Ivy League Non-Conference Schedules, 2015-2017

[DFW HOYA]

Posted at the Ivy League web site:

Brown's three non-conference opponents from 2015-17 will be Bryant, URI, and Stetson.
Columbia has added Georgetown to go along with Fordham, with Wagner in 2015 and Marist in '16 and '17.
Cornell has Bucknell and Colgate each year, with Sacred Heart in '15 and '16 and Delaware in 2017
Dartmouth has Georgetown, Sacred Heart, and Central Connecticut in 2015, with UNH in '16 and the rest still TBA.
Harvard has secured multi-year deals with Georgetown, Lafayette, and URI.
Penn has Lehigh, Fordham, and a third TBA after Villanova rolls off in 2015.
Princeton has a rotation which variously includes two each with Lafayette, Lehigh and Georgetown, plus Colgate in '15 and San Diego in '17
Yale: Two each with Colgate and Lehigh, plus Maine ('15), and Fordham ('16), one TBA.

http://static.psbin.com/4/a/vjio6fzftmifzg/14fbguide-Intro.pdf

[bonarae]

Oh my. Harvard has guaranteed OOC wins for the next three years, because Georgetown and URI are cellar-dwellers in their respective conferences and won't probably change for the next few years. Definitely a step down from years before.

Yale, however, has the best quality of OOC opponents in the Ivies for the next three years because of the presence of Maine and Fordham. Cornell will be battle-tested as well because of Sacred Heart and Delaware, though the Pioneers aren't there yet. Columbia-Fordham may become a inter-borough FCS rivalry, though Columbia-Wagner may be more appropriate.

[Sader87]

I think it's safe to say that the Ivies are "p*ssying out".....sad....they are only going to be more irrelevant going forward.

[bonarae]

I think it's safe to say that the Ivies are "p*ssying out".....sad....they are only going to be more irrelevant going forward.

Yes, that has been the case for a few years now. xsmhx xnonono2x That's why I am studying my options for 2015 - whether to support two FCS teams that year or to fully support a scholly FCS team that is restarting that year (ETSU) or to become an "FCS generalist"... xchinscratchx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

So Penn is finally going to play Lehigh again? By the time it happens a decade plus will have passed....

[RichH2]

I treasure our series with Harvard & Princeton and the return of Penn( Lord how I hate them). It is sad to witness the agonizing devolution of Ivy football into total irrelevance. The tragedy is not due to lack of talent or funding but simply to the institutional arrogance of Harvard and Yale abetted by the academics assumption that the Ivies ar relevant simply because the Ivies. Puzzling how a group of schools that pride themselvrs in striving to be the best as possible in academics and all other sports seek only stagnation and irrelevance in football

[bonarae]

It is sad to witness the agonizing devolution of Ivy football into total irrelevance. The tragedy is not due to lack of talent or funding but simply to the institutional arrogance of Harvard and Yale abetted by the academics assumption that the Ivies ar relevant simply because the Ivies. Puzzling how a group of schools that pride themselvrs in striving to be the best as possible in academics and all other sports seek only stagnation and irrelevance in football

Unfortunately, for me, that is unacceptable. That's why I am planning to switch loyalties to ETSU or to become an "FCS generalist" by 2015.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So much for those idle threats about pushing the PL schools off the schedule once they have scholarships.

Unless your school's colors are purple, though it's hard not to see some of those TBA's become Holy Cross (for example, Dartmouth).

[Green26]

I treasure our series with Harvard & Princeton and the return of Penn( Lord how I hate them). It is sad to witness the agonizing devolution of Ivy football into total irrelevance. The tragedy is not due to lack of talent or funding but simply to the institutional arrogance of Harvard and Yale abetted by the academics assumption that the Ivies ar relevant simply because the Ivies. Puzzling how a group of schools that pride themselvrs in striving to be the best as possible in academics and all other sports seek only stagnation and irrelevance in football

I agree with you, and I'm a Dartmouth alum.

[Ivytalk]

I remember the early 80s when Harvard played Army and W&M. URI makes zero sense. Georgetown is a cupcake. I may withhold poll votes for all Ivy teams as a result.

[bonarae]

I remember the early 80s when Harvard played Army and W&M. URI makes zero sense. Georgetown is a cupcake. I may withhold poll votes for all Ivy teams as a result.

OK, I agree with your stand. Cakewalk indeed for the Crimson in the coming years. xsmhx

[bulldog10jw]

Posted at the Ivy League web site:


Yale: Two each with Colgate and Lehigh, plus Maine ('15), and Fordham ('16), one TBA.

http://static.psbin.com/4/a/vjio6fzftmifzg/14fbguide-Intro.pdf

Actually, Yale has Lehigh on the schedule all three years

[Go Green]

I think it's safe to say that Harvard is "p*ssying out".....sad.....

Fixed that for you.

:)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Man, Harvard is so pissed that Lehigh, Fordham, Lafayette and Colgate are offering scholarships, they're going to react by dropping Holy Cross... in favor of URI!

xlolx

[crusader11]

Unfortunately, for me, that is unacceptable. That's why I am planning to switch loyalties to ETSU or to become an "FCS generalist" by 2015.

We'd be happy to have you in Worcester.

[RichH2]

We'd be happy to have you in Worcester.
:) Little doubt but that all of us would welcome bonarae into our folds.

[Ivytalk]

Man, Harvard is so pissed that Lehigh, Fordham, Lafayette and Colgate are offering scholarships, they're going to react by dropping Holy Cross... in favor of URI!

xlolx

Maybe Murph should just hang it up now. What's next? Savannah State?

[Ivytalk]

:) Little doubt but that all of us would welcome bonarae into our folds.

If bonarae jumps ship, nobody else will carry the flag for Harvard on this board regarding the "hundred day" threads and otherwise. My level of insouciance about Harvard football is approaching that of the current crop of resume-driven undergrads.

[RichH2]

If bonarae jumps ship, nobody else will carry the flag for Harvard on this board regarding the "hundred day" threads and otherwise. My level of insouciance about Harvard football is approaching that of the current crop of resume-driven undergrads.
I'm sure we could make room for both of you. Perhaps an honorary degree :)

[Go Green]

Maybe Murph should just hang it up now. What's next? Savannah State?

The College of Faith!

http://www.cofchar.org/#!football/cqrl

[DFW HOYA]

I remember the early 80s when Harvard played Army and W&M. URI makes zero sense. Georgetown is a cupcake.

Going forward, Georgetown can be much, much better. It gets better if Sgarlata can get the recruiting stabilized and get some administrative buy-in on items Kelly could not.

If Georgetown commits to an upper-tier Ivy budget and makes progress in terms of recruiting, retention, and results, the Hoyas can be more than competitive with the H-Col-P trio on its future schedules, and lock up a long term deal with Dartmouth as well.

The Ivy isn't trading Holy Cross for Georgetown merely for wins, but that the Ivy wants teams they can compete with. Holy Cross-Dartmouth is about to become UNH-Dartmouth in their eyes. Columbia is going to find out the hard way that the Fordham of 2014 isn't the Fordham they used to know.

That, and Georgetown needs some stability as they grow further from the PL's new "CAA Lite" model.

[Go Green]

The Ivy isn't trading Holy Cross for Georgetown merely for wins, but that the Ivy wants teams they can compete with. Holy Cross-Dartmouth is about to become UNH-Dartmouth in their eyes.
.

Again, let's not say"The Ivy" when you really mean "Harvard."

Harvard is really the only one who is noticeably scheduling down. Arguably, Princeton and Brown released some weaker schedules. But the others are ranging from either status quo (Dartmouth, Penn) to arguably better (Cornell and Yale).

Could that change? Sure. But let's hold off a bit before we accept that Georgetown will be a de facto Ivy football member. (Although I certainly wouldn't mind it if that happened).

[RichH2]

Going forward, Georgetown can be much, much better. It gets better if Sgarlata can get the recruiting stabilized and get some administrative buy-in on items Kelly could not.

If Georgetown commits to an upper-tier Ivy budget and makes progress in terms of recruiting, retention, and results, the Hoyas can be more than competitive with the H-Col-P trio on its future schedules, and lock up a long term deal with Dartmouth as well.

The Ivy isn't trading Holy Cross for Georgetown merely for wins, but that the Ivy wants teams they can compete with. Holy Cross-Dartmouth is about to become UNH-Dartmouth in their eyes. Columbia is going to find out the hard way that the Fordham of 2014 isn't the Fordham they used to know.

That, and Georgetown needs some stability as they grow further from the PL's new "CAA Lite" model.
Perhaps DFW, but CAA Lite description may be glib but hardly accurate. PL niche is its own between CAA and IL. Better academics than CAA and better football than IL,once 60 cap reached by all. For GU,whether IL of PL,the issue remains the same $$$!. If GU finds the funds GU could be competitive in either league.

[DFW HOYA]

Perhaps DFW, but CAA Lite description may be glib but hardly accurate. PL niche is its own between CAA and IL. Better academics than CAA and better football than IL,once 60 cap reached by all. For GU,whether IL of PL,the issue remains the same $$$!. If GU finds the funds GU could be competitive in either league.

At $1.7 M, it's not competitive under either scenario. If Georgetown got to $2.3-$2.5, it suddenly becomes very competitive with the Brown-Cornell-Dartmouth tier below H-Y-P-P. $2.5 million in the Patriot League won't buy much more than repeated 1-5 and 0-6 records. The six PL budgets will all be $5M+ by 2016, even more if the aforementioned cost of attendance grants come into discussion.

[ngineer]

So Penn is finally going to play Lehigh again? By the time it happens a decade plus will have passed....

That's because this is Bagnoli's last year. He broke our contract about 10 years ago when they added Villanova as an annual game. Said he wouldn't play 'nova and Lehigh back to back. Plus is contract gave him bonuses for additional wins beyond 6. Bags retiring after this year.

[Go Green]

That's because this is Bagnoli's last year. He broke our contract about 10 years ago when they added Villanova as an annual game. Said he wouldn't play 'nova and Lehigh back to back. Plus is contract gave him bonuses for additional wins beyond 6. Bags retiring after this year.

Penn's side of the story is that they (Penn) canceled a game with Lehigh to play a game in California, and Lehigh got hurt feelings and refused to reschedule the series in later years.


In any event, good to hear that the Penn-Lehigh series is back on. Should be good for both schools.

[RichH2]

That's because this is Bagnoli's last year. He broke our contract about 10 years ago when they added Villanova as an annual game. Said he wouldn't play 'nova and Lehigh back to back. Plus is contract gave him bonuses for additional wins beyond 6. Bags retiring after this year.
Absolutely.No wayJoe would Joe schedule Penn with him still there.

[RichH2]

Penn's side of the story is that they (Penn) canceled a game with Lehigh to play a game in California, and Lehigh got hurt feelings and refused to reschedule the series in later years.


In any event, good to hear that the Penn-Lehigh series is back on. Should be good for both schools.

Not so much the cancellation but how it was done. Penn announced Cal game before even notifying LU,By then it was too late for LU to get a replacement.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

PHD Conference
---------------
Lehigh
Colgate
Fordham
Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Penn
Lafayette

Doctorate Conference
---------------------
Dartmouth
Holy Cross
Brown
Bucknell
Georgetown
Columbia
Cornell

You have to admit, this looks pretty compelling. As long as the FCS playoffs are in play...

In that PHD conference, one at-large bid guaranteed per year on top of any autobid.

[bostonspider]

Perhaps DFW, but CAA Lite description may be glib but hardly accurate. PL niche is its own between CAA and IL. Better academics than CAA and better football than IL,once 60 cap reached by all. For GU,whether IL of PL,the issue remains the same $$$!. If GU finds the funds GU could be competitive in either league.


Hey Richmond, Villanova and W&M are not so sure about the "better academics" part.. :)

[PAllen]

Brown - Good local winnable games for a team that traditionally struggles. That said, a little more variety might be nice.
Columbia - A great slate for a program that has always struggled.
Cornell - A near perfect slate for the Big Red
Dartmouth - UNH is good, then um, well let's just hold out hope for a great TBA.
Harvard - Seriously guys?
Penn - about #$%@ time. LU and FU are great pickups, I wonder if Bucknell and Lafayette are in the running for TBA.
Princeton - A pretty decent slate here.
Yale - Could be the toughest of the bunch. HC or Army would be great TBAs

From a Lehigh perspective, I'm thrilled to see Penn back on the slate. Glad Princeton will still be there. I'm good with Yale, but will miss Harvard. Now let's just hope that Joe is filling the extra open dates with something more enticing than another NEC school.

[Go...gate]

Disappointing to find the Ivies' reduced presence on the Colgate schedule. Some very old and long-running series have gradually come to an end, and those that remained are further dwindling due to the Ivies' abhorrence of football scholarships.

[RichH2]

Given Ivies proclivity to self validation ,OOC are just practice games. The only games that count are their own in league. Ultimate goal is to be supreme in a tiny pond.

[bonarae]

Given Ivies proclivity to self validation ,OOC are just practice games. The only games that count are their own in league. Ultimate goal is to be supreme in a tiny pond.

One step closer to a NESCAC-type schedule... xsmhx

[Green26]

I see that the Dartmouth and Delaware presidents were the only 2 opposing votes in the NCAA Big 5 governance vote today.

Mike Slive, the SEC commissioner, is a Dartmouth grad. About 1962. Played baseball. Lawyer. Good guy. We were in the same fraternity and secret senior society, altho he was a bit ahead of me. Sorry, can't say which one, as it's secret. Ha.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth - UNH is good, then um, well let's just hold out hope for a great TBA.

.

According to the Dartmouth athletics website, a lot of those "TBAs" on the Dartmouth future schedules are games against Holy Cross. It appears that Dartmouth wants to continue that series.

[Bogus Megapardus]

A collectively introspective thread on the Fordham Board concerning Columbia vs. Fordham -

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,8144.0.html (http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,8144.0.html)

[Go Green]

A collectively introspective thread on the Fordham Board concerning Columbia vs. Fordham -

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,8144.0.html (http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,8144.0.html)

I'll make sure that Jake (runs the Columbia football blog) sees this.

