Patriot League stealing a bid

[ccd494]

For all the talk that the Pioneer was going to take a bid from a worthy team, the Patriot is about to do the same. If Fordham were eligible to be the autobid, that is a one bid league. At large teams don't lose to Bucknell.

[mainejeff]

This type of thing should not be allowed by the NCAA. If Fordham can't play by Patriot rules that makes them ineligible for the league championship........then they should not be eligible for an NCAA bid either.

[MTfan4life]

The combined record of the two remaining undefeated PL teams are 5-10. I'm sure Lehigh will climb back into it, it's just a fun stat for the time being, haha.

[Franks Tanks]

This type of thing should not be allowed by the NCAA. If Fordham can't play by Patriot rules that makes them ineligible for the league championship........then they should not be eligible for an NCAA bid either.

That is stupid. Fordham is in compliance with all NCAA rules, and should be eligible for an at large bid.

[RichH2]

Why jeff. Fordham violated no NCAA rules to warrant being excluded from playoffs. Nor did they violate any PL rules. Ineligible pursuant to their agreement with PL allowing them to remain in PL. FU already at 60+ schollies while rest of PL at 15. They are eligible next yr and are likely to win PL as they will still be at 60 while rest are at 30,most frosh and sophs.

[smilo]

I don't get the point of this thread. Lehigh still controls its own destiny. If the Hawks lose another game, I can't see them stealing an at large bid at 8-3 with two PL losses. So many of those wins are close games against bad teams. Lehigh is going to need the auto, and I expect Lehigh will win out to get it.

[LehighU11]

If a 4-7 (4-1) Lafayette were to win the PL without a single OOC win or 5-7 (4-1) Colgate with one OOC win against bottom-feeder Cornell, I will have a tough time defending against your argument. At this point, that looks likely with Lehigh losing their QB yesterday. However, it would be hard to call it stealing a playoff berth if a 9-2 (4-1) Lehigh wins the AQ with wins against a playoff team in UNH and 10-1 Ivy champ Princeton.

I think you'll find several teams in this year's expanded field with a no-show/WTF loss. Lehigh sure hasn't looked like a playoff team 2 of their past 3 games against Columbia and Bucknell.

[DFW HOYA]

That is stupid. Fordham is in compliance with all NCAA rules, and should be eligible for an at large bid.

Agreed. And realistically, Fordham is in compliance with all PL rules and should be eligible for the autobid.

[RabidRabbit]

This type of thing should not be allowed by the NCAA. If Fordham can't play by Patriot rules that makes them ineligible for the league championship........then they should not be eligible for an NCAA bid either.


This is the kettle calling pot issue. ODU last year in the CAA, App St. and Ga So this season. UCA in the Southland back during transition. Fordham is making it in on their own "independent" schedule. The Patriot League making a decision that a team is not compliant with their requirements. My question is why is a fellow A10 team not with the other A10 teams, which are part of the CAA football conference?

[TheValleyRaider]

Our long-awaited plan to become a 2-bid league once again has finally come to fruition... xcoolx xhighfivex

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If a 4-7 (4-1) Lafayette were to win the PL without a single OOC win or 5-7 (4-1) Colgate with one OOC win against bottom-feeder Cornell, I will have a tough time defending against your argument. At this point, that looks likely with Lehigh losing their QB yesterday. However, it would be hard to call it stealing a playoff berth if a 9-2 (4-1) Lehigh wins the AQ with wins against a playoff team in UNH and 10-1 Ivy champ Princeton.

I think you'll find several teams in this year's expanded field with a no-show/WTF loss. Lehigh sure hasn't looked like a playoff team 2 of their past 3 games against Columbia and Bucknell.

Well said. A lot of football to be played. It might get ugly if the PL sends a team with a losing record. BUT, a 9-2 Lehigh squad with wins over UNH and Princeton would be respectable. Colgate at 7-5 wouldn't be terrible on paper but their performances against the "power conferences" the last 10 years have been ugly....

I think the biggest concern for LU is the defense not QB. McHale will be pretty good if they have to turn to him imo. The defense however, might be beyond repair.....

[JoltinJoe]

This type of thing should not be allowed by the NCAA. If Fordham can't play by Patriot rules that makes them ineligible for the league championship........then they should not be eligible for an NCAA bid either.

This is a silly position.

For all intents and purposes, Fordham this year is an independent with a scheduling agreement with the Patriot League teams. As an "independent," it has one way into the playoffs: an at-large bid.

This thread is pointless. The PL isn't stealing a bid. Its regular season champion is going to the playoffs. Fordham, assuming it makes the playoffs, is going as an independent.

[Neighbor2]

NDSU brilliance coming in 3 . . .2 . . .1

[JMUNJ08]

This is a silly position.

For all intents and purposes, Fordham this year is an independent with a scheduling agreement with the Patriot League teams. As an "independent," it has one way into the playoffs: an at-large bid.

This thread is pointless. The PL isn't stealing a bid. Its regular season champion is going to the playoffs. Fordham, assuming it makes the playoffs, is going as an independent.

The point is if you are looking for a solid representative, the PL has really only Fordham & Lehigh. Yes, the regular season champs gets to go in and is not 'stealing' a bid. But, in all seriousness, no one would say Colgate is a playoff team...

