because of the odd way they do their scheduling. Unlike almost every other institution that I know of Lafayette uses their own credit system, one that does not match their peers. Each full semester course is 1 credit, with a small offering of .5 credit courses. A regular course load is 4 credits a semester.Unless you are an engineering student you cannot take more than 4 courses, and any less than 3 is not considered full time. So, the issue that some players run into is that if they only schedule 3 classes because they took a summer class then they cannot drop a class. Dropping a class would drop you below the full time student status meaning you are part time and cannot participate in practice or games. If they don't drop the class then they risk being academically ineligible in the spring. That is why every student athlete is encouraged to take a full schedule so you can drop a class if something goes bad.

seems the solution to this would be to take 4 classes with the intent to drop one

[clenz]

I agree that this solution makes the most sense by far. Unfortunately, I know for a fact that Lafayette would have issues with this simply because of the odd way they do their scheduling. Unlike almost every other institution that I know of Lafayette uses their own credit system, one that does not match their peers. Each full semester course is 1 credit, with a small offering of .5 credit courses. A regular course load is 4 credits a semester.Unless you are an engineering student you cannot take more than 4 courses, and any less than 3 is not considered full time. So, the issue that some players run into is that if they only schedule 3 classes because they took a summer class then they cannot drop a class. Dropping a class would drop you below the full time student status meaning you are part time and cannot participate in practice or games. If they don't drop the class then they risk being academically ineligible in the spring. That is why every student athlete is encouraged to take a full schedule so you can drop a class if something goes bad.
That's an easier load from the start than the standard class load at a "normal" university

3 classes is full time at Lafayette? That's 9 credits at UNI (or any other standard university). To be full time at UNI you need 12 hours. The standard class load is 15 credits (5 classes). A decent number of students take 18 credits (6 classes)- which is the cap without paying extra. If you can't handle a 3 class course load that's an issue.

That doesn't chance how 4.5 years would work.

Fall redshirt year - 3 classes
Spring redshirt - 4 classes
Summer redshirt year - 1 class

Fall redshirt frosh year - 3 classes
Spring redshirt frosh - 4 classes
Summer redshirt frosh year - 1 class

Fall redshirt year soph- 3 classes
Spring redshirt soph - 4 classes
Summer redshirt soph year - 1 class

Fall redshirt year junior - 3 classes
Spring redshirt junior - 4 classes
Summer redshirt year junior - 1 class

Fall redshirt year senior - 4 classes


Going a full 5 years gives them 44 credits. I don't know what's required to graduate at Lafayette but that's 132 credits at UNI - almost every major is 120 but some business and education majors are 140-160 for a bachelors.

Hell, move to 2 summer classes and and you're at 40 - or 120 credits.

A typical redshirt with the standard system goes like this, if they are going only undergrad route

Fall redshirt year - 4 classes
Spring redshirt - 4 classes
Summer redshirt year - 1 class

Fall redshirt frosh year - 4 classes
Spring redshirt frosh - 4 classes
Summer redshirt frosh year - 1 class

Fall redshirt year soph- 4 classes
Spring redshirt soph - 4 classes
Summer redshirt soph year - 1 class

Fall redshirt year junior - 4 classes
Spring redshirt junior - 4 classes
Summer redshirt year junior - 1 class

Fall redshirt year senior - 4 classes

That's 120 credits, and realistically most are going 5 classes in the spring and sometimes 2 in the summer

Then there is the large number that are in grad school their 5th year. That course load would apparently cripple a Lafayette athlete? That's 5 classes in the fall, 5 in the spring and 1 (2 if in the business program) in the summer every year for the undergrad

[Sader87]

Guessing there's a tad bit more rigor in the courses at Lafayette than at UNI....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the 4.5 years to complete 4 year degree is how places like Wofford does it. It would be worthwhile if a Wofford person explained how it's done, because they clearly have this arrangement.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Lots of great points in this thread-- Yes, the Council of Presidents is painfully deliberative. I do not expect any discussion of a red-shirting change until after full implementation. One could hope that the well-publicized loss to the FBS of a Fordham starter for a fifth year at an FBS school might stimulate debate sooner. Nah. We will wait.

