The App State Scholarship Addition Myth

[T-Dog]

From Tommy Bowman of the W-S Journal.


In regard to the transition, the Mountaineers do have seven more scholarship players than the limit of 63 for FCS football. It’s a requirement for the move to the FBS, and the reason for league-title and playoff preclusion this season. But, in reality, there is no significant advantage. Six players counted toward the scholarship additions were already on the roster and were either walk-ons or already on partial scholarships. Five of the seven are being redshirted and will not play this season. Of the four players added after national signing day, all four will have to or likely will sit out this season.

Even though App doesn't deserve any votes now, if they turn things around the whole scholarship addition thingy is really a myth since the invite came after signing day and deserve votes in the polls they are eligible in. Same basic principle applies to Georgia Southern.

[citdog]

From Tommy Bowman of the W-S Journal.



Even though App doesn't deserve any votes now, if they turn things around the whole scholarship addition thingy is really a myth since the invite came after signing day and deserve votes in the polls they are eligible in. Same basic principle applies to Georgia Southern.


http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Children/images/DSC01104.jpg


There There big guy.......only a few more months until you fade into football obscurity.

[superman7515]

Even though App doesn't deserve any votes now, if they turn things around the whole scholarship addition thingy is really a myth since the invite came after signing day and deserve votes in the polls they are eligible in. Same basic principle applies to Georgia Southern.

What polls are they eligible for that they aren't getting votes in?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What polls are they eligible for that they aren't getting votes in?

The 0 win Top 25.

[clenz]

So what you're saying is they have more than 63 players on scholarship?

Yes?

Then shut the **** upabout it

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

[CID1990]

I could understand this apologist article more if ASU wasn't 0-2.

[PaladinFan]

If I read one more thing about App State and Georgia Southern not being able to get motivated or whining about being precluded from the post season, I'm going to bang my head into the wall.

You asked for it. You knew the price. You got it. Move on.

[Bisonator]

70>63 so it is what it is. Too bad so sad.xblehx

[Smitty]

I'm just going to tell WCU that the scholarship limit is more of a guideline than rule then. I'm sure the NCAA will be fine with it.

[Twentysix]

I'm just going to tell WCU that the scholarship limit is more of a guideline than rule then. I'm sure the NCAA will be fine with it.

Would that really make any difference? :p

App could have 10 scholarships or 100, either way they aren't FCS top 25 material this year.

[IBleedYellow]

You guys are crying more than NDSU fans did when we knew we couldn't play in the playoffs back in 06 and 07.

Shut. Up.

You aren't FCS in regards to the amount of players you have, and you also aren't FBS.

Welcome to transitional hell.

FWIW: I enjoy most of you App State and GSU posters, but a few of you are bringing this up constantly and it's quite...obnoxious.

[Squealofthepig]

I could understand this apologist article more if ASU wasn't 0-2.

But the advantage isn't helping them, so we should ignore the advantage (regardless of whether or not they're taking advantage of it).

Great example to throw around any logical fallacy course.

[gabe01]

So what you're saying is they have more than 63 players I scholarship?

Yes?

Then shut the **** upabout it

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

I love your sig line! :) I rarely positive rep a UNI fan but props to you!

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The fact that App. State is 0-2 and off to a rough start should tell you that T-Dog is pointing out the colossal stupidity of the rule and not complaining that his team won't be in the playoffs. GSU is basically in the same situation as App. State seeing how all of the new scholarships are going to players already on the team. Come up with a half-cogent argument as to how the rule makes sense and stop calling people whiners.

For the record, it's not that big a deal to me either because with our pass defense we are likely just forgoing a chance to lose either in the quarterfinals or semifinals.

[Smitty]

Come up with a half-cogent argument as to how the rule makes sense and stop calling people whiners.


Because you can get better players. I would have to say I respect the decision from both schools to give scholarships to players already on the team, but they didn't have to. Not all schools would do that, hence the reason for the rule.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Because you can get better players. I would have to say I respect the decision from both schools to give scholarships to players already on the team, but they didn't have to. Not all schools would do that, hence the reason for the rule.

GSU and App. State both announced their move up after National Signing Day.

[Bisonator]

GSU and App. State both announced their move up after National Signing Day.

So what? Seriously, who's fault was that? I'm sure you weren't telling recruits about your possible move before then either.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

So what? Seriously, who's fault was that? I'm sure you weren't telling recruits about your possible move before then either.