Another cool stat to say Lehigh might be a 'bid stealer' as well, when was the last time a 6-2 team was outscored in the aggregate?

Lehigh - 255
Opp - 258

[dystopiamembrane]

Auto-bids are the problem. The tournament should include the top 24 teams.

[UNHWildcat18]

To be honest, I think the rams deserve that bid. This is why it's called any given sat, everyone yelled at me when I said I still thought unh>Lu just played a bad game and Lu played a lot better. Then LU goes and loses to Bucknell.... Still think LU is a better team just everything went wrong. Playoff teams have occasional losses to non playoff teams. It happens. Hopefully LU can win out for the sake of the PL and UNH's playoff hopes. But I do agree it would really suck to see a .500 pl champ go in over Lehigh. They just have to win out. Hope your backup can play and your defense steps up for the rest of the season

[TheValleyRaider]

Auto-bids are the problem. The tournament should include the top 24 teams.

At-larges are the problem. If you can't be the best team in your conference, why should you be considered as a possibility for the best team in the nation?

[ColgateTD]

Ridiculous discussion. This is why they play the games - to determine a champion. Who's to say Bucknell couldn't win after what they did this past weekend (if the cards fall right). Assuming LU will win out and take the title is a little like counting chickens. The title is up for grabs and most any team could take it. That's what makes the PL the fun place that it is. It is what it is. We should not be talking about FU - that's a separate issue.

[dystopiamembrane]

At-larges are the problem. If you can't be the best team in your conference, why should you be considered as a possibility for the best team in the nation?
If you're not doing anything wrong, why would you care if the gov't. spies on you?

[LehighU11]

Auto-bids are the problem. The tournament should include the top 24 teams.

Let me guess: after Portland State's decisive and impressive win yesterday, the computer model you consult and claim as your own has them in the top 24? They must be the best 2 D-1 win team in the nation.

[dystopiamembrane]

Let me guess: after Portland State's decisive and impressive win yesterday, the computer model you consult and claim as your own has them in the top 24? They must be the best 2 D-1 win team in the nation.
I don't claim it as my own.
And, no, Portland State sucks. I'm not on here to rep PSU. They happen to be my FCS club, but that doesn't color my opinions.
There are 24 entries in the FCS tournament.

[Lehigh'98]

Auto-bids are the problem. The tournament should include the top 24 teams.


So you wouldn't allow most mid majors in the NCAA tournaments? Just the best 64?

[dystopiamembrane]

So you wouldn't allow most mid majors in the NCAA tournaments? Just the best 64?
That's how I feel, yes.

[LehighU11]

That's how I feel, yes.

There's a problem with that thinking, however. Wagner last year is an excellent example. Many viewed them as being an undeserving autobid from the NEC, which is viewed by many as one of the 2 weakest autobid conferences in FCS. They beat an undefeated league champion, Colgate, and then headed out west to semi-finalist EWU and led them for a good portion of the game.

When there are 24 spots in the field, there is no reason to claim that a conference champ shouldn't get a shot at the playoffs. A team that finishes 4th/5th in their conference has already proven that they are not elite among their own peers, let alone on a national level.

[dystopiamembrane]

There's a problem with that thinking, however. Wagner last year is an excellent example. Many viewed them as being an undeserving autobid from the NEC, which is viewed by many as one of the 2 weakest autobid conferences in FCS. They beat an undefeated league champion, Colgate, and then headed out west to semi-finalist EWU and led them for a good portion of the game.Not sure how this shows a problem with my thinking.


When there are 24 spots in the field, there is no reason to claim that a conference champ shouldn't get a shot at the playoffs. A team that finishes 4th/5th in their conference has already proven that they are not elite among their own peers, let alone on a national level.In my opinion, if the regular season ended today, there are 5 MVFC, 5 CAA, 4 Big Sky, 3 OVC, 3 SLC, and 1 each from SOCON, Big South, Patriot and MEAC who should be given a tournament spot, noting that the Ivy would refuse any offer.

[Twentysix]

If a 4-7 (4-1) Lafayette were to win the PL without a single OOC win or 5-7 (4-1) Colgate with one OOC win against bottom-feeder Cornell, I will have a tough time defending against your argument. At this point, that looks likely with Lehigh losing their QB yesterday. However, it would be hard to call it stealing a playoff berth if a 9-2 (4-1) Lehigh wins the AQ with wins against a playoff team in UNH and 10-1 Ivy champ Princeton.

I think you'll find several teams in this year's expanded field with a no-show/WTF loss. Lehigh sure hasn't looked like a playoff team 2 of their past 3 games against Columbia and Bucknell.

In what world is UNH a playoff team?

They will probably go 5-6.

They have a pretty good chance of losing to W&M and JMU and will very very likely lose to Maine...

[MplsBison]

Agreed. And realistically, Fordham is in compliance with all PL rules and should be eligible for the autobid.

The argument is perfectly valid. Patriot deserves one team in the payoffs this year: Fordham. That's your team. That's it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The argument is perfectly valid. Patriot deserves one team in the payoffs this year: Fordham. That's your team. That's it.






http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9465/au99.jpg

[Lehigh'98]

The argument is perfectly valid. Patriot deserves one team in the payoffs this year: Fordham. That's your team. That's it.