[Pard4Life]

See, what was all of that Ivy is dumping the PL panic? If anything, the Ivy schedules are more of the same, except for Harvard... the only making good on their threats. During our last game with Penn, the drama was that Bagnoli was afraid to schedule schollie teams, even though Nova was a yearly game... going with Fordham and Lehigh is not exactly a step down from LC. They could have just been honest and said "we don't like Lafayette because they've beaten us five of seven games."

And yes, Harvard does have a cupcake schedule... we still won't beat them.

But Harvard is not exactly a cupcake... they win recruiting battles with FBS teams... and not MAC teams... Stanford and Boise State for example. Their fear of scheduling schollie teams is irrational.

[hebmskebm]

I didn't think the Ivies would immediately shut out PL opponents after the scholarship announcement. Now if the PL starts winning 75% of their games against the Ivies once the schollies are fully integrated into their programs, they may rethink things.

[carney2]

See, what was all of that Ivy is dumping the PL panic? If anything, the Ivy schedules are more of the same

Really? Looking at it only from the viewpoint of our alma mater, P4L, things have changed. Lafayette used to schedule at least three Ivy League opponents every year and sometimes four. In the decade 2004-2013 the Pards played an average of 3.2 Ivys every year. Granted, the latest version of Future Schedules is a year old, and has some TBAs, particularly in 2016, but we have

2014 - Harvard
2015 - Princeton and Harvard
2016 - Princeton

I won't comment on whether it's good or bad, but it sure looks like one side or the other has decided to change the relationship. And the scheduling of the here and now has been drifting toward the NEC which, in my opinion, is a sign of desperation.

[Brad82]

When does Harvard play URI?

[Sader87]

When does Harvard play URI?

2015, 2016 and 2017......1st game of the year for the Johnnies each year I believe

[Gordon Shumway]

Dartmouth - UNH is good, then um, well let's just hold out hope for a great TBA.


That UNH game in '16 is pretty meaningless as an indicator of any future scheduling philosophy for Dartmouth. That is the last game of an old contract that was suspended at Dartmouth's request back in '09. AFAIK they have shown no interest in continuing the series at some/any point. It is shame not to have this in-state series, but in reality, it has never been a competitive series except for a brief period in the 70's. Prior to that UNH was fortunate if they could even score in a game against Dartmouth, and then I-AA happened in 1978, and UNH has not lost a game with Dartmouth since.

[Go Green]

That UNH game in '16 is pretty meaningless as an indicator of any future scheduling philosophy for Dartmouth. That is the last game of an old contract that was suspended at Dartmouth's request back in '09. AFAIK they have shown no interest in continuing the series at some/any point. It is shame not to have this in-state series, but in reality, it has never been a competitive series except for a brief period in the 70's. Prior to that UNH was fortunate if they could even score in a game against Dartmouth, and then I-AA happened in 1978, and UNH has not lost a game with Dartmouth since.

We did tie you in 1990. And we would have won in 1992 if it hadn't started pouring in the fourth quarter and Fiedler couldn't throw the ball. :)

My own personal guess is that Dartmouth going forward will play either UNH or Holy Cross, but not both. For whatever reason, we have agreed to a bunch of games against HC through 2019. Even Dartmouth's Ivy championship teams in the early 1990s went 0-3-1 against UNH and scholarship HC. I don't mind playing "up" for one of three OOC games, but playing "up" for two of three OOC games seems pointless if playoffs aren't at stake.

But we will see what happens. Maybe Dartmouth wins the remaining scheduled games against UNH and we agree to continue the series….

[Go...gate]

One step closer to a NESCAC-type schedule... xsmhx

Yes. That appears to be what the Ivy Presidents want.

[Go Green]

Yes. That appears to be what the Ivy Presidents want.

If they wanted it, they would have done it in 1954 when the league was first formed.

I think we're safe on the OOC games. Or if we do go NESCAC-style, it will be because we invited more teams to join the league and still want to cap games at 10 a season.

[DFW HOYA]

One step closer to a NESCAC-type schedule... xsmhx

A NESCAC schedule is not about quality of competition but scope of competition--those schools play no games out of conference and unless the Ivy is willing to a) expand or b) go to a seven game season, that's not happening.

As to quality of schedule, I do think there is a sense that the Ivy does not want to schedule itself into noncompetitive arrangements. There's a reason Army is playing Buffalo and not Syracuse, or Ball State instead of Ohio State. They see the 60-scholarship Patriot League, Georgetown excepted, as being a noncompetitive arrangement in a few years. Does anyone want to predict the Fordham-Columbia score over the next few years?

Getting pounded every year by these schools also raises uncomfortable questions by the alumni, along the lines of "so why can't we offer scholarships like they do?", that the IL presidents would rather not answer.

Is it a case that the Ivy presidents have their blinders on? Yes. But the Patriot presidents do too, beginning with the false assumption that Georgetown was bluffing and would come around just like Lafayette and Bucknell did. Instead of a measured scholarship structure that would have improved competitiveness and maintained good relations with the Ivy, they chose the "full steam ahead" option which was bound to cause pushback from Ivy schools. Which is why, as the major conferences increasingly headed to scheduling only amongst themselves, more of the PL non-conference schedules will tie in with CAA schools than Ivy schools.

Or perhaps the Ivy will assemble the next group of six or seven schools from which to establish an alliance with, as they once did with Likins and Brooks.

[aceinthehole]

Really? Looking at it only from the viewpoint of our alma mater, P4L, things have changed. Lafayette used to schedule at least three Ivy League opponents every year and sometimes four. In the decade 2004-2013 the Pards played an average of 3.2 Ivys every year. Granted, the latest version of Future Schedules is a year old, and has some TBAs, particularly in 2016, but we have

2014 - Harvard
2015 - Princeton and Harvard
2016 - Princeton

I won't comment on whether it's good or bad, but it sure looks like one side or the other has decided to change the relationship. And the scheduling of the here and now has been drifting toward the NEC which, in my opinion, is a sign of desperation.

Why is it desperation?

In recent years both the PL and Ivy have been scheduling home/home deals with NEC schools. Clearly, both league have an interest in scheduling NEC schools that isn't an act of "desperation"

Colgate-Albany
Fordham-Albany
Fordham-Bryant
Holy Cross-Bryant
Lehigh-CCSU
Holy Cross-CCSU
Bucknell-Duquesne
Colgate-Monmouth
Georgetown-Monmouth
Lehigh-Monmouth
Bucknell-Robert Morris
Lafayette-Robert Morris
Bucknell-Scared Heart
Lafayette-Sacred Heart
Fordham-St. Francis
Holy Cross-Wagner
Georgetown-Wagner

Brown-Albany
Brown-Bryant
Dartmouth-CCSU
Penn-CCSU
Cornell-Monmouth
Cornell-Sacred Heart
Dartmouth-Sacred Heart
Cornell-Wagner
Columbia-Wagner

[aceinthehole]

As to quality of schedule, I do think there is a sense that the Ivy does not want to schedule itself into noncompetitive arrangements. There's a reason Army is playing Buffalo and not Syracuse, or Ball State instead of Ohio State. They see the 60-scholarship Patriot League, Georgetown excepted, as being a noncompetitive arrangement in a few years. Does anyone want to predict the Fordham-Columbia score over the next few years?

Getting pounded every year by these schools also raises uncomfortable questions by the alumni, along the lines of "so why can't we offer scholarships like they do?", that the IL presidents would rather not answer.

Is it a case that the Ivy presidents have their blinders on? Yes.

Well, they are scheduling the NEC with just 40 scholarships and are finding they are on the wrong side of that ledger as well. Over the last 5 years, they NEC has a winning record (7-4) against Ivy League opponents.

2009
W - CCSU at Columbia

2010
W - Albany at Yale
L - Sacred Heart at Dartmouth
W - Wagner vs. Cornell

2011
W - Albany at Columbia
W - Sacred Heart vs. Dartmouth
L - Wagner at Cornell
W - Sacred Heart at Columbia

2012
W – Sacred Heart at Dartmouth
L - Monmouth at Cornell

2013
L – Bryant vs. Brown

[Lehigh'98]

It's hard to lump all the Ivies together, there's an enormous gap between the top and bottom of the league. The tops teams will continue to be able to compete, bottom zero chance. Doubt it will make a difference in long run OOC though.

[aceinthehole]

It's hard to lump all the Ivies together, there's an enormous gap between the top and bottom of the league. The tops teams will continue to be able to compete, bottom zero chance. Doubt it will make a difference in long run OOC though.

And I hear some of the Patriot/Ivy apologist already. "Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, and Brown just aren't representative of the best they Ivy has to offer ... yada yadda yadda"

So I leave you with these H-Y-P scheduling notes:

HARVARD - With the exception of 4 home games vs. Northeastern from 2001-04, Harvard hasn't scheduled an opponent outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer since 1993 (at William & Mary).

YALE – Has been the most successful in this regard, with 3 wins outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer since 1994 (UConn, Towson, and Cal Poly SLO).

PRINCETON – Tigers have not won a game outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer since 1980 (vs. Maine).

PENN - Penn's last win outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer/MAAC was in 1986 (at Navy).

[aceinthehole]

I'm not trying to pick on Harvard, but they are often regarded as the standard bearer by Patriot League fans. Just look at the who they have played outside of the Patriot League over the last 30 years:

Army (0-3)
Boston U. (0-1)
UMass (1-2)
Northeastern (5-1)
San Diego (2-0)
William & Mary (0-4)

The fact is the Crimson have a losing non-conference record (8-11) outside of the Patriot, and have beat just 3 teams (UMass, Northeastern, and San Diego) in the last 3 decades!

[aceinthehole]

In that same period (1984-2013), mighty Princeton has played just 7 different non-conference opponents outside of the Patriot League.

Citadel (0-2)
Davidson (1-0)
Hampton (0-2)
Navy (0-1)
Northwestern (0-1)
San Diego (2-0)
William & Mary (0-2-1)

The Tigers are just 3-8-1 vs. non-Patriot schools in the last 30 seasons, and have only beaten 2 non-scholly Pioneer teams.

[RichH2]

Viewing ace's research,the current mania over Ivies' moving away from PL a bit overblown. Other than leaving IL with fewer OOC options,,ove seems consistent with their policy over the last 3 of4 decades.

[Go Green]

And I hear some of the Patriot/Ivy apologist already. "Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, and Brown just aren't representative of the best they Ivy has to offer ... yada yadda yadda"



Dartmouth went 5-2 in the league last year.

If you don't want to include us as among the top teams, ok fine. But Yale should be mentioned before us.

[aceinthehole]

Viewing ace's research,the current mania over Ivies' moving away from PL a bit overblown. Other than leaving IL with fewer OOC options,,ove seems consistent with their policy over the last 3 of4 decades.

Yep. Brown has really opened up their scheduling, and NEC teams are appearing more often, but there are still very few non-Patriot teams on the Ivy schedule in the next 3 years.

Brown – Bryant (3), Rhode Island (3), Stetson (2)
Dartmouth – Sacred Heart, CCSU, New Hampshire
Cornell – Sacred Heart (2), Delaware
Columbia – Wagner, Marist (2)
Penn – Villanova, CCSU (2)
Harvard – Rhode Island (3)
Yale – Maine
Princeton – San Diego

Of 72 available non-conference games, so far just 25 (35%) have been filled by non-Patriot League schools.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Without looking it up, I don't believe Lehigh has played Brown and Dartmouth this century. I don't recall ever seeing Brown play in my 25+ years of Hawk watching. The '91 Lehigh-Dartmouth game was a memorable one.

Princeton has emerged as a great OOC rival over the last 25 years. The proximity between the two schools and the Princeton's stadium make this a great game each year.

Penn, Harvard and Yale all have the same appeal imo. Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia and Cornell are nice every few years...

[Sader87]

Yes and no.....I think it has affected Holy Cross future schedules more than some other PL schools. Since the mid-70s HC has played 3 or 4 Ivies most years more often not. The 2015 and 2016 skeds will probably only have one (Brown in 2015 and Dartmouth in 2016).

The ongoing debate at HC is one of which: should we play at the "Ivy-model" i.e. non-schollie or should we play with schollies and play the UNH's, Villanova's and an occasional FBS school going forward?

The non-schollie PL tilted the balance toward the Ivies, whereas HC, when it was schollie in the 1980s and early 1990s, was more often than not beating the Ivies regularly.....is there a "happy medium?"

[DFW HOYA]

The ongoing debate at HC is one of which: should we play at the "Ivy-model" i.e. non-schollie or should we play with schollies and play the UNH's, Villanova's and an occasional FBS school going forward?

That question was answered when six PL schools committed to 60 scholarships without further debate, which is why there's a lot more Delawares than Dartmouths on these schools' schedules going forward.

[Sader87]

I agree, the debate is basically ovah (with some caveats to the Ivies: the AI, no red-shirting etc).

As I posted previously though, the pendulum (imo) swung too far ovah to the Ivies during the non-schollie PL era. Holy Cross really couldn't recruit well (particularly against the Ivies) during the non-schollie era. I think a scholarship HC is basically on or near the same "recruiting plane" as an H-Y-P now....neither side should have too much of an advantage now.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

From 1998 to 2005 Lehigh went 20-2 against the Ivies. The only team to beat them was Penn, '02 and '03, during that stretch. By '03 Lehigh was down to 2 games a year against the Ancient 8. By then I think the IL teams were tired of losing.

Lehigh is currently riding a 4 year, 8 game winning streak over the Ivies...

[Sader87]

I've often thought the 1983 Columbia game at Fitton: a 77-28 W for the Saders brought about the PL itself. We have only ourselves to blame :p

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I've often thought the 1983 Columbia game at Fitton: a 77-28 W for the Saders brought about the PL itself. We have only ourselves to blame :p

In '99 Lehigh outscored their 3 IL opponents (Princeton, Columbia and Dartmouth) 124-27. That includes a 63-13 rout of the Lions...

HC was killing teams in the 80's. They dominated their Yankee foes too....