NCAA APR is a big deal at Bucknell. Bucknell's lofty standing in all-sport APR may be the single most-promoted factoid about its athletic department. This year it is #2. #1 is Stanford. Bucknell's current president is a Stanford lifer (undergrad, grad, faculty, admin), so maybe they feel confident that they can hold their place. We will wait, in any case.

[dgtw]

I went to a college where you took four classes each semester. You were awarded one unit for each class, a few classes were a half unit. A unit would transfer four semester hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pinnum]

So, to protect schools that don't have grad programs, the other five can't use them. And if there was a vote, would that be fair?

The redshirting issue is not that simple. Yes, paying five years of scholarship for four years of service can be worth while when year four and five can be significantly better than years one and two. It also makes recruiting easier as you don't have to bring in as many kids so you only focus on the kids you think will be the biggest impact and don't worry as much about the guys to fill out the roster.

However, the issue is that the PL schools are academically focused and the belief is that kids will get their degree and then graduate on to FBS grad schools. Most kids would jump at the chance to play in the SEC or Big Ten for a season while in grad school after excelling in the PL against FCS competition. Spending scholarships money to develop a kid to send to another program is not in the best interest of the schools. At many other FCS schools the academics are not as much of a concern since many of the kids need at least five full years to get their degrees.

[bison137]

That's an easier load from the start than the standard class load at a "normal" university

3 classes is full time at Lafayette? That's 9 credits at UNI (or any other standard university). To be full time at UNI you need 12 hours. The standard class load is 15 credits (5 classes). A decent number of students take 18 credits (6 classes)- which is the cap without paying extra. If you can't handle a 3 class course load that's an issue.

hen there is the large number that are in grad school their 5th year. That course load would apparently cripple a Lafayette athlete? That's 5 classes in the fall, 5 in the spring and 1 (2 if in the business program) in the summer every year for the undergrad[/

Then there is the large number that are in grad school their 5th year. That course load would apparently cripple a Lafayette athlete? That's 5 classes in the fall, 5 in the spring and 1 (2 if in the business program) in the summer every year for the undergrad



There is a huge difference between the courses at a PL school such as Lafayette and at UNI. At least 90% of UNI students couldn't handle three courses at a typical PL school. And over 90% of UNI players wouldn't have qualified for admission based on the AI.

[clenz]

The redshirting issue is not that simple. Yes, paying five years of scholarship for four years of service can be worth while when year four and five can be significantly better than years one and two. It also makes recruiting easier as you don't have to bring in as many kids so you only focus on the kids you think will be the biggest impact and don't worry as much about the guys to fill out the roster.

However, the issue is that the PL schools are academically focused and the belief is that kids will get their degree and then graduate on to FBS grad schools. Most kids would jump at the chance to play in the SEC or Big Ten for a season while in grad school after excelling in the PL against FCS competition. Spending scholarships money to develop a kid to send to another program is not in the best interest of the schools. At many other FCS schools the academics are not as much of a concern since many of the kids need at least five full years to get their degrees.
Then offer grey shirts or 4 for 5s.

UNI basketball has made an absolute living with key role players on 4 for 5s.

You pay your own way your red shirt year and then a scholarship for 5 years after that.

[clenz]

There is a huge difference between the courses at a PL school such as Lafayette and at UNI. At least 90% of UNI students couldn't handle three courses at a typical PL school. And over 90% of UNI players wouldn't have qualified for admission based on the AI.
It's nice to see the better than thou attitude hasn't changed out of the PL.

We are just so dumb out here that all you have to do is show up to classes to get a degree at UNI, or Iowa, or Iowa State, or Illinois, or someone like that.

We're just too dumb. Give me a ****ing break

[Sader87]

It's nice to see the better than thou attitude hasn't changed out of the PL.

We are just so dumb out here that all you have to do is show up to classes to get a degree at UNI, or Iowa, or Iowa State, or Illinois, or someone like that.

We're just too dumb. Give me a ****ing break

Ummm....just bustin' xdrunkyx

Point being though, courses/majors at some schools probably have somewhat more rigor than others (even within the schools themselves).

It is quite an accomplishment to play a D1 sport and graduate at any school....it's just more work at some places than at other institutions.

[clenz]

Ummm....just bustin' xdrunkyx

Point being though, courses/majors at some schools probably have somewhat more rigor than others (even within the schools themselves).