You can argue til you are blue in the face and you may even have a point, but nothing will change.

[LehighU11]

In what world is UNH a playoff team?

They will probably go 5-6.

They have a pretty good chance of losing to W&M and JMU and will very very likely lose to Maine...

Note I said"if". And I feel that UNH has a fair chance of beating W&M and a very good chance against JMU at home. Could surprise Maine at home as well, where the Wildcats have yet to lose this season. If they win three of their remaining 4 games, they're 7-4 and 6-2 in the CAA. In that scenario, UNH is all but a lock to make the field.

I think we can expect 4-5 CAA teams to make the playoffs. Towson and Maine are close to certain. Villanova has 2 conference losses already, and they have 0 remaining home games, with a loss to UNH. W&M and JMU each have two CAA losses already, with Towson remaining on both schedules. Delaware was slaughtered by Maine and will likely have 3 conference losses. UNH is in good shape for another run.

[blukeys]

Why jeff. Fordham violated no NCAA rules to warrant being excluded from playoffs. Nor did they violate any PL rules. Ineligible pursuant to their agreement with PL allowing them to remain in PL. FU already at 60+ schollies while rest of PL at 15. They are eligible next yr and are likely to win PL as they will still be at 60 while rest are at 30,most frosh and sophs.

What a load of Patriot League crap. The Patriot League for the most part offers 50+ equivalencies for most teams but Georgetown. The only difference between Needs based Grants and scholarships is some paperwork and the name. The current Lehigh team has 50 + players getting full rides for playing football. All of the holier than thou BS that comes from PL apologists is just pure hypocrisy.

[bison137]

What a load of Patriot League crap. The Patriot League for the most part offers 50+ equivalencies for most teams but Georgetown. The only difference between Needs based Grants and scholarships is some paperwork and the name. The current Lehigh team has 50 + players getting full rides for playing football. All of the holier than thou BS that comes from PL apologists is just pure hypocrisy.



Not "for the most part". Not Bucknell, Holy Cross, Georgetown, and Lafayette (recently). And there is a significant difference between finding players who qualify for significant need-based aid - and then having them run the FAFSA gauntlet - as opposed to being able to offer scholarships to players with no strings attached. There is a MUCH bigger pool of available players.

[ElCid]

This has got to be one of the most silly threads yet. Two issues, first is the silly notion that some conferences should not be invited at all. There are X number of conferences and and they all get one auto bid. I have never had a problem with this, scholarships or no. What is the problem? The at-large bids take care of the quality issue if any. The good conferences will get extra bids as deserving. If you don't want to play by those rules, start your own division. But these are the rules that were decided upon. And if your school/conference did not agree, well, that's called democarcy. If most want to change the rules, it will be changed. Anyway, it takes care of itself on the field in the end, one way or the other.

And that the PL somehow is stealing a bid is ridiculous. I do not believe anyone thinks Fordam is not deserving of a bid. If they do they are on crack. But why should they have an advantage over conf opponents? Just because they happen to be out front on the scholly thing they should be penalized? This probably coming from the same people who have shouted over and over that in order to have an invite, they need to step up and get scholarships. Which way you want it? Can't have it both ways. There have been a lot of instances where other conferences have had transition teams that either got screwed or rewarded due to transition issues. This is called life, get over it.

And people are screaming even with additional spots!? These types would be screaming if the field were extended to 32. They would be mad their 6-5 team did not make it instead a Pioneer or PL champ. At some point you sound pathetic.

[DFW HOYA]

Not "for the most part". Not Bucknell, Holy Cross, Georgetown, and Lafayette (recently). And there is a significant difference between finding players who qualify for significant need-based aid - and then having them run the FAFSA gauntlet - as opposed to being able to offer scholarships to players with no strings attached. There is a MUCH bigger pool of available players.

Agreed, esp. for Georgetown. Whether Georgetown offers just 1.5 equivalancies (as one poster claimed) or closer to 10-15, there's a significant difference for the Hoyas to overcome versus scholarship offers.

http://uadmissions.georgetown.edu/firstyear/studentprofile/

[World]

Our long-awaited plan to become a 2-bid league once again has finally come to fruition... xcoolx xhighfivex

Yes, Fordham and Lehigh will go into the playoffs this year

[Twentysix]

Yes, Fordham and Lehigh will go into the playoffs this year

You mean Fordham and the AQ... Lehigh got curbstomped yesterday.

[dystopiamembrane]

You mean Fordham and the AQ... Lehigh got curbstomped yesterday.Lehigh is favored in its remaining games and controls its own destiny.

[RichH2]

What a load of Patriot League crap. The Patriot League for the most part offers 50+ equivalencies for most teams but Georgetown. The only difference between Needs based Grants and scholarships is some paperwork and the name. The current Lehigh team has 50 + players getting full rides for playing football. All of the holier than thou BS that comes from PL apologists is just pure hypocrisy.
Not even close to true. Other than schollie frosh,there are very few full rides,most are paying something. Realistically,there is a real difference particularly to middle class families. Poor kids agree not that much difference. Given academic standards it does broaden pool of possible recruits for PL schools. We never claimed to be PFL type conference. A need based 3/4 scholarship loses out every time to aCAA full ride.