1. ODU announced their move-up a year longer in advance and had a whole recruiting class with it and were legal.
2. The rationalization for the rule is that extra scholarships give a team an unfair advantage, not that you can tell recruits that you are moving up.
3. How many true freshmen can really impact a Division I college team to the point that it would be problematic? Very, very few.
4. Do you really think the talent level in the Sun Belt is so much higher than the upper rungs of the FCS that recruiting for one season with knowledge of a move up gives a significant talent advantage?

[citdog]

1. ODU announced their move-up a year longer in advance and had a whole recruiting class with it and were legal.
2. The rationalization for the rule is that extra scholarships give a team an unfair advantage, not that you can tell recruits that you are moving up.
3. How many true freshmen can really impact a Division I college team to the point that it would be problematic? Very, very few.
4. Do you really think the talent level in the Sun Belt is so much higher than the upper rungs of the FCS that recruiting for one season with knowledge of a move up gives a significant talent advantage?


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f185/padfolio/whiner4.jpg

[DSUrocks07]

Wait, is this turning into an argument that not only should first year transitionals be ranked but allowed into the playoffs as well?

[DP_ASU]

Wait, is this turning into an argument that not only should first year transitionals be ranked but allowed into the playoffs as well?

I don't understand why this could not be discussed logically without accusations of whining and crying? Is there a specific advantage THIS YEAR to a team like APP state or GA Southern? If you say yes, explain why, the no argument has been presented.

I don't see anyone saying APP STATE/GA SO need to be in the polls and eligible RIGHT NOW or else.

[Mattymc727]

There may not be an advantage, but App and GS left the FCS for greener pastures, so you dont get the benefits of the FCS anymore. Its similar to a chick leaving you for a better guy, and then coming back to you after it not being as great as she thought it would be. Sorry toots....

App State and Georgia Southern want to be FBS. The FCS should have every right to say "Sayonara!"

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

The fact that App. State is 0-2 and off to a rough start should tell you that T-Dog is pointing out the colossal stupidity of the rule and not complaining that his team won't be in the playoffs. GSU is basically in the same situation as App. State seeing how all of the new scholarships are going to players already on the team. Come up with a half-cogent argument as to how the rule makes sense and stop calling people whiners.

For the record, it's not that big a deal to me either because with our pass defense we are likely just forgoing a chance to lose either in the quarterfinals or semifinals.

I am amazed - except in the case of CitDog - that presumably well informed and educated people are unable to comprehend the simple idea there was no net gain in players after the FBS announcement. The same players were on the roster before and after the FBS announcement was made. The four added after the announcement are not eligible to play in 2013. Forrest was right, you really can't cure stupid.

2014 can't get here quick enough.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I am amazed - except in the case of CitDog - that presumably well informed and educated people are unable to comprehend the simple idea there was no net gain in players after the FBS announcement. The same players were on the roster before and after the FBS announcement was made. The four added after the announcement are not eligible to play in 2013. Forrest was right, you really can't cure stupid.

2014 can't get here quick enough.

This

[citdog]

I am amazed - except in the case of CitDog - that presumably well informed and educated people are unable to comprehend the simple idea there was no net gain in players after the FBS announcement. The same players were on the roster before and after the FBS announcement was made. The four added after the announcement are not eligible to play in 2013. Forrest was right, you really can't cure stupid.

2014 can't get here quick enough.


52-28


Your last sentence sums up most of our feelings as well.

We're upset that you didn't want to spoon afterwards.

Leave the money on the dresser.

Love,

FCS

[ccd494]

I am amazed - except in the case of CitDog - that presumably well informed and educated people are unable to comprehend the simple idea there was no net gain in players after the FBS announcement. The same players were on the roster before and after the FBS announcement was made. The four added after the announcement are not eligible to play in 2013. Forrest was right, you really can't cure stupid.

2014 can't get here quick enough.

That is an issue of your university picking THE DUMBEST POSSIBLE TIME to begin its transition, not a problem with the rest of the division not saying 7 extra scholarships! Sure! Go nuts!

[Bisonator]

I am amazed - except in the case of CitDog - that presumably well informed and educated people are unable to comprehend the simple idea there was no net gain in players after the FBS announcement. The same players were on the roster before and after the FBS announcement was made. The four added after the announcement are not eligible to play in 2013. Forrest was right, you really can't cure stupid.