It is quite an accomplishment to play a D1 sport and graduate at any school....it's just more work at some places than at other institutions.
Meh..

UNI's business and education programs are near the top in the nation and extremely respected. I'm okay with my lowly state university degree

http://www.uni.edu/resources/national-rankings-and-honors

Does Northern Iowa look as flashy on a resume as Harvard? Nope.
Does Northern Iowa carry as much weight as any non-Ivy institution in America when it comes to those who know the degree giving institutions? Yep.

Believe it or not I knew a person who went to Harvard undergrad and was getting their MBA from UNI. Either UNI is a lot better than you'll give it credit for or Harvard isn't as great as others believe. He said UNI's MBA program was every bit as tough as any other program he looked at and every bit as good.

It's not like we're talking MVFC vs PL in terms of competitiveness...:D

[heath]

Lot of talk about red-shirts, CAA comparison and my school is just as good as your school. 3 years in and most PL schools say the have more talent than before........IMHO the PL is still a 1 bid league and I really thought 2-3 teams on a regular would be doable. I'm getting tired of some of the excuses why, just thought every team would be better........kinda like what Bucknell has done. Maybe next year the PL can rep 2-3 teams in the playoffs but not until then.

[RichH2]

Lot of talk about red-shirts, CAA comparison and my school is just as good as your school. 3 years in and most PL schools say the have more talent than before........IMHO the PL is still a 1 bid league and I really thought 2-3 teams on a regular would be doable. I'm getting tired of some of the excuses why, just thought every team would be better........kinda like what Bucknell has done. Maybe next year the PL can rep 2-3 teams in the playoffs but not until then.
Agree it would be to not have another bout of "mine is bigger than yours." posts.
Multiple bids a real long long shot for this year. Possible the year after, but I would not expect it til the year after that.

[DFW HOYA]

One of the unfortunate consequences of playoff expansion may have made the PL a one-bid league. With the autobid at the NEC and 3-4 solid bids from the CAA, the committee may not be so quick to add another at-large from the East at the expense of other conferences.

Winning in the non-conference will help. Wins over Ivy teams may not, at least not anymore.

[ngineer]

One of the unfortunate consequences of playoff expansion may have made the PL a one-bid league. With the autobid at the NEC and 3-4 solid bids from the CAA, the committee may not be so quick to add another at-large from the East at the expense of other conferences.

Winning in the non-conference will help. Wins over Ivy teams may not, at least not anymore.

Depends on which Ivy teams. Harvard,year in and year out is top 20 material and any of the top three/four teams of the IL would give most FCS teams a good battle. I agree, though, that it will be another year or two before we can have any expectations of an at-large coming from the PL. OOC competition with wins over ranked or 'name' programs will be needed.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lot of talk about red-shirts, CAA comparison and my school is just as good as your school. 3 years in and most PL schools say the have more talent than before........IMHO the PL is still a 1 bid league and I really thought 2-3 teams on a regular would be doable. I'm getting tired of some of the excuses why, just thought every team would be better........kinda like what Bucknell has done. Maybe next year the PL can rep 2-3 teams in the playoffs but not until then.

I'm pretty much with you. I thought the league would be considerably better than it is at this point. Having only a fringe Top 25 team is underachieving imo. With that said, I think the league has a fair chance for two bids this year. Bucknell couldn't have been far off last year. The Bison should be in the mix again this season. Someone from Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross is going to step-up. To what extent will determine the perception of the league this year.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Bison should be in the mix again this season. Someone from Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross is going to step-up. To what extent will determine the perception of the league this year.

If Bucknell had taken care of business in it's last game against Colgate, they finish 9-2 and likely get the last bid (though I still think 7-5 Indiana State would've been the more deserving "last team in" given their schedule and body of work).

Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross are the historical "core four" of the PL in football and the conference cannot succeed relative to the rest of FCS if these programs remain collectively down at the same time. Hopefully Fordham will remain competitive for many years to come -- glad we didn't lose them to the CAA when they decided to pursue scholarships.

[centennial]

I'm pretty much with you. I thought the league would be considerably better than it is at this point. Having only a fringe Top 25 team is underachieving imo. With that said, I think the league has a fair chance for two bids this year. Bucknell couldn't have been far off last year. The Bison should be in the mix again this season. Someone from Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Holy Cross is going to step-up. To what extent will determine the perception of the league this year.
With the MEAC out to the celebration bowl, I would support a good 2nd place team from the PL with enough OOC or a FBS win.