[Twentysix]

Lehigh is favored in its remaining games and controls its own destiny.

Are you a real person, or a program that is attempting to perpetuate the use of Massey ratings?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You mean Fordham and the AQ... Lehigh got curbstomped yesterday.

IF, big IF, Lehigh wins out the tone will be much different, or so I hope, a month from now. 9-2 and a 3 game winning streak entering the playoffs will look pretty good. Yesterday will, for the most part, be remembered as nothing more than a serious head shaker. No one, seriously no one, saw that coming. After 15 years of dominance over the Bison, it was easy to take it for granted.

I just hope whoever wins the AQ represents the league in a positive way...

[dystopiamembrane]

Are you a real person, or a program that is attempting to perpetuate the use of Massey ratings?I don't really understand your concern. A person needs something on which to base her opinions. I believe Kenneth Massey does a hell of a job. What do you use?
Also, do you not favor Lehigh against Holy Cross, Colgate and Lafayette?

[LehighU11]

Yes, Fordham and Lehigh will go into the playoffs this year

Yeah, I'm thinking we'll be fortunate to get any more than one win the rest of the season. Holy Cross appears to be a probable win, but playing at Colgate and returning to host Lafayette the following week doesn't look too promising at the moment. Miraculously after starting 1-5 with 0 OOC wins, Lafayette is the overwhelming favorite at the moment. Go figure...

[Twentysix]

I don't really understand your concern. A person needs something on which to base her opinions. I believe Kenneth Massey does a hell of a job. What do you use?
Also, do you not favor Lehigh against Holy Cross, Colgate and Lafayette?

I am not saying Lehigh won't win the AQ... But I am saying that Lehigh no longer has it all locked up... it is surely an open race at this point.

I would say anything can happen in any of those 3 games...Especially in the Lafayette game because it is a rivalry.

[dystopiamembrane]

...But I am saying that Lehigh no longer has it all locked up...Just for the record, I did not say that Lehigh had "it all locked up."

[RichH2]

Yeah, I'm thinking we'll be fortunate to get any more than one win the rest of the season. Holy Cross appears to be a probable win, but playing at Colgate and returning to host Lafayette the following week doesn't look too promising at the moment. Miraculously after starting 1-5 with 0 OOC wins, Lafayette is the overwhelming favorite at the moment. Go figure...
If we show up for any like yesterday, 0-3 likely. Think Andy will get team back, no BB 2-1 best IMO.. Pards likely loss either way, but w BB we might pull it out.
Would love if D could be fixed but that will take a miracle.

[Twentysix]

Just for the record, I did not say that Lehigh had "it all locked up."

The post you responded to was a response to a post that says Lehigh has it all locked up.. Go back and read it.

[Lehigh'98]

We need to become a more run based team w BB out. Not sure we have the Oline for that. Even if we do squeak in the playoffs, we are looking at getting destroyed in the first game if we play a good team. Our defense has been an undersized no show all season.

[dystopiamembrane]

The post you responded to was a response to a post that says Lehigh has it all locked up.. Go back and read it.I merely stated that Lehigh was favored in its remaining games and controlled its own destiny.

[Pard4Life]

This thread prompted me to think of this because it uses the same logic:

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/1461048064/hA2B1D90F/

[Twentysix]

I responded to the following. "You mean Fordham and the AQ... Lehigh got curbstomped yesterday."

Which was a response to
Yes, Fordham and Lehigh will go into the playoffs this year

Lol, reading comprehension for robots isn't so good apparently.

[dystopiamembrane]

Which was a response to

Lol, reading comprehension for robots isn't so good apparently.I have begun to believe that there are a lot of dicks on here.

[Dog Bone]

This has got to be one of the most silly threads yet. Two issues, first is the silly notion that some conferences should not be invited at all. There are X number of conferences and and they all get one auto bid. I have never had a problem with this, scholarships or no. What is the problem? The at-large bids take care of the quality issue if any. The good conferences will get extra bids as deserving. If you don't want to play by those rules, start your own division. But these are the rules that were decided upon. And if your school/conference did not agree, well, that's called democarcy. If most want to change the rules, it will be changed. Anyway, it takes care of itself on the field in the end, one way or the other.

And that the PL somehow is stealing a bid is ridiculous. I do not believe anyone thinks Fordam is not deserving of a bid. If they do they are on crack. But why should they have an advantage over conf opponents? Just because they happen to be out front on the scholly thing they should be penalized? This probably coming from the same people who have shouted over and over that in order to have an invite, they need to step up and get scholarships. Which way you want it? Can't have it both ways. There have been a lot of instances where other conferences have had transition teams that either got screwed or rewarded due to transition issues. This is called life, get over it.

And people are screaming even with additional spots!? These types would be screaming if the field were extended to 32. They would be mad their 6-5 team did not make it instead a Pioneer or PL champ. At some point you sound pathetic.







Agreed.....my GA, friend. Every conference should get a shot!