[Ivytalk]

From 1998 to 2005 Lehigh went 20-2 against the Ivies. The only team to beat them was Penn, '02 and '03, during that stretch. By '03 Lehigh was down to 2 games a year against the Ancient 8. By then I think the IL teams were tired of losing.

Lehigh is currently riding a 4 year, 8 game winning streak over the Ivies...

Yeah, but Harvard beat Lehigh in 3 of the last 5 games played in the series, which stands at 8-8 all time. Made no sense for the Crimson to drop Lehigh IMHO.

[Lehigh'98]

Agreed, always loved the Harvard game, very competitive. Some years was like a quasi PL-Ivy Championship.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yeah, but Harvard beat Lehigh in 3 of the last 5 games played in the series, which stands at 8-8 all time. Made no sense for the Crimson to drop Lehigh IMHO.

Lehigh struggled those first few years under Coen while Harvard was cruising in the IL. All those games were extremely close iirc. Harvard's only two losses in '07 were to HC and Lehigh.

Lehigh easily defeated a good Clifton Dawson led Harvard team in Cambridge one year.

With that said, these two should play every 2-3 years. Harvard is as steady as they come in FCS....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Summary of IL scheduling in the last 25 years.

The IL helped form the Patriot League so that they could have a parallel league of football schools they could crush.

Over a quarter-century, the PL has proven to be the equal of most of the IL for the most part, much to the surprise, I'm sure, of the IL. Today, the IL fears that scholarships will make the games uncompetitive. This is both true (Fordham/Columbia) and false (Georgetown/Yale, Lafayette/Harvard, etc.)

Not wanting to spring for cross-country football trips each season, instead IL teams went to the next regional option, the NEC and Eastern PFL teams, to find squads they could beat, like Marist and Sacred Heart.

Instead, the IL found out that the better NEC squads were doing the same thing against the IL that the PL was doing - beating them much more regularly than they had thought.

As long as the IL is unwilling to travel much to similar-minded but far-flung schools like Davidson, or close academic but scholarship schools like Richmond, they have little choice but to stick to what they've got. Army and Navy ain't dropping down. Rutgers ain't coming back. BU and Northeastern aren't going to be bringing back football that I know of.

[Lehigh'98]

The thing I really don't understand about the Ivies an Gtown is they have obseurd amounts of money to improve their football programs. They compete well in basketball and seem to care, yet football seems to be the ugly step sister no one pays attention to there. Now they seem to be upset the PL is trying to improve. Why not play at least at the top level of FCS? not like they will go broke.

[Go Green]

Summary of IL scheduling in the last 25 years.

The IL helped form the Patriot League so that they could have a parallel league of football schools they could crush.

Over a quarter-century, the PL has proven to be the equal of most of the IL for the most part, much to the surprise, I'm sure, of the IL.

Of course, it's not like the Ivy and PL found each other in 1990. Some Ivy teams v. PL teams matchups go back to the 19th Century.

[RichH2]

True enuf Green. IL just wanted us all grouped together for easier scheduling .:) We grew up. Sorry.

[Sader87]

True enuf Green. IL just wanted us all grouped together for easier scheduling .:) We grew up. Sorry.

To an extent maybe.....in HC's case I think we realized our mistake in going non-schollie.

[RichH2]

Most of PL agreed that if we didn't we would less and less competitive OOC,which neither Gate nor LU would countenance. Rams thankfully moved us faster. Can you imagine a future as Ivy Lite locked into the same scheduling swamp the Ivies have put themselvesin. Ugh.

[Go Green]

We grew up. Sorry.

As did places like Rutgers and Boston College.

If you think they've improved themselves, fine. If not.... the Ivy will always be waiting for you to come home.

:)

[Sader87]

I really think a 60 schollie, AI and no redshirting PL= the $$$ a lot of the Ivies give to kids who play football in the Ancient 8.

It may not be a perfect balance but it's about as close as the two leagues can be imo.

[RichH2]

I really think a 60 schollie, AI and no redshirting PL= the $$$ a lot of the Ivies give to kids who play football in the Ancient 8.

It may not be a perfect balance but it's about as close as the two leagues can be imo.
+1

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Even without schollies, the best PL teams over the last 15 years were better than their Ivy foes 90% of the time imo.

Penn in 2002 and Harvard in 2004 are two squads that I would have liked to seen in the playoffs.

I'm interested to see how this years Princeton team turns out. I had them 12th on my preseason ballot.

[RichH2]

:) Glad we have ayear off from them. Tigers will be very good.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

:) Glad we have ayear off from them. Tigers will be very good.

A JMU, UNH, Princeton start to a season would be absurd. Yale is no picnic but they certainly seem more favorable than Princeton.

[citdog]

I'm interested to see how this years Princeton team turns out. I had them 12th on my preseason ballot.

Which is about 23 spots high.

[Go Green]

Even without schollies, the best PL teams over the last 15 years were better than their Ivy foes 90% of the time imo.



2013 wasn't one of those years.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/brad-wilson/index.ssf/2013/10/lafayette_colleges_talent_gap_versus_ivy_league_fo es_was_all_too_much_on_display_saturday_at_princet .html

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

2013 wasn't one of those years.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/brad-wilson/index.ssf/2013/10/lafayette_colleges_talent_gap_versus_ivy_league_fo es_was_all_too_much_on_display_saturday_at_princet .html

Lehigh beat Princeton and Fordham with Nebrich would have too...

Lafayette was a below average team last year...

[Go Green]

Lehigh beat Princeton and Fordham with Nebrich would have too...

Lafayette was a below average team last year...

I understood you to be saying that the PL champ would beat the Ivy champ 90% of the time. Last year, Lafayette was the PL champ.

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. If you were saying that the PL's best teams beat their Ivy foes (regardless of whether the Ivy team was good or not) 90% of the time... well, that's really not too impressive. Put Harvard/Penn against Georgetown and Bucknell over the years and then the Ivy comes out pretty good as well.

[Lehigh'98]

2013 was an odd yr. PL champ wasn't best team.

[Pard4Life]

Really? Looking at it only from the viewpoint of our alma mater, P4L, things have changed. Lafayette used to schedule at least three Ivy League opponents every year and sometimes four. In the decade 2004-2013 the Pards played an average of 3.2 Ivys every year. Granted, the latest version of Future Schedules is a year old, and has some TBAs, particularly in 2016, but we have

2014 - Harvard
2015 - Princeton and Harvard
2016 - Princeton

I won't comment on whether it's good or bad, but it sure looks like one side or the other has decided to change the relationship. And the scheduling of the here and now has been drifting toward the NEC which, in my opinion, is a sign of desperation.

We changed the relationship... Tavani has long detested playing 4, sometimes 5 Ivies per year. Tanks, others and myself have usually said two Ivies per year is the best course, with a NEC team, and a CAA team, and an "other" i.e. FBS or another FCS team. I think this is the only year with 3, even 2 NECs... but these are scholarship programs, and I have the feeling the administration purposely scheduled NEC teams since we are in a gray zone i.e. not fully schollie. Once we get our full complement, you will see better schedules, like 2016 for instance... Army and Delaware.

[Pard4Life]

:) Glad we have ayear off from them. Tigers will be very good.

Yale won at Cal Poly last year...

[Pard4Life]

In '99 Lehigh outscored their 3 IL opponents (Princeton, Columbia and Dartmouth) 124-27. That includes a 63-13 rout of the Lions...

HC was killing teams in the 80's. They dominated their Yankee foes too....


In 1999, Lehigh scheduled the St. Louis Rams, but the Rams were too scared to play the mighty Mountain Hawks! Gosh golly gee go Lehigh xawesomex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In 1999, Lehigh scheduled the St. Louis Rams, but the Rams were too scared to play the mighty Mountain Hawks! Gosh golly gee go Lehigh xawesomex

You're blowing this out of proportion. It was the Jets. xlolx

[Lehigh'98]

I love how easy it is to get P4L going. All you have to do is mention any of the past 2 decades of LU dominance while we single handedly pushed Laugheyette to the brink of d3 ball. Anyone up for rehashing the 2011 season?

[Pard4Life]

I love how easy it is to get P4L going. All you have to do is mention any of the past 2 decades of LU dominance while we single handedly pushed Laugheyette to the brink of d3 ball. Anyone up for rehashing the 2011 season?

No, because you mention the past to support your notion that Lehigh is the best football program to ever grace God's good Earth. Yeah Lehigh had a great 1998-2002 run. Yeah Lafayette won three national titles. Eh, it's 2014.

[Lehigh'98]

No, because you mention the past to support your notion that Lehigh is the best football program to ever grace God's good Earth. Yeah Lehigh had a great 1998-2002 run. Yeah Lafayette won three national titles. Eh, it's 2014.

I'm not sure who thinks Lehigh is so great. Maybe LFN, but most of us realize we are a competitive team, some yrs more than others, but not a top 5 team yr in and out. Not sure why anytime anyone mentions anything positive about us at all, you are there telling us we suck.

[aceinthehole]

We changed the relationship... Tavani has long detested playing 4, sometimes 5 Ivies per year. Tanks, others and myself have usually said two Ivies per year is the best course, with a NEC team, and a CAA team, and an "other" i.e. FBS or another FCS team. I think this is the only year with 3, even 2 NECs... but these are scholarship programs, and I have the feeling the administration purposely scheduled NEC teams since we are in a gray zone i.e. not fully schollie. Once we get our full complement, you will see better schedules, like 2016 for instance... Army and Delaware.

This makes sense, and yes the landscape has changed a lot over the years.

Previously, NEC teams were brought in by the Patriot League for $$ as a home game. However, the dynamic you now see is now home/home deals. For example, CCSU played at Lehigh in 2001 and Colgate in 2005 without a return game. Then they signed 2-game deals that brought both Lehigh and Holy Cross to New Britain.

Of course Delaware is a better opponent for a PL team than anything in the NEC. But are the Blue Hens willing to play you at your house? UD has scheduledmore NEC teams than Patriot League teams over the years for one simple reason - NEC are willing to cash a check and don't demand a home game. No disrespect, but how is Colgate or Bucknell going to get home games (forget talking about Gtown).

PL teams will have to offer 2 for 1, or have to cash a check to play at major scholarship programs like UD, NDSU, etc. And of course all these FBS games for the PL are on the road.

IMO - The real issue in scheduling is getting home games. The PL needs the Ivy/NEC/Pioneer for home games (and regional road games) more than anything. It is a mtter of balance more than a desire.

[Brad82]

When do Rhode Island and Harvard play ? The game is scheduled,but no place or date?

[Sader87]

I don't outright disagree, but I think HC can (and has) attract(ed) CAA-level teams to Worcester. It's a pretty big venue, in a good area (populous, centrally located in New England etc. etc.) I'm not saying NDSU or EWU are coming to Fitton (or we, there) anytime soon but it wouldn't be logistically impossible.

[Sader87]

When do Rhode Island and Harvard play ? The game is scheduled,but no place or date?

Brad:
http://static.psbin.com/4/a/vjio6fzftmifzg/14fbguide-Intro.pdf

Scroll down for future schedules....surprised that it's a 2 for 1 (for now) for URI.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Q: Why would Harvard schedule URI?

A:




2002
Tim Stowers






3

9

0

0.25000

187

389

-202



2003
Tim Stowers






4

8

0

0.33333

309

381

-72



2004
Tim Stowers






4

7

0

0.36364

265

355

-90



2005
Tim Stowers






4

7

0

0.36364

312

306

6



2006
Tim Stowers






4

7

0

0.36364

214

332

-118



2007
Tim Stowers






3

8

0

0.27273

228

360

-132



2008
Darren Rizzi






3

9

0

0.25000

226

384

-158



2009
Joe Trainer






1

10

0

0.09091

232

406

-174



2010
Joe Trainer






5

6

0

0.45455

217

268

-51



2011
Joe Trainer






3

8

0

0.27273

243

312

-69



2012
Joe Trainer






0

11

0

0.00000

105

432

-327



2013
Joe Trainer






3

9

0

0.25000

159

402

-243

[aceinthehole]

I don't outright disagree, but I think HC can (and has) attract(ed) CAA-level teams to Worcester. It's a pretty big venue, in a good area (populous, centrally located in New England etc. etc.) I'm not saying NDSU or EWU are coming to Fitton (or we, there) anytime soon but it wouldn't be logistically impossible.

Sader - It is not about the facilities, and yes HC and Lehigh could easily drawer a bigger program than they have recently. I think the question is - who is your willing dance partner? Looking at recent history(last 12 years), what programs were willing to play at Worcester? I just don't think the demand/appeal of roadtrip to Fitton is that great for CAA and other full scholly programs outside of NY/New England.

CAA teams have just 3 non-conference dates available. 1 is usually a guaranteed road game at a FBS opponents. Programs like UD and others like JMU want the remaining 2 games at home very year.

The Ivys have a similar issue as CAA teams – just 3 opendates for non-conference games. TheIvy/PL agreements and history usually fill the bill and the addition of the NEChas helped. I just can't imagine seeingany of the Ancient Eight take a paycheck for a road game at James Madison or something like that

For now, the Patriot and NEC (both with 7 teams), need 5non-conference games a year, so that is our biggest problem is too muchinventory. With the some Ivys agreeingto play at NEC schools, I would expect to see the PL-NEC scheduling agreements continue for quite some time and PL schollys have very little impact on that trend for the immediate future.

[DFW HOYA]

Q: Why would Harvard schedule URI?


A 90 minute drive down I-95. No overnight stay.

[Go Green]

Q: Why would Harvard schedule URI?

A:




2002

Tim Stowers




3


9


0


0.25000


187


389


-202




2003

Tim Stowers




4


8


0


0.33333


309


381


-72




2004

Tim Stowers




4


7


0


0.36364


265


355


-90




2005

Tim Stowers




4


7


0


0.36364


312


306


6




2006

Tim Stowers




4


7


0


0.36364


214


332


-118




2007

Tim Stowers




3


8


0


0.27273


228


360


-132




2008

Darren Rizzi




3


9


0


0.25000


226


384


-158




2009

Joe Trainer




1


10


0


0.09091


232


406


-174




2010

Joe Trainer




5


6


0


0.45455


217


268


-51




2011

Joe Trainer




3


8


0


0.27273


243


312


-69




2012

Joe Trainer




0


11


0


0.00000


105


432


-327




2013

Joe Trainer




3


9


0


0.25000


159


402


-243





One guy on the Ivy board suggested that Harvard is adopting a weak OOC schedule so they can catch up with Yale's All-Time wins record quicker.