[FordhamFan]

Meh..

UNI's business and education programs are near the top in the nation and extremely respected. I'm okay with my lowly state university degree

http://www.uni.edu/resources/national-rankings-and-honors

Does Northern Iowa look as flashy on a resume as Harvard? Nope.
Does Northern Iowa carry as much weight as any non-Ivy institution in America when it comes to those who know the degree giving institutions? Yep.

Believe it or not I knew a person who went to Harvard undergrad and was getting their MBA from UNI. Either UNI is a lot better than you'll give it credit for or Harvard isn't as great as others believe. He said UNI's MBA program was every bit as tough as any other program he looked at and every bit as good.

It's not like we're talking MVFC vs PL in terms of competitiveness...:D

I'm with you here...I understand the value of the name of the institution on the diploma, the connections a school can give you because of alumni base (why I went to Fordham in large part) and all of that jazz...but class is just class. Something tells me the average class at UNI is not thattt much easier than the one at a PL school. Sure, there probably are plenty that are, but in the long run I feel like a class is a class.

I could be way off the mark, but I really don't think individual classes are SO much tougher at a PL school than a solid state school like UNI

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With the MEAC out to the celebration bowl, I would support a good 2nd place team from the PL with enough OOC or a FBS win.

Therein lies the problem. There's always an excuse available to exclude a PL runner-up. The thought that there might be multiple good PL teams that might lose to one another is something that most FCS fans cannot seem to grasp.

[centennial]

Therein lies the problem. There's always an excuse available to exclude a PL runner-up. The thought that there might be multiple good PL teams that might lose to one another is something that most FCS fans cannot seem to grasp.
I am talking about inclusion. Let the PL beat CAA, FBS in OOC. I am sure a majority of fans would support multiple bids at that time. How do you justify getting a bid over 3rd place CAA?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am talking about inclusion. Let the PL beat CAA, FBS in OOC. I am sure a majority of fans would support multiple bids at that time. How do you justify getting a bid over 3rd place CAA?

Personally I don't think the CAA's strength has been the main problem. I think the fact that the Big South has been getting multiple bids has been a bigger issue as Southern teams are quick to try to reclassify teams like Liberty as "Northern" so that the SoCon can get its legacy two at-large bids.

[DFW HOYA]

Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross are the historical "core four" of the PL in football and the conference cannot succeed relative to the rest of FCS if these programs remain collectively down at the same time.

Of course it can. It would take sustained success at Fordham and sustained commitment at Georgetown. Put those two at the top of the list and the PL would do just fine. (Not that it's likely, but it's certainly possible.)

[2ram]

the league really needs at least 1 more year to see the full effect of scholarships. the top 2-3 teams of the league should be able to go toe-to-toe with CAA teams.

but to be as good or better than the CAA as a league would, at the very least, require 5th year seniors.

either way, i'm happy to see the league moving in the right direction, and can only hope that g-town will one day follow suit.

[ngineer]

the league really needs at least 1 more year to see the full effect of scholarships. the top 2-3 teams of the league should be able to go toe-to-toe with CAA teams.

but to be as good or better than the CAA as a league would, at the very least, require 5th year seniors.

either way, i'm happy to see the league moving in the right direction, and can only hope that g-town will one day follow suit.

Yes, that will be the remaining and signigicant distinction. We will get our share of victories, but overall it will still be uphill against such conferences. The grade just won't be as steep.

[carney2]

Here is what I'm hearing:

For the past 15 years the Patriot League apologists were saying "Give us football scholarships and we will be able to play with anyone."

Now we see that we're getting our butts handed to us on a regular basis by the big kids, so it's

"If we could redshirt we could play with anyone."

So where do we go if this one fails?

[2ram]

Here is what I'm hearing:

For the past 15 years the Patriot League apologists were saying "Give us football scholarships and we will be able to play with anyone."

Now we see that we're getting our butts handed to us on a regular basis by the big kids, so it's

"If we could redshirt we could play with anyone."

So where do we go if this one fails?

here's what you misread.

fordham can play with anyone right now. the rest of the league will be able to in another year or 2.

but to be the best, the league would need to follow best practices.