[dystopiamembrane]

Agreed.....my GA, friend. Every conference should get a shot!
Every conference gets a shot. It's called the regular season.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

From who are they really stealing a bid? There are 24 teams, 8 seeds. If you aren't worth a seed, your playoff bid is tenuous anyway. They, like the Pioneer winner will likely get murdered by an at-large in the first round anyway.

[dystopiamembrane]

From who are they really stealing a bid? There are 24 teams, 8 seeds. If you aren't worth a seed, your playoff bid is tenuous anyway. They, like the Pioneer winner will likely get murdered by an at-large in the first round anyway.I personally find it interesting that folks are arguing that the tournament should not be the best 24 teams in the subdivision.

[Lehigh'98]

I have begun to believe that there are a lot of dicks on here.

You must learn the rules of AGS

1. NDSU fans are all knowing and never wrong. If you disagree or suggest any team will hang with them you will be cyber raped by a hord of Bison.
2. The MVFC is the toughest conf in the history of football.
3. All hail ye mighty Bison.
4. Any suggestion of Lehigh being decent is to be dealt with swiftly and those that do are put on a govt watchlist.
5. Any win by a non power conf over a power conf is a lucky win.
6. Chatty has 1 fan who thinks highly of them.
7. All other questions, refer to rules 1-3.

[taper]

There's a problem with that thinking, however. Wagner last year is an excellent example. Many viewed them as being an undeserving autobid from the NEC, which is viewed by many as one of the 2 weakest autobid conferences in FCS. They beat an undefeated league champion, Colgate, and then headed out west to semi-finalist EWU and led them for a good portion of the game.

When there are 24 spots in the field, there is no reason to claim that a conference champ shouldn't get a shot at the playoffs. A team that finishes 4th/5th in their conference has already proven that they are not elite among their own peers, let alone on a national level.

Having memory problems? Colgate had 3 losses in the regular season, including the last place MVFC. Wagner led EWU for just over 10 minutes overall, and never by more than 5 points. I wouldn't call this a "good amount". Wagner was not a playoff caliber team that year, and neither was Colgate. There are definite instances where the 4th or 5th best team of a conference is head and shoulders above the winner of another but stayed home. There's no attempt at parity in conferences or scheduling in college football like the NFL, some are just better than others.

[Dog Bone]

From who are they really stealing a bid? There are 24 teams, 8 seeds. If you aren't worth a seed, your playoff bid is tenuous anyway. They, like the Pioneer winner will likely get murdered by an at-large in the first round anyway.




Absolutely....its not stealing a bid from anyone. The best team is going to win the tournament and if you want a guaranteed shot you should win your conference.

[ElCid]

Every conference gets a shot. It's called the regular season.

That's correct, and if you can't win your conference, maybe you should not get in. Since there is entirely too much subjectivity in at-large bids, having an auto-bid guarantees that teams do not unfairly get turned away. It is a beautiful system, kind of like the states having two senators and representatives based on population. It is a compromise that keeps everyone content. And the computer ratings are crap for determining anything to do with the playoffs. I know you don't want to hear that, but like any computer system it is garbage in, garbage out. A good programer can create an algorithm that unfairly treats certain teams compared to others. I actually like the computer ratings to a point, that is just as a data point, and not a determining factor of actual ratings.

[ElCid]

From who are they really stealing a bid? There are 24 teams, 8 seeds. If you aren't worth a seed, your playoff bid is tenuous anyway. They, like the Pioneer winner will likely get murdered by an at-large in the first round anyway.

Wow, we agree on somethingxthumbsupx

[dystopiamembrane]

And the computer ratings are crap for determining anything to do with the playoffs. I know you don't want to hear that, but like any computer system it is garbage in, garbage out. A good programer can create an algorithm that unfairly treats certain teams compared to others.I would argue that we all agree to a specific ranking algorithm and use that to determine the entrants into the tournament.

[ccd494]

I'm not saying the Patriot League shouldn't have an autobid. I'm saying that bid should be Fordham.

[ngineer]

What a load of Patriot League crap. The Patriot League for the most part offers 50+ equivalencies for most teams but Georgetown. The only difference between Needs based Grants and scholarships is some paperwork and the name. The current Lehigh team has 50 + players getting full rides for playing football. All of the holier than thou BS that comes from PL apologists is just pure hypocrisy.

That statement is a bunch of crap. There are hardly any football players getting full rides at $57,000 a year. Those that are getting financial aid are getting 1/4, 1/2/ 3/4 , some getting none, and a few full.

[RichH2]

xoopsx

OK OK. I'll confess thjs was all a nefarious plot hatched by the PL 3 years ago to snag multiple bids this year.xsmhx

[PAllen]

I personally find it interesting that folks are arguing that the tournament should not be the best 24 teams in the subdivision.

The issue is with how do you guarantee you get the best 24? If you win your conference, you are at least the best in your conference. Anything else is an opinion, and opinions are like... well, you know....

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Same thing with 68 teams in basketball. Keeps the smaller programs happy while not tipping the apple cart for the biggrr programs.

[dystopiamembrane]

The issue is with how do you guarantee you get the best 24? If you win your conference, you are at least the best in your conference. Anything else is an opinion, and opinions are like... well, you know....I would argue that we all agree to a specific ranking algorithm and use that to determine the entrants into the tournament.