2014 can't get here quick enough.

xbabycryx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

52-28


Your last sentence sums up most of our feelings as well.

We're upset that you didn't want to spoon afterwards.

Leave the money on the dresser.

Love,

FCS

It's like that girl who dumps you and is mad that you aren't sad enough that she's leaving.

[citdog]

That is an issue of your university picking THE DUMBEST POSSIBLE TIME to begin its transition, not a problem with the rest of the division not saying 7 extra scholarships! Sure! Go nuts!


this thread is.........




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVENWl8uBeg

[ccd494]

It's like that girl who dumps you and is mad that you aren't sad enough that she's leaving.


It's like that girl who dumps you but then realizes that she left all her stuff in your house and that she threw your key at you while she was leaving.

ODU, on the other hand, is the girl that waits until you leave for work, moves her stuff out, THEN dumps you.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

It's like that girl who dumps you but then realizes that she left all her stuff in your house and that she threw your key at you while she was leaving.

ODU, on the other hand, is the girl that waits until you leave for work, moves her stuff out, THEN dumps you.

+1

[CID1990]

FCS: knock knock!

ASU: Who's there?

FCS: Owen

ASU: Owen who?

FCS: Owen two!

[T-Dog]

I try to bring up a discussion point with evidence and I'm told to stop whining, to **** off and so on.

It's really like some of you read what I posted and couldn't comprehend it and went straight to your defense mechanisms.

What a bunch of ****ing heroes.

[Twentysix]

I try to bring up a discussion point with evidence and I'm told to stop whining, to **** off and so on.

It's really like some of you read what I posted and couldn't comprehend it and went straight to your defense mechanisms.

What a bunch of ****ing heroes.

http://images.wikia.com/arbynthechiefbeta/images/e/e2/Bye.gif

[Smitty]

I try to bring up a discussion point with evidence and I'm told to stop whining, to **** off and so on.

It's really like some of you read what I posted and couldn't comprehend it and went straight to your defense mechanisms.

What a bunch of ****ing heroes.


Okay so is 70 >= 63?

If yes then you still have more scholarships than 99% of FCS giving you an advantage. Even if only 2 of them play it still gives you 65...

I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what you guys don't understand...

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I try to bring up a discussion point with evidence and I'm told to stop whining, to **** off and so on.

It's really like some of you read what I posted and couldn't comprehend it and went straight to your defense mechanisms.

What a bunch of ****ing heroes.

I don't have a defense mechanism. Judging by your teams performance. NEITHER DO THEY!

[clenz]

Um.....No


I would feel the same way no matter who the scholarships were given too.

You want facts? Here we go

Fact - FCS has a 63 scholarship limit.

Fact - if you go above that limit you are no longer eligible for FCS post season...even if given to children on the make a wish foundation list.

Fact - ASU has more than 63 scholarships

Fact - Your program signed up for this all on their own knowing the rules


What else needs to be discussed, other than the feeling of butt hurt.

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

[PaladinFan]

I am amazed - except in the case of CitDog - that presumably well informed and educated people are unable to comprehend the simple idea there was no net gain in players after the FBS announcement. The same players were on the roster before and after the FBS announcement was made. The four added after the announcement are not eligible to play in 2013. Forrest was right, you really can't cure stupid.

2014 can't get here quick enough.

Follow me here.

The rule says you do "A" and the result will be "B." App State/GSU have done "A" and have gotten the result of "B."

I realize that you think that the rest of us are the ones that cannot comprehend a simple idea, but it does not get any simpler than that. Cause and effect. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You can argue the rules are wrong, but you can stand in line with the folks who want to change the rules regarding the politics of college football. They are what they are.

Besides, if you are looking for sympathy points, you've come to the wrong group. Go over the SunBelt board, they'll likely care.

[LosHogan]

I try to bring up a discussion point with evidence and I'm told to stop whining, to **** off and so on.

It's really like some of you read what I posted and couldn't comprehend it and went straight to your defense mechanisms.

What a bunch of ****ing heroes.



Because your thread makes us look like a bunch of saps, making excuses for our situation. We are 0-2. None of the off the field stuff matters. If we were 2-0...maybe you could say "hey, the scholarship situation is unfair and we deserve a ranking, blah blah blah". But as is, you just turned App into fodder for the children on this board (I'm looking at you citdog) yet again.