Doesn't sound that far fetched....

[Sader87]

Economics being what they are these days, I doubt we'll see too many inter-regional FCS games going forward. I'm sure it may happen occasionally, HC is really pushing for a West-Coast presence in its enrollment so you may see the Saders travel there (Cal-Poly, San Diego et. al) but for the most part, I foresee mostly bus trips going forward. HC could schedule home and home's with UNH, URI, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook and maybe even UMass down the road.

I agree ace, acheduling is going to be an even more difficult process going forward. I think the Ivies will ultimately realize that the new schollie PL teams are not going to be "Florida St North" and will resume scheduling them more in the future.

My ideal annual schedule for HC would be: 6 PL, 2 Ivies, 1 CAA, 1 NEC and 1 FBS.

[Sader87]

A 90 minute drive down I-95. No overnight stay.

Closer than that.....depending on the traffic xrotatehx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Worthy of mention is the growth of respect of the NEC teams. If they go the route of Sacred Heart and schedule and beat PL champs on a regular basis (and compete well in the playoffs, as they did last year and in 2012), those games will mean more on PL campuses.

And I agree, OOC games will remain for the most part regional. If they go out of market they will be for special occasions, like trips to Jacksonville, San Diego, or the like.

[Ivytalk]

One guy on the Ivy board suggested that Harvard is adopting a weak OOC schedule so they can catch up with Yale's All-Time wins record quicker.

Doesn't sound that far fetched....

I don't know any Harvard fan under 80 years old who cares about that record. I just turned 60, and I don't give a rat's patoot about it. I do care about quality OOC games, and we aren't getting them. I blame Scalise and Murphy for that sad state of affairs.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This makes sense, and yes the landscape has changed a lot over the years.

Previously, NEC teams were brought in by the Patriot League for $$ as a home game. However, the dynamic you now see is now home/home deals. For example, CCSU played at Lehigh in 2001 and Colgate in 2005 without a return game. Then they signed 2-game deals that brought both Lehigh and Holy Cross to New Britain.

Of course Delaware is a better opponent for a PL team than anything in the NEC. But are the Blue Hens willing to play you at your house? UD has scheduledmore NEC teams than Patriot League teams over the years for one simple reason - NEC are willing to cash a check and don't demand a home game. No disrespect, but how is Colgate or Bucknell going to get home games (forget talking about Gtown).

PL teams will have to offer 2 for 1, or have to cash a check to play at major scholarship programs like UD, NDSU, etc. And of course all these FBS games for the PL are on the road.

IMO - The real issue in scheduling is getting home games. The PL needs the Ivy/NEC/Pioneer for home games (and reginal road games) more than anything. It is a mtter of balance more than a desire.

Lehigh hosts JMU to start the year. I believe it is just a home and home.

I don't think Lehigh, HC or Lafayette will have trouble getting quality home games.

[PAllen]

I'm not sure who thinks Lehigh is so great. Maybe LFN, but most of us realize we are a competitive team, some yrs more than others, but not a top 5 team yr in and out. Not sure why anytime anyone mentions anything positive about us at all, you are there telling us we suck.

Because he know deep down in his heart that...

LAFAYETTE SUCKS!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[PAllen]

This makes sense, and yes the landscape has changed a lot over the years.

Previously, NEC teams were brought in by the Patriot League for $$ as a home game. However, the dynamic you now see is now home/home deals. For example, CCSU played at Lehigh in 2001 and Colgate in 2005 without a return game. Then they signed 2-game deals that brought both Lehigh and Holy Cross to New Britain.

Of course Delaware is a better opponent for a PL team than anything in the NEC. But are the Blue Hens willing to play you at your house? UD has scheduledmore NEC teams than Patriot League teams over the years for one simple reason - NEC are willing to cash a check and don't demand a home game. No disrespect, but how is Colgate or Bucknell going to get home games (forget talking about Gtown).

PL teams will have to offer 2 for 1, or have to cash a check to play at major scholarship programs like UD, NDSU, etc. And of course all these FBS games for the PL are on the road.

IMO - The real issue in scheduling is getting home games. The PL needs the Ivy/NEC/Pioneer for home games (and regional road games) more than anything. It is a mtter of balance more than a desire.

While this may be true for some in the PL, others have done just fine finding home and home agreements with "big time" CAA schools. I'd consider UNH and JMU as major scholarship programs at the FCS level. Heck, Lehigh had Wofford in a 2 for 1 deal the other way (2X in PA for 1 in SC) back in the 90s. I only seeing these opportunities increasing as teams go "full scholarship". As has been stated, many of the relationships with the Ivies go back long before there was a PL or even an Ivy League for that matter. Will Lehigh get a home and home with Rutgers? No and they probably won't get a home and home with Delaware or NDSU without major changes in Newark or Fargo. However, the Villanovas, JMUs, UNHs, and others are still more than enough.

No offense to folks in the NEC, but games against them do nothing for me as a fan. There is no history with you, there is no reputation, there's really nothing to get a PL fan excited about the matchup. I'd love to see us get back to scheduling one winnable FBS game in addition to our two "power conference" games. Balance that out with a few traditional Ivies matchups and one NEC or lesser opponent and I think you've got a pretty nice PL slate for all but Georgetown.

[aceinthehole]

Lehigh hosts JMU to start the year. I believe it is just a home and home.

I don't think Lehigh, HC or Lafayette will have trouble getting quality home games.

Non-Ivy/NEC/Pioneer home games since 2004 (10 seasons):

Lehigh - Villanova, VMI, New Hampshire, Liberty
Lafayette - Richmond, Liberty, Stony Brook, William & Mary
Holy Cross - Howard, UMass, New Hampshire, Towson

Ok. These are good games against quality opponents, but the majority of home games have been and likely will continue to be filled by Ivy/NEC/Pioneer.

[aceinthehole]

No offense to folks in the NEC, but games against them do nothing for me as a fan. There is no history with you, there is no reputation, there's really nothing to get a PL fan excited about the matchup. I'd love to see us get back to scheduling one winnable FBS game in addition to our two "power conference" games. Balance that out with a few traditional Ivies matchups and one NEC or lesser opponent and I think you've got a pretty nice PL slate for all but Georgetown.

I don't disagree with your opinion and don't take offense at all. I just think when you have 5 non-conference games to fill each year, and the 2 leagues you would like to schedule more often (Ivy/CAA) have just 3 openings annually it is very difficult because the math just doesn't work. The most "attractive" schools have few dates available and most CAA teams don't want to give up a home game.

Yes, many of the CAA teams, like a 'Nova, UNH, Towson, Maine, will be willing to sign a home/home with Lehigh, and you also have the Albany and Stony Brook available. Lehigh is certainly in a better position than a Sacred Heart or Wagner to schedule home games with the CAA. But I still think its a difficult to fill a home slate with "historic" or "exciting" opponents year after year.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't have a problem with NEC teams simply because they are possible playoff foes. Imo, it's good to be familar with them if nothing else. Plus, Duquense and RMU would give Lehigh a chance to play in Western PA.

Monmouth has been a good OOC opponent for Lehigh. With Beach Hawks move to the Big South I hope the series continues.

Lehigh might not get a perfect OOC slate every year, 2012, but more often then not they'll fair pretty well. One thing Lehigh has been willing to do is play 6 road games.

[Pard4Life]

This makes sense, and yes the landscape has changed a lot over the years.

Previously, NEC teams were brought in by the Patriot League for $$ as a home game. However, the dynamic you now see is now home/home deals. For example, CCSU played at Lehigh in 2001 and Colgate in 2005 without a return game. Then they signed 2-game deals that brought both Lehigh and Holy Cross to New Britain.

Of course Delaware is a better opponent for a PL team than anything in the NEC. But are the Blue Hens willing to play you at your house? UD has scheduledmore NEC teams than Patriot League teams over the years for one simple reason - NEC are willing to cash a check and don't demand a home game. No disrespect, but how is Colgate or Bucknell going to get home games (forget talking about Gtown).

PL teams will have to offer 2 for 1, or have to cash a check to play at major scholarship programs like UD, NDSU, etc. And of course all these FBS games for the PL are on the road.

IMO - The real issue in scheduling is getting home games. The PL needs the Ivy/NEC/Pioneer for home games (and regional road games) more than anything. It is a mtter of balance more than a desire.

I'm surprised that PL road games are $ games for you... it's not like we have $ to pay you for playing us... I mean, $5,000? Can't be like $50,000..

Yes, Delaware is coming to Fisher, but in a 2-1 deal like you said. Liberty was a home-home and W&M was a 2-2 series; Richmond was a home-home too, same with Stony Brook. Teams have been fair to us, except NDSU, but we knew what we signed up for. I'd take the 2-1 Delaware series simply because Newark is closer to the Philly alumni base, so you will see a strong turnout. So, I don't think getting home games with the CAAs of the world is a significant issue... JMU is coming to Brown Town after all...

[Pard4Life]

Worthy of mention is the growth of respect of the NEC teams. If they go the route of Sacred Heart and schedule and beat PL champs on a regular basis (and compete well in the playoffs, as they did last year and in 2012), those games will mean more on PL campuses.

And I agree, OOC games will remain for the most part regional. If they go out of market they will be for special occasions, like trips to Jacksonville, San Diego, or the like.

LFN, any opponent will sadly mean nothing to nearly everyone except if it's Lafayette or Lehigh at each rival campus, or if it's the national title game, or a high-brow Ivy because everyone loves to fawn over name association. Nobody will ever care about playing a solid Sacred Heart team every year, just as nobody at Sacred Heart will ever care about playing Lafayette or Lehigh. Playing Army makes people take notice though... it's name and brand, ultimately. I have no illusions about anyone anywhere caring about PL schools, except maybe BC for HC.

[DFW HOYA]

Non-Ivy/NEC/Pioneer home games since 2004 (10 seasons):

Lehigh - Villanova, VMI, New Hampshire, Liberty
Lafayette - Richmond, Liberty, Stony Brook, William & Mary
Holy Cross - Howard, UMass, New Hampshire, Towson


Georgetown - VMI, Stony Brook, Howard, Richmond

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, any opponent will sadly mean nothing to nearly everyone except if it's Lafayette or Lehigh at each rival campus, or if it's the national title game, or a high-brow Ivy because everyone loves to fawn over name association. Nobody will ever care about playing a solid Sacred Heart team every year, just as nobody at Sacred Heart will ever care about playing Lafayette or Lehigh. Playing Army makes people take notice though... it's name and brand, ultimately. I have no illusions about anyone anywhere caring about PL schools, except maybe BC for HC.

I probably should have prefaced this by saying that NEC games wouldn't likely challenge the Rivalry, big conference games, or the like in regards to home games. But I would think that Sacred Heart would be a better draw than Columbia.

[WestCoastAggie]

The IL could start looking at games against the MEAC. Those games could be played in Neutral-Sites, such as Gilette Stadium (Urban League Classic) for instance. The MEAC northern teams are in great proximity for them (Hampton, Howard, Morgan State, Delaware State) to look at H/H deals if they want to.

[aceinthehole]

I'm surprised that PL road games are $ games for you... it's not like we have $ to pay you for playing us... I mean, $5,000? Can't be like $50,000..


For the record, anytime a team doesn't get a return game they are getting paid. Back then, most NEC teams couldn't get a return so they took the $$$ (probably at least $40k).

[Go Green]

For the record, anytime a team doesn't get a return game they are getting paid. Back then, most NEC teams couldn't get a return so they took the $$$ (probably at least $40k).

This is just for the NEC, right?

Or is Georgetown actually paying Dartmouth to come to DC in 2015?

[Go Green]

The IL could start looking at games against the MEAC. Those games could be played in Neutral-Sites, such as Gilette Stadium (Urban League Classic) for instance. The MEAC northern teams are in great proximity for them (Hampton, Howard, Morgan State, Delaware State) to look at H/H deals if they want to.

Princeton had a home-and-home with Hampton not too long ago. They lost both games, but I think both were competitive.

No idea why more games weren't scheduled.

Only other game I'm aware of is when Yale destroyed a then-Division II Morgan State in the early 1980s.

[aceinthehole]

This is just for the NEC, right?

Or is Georgetown actually paying Dartmouth to come to DC in 2015?

No, as a general rule any team that is travelling without a return game is getting a payment or subsidy for that travel. That's the point of FBS teams paying a FCS opponent. Or FCS teams buying home games from D-II schools. It happens within the subdivsion as well. Delaware paid Wagner to come to the Tub, they didn't do it just for the game.

It is possible, but I doubt Dartmouth would drive (or fly) to DC for a game if Hoyas wont return the favor at a later time? The return game may not be in consecutive years, but usually any deal that is not a home/home or 2 for 1, involves some payment.

[Go Green]

I'll make sure that Jake (runs the Columbia football blog) sees this.

Jake just linked to the Fordham board. Doesn't say much of substance in response, but perhaps the Columbia faithful will.

http://culions.blogspot.com/

[Pard4Life]

The notion of Georgetown 'paying' for any visiting team is... odd. So they are in fact losing more money if the rest of their OOCs are return games?

[Ivytalk]

Jake just linked to the Fordham board. Doesn't say much of substance in response, but perhaps the Columbia faithful will.

http://culions.blogspot.com/


The IL could start looking at games against the MEAC. Those games could be played in Neutral-Sites, such as Gilette Stadium (Urban League Classic) for instance. The MEAC northern teams are in great proximity for them (Hampton, Howard, Morgan State, Delaware State) to look at H/H deals if they want to.


Interesting idea! Harvard-Howard. Howard-Harvard. They even sound alike. Somebody call Scalise!