[ElCid]

xoopsx

OK OK. I'll confess thjs was all a nefarious plot hatched by the PL 3 years ago to snag multiple bids this year.xsmhx

Really good forethoughtxlolx

[ElCid]

I would argue that we all agree to a specific ranking algorithm and use that to determine the entrants into the tournament.

While I applaud your intent, I do not think it is realistsic. Besides, I like the fact that all conferences are included. To exclude anyone would not be in the best interest of the division. I would entertain such a path for the at-larges but not for the auto-bids. The problem would always be how to start the ratings. The biggest problem I have with the Sagarin ratings, is the starting ratings are out of whack. That skews the rest of the year. Otherwise how do you account for the entirely too high Ivy rankings. I have seen this for 30 years. No offense against the Ivy, they have a couple good teams each year, but they are entirely too high, and their insulated schedule allows the perpetuation of this high ranking.

[RichH2]

Really good forethoughtxlolx

xrolleyesx We try,all that silly academic stuff comes in handy for nefarious plotsxwhistlex

Well, I'mgonna leave these guys to reconfiguring the selection process for the umpteenth time.

[ElCid]

I'm not saying the Patriot League shouldn't have an autobid. I'm saying that bid should be Fordham.


I can understand that sentiment. But if all the rules are being followed, I see no issue if they are not the auto-bid. I have no problem seeing 2 Patriot League teams if all rules are followed. I don't have to like it or hate it,......especially in today's ridiculously large playoff field. It is what it is this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would argue that we all agree to a specific ranking algorithm and use that to determine the entrants into the tournament.

1. That will never happen because even among those that make a living ranking the teams they're no consensus.

2. It shouldn't happen because unlike basketball, the data set of inter-divisional and inter-subdivisional games, I would argue, is too small to make algorithms effective. The only way to judge these games is to have humans make the judgement calls, which is what we have today with a playoff subcommittee.

3. Conferences, ideally up to nine teams, are the most reliable way to determine the champion of a set of teams in football. In a nine team conference, there is a data set where everyone at least has a head-to-head matchup for comparison, and a set of identical opponents. Once that's established, it makes sense to have autobids to a national playoff made up of these best teams of these sets, with some "wild cards" of the "best of the rest".

[MplsBison]

You can argue til you are blue in the face and you may even have a point, but nothing will change.

So you're conceding the argument. Fine with me, I love being right all the time.

[Lehigh'98]

So you're conceding the argument. Fine with me, I love being right all the time.

I'm not sure there even is a right and wrong here. Simply what will happen (fact) and what wont happen (fiction). But if it makes you feel better, then you can be right.....

[dystopiamembrane]

1. That will never happen because even among those that make a living ranking the teams they're no consensus.The NCAA should create a set of must haves and then put it out for RFP, making a selection from the qualifying systems. The owner of the algorithm would then be the association's consultant. QA could be done throughout the season by a team of mathematicians.


2. It shouldn't happen because unlike basketball, the data set of inter-divisional and inter-subdivisional games, I would argue, is too small to make algorithms effective. The only way to judge these games is to have humans make the judgement calls, which is what we have today with a playoff subcommittee.Each of those committee members uses their own personal algorithm, you know. Some of those algorithms include "Oh! I like that team." and "They were good last year." and "That team has great fan support."


3. Conferences, ideally up to nine teams, are the most reliable way to determine the champion of a set of teams in football. In a nine team conference, there is a data set where everyone at least has a head-to-head matchup for comparison, and a set of identical opponents. Once that's established, it makes sense to have autobids to a national playoff made up of these best teams of these sets, with some "wild cards" of the "best of the rest".Does the autobid system make sense now, in your opinion? Also, like NCAA basketball, if there is a conference of nine terrible teams, should any team from that conference get a bid over a 4th place team from a deep conference? I just don't see why one would argue that weaker teams should make the tournament. Fairness is not an acceptable argument. Is it fair to the team that actually deserves to compete for the national title?

[MplsBison]

I'm not sure there even is a right and wrong here. Simply what will happen (fact) and what wont happen (fiction). But if it makes you feel better, then you can be right.....

Yes, the argument is correct: Fordham is the Patriot League's one team this year. That's that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does the autobid system make sense now, in your opinion? Also, like NCAA basketball, if there is a conference of nine terrible teams, should any team from that conference get a bid over a 4th place team from a deep conference? I just don't see why one would argue that weaker teams should make the tournament. Fairness is not an acceptable argument. Is it fair to the team that actually deserves to compete for the national title?

Without making any judgements as to what you've said, right or wrong, the idea of giving the NEC, Big South, and the PFL autobids was exactly because of "fairness". And being a fan of a conference that used to not have an autobid, I see their point.

[RichH2]

Admit, I dont understand the animus against given every conference a shot, no matter the odds against them winning. This is not pro football,fairness does matter for every conference in FCS

[dystopiamembrane]

Admit, I dont understand the animus against given every conference a shot, no matter the odds against them winning. This is not pro football,fairness does matter for every conference in FCSThey do have a shot. It's called the regular season. If by the end of the season they are not in the top 24, they shouldn't make it. Cut and dry.
And "fairness" in this case is one-sided. See my point above.