Just leave it alone...at LEAST until we beat somebody.

[citdog]

Because your thread makes us look like a bunch of saps, making excuses for our situation. We are 0-2. None of the off the field stuff matters. If we were 2-0...maybe you could say "hey, the scholarship situation is unfair and we deserve a ranking, blah blah blah". But as is, you just turned App into fodder for the children on this board (I'm looking at you citdog) yet again.

Just leave it alone...at LEAST until we beat somebody.


you seem to know me WELL and you have only 3 posts!


TOUCHDOWN! THE CITADEL!

[Jazzman1522]

Just because Appy and Southern chose to use their extra scholarships to give to players already on the team doesn't mean the rule should be changed just for them. The rule exists because teams don't always do that. When Western Kentucky began their transition, in one year, there was a stark, noticeable difference in the size of their team that you could see just by looking on the sideline. Would all those players start and make an immediate impact on the field? Probably not. Does that kind of depth make a difference throughout the season? Try and tell me otherwise and I'll assume you're an idiot. Point is, you can't go making exceptions to rules just for the teams that do things a certain way. Because then it's not fair to the other guys you don't make the exception for.

There's no controversy or myth or conspiracy here. FCS has a scholarship limit of 63. App State and Georgia Southern are giving out more scholarships than that. Thus, they aren't eligible in FCS.

[ccd494]

Should every team who is reclassifying have all 70 scholarship athletes go through a combine to see who really is a scholarship caliber athlete and who isn't?

Heck, judging by App's results, if we did that you might be eligible for the D-II title!

[The Cats]

The fact that App. State is 0-2 and off to a rough start should tell you that T-Dog is pointing out the colossal stupidity of the rule and not complaining that his team won't be in the playoffs.

......and Georgia State is playing with 85 scholarships, so what? the record means nothing, how well you play with the personnel you have means nothing. It's the number of individuals on the team that have scholarships that mean everything.

Got more that 63 scholarships? no need to cry about it. Suck it up and play football.

[DoWe]

...how well you play with the personnel you have means nothing.

Not defending the greener pastures crowd but I can't agree with this.

[CID1990]

I try to bring up a discussion point with evidence and I'm told to stop whining, to **** off and so on.

It's really like some of you read what I posted and couldn't comprehend it and went straight to your defense mechanisms.

What a bunch of ****ing heroes.

I dunno if defense mechanisms have anything to do with it.

It's probably due more to the months of

SoCon sux

FCS sux

We're gonna be real good this year y'all

We have probably the best receiver corps in FCS

We're gonna run the table

..... posts we've been reading.

[Ex Pat]

I've said It befor and I'll say it again: See you in the playoffs later this decade.

Your argument is interesting. theoretically? no, you do not have an advantage due to the schollies. But there must be a clear line somewhere, and that line has been crossed in order to move up. Which is fine andcompletely justifiable. But take your medicine and be a non contender for a year. Do you need validation? Hey, I'm a bison man I know all about a need to be told you are amazing. And after so many years at or around the top, I can see how this may be difficult for you. So here ya go: ASU put fcs on the map with a signature win, I watched it and cheered my ass off it was amazing. ASU made an as-of-yet unmatched run of 3 nattys. You truly set the bar for what an FCS school could accomplish and how they could be perceived.

I mean that whole heartedly. That said...

Enjoy the SunBelt. You cannot be ranked. I'm sorry that you must suffer one year without validation before several more spent in obscurity.

[Mountaineer]

I dunno if defense mechanisms have anything to do with it.

It's probably due more to the months of

SoCon sux

FCS sux

We're gonna be real good this year y'all

We have probably the best receiver corps in FCS

We're gonna run the table

..... posts we've been reading.

From a few guys at most, and we all know who they are. T-Dog has been a solid contributor here for years, and he wasn't trying to start a smack thread. I didn't read anything from him begging or demanding that App should be ranked, or receive votes, or that exceptions should be made. He was talking about polls that App and Georgia Southern are already eligible for.

So far this Appalachian State team hasn't shown much of anything..it happens. I think the vast majority of the fan base understands and is perfectly fine with the idea that we're not eligible for votes in polls or that the team can't play in the post season.

[Wallace]

... Your argument is interesting. theoretically? no, you do not have an advantage due to the schollies... ASU put fcs on the map with a signature win, I watched it and cheered my ass off it was amazing. ASU made an as-of-yet unmatched run of 3 nattys. You truly set the bar for what an FCS school could accomplish and how they could be perceived...