[WestCoastAggie]

Quick side note: Many HBCU grads have gone on to earn Graduate Degrees at Ivy League institutions. This could be a great way for all involved to continue to grow recruiting efforts of these students.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Man, I roll my eyes at this whole thing. The Ivy League (well before there was an Ivy League) and the Patriot League (well before there was a Patriot League) have been playing one another for 150 years. They're my favorite OOC opponents and my personal wish would be to schedule all of our OOC games with Ivy, ad infinitum. But that's not going to happen, at least now.

My own take on this is that Harvard and Brown will continue to schedule Holy Cross because that's what their fans and alumni want to see. Penn will continue to schedule Lafayette because that's what their fans and alumni want to see. Cornell will continue to schedule Colgate and Bucknell because that's what their fans and alumni want to see. Princeton will continue to schedule Lehigh because that's what their fans and alumni want to see.

But if the Ivy League determines that its fans and alumni would prefer to see San Diego, Mercer, Marist and Sacred Heart - so be it. It's Ivy's decision and no overarching sense of "historic loyalty" to the PL teams will change anyone's mind. It all will come down to the comparative enthusiasm of fans and alumni - including season ticket sales and donations - at each individual school.

I'd hate to give up Penn, Princeton, Yale and Harvard after so many years, but it takes two to tango. Ivy will schedule the best games it can get, Patriot will schedule the best games it can get, and both will let the chips fall where they may.

Yet I wouldn't be completely shocked it all those chips eventually wind up falling into the same bag, when all is said and done.

[Go...gate]

If they wanted it, they would have done it in 1954 when the league was first formed.

I think we're safe on the OOC games. Or if we do go NESCAC-style, it will be because we invited more teams to join the league and still want to cap games at 10 a season.

Exactly my point. Look at your history. They have been trending in this direction for sixty years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

2013 was an odd yr. PL champ wasn't best team.

Beat the stuffing out of you, though, didn't they? xcoffeex

[Go...gate]

I really think a 60 schollie, AI and no redshirting PL= the $$$ a lot of the Ivies give to kids who play football in the Ancient 8.

It may not be a perfect balance but it's about as close as the two leagues can be imo.

Agreed.

[Go...gate]

Worthy of mention is the growth of respect of the NEC teams. If they go the route of Sacred Heart and schedule and beat PL champs on a regular basis (and compete well in the playoffs, as they did last year and in 2012), those games will mean more on PL campuses.

And I agree, OOC games will remain for the most part regional. If they go out of market they will be for special occasions, like trips to Jacksonville, San Diego, or the like.

Economic realities.

[Go...gate]

While this may be true for some in the PL, others have done just fine finding home and home agreements with "big time" CAA schools. I'd consider UNH and JMU as major scholarship programs at the FCS level. Heck, Lehigh had Wofford in a 2 for 1 deal the other way (2X in PA for 1 in SC) back in the 90s. I only seeing these opportunities increasing as teams go "full scholarship". As has been stated, many of the relationships with the Ivies go back long before there was a PL or even an Ivy League for that matter. Will Lehigh get a home and home with Rutgers? No and they probably won't get a home and home with Delaware or NDSU without major changes in Newark or Fargo. However, the Villanovas, JMUs, UNHs, and others are still more than enough.

No offense to folks in the NEC, but games against them do nothing for me as a fan. There is no history with you, there is no reputation, there's really nothing to get a PL fan excited about the matchup. I'd love to see us get back to scheduling one winnable FBS game in addition to our two "power conference" games. Balance that out with a few traditional Ivies matchups and one NEC or lesser opponent and I think you've got a pretty nice PL slate for all but Georgetown.

Colgate may be an exception to this. The riivalry with Albany is a natural, and playing games at Wagner and Monmouth give Colgate's NY metropolitan area alumni a local game to see. This is especially important now that we no longer play Rutgers and will not play Princeton after 2015. We played them in New Brunswick and Princeton every year for a long time.

[Lehigh'98]

Beat the stuffing out of you, though, didn't they? xcoffeex

Absolutely did.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But if the Ivy League determines that its fans and alumni would prefer to see San Diego, Mercer, Marist and Sacred Heart - so be it. It's Ivy's decision and no overarching sense of "historic loyalty" to the PL teams will change anyone's mind. It all will come down to the comparative enthusiasm of fans and alumni - including season ticket sales and donations - at each individual school.

What happens when San Diego. Mercer, Marist and Sacred Heart beat up on some of these Ivies on a regular basis?

[DFW HOYA]

Man, I roll my eyes at this whole thing. The Ivy League (well before there was an Ivy League) and the Patriot League (well before there was a Patriot League) have been playing one another for 150 years. They're my favorite OOC opponents and my personal wish would be to schedule all of our OOC games with Ivy, ad infinitum. But that's not going to happen, at least now.

150 years? Are we talking about the Patriot League or the mythical Patriot League that exists among four schools?

From 1917 to when it joined the PL, Fordham played a total of two Ivy League opponents. From that same period until Georgetown joined in 2001, just three games, and none after 1937. Even Bucknell, which had series with Cornell and Penn over the years, played the remaining Ivies sparingly for decades until the PL.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Yes, that has been the case for a few years now. xsmhx xnonono2x That's why I am studying my options for 2015 - whether to support two FCS teams that year or to fully support a scholly FCS team that is restarting that year (ETSU) or to become an "FCS generalist"... xchinscratchx


19449.....WHAA NOT....ADOPT UH CHICKEN?.........GET TA MAKE DONATION FO' SEATS.......&......BEER INSIDE STADIUM...........WE HAVE HANDRAILS TOO!......AN' MAYBEAH.....AFTERAH SOME....ACC THRASHIN'S.........WE'LL GET UH PRESSBOX....FO' MR. C.........AN' RAISE OURAH OWN QB'S........xhighfivex......BRAWK!

[Go Green]

What happens when ... Sacred Heart beats up on some of these Ivies on a regular basis?

Already happening. :)

[2ram]

150 years? Are we talking about the Patriot League or the mythical Patriot League that exists among four schools?

From 1917 to when it joined the PL, Fordham played a total of two Ivy League opponents. From that same period until Georgetown joined in 2001, just three games, and none after 1937. Even Bucknell, which had series with Cornell and Penn over the years, played the remaining Ivies sparingly for decades until the PL.

to be fair, 4 schools are more than half the football playing members, and since fordham was partly responsible for the coining/meaning of the IL, it's only fair we get to keep proving it's meaning true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

According to the book Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins (1988), author William Morris writes that Stanley Woodward actually took the term from fellow New York Tribune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Tribune) sportswriter Caswell Adams. Morris writes that during the 1930s, the Fordham University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordham_University) football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football) team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordham_Rams_football) was running roughshod over all its opponents. One day in the sports room at the Tribune, the merits of Fordham's football team were being compared to those of Princeton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_Tigers_football) and Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Lions_football). Adams remarked disparagingly of the latter two, saying they were "only Ivy League." Woodward, the sports editor of the Tribune, picked up the term and printed the next day.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's not forget that until the 1930s Penn, Princeton, Harvard and Yale had the biggest football machines around anywhere. That Lehigh and Lafayette got to be Princeton and Penn's whipping boy for so long was largely due to an accident of geography. They needed easy "small college" games (that were easy wins), and both schools were happy to oblige.

(Something to mull over re: NEC games, too..)

Georgetown's football machine in the 1900s to the 1930's coincided with Princeton's backing off of big-time football.

[2ram]

Economics being what they are these days, I doubt we'll see too many inter-regional FCS games going forward. I'm sure it may happen occasionally, HC is really pushing for a West-Coast presence in its enrollment so you may see the Saders travel there (Cal-Poly, San Diego et. al) but for the most part, I foresee mostly bus trips going forward. HC could schedule home and home's with UNH, URI, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook and maybe even UMass down the road.

I agree ace, acheduling is going to be an even more difficult process going forward. I think the Ivies will ultimately realize that the new schollie PL teams are not going to be "Florida St North" and will resume scheduling them more in the future.

My ideal annual schedule for HC would be: 6 PL, 2 Ivies, 1 CAA, 1 NEC and 1 FBS.

idk about that sader. the PL won't be FSU north ofc, but i'm pretty sure it's going to be a lot better in FCS than it's been. come to think of it, HC was tops in the nation in it's last few years as a scholarship program. what makes you feel that HC won't get back there, or that IL schools will be interested in scheduling a program/programs of that caliber?

[PAllen]

This is just for the NEC, right?

Or is Georgetown actually paying Dartmouth to come to DC in 2015?

They're repaying you with an unlimited live broadcast feed via Verizon FIOS. :D

[Sader87]

idk about that sader. the PL won't be FSU north ofc, but i'm pretty sure it's going to be a lot better in FCS than it's been. come to think of it, HC was tops in the nation in it's last few years as a scholarship program. what makes you feel that HC won't get back there, or that IL schools will be interested in scheduling a program/programs of that caliber?

HC will be bettah than they've been from 1993-2012 (non-schollie era), the question is how much bettah? My guess? Not quite as good as we were in the 1980s. Too many governors (AI, no redhirts etc) to be quite as good as the perennial Top 10 FCS programs now....though that's not to say we (or any other PL program) won't "catch lightning in a bottle" some year and make a championship run, like Fordham may do this year.

I think the Ivies are basically just having a "snit fit" with us in that we reneged on going non-scholarship. Once they realize that the PL schools aren't the behemoths they envision, they'll come back around to playing PL schools as much as they once did in the past.

[Doc QB]

HC will be bettah than they've been from 1993-2012 (non-schollie era), the question is how much bettah? My guess? Not quite as good as we were in the 1980s. Too many governors (AI, no redhirts etc) to be quite as good as the perennial Top 10 FCS programs now....though that's not to say we (or any other PL program) won't "catch lightning in a bottle" some year and make a championship run, like Fordham may do this year.

Sader, it is not the governors holding Cross back. Mark Duffner and his his cast of assistants (many in NFL now) are not coming back. Duffner was 66-5-1 in his stretch. Gimore ain't Duffner. That has more bite than AIs and redshirts.

[aceinthehole]

Man, I roll my eyes at this whole thing. The Ivy League (well before there was an Ivy League) and the Patriot League (well before there was a Patriot League) have been playing one another for 150 years. They're my favorite OOC opponents and my personal wish would be to schedule all of our OOC games with Ivy, ad infinitum. But that's not going to happen, at least now.

Or ever. With few exceptions* all FCS teams in "Lambert" States (New England + NY, PA, DE, MD, DC, VA) play football in just 4 conferences:

CAA (12 teams; 3 non-conference) = 36; minus 12 FBS opponents; minus Elon = 22
Ivy (8 teams; 3 non-conference) = 24
NEC (7 teams; 5 non-conference) = 35
Patriot (7 teams; 5 non-conference) = 35

The fact is every team in our region will see a healthy mix of the other 3 conferences on their schedule, especially the NEC and PL.

*Delaware State (MEAC), Hampton (MEAC), Marist (Pioneer), Monmouth (Big South), Morgan State (MEAC), Norfolk State (MEAC), Liberty (Big South), VMI (SoCon).

[Go...gate]

Sader, it is not the governors holding Cross back. Mark Duffner and his his cast of assistants (many in NFL now) are not coming back. Duffner was 66-5-1 in his stretch. Gimore ain't Duffner. That has more bite than AIs and redshirts.

But another Rick Carter may come along. Carter got the machine in place during 1981 - 84 and then sadly took his own life after a 4-6-1 record in 1985. He recruited a great many of the athletes on HC's 1987 team, which ranks among the greatest 1-AA/FCS clubs ever.

[PAllen]

Or ever. With few exceptions* all FCS teams in "Lambert" States (New England + NY, PA, DE, MD, DC, VA) play football in just 4 conferences:

CAA (12 teams; 3 non-conference) = 36; minus 12 FBS opponents; minus Elon = 22
Ivy (8 teams; 3 non-conference) = 24
NEC (7 teams; 5 non-conference) = 35
Patriot (7 teams; 5 non-conference) = 35

The fact is every team in our region will see a healthy mix of the other 3 conferences on their schedule, especially the NEC and PL.

*Delaware State (MEAC), Hampton (MEAC), Marist (Pioneer), Monmouth (Big South), Morgan State (MEAC), Norfolk State (MEAC), Liberty (Big South), VMI (SoCon).

You forgot poor little old Howard, but yeah, you've got a point. The majority of the SoCon, Big South and OVC are just too far away from most schools in the NE for it to make sense.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In many leagues, interesting intersectional games have been replaced by FBS money games. At one time, Wofford doing a home-and-home with Lehigh or Lafayette made a lot of sense. Now, though, it's either set that up, or schedule games like Wofford vs. Clemson, games which are not only significant money-makers for the schools, but also big time events in their own right. Wofford-Lehigh can't compete in either arena.

For the IL, money isn't the issue, it's more that they cannot schedule the prestigious FBS games because they want to have it both ways: they wish to persist the myth that they're "non-scholarship", but when it comes to FBS games, they want to be considered "counters", i.e. full scholarship schools. So they are stuck with regional games for the most part, with the occasional big road trip thown in (to San Diego, Cal Poly, Jacksonville, etc.)

The PL only has seven members, so they always have five or six OOC games to fill each year. Slot two for Ivies, and that leaves no fewer than three more OOC games that need to come from somewhere. Hopefully FBS games, ideally one every year or couple of years, will help fill those.

[PAllen]

In many leagues, interesting intersectional games have been replaced by FBS money games. At one time, Wofford doing a home-and-home with Lehigh or Lafayette made a lot of sense. Now, though, it's either set that up, or schedule games like Wofford vs. Clemson, games which are not only significant money-makers for the schools, but also big time events in their own right. Wofford-Lehigh can't compete in either arena.

For the IL, money isn't the issue, it's more that they cannot schedule the prestigious FBS games because they want to have it both ways: they wish to persist the myth that they're "non-scholarship", but when it comes to FBS games, they want to be considered "counters", i.e. full scholarship schools. So they are stuck with regional games for the most part, with the occasional big road trip thown in (to San Diego, Cal Poly, Jacksonville, etc.)

The PL only has seven members, so they always have five or six OOC games to fill each year. Slot two for Ivies, and that leaves no fewer than three more OOC games that need to come from somewhere. Hopefully FBS games, ideally one every year or couple of years, will help fill those.