[dystopiamembrane]

Without making any judgements as to what you've said, right or wrong, the idea of giving the NEC, Big South, and the PFL autobids was exactly because of "fairness". And being a fan of a conference that used to not have an autobid, I see their point.Please elaborate.

[bison137]

They do have a shot. It's called the regular season. If by the end of the season they are not in the top 24, they shouldn't make it. Cut and dry.



Not cut-and-dried, even if you favor the concept. One problem is that there is no good system to select the "top 24". That's a problem for choosing the two "best" teams for the BCS championship and it would be a much bigger problem if FCS tried to use computer models or polls.

[RichH2]

They do have a shot. It's called the regular season. If by the end of the season they are not in the top 24, they shouldn't make it. Cut and dry.
And "fairness" in this case is one-sided. See my point above.

Disingenuous answer.Given eastern and western biases so prevalent in FCS you're basically mandating a schollie minimum to qualify for playoffs. Your concept of fairness is a bit skewed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Please elaborate.

The late commissioner of the NEC, Brenda Weare, argued that it was unfair that a conference doesn't get an autobid to the tournament when they meet all the criteria for an autobid: at least six teams (check), at least six teams that have played together for five years (check), have proven they can beat teams that have been in the playoffs before (Albany over Delaware, CCSU over Georgia Southern, check, although this last one was more an unwritten rule rather than a formal rule).

A majority of the members of the playoff committee agreed with her, and the playoffs were expanded. As a result, Chuck Priore, Bob Ford and Walt Hameline got playoff games, and I'd argue the playoffs are a better place as a result. Furthermore, that Wagner/EWU game was a really good game, and a really good case for their inclusion alone. There's no way Wagner would have made the playoffs in a "pick the best 20 based on an algorithm" system.

[Dane96]

They do have a shot. It's called the regular season. If by the end of the season they are not in the top 24, they shouldn't make it. Cut and dry.
And "fairness" in this case is one-sided. See my point above.

Sigh. No they don't. Bias, pre-season or otherwise, will always stop a few leagues from being in a regular position to have a birth in the playoffs. There will always be pre-conceived notions about the: Big South, NEC, PL, MEAC, PFL, and at various times, the OVC. I don't count the SWAC or IVY for their obvious non-participation in the playoffs. The former leagues will ALWAYS face an uphill battle in any mathematical output.

Truth is, at various points in time, all of those leagues have had some very qualified teams do well or scare teams in the playoffs (Colgate, Lehigh, FAMU, Stony Brook, Coastal, EKU, etc.)

Why people argue against the way playoffs are selected is frankly maddening. The process is as solid as it can be and will remain the same for quite some time. So what if 3-4 teams "shouldn't" make the playoffs on what is ultimately always going to be a process that is both SUBJECTIVE and OBJECTIVE irrespective of the method chosen because of the underlying concept of not all leagues play other leagues therefore we cannot gauge the strength of the "weaker" leagues.

This is all stupid.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I still don't understand why all the whining about this. The spots didn't exist before so what the hell is the difference? I could see the old 20 or 16 team field being ruined by autobids but you are really only going to have 4 or 5 teams that would have not been in the playoffs before with a bid and still getting the top 19 or 20 teams in with the combination of autobid and at large selections.

[WileECoyote06]

They do have a shot. It's called the regular season. If by the end of the season they are not in the top 24, they shouldn't make it. Cut and dry.
And "fairness" in this case is one-sided. See my point above.

Any program that prefers that selection method has Division II as an option. Let's go ahead and regionalize FCS and select the top six teams per region. No autobids, but we do have earned access.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Any program that prefers that selection method has Division II as an option. Let's go ahead and regionalize FCS and select the top six teams per region. No autobids, but we do have earned access.

The regional system is a total mess. You have regions like the Northeast or upper midwest that are loaded with great teams, and others like the southwest or PNW that might have one or two worthy teams.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Does the autobid system make sense now, in your opinion? Also, like NCAA basketball, if there is a conference of nine terrible teams, should any team from that conference get a bid over a 4th place team from a deep conference? I just don't see why one would argue that weaker teams should make the tournament. Fairness is not an acceptable argument. Is it fair to the team that actually deserves to compete for the national title?

I disagree completely. Every conference champion should have the opportunity to compete for the title, and fairness is a completely acceptable argument. The way the NCAA basketball tournament works is about as solid as could be designed. Teams from stronger conferences still have a better chance at making the big dance than teams from one bid leagues. If a team is consistently failing to make the cut in a strong conference, perhaps they should reevaluate that conference they play in.

The autobid system in the FCS should be a shining example of the right way to do things for the FBS. They're finally moving to a playoff system, but at four teams, it's completely inadequate. When the FBS playoff system includes at least one team from every conference, all the way down to the Sunbelt, they will finally be able to call their championship legitimate.

[Professor Chaos]

I like the autobids, it makes it much more interesting for teams in the NEC or Pioneer (and to a certain extent teams in the MEAC and Patriot) to have that guaranteed postseason berth if they win their league. I would much rather give the last few bids to those lesser league's autobid than to a team that lost 4 or 5 games in the CAA or MVFC. The partial and non-scholly conferences are in the FCS so they should get automatic bids to the FCS playoffs. If someone wants to argue that they shouldn't be part of the FCS with their scholarship requirements the then they'd have a leg to stand on to exclude them from the playoffs but we'd see a lot of schools drop football if that was the case.