I agree that Appalachian State was a notable FCS program but they did not "put fcs on the map" unless your FCS "map" is defined as the best wins by an FCS team over an FBS team.

IMO, The FCS is not defined by beating the FBS. Georgia Southern was the gold standard FCS program.

Of course a team that can award 85 full scholarships has an advantage over teams that can award 63 usually split scholarships. That's why there is a rule for NCAA Division I football and teams must follow eligibility rules.

[Ex Pat]

I agree that Appalachian State was a notable FCS program but they did not "put fcs on the map" unless your FCS "map" is defined as the best wins by an FCS team over an FBS team.

IMO, The FCS is not defined by beating the FBS. Georgia Southern was the gold standard FCS program.

Of course a team that can award 85 full scholarships has an advantage over teams that can award 63 usually split scholarships. That's why there is a rule for NCAA Division I football and teams must follow eligibility rules.

Can't argue with Ga Southern logic. What I was referring to was not the Michigan game alone, but the fact that it was in the midst of a historic championship run that garnered some additional attention. FBS wins are nice, but you are correct. This is the Football CHAMPIONSHIP Subdivision. Not the Football Cute-underdog-story Subdivision.

[MplsBison]

Even though the rules aren't exactly the same, both FCS and FBS teams are essentially limited to 85 players being on some form of a scholarship:

- FBS football is a headcount sport, meaning any player receiving some form of a scholarship counts as one headcount and the headcount limit is 85. They are also limited to 25 new headcounts per year.
- FCS football is an equivalency sport, meaning the total scholarship equivalencies worth of financial aid dispersed to the players is limited, with the limit being 63 scholarship equivalencies given to a maximum 85 counters. They are also limit to 30 new counters per year.

Given that classes usually tend to decrease in size as they get older, here is a potential breakdown of 85 heads divided among five classes:

25 true freshmen
20 redshirt freshmen
17 sophomores
13 juniors
10 seniors

That's 60 headcounts on scholarship from seniors to freshman.


Perhaps a compromise could've been allowed? Say if ASU was only allowed to sign true freshman (no JUCOs or transfers) and no true freshman were allowed to play in games this year - then I would have had no problem with them competing for the conference title or being in the playoffs. That's because the players that would be playing in the games were the same guys that they had already signed as an FCS team and had no prior, certain knowledge that the school would receive an invitation to FBS.

[Saint3333]

I agree that Appalachian State was a notable FCS program but they did not "put fcs on the map" unless your FCS "map" is defined as the best wins by an FCS team over an FBS team.

IMO, The FCS is not defined by beating the FBS. Georgia Southern was the gold standard FCS program.

Of course a team that can award 85 full scholarships has an advantage over teams that can award 63 usually split scholarships. That's why there is a rule for NCAA Division I football and teams must follow eligibility rules.

GSU and App are top 5 FCS programs of all time. There can be no debate about that. When you tell people your team and they play 1-AA/FCS. You explain that to a casual fan as the division with GSU, App, Montana, and now NDSU.

[danefan]

You have have m,ore than 63 rids. Move on.

Plus you suck this year.

[CID1990]

GSU and App are top 5 FCS programs of all time. There can be no debate about that. When you tell people your team and they play 1-AA/FCS. You explain that to a casual fan as the division with GSU, App, Montana, and now NDSU.

Actually I have never felt a need to explain FCS to anyone, ever.

If I did, I would say

Villanova and Georgetown play FCS

[Wallace]

Actually I have never felt a need to explain FCS to anyone, ever.
If I did, I would say
Villanova and Georgetown play FCS

maybe adding Harvard and Yale too, probably the most known schools in FCS.

[FUBeAR]

OK Appy's & GaSou's - let's see if we can help you guys understand why the rule is in place that a transitional team isn't eligible for the playoffs and by reasonable extension shouldn't be eligible for conference championships. Polls are mostly meaningless in a full playoff format, so I don't give a rat's rear-end about 'em. Here we go...

1) I would think that most reasonable people would agree that a rule shouldn't be interpreted/altered/unenforced based on ACTUAL impact on results, right? For example - if 10 GaSou's CLEARLY clipped 10 Appy's who were 40 yards behind the ball on a GaSou scoring play, you would agree that a penalty should be called on the Iggles and the play brought back, even though none of those 10 Appy's COULD HAVE made the tackle, right? Even if none of those MountainBoys were injured, right? A rule is a rule, right?