The ideal 5-6 OOC games for most PL schools: 2 Ivies, 1 winnable FBS (there are plenty in this part of the country), 1 CAA, 1-2 of :second CAA, third Ivy, NEC, lesser regional opponent (in that order of preference). I see no reason this isn't doable most seasons from here on out.

[Doc QB]

Or ever. With few exceptions* all FCS teams in "Lambert" States (New England + NY, PA, DE, MD, DC, VA) play football in just 4 conferences:

CAA (12 teams; 3 non-conference) = 36; minus 12 FBS opponents; minus Elon = 22
Ivy (8 teams; 3 non-conference) = 24
NEC (7 teams; 5 non-conference) = 35
Patriot (7 teams; 5 non-conference) = 35

The fact is every team in our region will see a healthy mix of the other 3 conferences on their schedule, especially the NEC and PL.

*Delaware State (MEAC), Hampton (MEAC), Marist (Pioneer), Monmouth (Big South), Morgan State (MEAC), Norfolk State (MEAC), Liberty (Big South), VMI (SoCon).

Ace, you have a good many posts with compelling math. Thanks for doing the homework, it really drives home the scheduling issues, availability, etc. When u add in schools who have no interest in playing each other, schools who will not give up a home game opportunity, the available FC pool can shrink further. Appreciate the analysis.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In many leagues, interesting intersectional games have been replaced by FBS money games. At one time, Wofford doing a home-and-home with Lehigh or Lafayette made a lot of sense. Now, though, it's either set that up, or schedule games like Wofford vs. Clemson, games which are not only significant money-makers for the schools, but also big time events in their own right. Wofford-Lehigh can't compete in either arena.

Interestingly enough, Frank Tavani (during last week's Lafayette Football Forum) apparently hinted at an upcoming Lafayette-Wofford series. Could be that CAA and SoCon games become an either/or for the PL.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Interestingly enough, Frank Tavani (during last week's Lafayette Football Forum) apparently hinted at an upcoming Lafayette-Wofford series. Could be that CAA and SoCon games become an either/or for the PL.

Furman, Wofford, VMI and The Citadel are attractive opponents for PL schools.

Colgate had games with Furman and Coastal Carolina recently. Those Confederates will play against the Yanks....

[Go...gate]

Furman, Wofford, VMI and The Citadel are attractive opponents for PL schools.

Colgate had games with Furman and Coastal Carolina recently. Those Confederates will play against the Yanks....

We've played The Citadel, VMI, W&M and Davidson over the years, too.

[carney2]

Ivy will schedule the best games it can get, Patriot will schedule the best games it can get, and both will let the chips fall where they may.

Yet I wouldn't be completely shocked it all those chips eventually wind up falling into the same bag, when all is said and done.

Money, geography, tradition, and academic snobbery dictate that it cannot be any other way. It's a shame however that all seem to have taken something of a psychotic interlude before sanity resumes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Money, geography, tradition, and academic snobbery dictate that it cannot be any other way. It's a shame however that all seem to have taken something of a psychotic interlude before sanity resumes.

There is one X factor to consider: how bad Harvard, Yale, Princeton and/or Penn wish to put FBS games on their schedules. If there was a way for Army to play Yale every other year while not "abandoning non-scholarship principles" or some drivel, I think Yale might pursue that. It would only involve a few FBS schools with historic ties (Rutgers and Boston College leap to mind, perhaps Navy and Syracuse), but that could be the game-changer.

Note that $$ guarantees for these types of games would not apply - Princeton doesn't need that $10 check. It would be more about the IL hobnobbing with schools they value.

[Sader87]

I dunno LFN, history says that the IL has become ever more provincial ovah the years not less so. Before the league was formalized in 1956, many of the Ivies, particularly UPenn, played "up." These games became rarer during the Ivy/1-A era (1956-1982) though some schools like H-Y-P-P would schedule schools like Army, Rutgers, BC et. al. During the FCS-era (1983-today) those games have all but disappeared completely.

I just don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon....hope I'm wrong.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I dunno LFN, history says that the IL has become ever more provincial ovah the years not less so. Before the league was formalized in 1956, many of the Ivies, particularly UPenn, played "up." These games became rarer during the Ivy/1-A era (1956-1982) though some schools like H-Y-P-P would schedule schools like Army, Rutgers, BC et. al. During the FCS-era (1983-today) those games have all but disappeared completely.

I just don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon....hope I'm wrong.

The question is whether they disappeared because it was a harm for BC, Syracuse, Army to schedule them (i.e. IL games are not bowl counters), or because the Ivy was purposely distancing themselves from "big-time" FBS football. It probably was a combination of both.

Nowadays there has been some motion, notably from Yale and Princeton, to bring back some of these games as special events, but as I mention, in order to be "bowl counter" games the IL needs to consider their athletes as "counters". To me, I think the IL should just give up the term and say what they really are: "scholarshipped" students the same way all of the IL students are "scholarshipped".

[Bogus Megapardus]

I dunno LFN, history says that the IL has become ever more provincial ovah the years not less so. Before the league was formalized in 1956, many of the Ivies, particularly UPenn, played "up." These games became rarer during the Ivy/1-A era (1956-1982) though some schools like H-Y-P-P would schedule schools like Army, Rutgers, BC et. al. During the FCS-era (1983-today) those games have all but disappeared completely.

I just don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon....hope I'm wrong.

With the exception of Army/Yale Bowl 100, I agree that Ivy won't go there - unless (like Army/Yale Bowl 100) the game is played at the Ivy site. I could see Duke (or even Stanford) playing at Harvard Stadium on some special occasion, for instance.

[Sader87]

The "countah" is the killah as LFN notes. BC has been dying to play Harvahhhd for decades but not sure they'd evah schedule them today (or if Harvard would schedule them in the first place) if a win for the Eagles does nothing for their bowl resume.

[Pard4Life]

Harvard would possibly beat BC! Shocking, considering BC was #2 in 2007.

Yeah, IL is becoming more insular... you had a Penn OOC in 1950 of Cal, Ohio State, Georgia, UNC... and then Rutgers, Army, Navy, Air Force for the IL in the 60s-70s (their academic and strength equivalents during this time period)... to the PL in the 80s-00s... again their peers... to the... Pioneer/PL in the 10s and moving forward...

The Army game is a black swan, and Army is closer to FCS than Yale/Harvard are to playing Stanford.

Like the venerable Mr. 13 said before he retired from AGS, the IL stick to those who they want to associate with and only compete at the highest level of sport... playing Rutgers for one game does not accomplish either for Princeton.... maybe you might see them play in 2069?

[Go Green]

Nowadays there has been some motion, notably from Yale and Princeton, to bring back some of these games as special events, ".

Yale, maybe.

But Princeton is giving Harvard a run for biggest scheduling downgrade in the league.

[Sader87]

I've long maintained that the service academies (particularly Army and Navy) will ultimately play at a more FCS-like level once all this P5, O'Bannon etc posturing settles out. I wouldn't be shocked to see both of these institutions playing primarily Ivy and Patriot schools in football down the road.

[Pard4Life]

Yale, maybe.

But Princeton is giving Harvard a run for biggest scheduling downgrade in the league.

I disagree.. Princeton is more or less staying the same... Laf/Lehigh/Gate 2015... Laf/Lehigh/Gtown 2016... Laf/Gtown/San Diego 2017

Can't hold San Diego too much against Princeton... the IL like to visit their west coast alumni.

Penn has a tough schedule in 2015, 2016... 2017 is a mystery, only CCSU as an OOC and two open dates... hope Pards make it back on...

[Pard4Life]

I've long maintained that the service academies (particularly Army and Navy) will ultimately play at a more FCS-like level once all this P5, O'Bannon etc posturing settles out. I wouldn't be shocked to see both of these institutions playing primarily Ivy and Patriot schools in football down the road.

Even though Navy has joined the Big East?? Or AAC... whatever it's called...

[Sader87]

Even though Navy has joined the Big East?? Or AAC... whatever it's called...

I think so.....not saying in the next few years, but a decade or so from now? Quite possibly. The FBS-level is just getting too professionalized in so many ways for a service academy to justify being associated with them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

2019 will be the 150th anniversary of Princeton playing Rutgers in the first intercollegiate football game playing with rules that differed from the English variety. I am wondering/hoping that Princeton and Rutgers will find a way to play that game somewhere.

[Bogus Megapardus]

playing Rutgers for one game does not accomplish either for Princeton.... maybe you might see them play in 2069?

My suspicion is that, by 2069, Rutgers will be a series of store front franchises in strip malls across New Jersey. It will be fully-automated, pictorial punch-pad education. You'll swipe your debit card (EBT accepted, of course) and get charged by the minute, depending on how long it "takes you to learn stuff." Kinda like a self-serve car wash, only not as tidy. "Thank you for shopping Rutgers of Hackensack. Your receipt is your diploma. Have a nice day."

Football? "Please deposit twenty-five bitcoins for one quarter of Rutgers play against the University of Phoenix . . . please select a venue . . . please select a quarterback . . . "

[PAllen]

I disagree.. Princeton is more or less staying the same... Laf/Lehigh/Gate 2015... Laf/Lehigh/Gtown 2016... Laf/Gtown/San Diego 2017

Can't hold San Diego too much against Princeton... the IL like to visit their west coast alumni.

Penn has a tough schedule in 2015, 2016... 2017 is a mystery, only CCSU as an OOC and two open dates... hope Pards make it back on...

Except that from a strength perspective, Gtown < Colgate and San Diego < Lehigh

[Bogus Megapardus]

I disagree.. Princeton is more or less staying the same... Laf/Lehigh/Gate 2015... Laf/Lehigh/Gtown 2016... Laf/Gtown/San Diego 2017

Can't hold San Diego too much against Princeton... the IL like to visit their west coast alumni.

Penn has a tough schedule in 2015, 2016... 2017 is a mystery, only CCSU as an OOC and two open dates... hope Pards make it back on...


Except that from a strength perspective, Gtown < Colgate and San Diego < Lehigh

Lafayette does better against Penn; Lehigh does better against Princeton. Maybe we should just keep it that way.

[Go Green]

I disagree.. Princeton is more or less staying the same... Laf/Lehigh/Gate 2015... Laf/Lehigh/Gtown 2016... Laf/Gtown/San Diego 2017



They also play Davidson next month.

[Sader87]

No offense to the L's but there's really no way you can make an argument that Ole Nassau is challenging itself from 2014-2017.

[carney2]

My suspicion is that, by 2069, Rutgers will be a series of store front franchises in strip malls across New Jersey. It will be fully-automated, pictorial punch-pad education. You'll swipe your debit card (EBT accepted, of course) and get charged by the minute, depending on how long it "takes you to learn stuff." Kinda like a self-serve car wash, only not as tidy. "Thank you for shopping Rutgers of Hackensack. Your receipt is your diploma. Have a nice day."

Football? "Please deposit twenty-five bitcoins for one quarter of Rutgers play against the University of Phoenix . . . please select a venue . . . please select a quarterback . . . "

Where do I go to give beaucoup the rep points? One of the best posts EVER at AGS, Bogie. You are entitled to take the rest of the day off.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Even though Navy has joined the Big East?? Or AAC... whatever it's called...

I hope they realize what a mistake that was. When Navy joined it was the "old" Big East. Now they're an AAC football-only outlier whose all-sports affiliation will remain much more strongly tied to the Patriot League. If Division I becomes recast as P5 on one side and everyone else on the other, Navy might have to reconsider.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You are entitled to take the rest of the day off.

Thanks, carney2. I gather the kiosks along the Parkway will accept EZ-Pass as well. IQ less than 90 - Left Lane Only. "What is your name? . . . what is your major? . . . what exit? . . . regular or extra foamy?"

[aceinthehole]

No offense to the L's but there's really no way you can make an argument that Ole Nassau is challenging itself from 2014-2017.

And they haven't for decades before either ...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?157378-Ivy-League-Non-Conference-Schedules-2015-2017&p=2127674&viewfull=1#post2127674

[Pard4Life]

Thanks, carney2. I gather the kiosks along the Parkway will accept EZ-Pass as well. IQ less than 90 - Left Lane Only. "What is your name? . . . what is your major? . . . what exit? . . . regular or extra foamy?"

If the left lane is 'IQ less than 90'... I might as well just take Route 35 and 9... no way you will ever get through that traffic jam on the Garden State Parking Lot.

[Pard4Life]

No offense to the L's but there's really no way you can make an argument that Ole Nassau is challenging itself from 2014-2017.

The Ls are their usual first two games and the third is either Colgate or weaker team... i.e. Hampton or San Diego. They've played Gtown before, so it's really more of the same.

[Pard4Life]

Except that from a strength perspective, Gtown < Colgate and San Diego < Lehigh

It's more like Gtown < San Diego < Colgate, Lehigh... given the beasts Colgate has recruited, Gate may be better than Lehigh. Hard to tell what the future will bring, but Colgate is not going to be a 4-5 win team annually, and Lafayette and Lehigh are surely not .500 teams with schollies.

[Pard4Life]

2019 will be the 150th anniversary of Princeton playing Rutgers in the first intercollegiate football game playing with rules that differed from the English variety. I am wondering/hoping that Princeton and Rutgers will find a way to play that game somewhere.

EA Sports' NCAA Football 2020.

[Pard4Life]

Lafayette does better against Penn; Lehigh does better against Princeton. Maybe we should just keep it that way.

Exactly; you don't want to endanger Lafayette's associate membership with the Princeton Club do you?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

EA Sports' NCAA Football 2020.

The real question is will the great-great-great grandchildren of William Gunmere or John W. Herbert get "name-image-likeness" money from it?

[Bogus Megapardus]

You don't want to endanger Lafayette's associate membership with the Princeton Club do you?

No, and you should shut up about that. Great perk of being a Lafayette alum but we're not supposed to spread it around. xcoolx

[PAllen]

And they haven't for decades before either ...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?157378-Ivy-League-Non-Conference-Schedules-2015-2017&p=2127674&viewfull=1#post2127674

No shame in playing The Citadel, Navy, Northwestern, and William & Mary. Playing one game against Davidson, two against Hampton, and two against San Diego over a 20 year period isn't exactly ducking the competition.