[WileECoyote06]

The regional system is a total mess. You have regions like the Northeast or upper midwest that are loaded with great teams, and others like the southwest or PNW that might have one or two worthy teams.

My bad. . I started off sarcastic and fell off. I totally agree with autobids and the current system.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What, exactly, is a deep conference? Can anyone name a conference that goes 4 deep? Certainly not the MVFC, Big Sky, Southland, or SoCon.

[Dane96]

I'd say the MVFC, Big Sky and CAA have at least four teams that qualify it as "Deep" conferences.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'd say the MVFC, Big Sky and CAA have at least four teams that qualify it as "Deep" conferences.

4th in Big Sky Sac State - 4-4 Wins over So. Oregon, Weber St., N Colorado, UND

4th in MVFC South Dakota - 4-4 Wins over UC Davis, Mo State, ISUb, UNI

4th in CAA New Hampshire - 4-3 Wins over Colgate, Rhode Island, Villanova, Stony Brook.


Not a lot of quality there.

[Dane96]

4th in Big Sky Sac State - 4-4 Wins over So. Oregon, Weber St., N Colorado, UND

4th in MVFC South Dakota - 4-4 Wins over UC Davis, Mo State, ISUb, UNI

4th in CAA New Hampshire - 4-3 Wins over Colgate, Rhode Island, Villanova, Stony Brook.


Not a lot of quality there.

That's NOT an accurate picture. You are using W-L in conference.

I personally think teams 1-7 (Maine, Towson, Delaware, UNH, W&M, Villanova, and JMU); 1-5 (Montana St., EWU, NAU, Montana and Sac State); and 1-4 (NDSU, YSU, S. Illinois, and SDSU) would win many OOC match-ups. These are teams now beating each other up in conference. Put any of those teams in another conference and they are challenging for a Top 1-3 slot.

I see you are also discounting wins over Villanova and Stony Brook. Not sure why that's playing out the way you are framing your argument. You cannot solely judge teams on their current "place" in the standings based on in-conference W-L as a sole consideration.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

That's NOT an accurate picture. You are using W-L in conference.

I personally think teams 1-7 (Maine, Towson, Delaware, UNH, W&M, Villanova, and JMU); 1-5 (Montana St., EWU, NAU, Montana and Sac State); and 1-4 (NDSU, YSU, S. Illinois, and SDSU) would win many OOC match-ups. These are teams now beating each other up in conference. Put any of those teams in another conference and they are challenging for a Top 1-3 slot.

I see you are also discounting wins over Villanova and Stony Brook. Not sure why that's playing out the way you are framing your argument. You cannot solely judge teams on their current "place" in the standings based on in-conference W-L as a sole consideration.

New Hampshire also has a loss to Lehigh, which is currently 3rd in the Patriot. The 4th place teams in each of those conferences are not only hovering around .500 but the majority of their wins are against teams with losing records.

[PAllen]

You cannot solely judge teams on their current "place" in the standings based on in-conference W-L as a sole consideration.

Instead we should use your opinion? xsmhx

[Franks Tanks]

Every conference in every sport in every division should get an automatic bid to the postseason so long as they meet the mandated requirements set forth by the NCAA period.

It find it funny that posters calling for no automatic bids for certain conferences in FCS football, only get a team into the big dance through the same process in basketball and other sports. A post season tournament should be conference inclusive. The best teams in the best conferences are rewadred with bye and or tops seeds, which often act as a de facto bye.

[URMite]

I recommend that we select the playoff field by having a round robin of the entire FCS during the regular season so we know who the top 24 teams are and can include them in our once a decade playoff. We may need to extend the years of eligibility as well. xlolx

[PAllen]

I recommend that we select the playoff field by having a round robin of the entire FCS during the regular season so we know who the top 24 teams are and can include them in our once a decade playoff. We may need to extend the years of eligibility as well. xlolx

I like it. Oh and as this would take multiple years to complete, we'd have to do it as a double round robin (home and away).:D

[RichH2]

I like it. Oh and as this would take multiple years to complete, we'd have to do it as a double round robin (home and away).:D

We could go to 16 games a year

[Dane96]

Instead we should use your opinion? xsmhx

Not at all, which is why I used the modifier of "arguable".

[PAllen]

We could go to 16 games a year

More like 61 :)

[cmaxwellgsu]

I know my opinion probably doesn't matter for much since we've played our last playoff game, but I'll chime in. I think the 16 team format with everybody seeded was the best. I enjoyed those playoffs the best. I do understand that some of the non-AQ's from that time period have upped their commitment, and they do deserve having their conference champ in the playoffs. However, I think the autobid criteria needs to be a little stricter. I don't think conferences who don't offer a full 63 scholarships deserve one. I realize they have their reasons for doing so (costs, AI, etc.), but the playoff field should be strictly about football. I also think it's time to go back to everyone being seeded. Being able to buy home games is BS to me, even if my team has been able to do so. I realize this has nothing to do with the original topic, but there's nothing new I can add to that on page 11.