2) OK - Let's say that the day after signing day 2013, Nick Satan kicked 10 4th year RS-Jr, 3 year starting, pre-season FBS All-Americans off of Alabama's team. That could happen, right? And those guys would need a place to play immediately to showcase themselves to the NFL, right? And they could legally transfer to an FCS program and play in 2013, right?

3) Let's say all 10 decided to transfer to GaSou cuz they kinda dig the uni's and want to stay together as a package deal, getting "Bama X" tatted on their chests to bind their pact.

4) Lo and behold, GaSou just happens to have 10 EXTRA Schollies laying around that they can use and the only other FCS schools that could have those 10 schollies would be another transitional school. NO NON-TRANSITIONING SCHOOLS could sign the Bama 10, but the Iggles can.

5) So...if the rule wasn't in place...y'all think that might make for a definitive, and I hate to say it, unfair, advantage for your Iggles?

Rule is right and should be enforced regardless of its ACTUAL impact on your beloved teams.

Appy's and GaSou's knew the rule when they chose to exit the FCS and take the Road to Irrelevance. Play out the string with dignity this season and enjoy the future road trips to Moscow & Las Cruces.

[ThompsonThe]

Not sure why some of you keep yammering on and on. No one is asking for anything. Think the original post
was just explaining that we really do not have any players that would not have been there whether we announced
that we were going to FBS or not. Simple as that.

[superman7515]

No one is asking for anything.

I think the original post was asking for something...


Even though App doesn't deserve any votes now, if they turn things around the whole scholarship addition thingy is really a myth since the invite came after signing day and deserve votes in the polls they are eligible in.

Although to be fair, when I asked what poll they were eligible for that wasn't giving them any votes, there was never any answer.

[Apphole]

Good god some of you are jaded.

To be expected at the end of a relationship when the dumpee was "dating up" in the first place. At least you get to brag to your friends that you hit that.

[clenz]

Not sure why some of you keep yammering on and on. No one is asking for anything. Think the original post
was just explaining that we really do not have any players that would not have been there whether we announced
that we were going to FBS or not. Simple as that.

Doesn't matter.

Your fans keep bitching that you can't get votes and or playoffs

It doesn't matter if the players wood have been there without the extra scholarships...though I find it hard to believe that going fbs hadn't been known for a couple years by administration and used in recruiting. It doesn't matter that the extra rides went to players who went pay this year (most fbs rides go to people who don't play 85 rides typically 35ish play).

Literally the only thing that matters is you have more than 63 players receiving scholarshipsand thus ate no longer fcs

Your coaches, your president, provost, dean, athletic director, everyone involved in the decision understood that they were signing up to be in purgatory for a while.I don't get why the fans can't accept it......but do I understand why they want/need recognition so badly from a subdivision that you decided you were too good for/no longer wanted to be a part of/fought so hard to get out of

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

[asucrutch23]

Yeah I'm really not sure why people took what T-Dog said to mean that App or GSU should be eligible for playoffs or that any rules should be changed. He is simply talking about polls.



Even though App doesn't deserve any votes now, if they turn things around the whole scholarship addition thingy is really a myth since the invite came after signing day and deserve votes in the polls they are eligible in. Same basic principle applies to Georgia Southern.

While I'm a little confused by the timing of his post given our quality of play this season, he did acknowledge the fact that App doesn't deserve ANY votes right now, even in the polls for which they are eligible (TSN, etc.). I have seen no App fan argue that we should be allowed in the playoffs this season, and challenge anyone to find posts that make such a claim. All T-Dog said was that IF App can turn it around (which is a big if at this point), they should deserve consideration for polls.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether we are ranked or not. It is what it is. We are headed to a different subdivision and are ineligible for postseason and a conference championship, so I'm not sure why it matters. I'm just very confused how some of you took what he said to mean we should be eligible for postseason. I've seen no App fans clamoring for eligibility the way some of you are making it out to seem. xtwocentsx


Edit: Now that I think about it, he didn't even claim that we should be eligible for any of polls for which we aren't eligible now. He's only talking about the polls that we are already eligible for (I'm not sure if there are others besides the TSN poll.)

I understand we are an easy target considering this is an FCS board and we are moving (and that we suck this year), but I mean come on, at least read the post.