[PAllen]

It's more like Gtown < San Diego < Colgate, Lehigh... given the beasts Colgate has recruited, Gate may be better than Lehigh. Hard to tell what the future will bring, but Colgate is not going to be a 4-5 win team annually, and Lafayette and Lehigh are surely not .500 teams with schollies.

No doubt, I was simply pointing out that 2015 has Lehigh, Lafayette, & Colgate. Drop Colgate for the lesser opponent in Georgetown and you have 2016. Then drop Lehigh for the lesser opponent in San Diego and you have 2017. Definitely a downward trend.

[Go...gate]

Yale, maybe.

But Princeton is giving Harvard a run for biggest scheduling downgrade in the league.

Agreed.

[Sader87]

The Princeton Club sucks......the Harvahhhhd Club, which HC alumni can join, on the other hand, is fabulous.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Princeton Club sucks......the Harvahhhhd Club, which HC alumni can join, on the other hand, is fabulous.

Not.

Harvard Club is stuffy, white-shoe and shop-worn. It continues to smell of ass and cigar long after the smoking ban went into effect (farting still is allowed). You could deburr your fingernails on the thickly starched tablecloths. I think they bring the food via the slow ferry from Hackensack.

On the plus side, you have plenty of time to discuss business by the time they bring your petroleum-sogged salad.

[Ivytalk]

xrolleyesx
Not.

Harvard Club is stuffy, white-shoe and shop-worn. It continues to smell of ass and cigar long after the smoking ban went into effect (farting still is allowed). You could deburr your fingernails on the thickly starched tablecloths. I think they bring the food via the slow ferry from Hackensack.

On the plus side, you have plenty of time to discuss business by the time they bring your petroleum-sogged salad.

Well, Bogie, if you want to go to a club where gents still politely lift their soup spoons to their mouths and PL guests come in through the front door, the Princeton Club is for you. The Harvard Club has some of the most reasonably priced accommodations in NYC, and you can rub elbows with the best kind of people. Like me and Sader87. Last time I had lunch there, John Lithgow sat at the next table. When was the last time you saw Brooke Shields at the PC? Get real, and stop hijacking Ivy threads.

[Go Green]

Anyone still doubting whether Princeton is downgrading its nonconference schedule, the Princeton coach said he wants to go NESASC-like "Ivy Only" scheduling.

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/have-solution-to-scheduling-dilemma.html


Princeton coach Bob Surace:

It will be interesting. I got the job four-and-a-half years ago and the schedule was set until like 2022. I have no idea.


Lehigh ended up being our opener the last four years and they are nationally ranked and go to the playoffs. San Diego had a playoff team last year. You just don’t know how they’re going to be on any given year. I’m sure when those games were scheduled they didn’t know how we were going to be as well. Some of that is well, well, well into the future the way these schedules are set.


My personal opinion, I would love to get rid of all the out-of-conference opponents so we don’t have to talk about who else we are playing. Have an East Division and a West Division and just play Ivy League football. And then have a championship at the end and then go to the playoffs. That would be beautiful.


They do it in baseball that way. I think that’s awesome how they do it. Then we just play each other. That’s who we recruit against, that’s who we play against. I think that’s who the fans want to see for the most part.


But that’s just my opinion, more as an alum than it is as a coach, because our schedule is what it is for the next eight or nine years.

[Lehigh'98]

An east/west Ivy League? With a title game that's only 8 games. Sounds silly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

xrolleyesx

Well, Bogie, if you want to go to a club where gents still politely lift their soup spoons to their mouths and PL guests come in through the front door, the Princeton Club is for you. The Harvard Club has some of the most reasonably priced accommodations in NYC, and you can rub elbows with the best kind of people. Like me and Sader87. Last time I had lunch there, John Lithgow sat at the next table. When was the last time you saw Brooke Shields at the PC? Get real, and stop hijacking Ivy threads.

On a completely unrelated, name-dropping note, my wife saw Brooke Shields when she attended Princeton and went up to her and talked to her exactly once. I loved her story about the "meeting" so much that whenever we see her on TV, I always rib her, "Hey, isn't that your close personal friend, Brooke Shields?"

And no, this wasn't at the Princeton club. I tend to be of Groucho Marx' feeling that I wouldn't want to be a part of a club that would accept me as a member.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It will be interesting. I got the job four-and-a-half years ago and the schedule was set until like 2022. I have no idea.
Lehigh ended up being our opener the last four years and they are nationally ranked and go to the playoffs. San Diego had a playoff team last year.

In what alternate universe does Bob Surace live? Not only did San Diego not make the playoffs last season, Lehigh didn't either.

Maybe he lives in the same alternate universe as the IL presidents.

[UAalum72]

I dunno LFN, history says that the IL has become ever more provincial ovah the years not less so. Before the league was formalized in 1956, many of the Ivies, particularly UPenn, played "up." These games became rarer during the Ivy/1-A era (1956-1982) though some schools like H-Y-P-P would schedule schools like Army, Rutgers, BC et. al. During the FCS-era (1983-today) those games have all but disappeared completely.
Actually there were more I-A games in the early I-AA era than from 1960 - 78. That time was almost exclusively Yankee Conf. and what are now PL schools, plus Rutgers. It was in 1980 the IL went to a ten-game schedule, and then many of them played Army and Navy for a few years. But after Princeton played Northwestern in '87 those games pretty much stopped again.


The question is whether they disappeared because it was a harm for BC, Syracuse, Army to schedule them (i.e. IL games are not bowl counters), or because the Ivy was purposely distancing themselves from "big-time" FBS football. It probably was a combination of both.I think BC has played 3 IL games since the 1940s, Syracuse stopped playing Cornell after '58, same with Penn and Penn St.

Either the bowl-counter rule wasn't in effect in the 80s (Army went to the '85 Peach Bowl with wins over Penn, Yale, and Colgate) or there were so many fewer bowl games then that the rule wasn't a big factor in scheduling.

[PAllen]

Hey, they could do it world cup style. Two groups of four play round robin within their group to determine seeding, then play an eight team single elimination bracket to get to the champ. Sounds absolutely thrilling! To satisfy those traditionalists, you could throw in a exhibition games against traditional opponents (100+ games played or Army or Navy). What a draw that would be. xrolleyesx

[RichH2]

Hey, they could do it world cup style. Two groups of four play round robin within their group to determine seeding, then play an eight team single elimination bracket to get to the champ. Sounds absolutely thrilling! To satisfy those traditionalists, you could throw in a exhibition games against traditional opponents (100+ games played or Army or Navy). What a draw that would be. xrolleyesx
Would be fun but it requires IL Presidents to think outside the box. They are only concerned with keeping the box the same as it always has been. Takes decades eventoagree to polish the darn thing :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ivy League presidents at a recent retreat trying to get a grip on college athletics

http://www.one-ring.co.uk/kb/img4932bfa00f047.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

Get real, and stop hijacking Ivy threads.

You got it, Ivy. Never again. xsalutex

[Green26]

Unfortunately, I suspect that there is considerable, but largely unstated, thinking by the some Ivy presidents, administrators, and faculty that would agree with the views expressed by this former Dartmouth dean of admissions about 10 years ago. See linked article below. My guess is that some Ivy presidents and senior administrators only tolerate sports like football and men's basketball, hockey and lacrosse, because there would be such an alumni outcry and pressure on them if they expressed similar views or moved to reduce the Ivy's support of these sports. The strategy seems to be provide only enough support to be credible or mediocre in various sports, while often talking about the supposedly big support and successes and other similar lip service. There are probably exceptions at various schools, which have leaders who actually believe in the true value of sports (other than just fund-raising and attracting alumni to follow school and return to campus) to at least a greater degree. I know that many administrators hate having to give so many preferred slots to some of these athletic teams, particularly football. They'd rather have those slots for other highly qualified academic types and other preferred type applicants.

“football programs represent a sacrifice to the academic quality and diversity of entering first-year classes.”

“Other institutions would do well to follow your lead … I wish this were not true but sadly football, and the culture that surrounds it, is antithetical to the academic mission of colleges such as ours. This is really a national problem, and it is a good thing that you are taking leadership on the issue. A close examination of intercollegiate athletics within the Ivy League would point to other sports in which the same phenomenon is apparent,”

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2005/01/20/letter-questions-value-of-ivy-football/

[Sader87]

Anyone still doubting whether Princeton is downgrading its nonconference schedule, the Princeton coach said he wants to go NESASC-like "Ivy Only" scheduling.

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/have-solution-to-scheduling-dilemma.html

Good God.....I just lost whatevah respect for Princeton football I still had......

[Green26]

What's wrong with playing scholarship schools? Some are strong; some are not. Play your traditional semi-rivals. Play area teams. Go on the road on a plane sometimes. Lose some games; learn something; have fune. Jeez, you don't have to play NDSU every year. The Princeton guy's idea is just plain dumb. I can't imagine any Ivy alum anywhere, except maybe him, who would want to do that. Don't schedule a bunch of crappy out of conference games, with teams no one has ever heard of. I absolutely hate it when my school schedules a bunch of unknowns. I have zero interest in those games. If there is concern about being competitive, use a few of the allocated slots each year to let the coaches bring in a few better players. For being Ivy league, and supposedly smart, the Ivies, or some of them, are surprisingly dumb about football.

[Sader87]

My take? The ivies in general are ticked off at the PL for going schollie.....it took away many "not so hard" OOC games, easier scheduling etc etc

A schollie PL will be a bettah product overall but we aren't talking Ohio St, Florida St et. al or even the perennial FCS powers these days. Holy Cross and Colgate were very strong for much of the 1980s but the Ivies played those teams relatively tough, beating them on more than one occasion in that era.

As I've noted here and elsewhere, I think the fairest balance between the two leagues has been achieved, that is:

PL: 60 schollies, AI, redshirting restrictions= an IL with the $$$/prestige/aid etc. to their football programs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From my perspective, what I don't appreciate is that the IL's insular policy means they don't care about the wider FCS world. It gives the impression that they don't care if Harvard is ranked in the FCS Top 25, or whether they're a good team, or a bad team, or a mediocre team.

What this does is gives Top 25 voters in, say, Iowa zero incentive to "learn more" about how truly good these teams are. That directly affects the PL's stature nationally. Though PL people know that Harvard, or some years, Princeton would give Kansas State a serious run for the money in one of their games, the rest of the world does not, and there's no incentive for the rest of the world to care about the quality of the IL, because the IL itself doesn't give a crap about how they look to the rest of the world.

If the IL goes to an eight game, insular schedule, it will prove that the IL really, truly doesn't care about being a part of the wider world of FCS. They should then subsequently be stripped of any votes for the FCS Top 25, and not be eligible for FCS postseason awards, making them truly an island.

[PAllen]

From my perspective, what I don't appreciate is that the IL's insular policy means they don't care about the wider FCS world. It gives the impression that they don't care if Harvard is ranked in the FCS Top 25, or whether they're a good team, or a bad team, or a mediocre team.

What this does is gives Top 25 voters in, say, Iowa zero incentive to "learn more" about how truly good these teams are. That directly affects the PL's stature nationally. Though PL people know that Harvard, or some years, Princeton would give Kansas State a serious run for the money in one of their games, the rest of the world does not, and there's no incentive for the rest of the world to care about the quality of the IL, because the IL itself doesn't give a crap about how they look to the rest of the world.

If the IL goes to an eight game, insular schedule, it will prove that the IL really, truly doesn't care about being a part of the wider world of FCS. They should then subsequently be stripped of any votes for the FCS Top 25, and not be eligible for FCS postseason awards, making them truly an island.

I've got it! The Ivies are actually thinking ahead. In a few years Div I will be made up of the P5 (+ND), the G5, a group of FCS "elites" consisting of the MVFC, CAA, Socon, OVC, Big Sky and Southland, then there will be everyone else. The Ivies just want to break off a la the P5 and be the E8. They're visionaries I tell you, visionaries!

[Pard4Life]

I'm kind of tired talking about the Ivy League all the time... xcoffeex

[bulldog10jw]

I'm kind of tired talking about the Ivy League all the time... xcoffeex

So you bump up the thread again?

[PAllen]

So you bump up the thread again?

Nah, let's just talk about how this effects the Patriot League :D

[RichH2]

We are not hijacking the thread ,just expanding its parameters a tad :)

[bulldog10jw]

We are not hijacking the thread ,just expanding its parameters a tad :)

If only Ivy League guys (and girls) responded to an Ivy League thread, the thread would die out very quickly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If only Ivy League guys (and girls) responded to an Ivy League thread, the thread would die out very quickly.

Yeah, both of you don't post enough.

[Lehigh'98]

If you look real close at long PL threads, 5-6 posters make 90% of the posts and one of them is a Citadel fan.

[Go Green]

Yeah, both of you don't post enough.

We will try to pick it up. After all, only about 1,600 more posts until we reach the Lafayette v. UNH thread! :)

[Go...gate]

Anyone still doubting whether Princeton is downgrading its nonconference schedule, the Princeton coach said he wants to go NESASC-like "Ivy Only" scheduling.

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/have-solution-to-scheduling-dilemma.html

Do what PU does in Baseball. But PU still plays a very strong non-conference sked in Baseball - Seton Hall, Rider, Rutgers, Fordham and other good NYC metro squads.

[Go...gate]

Good God.....I just lost whatevah respect for Princeton football I still had......

But that is exactly what is happening at Princeton. Lafayette and Lehigh will remain on the PU sked for the forseeable future, but Colgate (a series dating to 1911) is gone after 2015, and the tenth game on the schedule will be against a Davidson, Georgetown, SD or other non-scholarship school.