[Gater]

Other than Fordham and Georgetown, the teams have had one season with 15 scholarships and one with 30 scholarships. I'm not sure why you would expect much more from the Patriot League than what you see from NEC teams with 40 scholarships--and upperclassmen getting them. It's still 19 year old lineman going up against 22 year olds in a lot of cases and inexperience vs. experience. Plus, Bucknell, Lafayette and Colgate all had starting QB's missing half of the games. Nebrich was dinged the entire year. A lot of young guys you expecting a lot from and a lot of starting QB's out. That's a tough combination.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

here's what you misread.

fordham can play with anyone right now. the rest of the league will be able to in another year or 2.

but to be the best, the league would need to follow best practices.

Anyone outside of the Top 10 or so teams I agree with. Being outscored by a combined 94-24 against the top of the CAA (50-6 and 44-19) is not playing with anyone. Fordham still has not exceeded a level beyond where they were under Clawson imo. Overall, with a great coach and full compliment of scholarships Fordham is still not where the best team in the league need to be.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Other than Fordham and Georgetown, the teams have had one season with 15 scholarships and one with 30 scholarships. I'm not sure why you would expect much more from the Patriot League than what you see from NEC teams with 40 scholarships--and upperclassmen getting them. It's still 19 year old lineman going up against 22 year olds in a lot of cases and inexperience vs. experience. Plus, Bucknell, Lafayette and Colgate all had starting QB's missing half of the games. Nebrich was dinged the entire year. A lot of young guys you expecting a lot from and a lot of starting QB's out. That's a tough combination.

What made some of those non-scholarship PL teams so good 10+ years ago? Coaching? Bending the rules? FCS overall was deeper then imo. Heck, in the last 5 years Lehigh had a Top 5/6 non-scholarship team. I don't get the excuses. Something isn't adding up....

[centennial]

What made some of those non-scholarship PL teams so good 10+ years ago? Coaching? Bending the rules? FCS overall was deeper then imo. Heck, in the last 5 years Lehigh had a Top 5/6 non-scholarship team. I don't get the excuses. Something isn't adding up....
Anything to substantiate that the FCS is weaker? I think the level of football both in the FCS and FBS has gone up, however my opinion is subjective.

[2ram]

Anyone outside of the Top 10 or so teams I agree with. Being outscored by a combined 94-24 against the top of the CAA (50-6 and 44-19) is not playing with anyone. Fordham still has not exceeded a level beyond where they were under Clawson imo. Overall, with a great coach and full compliment of scholarships Fordham is still not where the best team in the league need to be.

i realize this is an excuse, but the only reason that was the case was because our all-american QB was hobbled the whole season with a knee injury. few teams are able to compete well without their #1 player in the games most important position... idk.

this year we have some depth @ QB. we'll see.

[Bill]

What made some of those non-scholarship PL teams so good 10+ years ago? Coaching? Bending the rules? FCS overall was deeper then imo. Heck, in the last 5 years Lehigh had a Top 5/6 non-scholarship team. I don't get the excuses. Something isn't adding up....

Not sure if I can actually justify this, but my hunch is the evolution of the NEC has a lot to do with it. For the most part, the two leagues don't compete for students, but once the NEC started giving $$ out, I would venture to say that some of the kids who used to end up at a Lehigh saw a D1 scholarship offer and jumped at the chance.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When a CAA team beats a PL team, the meme is that the CAA is better than the PL. When a PL team beats a CAA team, the meme suddenly becomes "um...er... well, ten-time FCS playoff participant UNH is in rebuilding mode... that's not a quality win over a CAA team..." etc. So much of this is perception and it will sadly and incorrectly continue until a PL team gives such a butt-stomping to a CAA team, preferably a nationally-ranked CAA team, that the meme generator won't possibly have any excuses as to why that CAA team was so defective that they actually lost to a PL school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not sure if I can actually justify this, but my hunch is the evolution of the NEC has a lot to do with it. For the most part, the two leagues don't compete for students, but once the NEC started giving $$ out, I would venture to say that some of the kids who used to end up at a Lehigh saw a D1 scholarship offer and jumped at the chance.

Agreed. The prevalence of scholarship money, the overall rising profile of FCS football in general means that it would have been foolhardy to stand still and watch everybody pass you.

[Model Citizen]

What made some of those non-scholarship PL teams so good 10+ years ago? Coaching? Bending the rules? FCS overall was deeper then imo. Heck, in the last 5 years Lehigh had a Top 5/6 non-scholarship team. I don't get the excuses. Something isn't adding up....

They were never non-scholarship. Scholarships were limited to player need.

Non-scholarship programs don't have special need-based aid for football players.

[bison137]

They were never non-scholarship. Scholarships were limited to player need.

Non-scholarship programs don't have special need-based aid for football players.



That's a matter of semantics - but in any case that sort of need-based aid made it harder to be competitive. First, it eliminated many players from the recruiting pool entirely. Also it meant that most potential recruits couldn't get a 100% ride. And it required parents to fill out FAFSA and send in lots of personal information and paperwork.

[Model Citizen]

That's a matter of semantics - but in any case that sort of need-based aid made it harder to be competitive. First, it eliminated many players from the recruiting pool entirely. Also it meant that most potential recruits couldn't get a 100% ride. And it required parents to fill out FAFSA and send in lots of personal information and paperwork.

What's harder to work with is the sort of need-based aid that is available to all students, regardless of whether they are athletes. And that's the only kind the Pioneer allows.

A lot of PFL schools don't offer much need-based aid. That means someone's taking out a student loan.

[bison137]

What's harder to work with is the sort of need-based aid that is available to all students, regardless of whether they are athletes. And that's the only kind the Pioneer allows.




I don't see where anyone is disputing that anywhere in this thread.

[RichH2]

Not sure if I can actually justify this, but my hunch is the evolution of the NEC has a lot to do with it. For the most part, the two leagues don't compete for students, but once the NEC started giving $$ out, I would venture to say that some of the kids who used to end up at a Lehigh saw a D1 scholarship offer and jumped at the chance.
Yes,when combined with the expansion of Ivy grants put a large dent in pool of recruits. A further not insubstantial change was the relatively sharp rise in admission standards across the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes,when combined with the expansion of Ivy grants put a large dent in pool of recruits. A further not insubstantial change was the relatively sharp rise in admission standards across the PL.

Sharp rise? Not aware of any.


What's harder to work with is the sort of need-based aid that is available to all students, regardless of whether they are athletes. And that's the only kind the Pioneer allows.

Not entirely correct. Pioneer allows merit-based grants if available to all students. Each of the 11 PFL schools can offer such merit (albeit non-athletic) aid to athletes.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Anything to substantiate that the FCS is weaker? I think the level of football both in the FCS and FBS has gone up, however my opinion is subjective.

16 team playoff field. FCS in the Northeast was definitely more competitive imo. Delaware and UMass were powers who had national respect. Hofstra had some really good teams and Northeastern won the A10 in the 2002 before both programs folded.

[Model Citizen]

What's harder to work with is the sort of need-based aid that is available to all students, regardless of whether they are athletes. And that's the only kind the Pioneer allows.



Not entirely correct. Pioneer allows merit-based grants if available to all students. Each of the 11 PFL schools can offer such merit (albeit non-athletic) aid to athletes.

In fact, it's the only kind of "need-based" aid the Pioneer allows. Of course there's also merit aid for top students...if, as you said, it is not restricted to athletes.

[Engineer86]

One of the unfortunate consequences of playoff expansion may have made the PL a one-bid league. With the autobid at the NEC and 3-4 solid bids from the CAA, the committee may not be so quick to add another at-large from the East at the expense of other conferences.

Winning in the non-conference will help. Wins over Ivy teams may not, at least not anymore.

I disagree. If the PL won a majority of games versus the CAA, the share of multiple bids changes. Unfortunately that is still not likely this year.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The PL also needs to bid enough to earn home playoff games. Anyone who's followed FCS football for some time knows how hard it is to win on the road in the playoffs. Especially for multiple games.

Colgate losing out to Wagner should NEVER happen......

[Go...gate]

The PL also needs to bid enough to earn home playoff games. Anyone who's followed FCS football for some time knows how hard it is to win on the road in the playoffs. Especially for multiple games.

Colgate losing out to Wagner should NEVER happen......

Yes. That was a travesty and a black eye on our athletic administration. Hopefully it will never recur.