[Ivytalk]

Harvard 2040 OOC Schedule: Wellesley, Gallaudet, Our Lady of Faith

[DFW HOYA]

Comments from two Ivy coaches on the matter:

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/have-solution-to-scheduling-dilemma.html

[RichH2]

Thanjs DFW. Interesting differences between Bagnoli and Surace but I was struck by the underlying theme that IL cant compete with a 60. Schollie PL. Why ? A cursory view of IL recruits reveals quite a number of 2 and 3* athletes. Even with merit aid PL loses most H to Hs with the Ivies. IL cane have rosters of upwards of 120 ,PL at 92 now and at 90 in 16. IL irked by losing easy wins? Perhaps,but the conferences have been fairly even prior to merit aid.As 87 noted earlier,PL will never be the CAA. The real reason does not seem to be fear of PL. Just a temper tantrum?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think that is going to be a philosophical question that the whole league is going to be confronted with – exactly who to play. If you want to try to line yourself up with at least one team that is aid based on need – so philosophically it would be the same as the Ivy League – there’s not many options out there.
With the Patriot (League) going to scholarships, with the Wagners and the Albanys increasing to 63 scholarships (and) Monmouth going to 63, it just really has limited who you can play. So we are looking toward the Pioneer (Football) League, but in doing that there’s an expensive trip involved and you have to kind of weigh chartering a plane for $100,000 (against whether) you are better off playing Lafayette and Lehigh in our area, for an example, which are an hour-and-a-half bus rides.
So I think we are going to be in a philosophical dilemma as those teams keep adding scholarships, and eventually get to the full maximum, of exactly who do you play? Philosophically the league has to answer that because it is getting progressively harder to look at a schedule and say, 'This makes sense.'

Bagnoli's comments make me really scratch my head. This is the same guy who has kept up the Penn/Villanova series through thick and thin, and has competed strong with them. He can't really believe that drivel about "aligning with aid based on need". It makes it look more like a PL snit. I've also got to believe the PL's active TV deal, versus the IL's nonexistent TV deal, plays some sort of institutional envy card as well.

[Go Green]

Harvard 2040 OOC Schedule: Wellesley, Gallaudet, Our Lady of Faith

Gallaudet did ok last year. They had one guy who got looked at by the NFL.

[Go Green]

The real reason does not seem to be fear of PL. Just a temper tantrum?

My gut is that the Ivy has bad memories of 1980s/early 1990s Holy Cross scholarship teams repeatedly winning by multiple touchdowns against Ivy opponents.

[RichH2]

A point but those squads substantially different than the kids PL recruits now.

[Pard4Life]

I can see the Ivy just playing conference foes... 7 game schedule. The league already has an insular mentality i.e. "Pride to compete for the Ivy title," as if it's more significant that an FCS national championship. That is more or less their recruiting pitch, that and the job prospects. Kids don't care whether they play Lafayette, Villanova or Davidson OOC.. it's all about that Ivy title.

[Go Green]

I can see the Ivy just playing conference foes... 7 game schedule. The league already has an insular mentality i.e. "Pride to compete for the Ivy title," as if it's more significant that an FCS national championship. That is more or less their recruiting pitch, that and the job prospects. Kids don't care whether they play Lafayette, Villanova or Davidson OOC.. it's all about that Ivy title.

There's a huge gap between "it's all about that Ivy title" and "we're only playing seven games in a season."

Kids want to play football. And lots of it.

It's not like the Ivy sits their starters for the OOC games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's ironic is that the IL's insular attitude affects the OOC games, and makes them less exciting for everyone.

And it seems like - surprise - the IL is learning the exact wrong lesson from the cancellation of their NBCSN contract. In normal leagues, the reaction would be to play more teams nationally, create exciting matchups with Top 25 teams, and also enter the playoffs, the FCS' premier event. Instead, the reaction is to retreat within themselves to only play games that they themselves care about in front of no TV audience, because the audience for these games is continuously shrinking and dying off.

[Sader87]

A point but those squads substantially different than the kids PL recruits now.

Those HC squads were not comprised of shaky academic students etc. Actually, HC was getting some kids that turned down the Ivies to get a full scholarship at HC.

The notion that HC was running some sort of outlaw program back then couldn't be further from the truth. It was a combination of very good coaching, great recruiting and a history of playing at a higher level (still playing teams like BC and Army annually etc) that led to its success at the 1-AA level in the 1980s.

[RichH2]

Those HC squads were not comprised of shaky academic students etc. Actually, HC was getting some kids that turned down the Ivies to get a full scholarship at HC.

The notion that HC was running some sort of outlaw program back then couldn't be further from the truth. It was a combination of very good coaching, great recruiting and a history of playing at a higher level (still playing teams like BC and Army annually etc) that led to its success at the 1-AA level in the 1980s.
Dont get your panties in a bunch :). Wasn't implying that at all. HC back then had access to and recruited a good number of what we would call FBS recruits today. A different world back then. While we get some now with schollies,none of us,cept Fordham , have more than a few. Even when we get to 60 unlikely all of us will match Cross' talent back then,certainly not on as consistently.

[Ivytalk]

My gut is that the Ivy has bad memories of 1980s/early 1990s Holy Cross scholarship teams repeatedly winning by multiple touchdowns against Ivy opponents.

I respectfully disagree. I think the issue is the relatively better performance of PL teams against the IL since 2000, a trend that could only increase with PL schollies. Holy Cross always played Harvard tough at Fitton and won more often than not. Before last year's 3OT win, Harvard had lost 3 straight in Worcester. Make no mistake: the Ivy coaches are pussies on this issue and mouthpieces for their gutless presidents. There, I said it.

[World]

As I've noted here and elsewhere, I think the fairest balance between the two leagues has been achieved, that is:

PL: 60 schollies, AI, redshirting restrictions= an IL with the $$$/prestige/aid etc. to their football programs.


Good point

[Go...gate]

Just seems like the Ivies are going to extremes to preserve a distinction without a difference. The Ivy sets aside slots and gives out money to athletes just like the PL does. The PL's changing what that money was called did not make them impure or outlaw programs.

[Ivytalk]

Just seems like the Ivies are going to extremes to preserve a distinction without a difference. The Ivy sets aside slots and gives out money to athletes just like the PL does. The PL's changing what that money was called did not make them impure or outlaw programs.

I agree 100%.

[Ivytalk]

Gallaudet did ok last year. They had one guy who got looked at by the NFL.

Fine. Substitute Savannah State, then!

[Model Citizen]

What private schools have never played an Ivy in football and don't have one on the 2014 schedule? Narrowing it to current FCS members that have been in D-I at least 20 years (since 1994), I come up with...

Drake
Howard
Furman
Liberty
St. Francis
Samford

Any others?

[DFW HOYA]

Any others?

Robert Morris

[Model Citizen]

Robert Morris
The NCAA record book has Robert Morris entering D-i in 1998. At any rate, it's a small list.

I'm not surprised the Ivies haven't scheduled Liberty...but Drake and Furman are both closing in on 600 all-time wins, and they're reasonably respected schools in their regions. Maybe those regions aren't of interest to the Ivy League. ?

[aceinthehole]

The NCAA record book has Robert Morris entering D-i in 1998. At any rate, it's a small list.

I'm not surprised the Ivies haven't scheduled Liberty...but Drake and Furman are both closing in on 600 all-time wins, and they're reasonably respected schools in their regions. Maybe those regions aren't of interest to the Ivy League. ?

Yep, I think the issue is that Ivy often schedule home/home deals and I don't think Drake or Furman are located in recruiting or alumni hotspots. We see San Diego and Jacksonville ontheir schedule not because of their academic profile or football pedigree, but becauseof their location.

[DFW HOYA]

The NCAA record book has Robert Morris entering D-i in 1998. At any rate, it's a small list.


RMU joined in 1994. They are celebrating its 20th anniversary this fall.

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/northeast/robert_morris/yearly_results.php?year=1994

[Model Citizen]

RMU joined in 1994. They are celebrating its 20th anniversary this fall.

http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/northeast/robert_morris/yearly_results.php?year=1994


Congrats to them. I'm looking forward to their game against Dayton this fall.

[bigbluebulldogs]

Posted at the Ivy League web site:

Brown's three non-conference opponents from 2015-17 will be Bryant, URI, and Stetson.
Columbia has added Georgetown to go along with Fordham, with Wagner in 2015 and Marist in '16 and '17.
Cornell has Bucknell and Colgate each year, with Sacred Heart in '15 and '16 and Delaware in 2017
Dartmouth has Georgetown, Sacred Heart, and Central Connecticut in 2015, with UNH in '16 and the rest still TBA.
Harvard has secured multi-year deals with Georgetown, Lafayette, and URI.
Penn has Lehigh, Fordham, and a third TBA after Villanova rolls off in 2015.
Princeton has a rotation which variously includes two each with Lafayette, Lehigh and Georgetown, plus Colgate in '15 and San Diego in '17
Yale: Two each with Colgate and Lehigh, plus Maine ('15), and Fordham ('16), one TBA.

http://static.psbin.com/4/a/vjio6fzftmifzg/14fbguide-Intro.pdf


Yale and Harvard should stop fooling around and re-introduce UConn and UMass into their respective football schedules. It would provide good local interest, and actually put fans into both the Yale Bowl and Harvard Stadium. As it stands now, unless Yale/Harvard play each other, they draw flies as far as attendance (this year's 2014 Yale/Army game not withstanding). Princeton should play Rutgers, Dartmouth entertain UNH, Brown vs. URI (Good God - why is Harvard playing URI?), and so on.

[bonarae]

Yale and Harvard should stop fooling around and re-introduce UConn and UMass into their respective football schedules. It would provide good local interest, and actually put fans into both the Yale Bowl and Harvard Stadium. As it stands now, unless Yale/Harvard play each other, they draw flies as far as attendance (this year's 2014 Yale/Army game not withstanding). Princeton should play Rutgers, Dartmouth entertain UNH, Brown vs. URI (Good God - why is Harvard playing URI?), and so on.

The two previous planned Yale/Army matches were called off due to us being non-counters for FBS. Army petitioned the NCAA to keep the centennial game on their schedule. UMass-Harvard football series ended back in 1988 in a violent manner. Yale-UConn ended when the Huskies decided to move up(?).

[aceinthehole]

The two previous planned Yale/Army matches were called off due to us being non-counters for FBS. Army petitioned the NCAA to keep the centennial game on their schedule. UMass-Harvard football series ended back in 1988 in a violent manner. Yale-UConn ended when the Huskies decided to move up(?).

Practically, the series ended because UConn announced plans to reclassify to I-A beginning in 2000. However, Yale-UConn had become non-competitive for dozens of years while both teams were playing in I-AA.

Yale holds a 32-17 advantage all-time, but the Huskies have won 14 of the last 16 games played (1982-1998). All but 1 of the 49 games has been played at the Yale Bowl.

UConn would likely play Yale occasionally if: 1) the Bulldogs were a bowl counter, and 2) any games would be played in E. Hartford. Since neither of those things are going to happen in the near future, it is a moot point.

[Sader87]

The two previous planned Yale/Army matches were called off due to us being non-counters for FBS. Army petitioned the NCAA to keep the centennial game on their schedule. UMass-Harvard football series ended back in 1988 in a violent manner. Yale-UConn ended when the Huskies decided to move up(?).

Trying to remembah what happened there...can you clarify???

A Harvard-UNH game in the future would be tremendous imo.

[Gordon Shumway]

Trying to remembah what happened there...can you clarify???

A Harvard-UNH game in the future would be tremendous imo.

Just doesn't make any sense regionally. They are a whole hour and a half apart. :D

They are closer to Durham than Dartmouth.

[CHIP72]

Yale and Harvard should stop fooling around and re-introduce UConn and UMass into their respective football schedules. It would provide good local interest, and actually put fans into both the Yale Bowl and Harvard Stadium. As it stands now, unless Yale/Harvard play each other, they draw flies as far as attendance (this year's 2014 Yale/Army game not withstanding). Princeton should play Rutgers, Dartmouth entertain UNH, Brown vs. URI (Good God - why is Harvard playing URI?), and so on.

That's one nice thing about Philadelphia sports and more broadly the legacy of the Big Five - local schools often play one another even if it doesn't always make sense on paper. Villanova and Penn have played the last number of years, and although the Wildcats have dominated the series (albeit with some games pretty close when both teams were good), I think Penn's willingness to play Villanova has helped the Quakers in their other games.

Though it isn't Ivy League, it is also a very good thing IMO when Temple and Villanova play in football. Actually, if Temple isn't going to play Villanova as their annual Division I-AA opponent, I'd like to see the Owls play Penn, even though Temple should have no problem beating the Quakers. (If they aren't going to play either Villanova or Penn, I'd like to see Temple ONLY play Delaware, Princeton, Lehigh, Lafayette, or maybe Delaware State or Monmouth as the one per year Division I-AA game.)

[Go Green]

A Harvard-UNH game in the future would be tremendous imo.

I've been advocating for such a game for years....

[Go Green]

I think Penn's willingness to play Villanova has helped the Quakers in their other games.



The Penn student paper does not agree.

http://www.thedp.com/article/2014/09/wenik-penn-football-stop-playing-villanova

[West Coast Crimson]

UMass-Harvard football series ended back in 1988 in a violent manner.

I'd love to hear a bit more about that. I was a student in the 90s, so whatever happened was before my time.

[Ivytalk]

The two previous planned Yale/Army matches were called off due to us being non-counters for FBS. Army petitioned the NCAA to keep the centennial game on their schedule. UMass-Harvard football series ended back in 1988 in a violent manner. Yale-UConn ended when the Huskies decided to move up(?).

Violent manner? Are we talking brawls or riots? Harvard lost, 45-28. But nobody was expelled.

[bonarae]

Violent manner? Are we talking brawls or riots? Harvard lost, 45-28. But nobody was expelled.

To quote the other UMass posters who posted here about this particular game years before, it was on the street that the violence happened after that game. So far, I haven't been able to find in the Harvard Crimson nor the NY Times.

[UAalum72]

To quote the other UMass posters who posted here about this particular game years before, it was on the street that the violence happened after that game. So far, I haven't been able to find in the Harvard Crimson nor the NY Times.
That week's Crimson Football Notebook didn't mention any violence.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1988/9/28/the-football-notebook-pthe-ivy-league/

[Sader87]

I think it was something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf0OFZexRGs