[fc97]

its really pretty simple. for two years app coaches have knnown a moveup was happening. so, it's put forth like customers. you get talked into doing something with the promise of more to come. so, you recruit kids with the promise of fbs and more scholarships. once the transition started, you have the extra scholarships to give and so you give them. yes, signing day happened, but you make the promise that in a few weeks you'll get your scholarship. and then all pans out and you give it.

that's your recruiting advantage and thats how you got everyone already on the team with the extra scholarships. its pretty simple.

i dont care. it doesnt matter to me. its just a game. i just bit at the chance to explain.

[citdog]

GSU and App are top 5 FCS programs of all time. .


I agree with that.

[citdog]

Good god some of you are jaded.

To be expected at the end of a relationship when the dumpee was "dating up" in the first place. At least you get to brag to your friends that you hit that.


Good God some of you are either young, clueless, or have an extremely short memory. Appy St was THRILLED to be invited to join the SoCon and was VERY thankful for the opportunity. I think the worst thing that ever happened to Appy St was beating the wolverines.

[asucrutch23]

its really pretty simple. for two years app coaches have knnown a moveup was happening. so, it's put forth like customers. you get talked into doing something with the promise of more to come. so, you recruit kids with the promise of fbs and more scholarships. once the transition started, you have the extra scholarships to give and so you give them. yes, signing day happened, but you make the promise that in a few weeks you'll get your scholarship. and then all pans out and you give it.

that's your recruiting advantage and thats how you got everyone already on the team with the extra scholarships. its pretty simple.

i dont care. it doesnt matter to me. its just a game. i just bit at the chance to explain.


We know why we aren't eligible. All he was saying is that if we turn it around, pollsters that vote in polls for which App and GSU are already eligible should not consider the extra scholarships when comparing teams for that given poll.

[Nova09]

What a silly premise for a thread. I can't believe no one has mentioned it yet, but how do you know those walk ons who are now scholly would have stayed on the team without schollies? Every team loses walk ons ever year because its a numbers game. Sometimes a walk on develops into a starter and is offered a scholarship so he isn't lost, but for the rest of us, that is money that then cannot go to someone else. For App and GSU, the walk on could be given a scholarship without the money coming from another opportunity--it was new money, that no other FCS schools get.

For all you know, those walk ons could have transferred over the summer to get a scholarship or could have just quit because football might not have been worth the time commitment without the financial gain. In fact, your argument could be extended to the ridiculous assertion that scholarship limits shouldn't matter at all, because both teams have 11 on the field at a time so all the extras are meaningless.

[dbackjon]

Good god some of you are jaded.

To be expected at the end of a relationship when the dumpee was "dating up" in the first place. At least you get to brag to your friends that you hit that.


The Sunbelt is not "dating up" It is trading the good looking girl for the ugly girl that shops at the same store as the pretty girls

[asucrutch23]

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."

IMO the thread should have been titled "If App turns it around they should get votes in the polls they are ELIGIBLE for"

Now color me confused as to why we're talking about that now given our dismal start, but why people continue to think that App fans don't understand why we are ineligible is beyond me.

We get that we are ineligible and we know why. We know we are at an advantage because we CAN offer more scholarships this season. Whether or not we do offer more than 63 is irrelevant. Who those extra schollies go to is irrelevant. We can have more than 63 scholarships, so we are ineligible for postseason and a SoCon title. End of story.

Now, what's debatable IMO is whether we should be eligible for polls. I personally don't care if we are, but some polls have decided that we should be allowed to be in their poll. If we are eligible for a poll already, then those pollsters should simply rank the teams according to who they think are the best 25. If a pollster from a poll we are eligible for believes that we are in the top 25 teams in the nation, he should not hold the fact that we have more than 63 scholarships against us because that poll has decided that we can participate despite our ineligible status. However, our play in itself has made us ineligible for polls because we are no good, so it is really a moot point.

[DSUrocks07]

I think the question that everyone, specifically the App posters, are refusing to answer. Why does any of this matter? You want to get votes in the FCS poll? For what purpose? What's the end game here?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Just because Appy and Southern chose to use their extra scholarships to give to players already on the team doesn't mean the rule should be changed just for them. The rule exists because teams don't always do that. When Western Kentucky began their transition, in one year, there was a stark, noticeable difference in the size of their team that you could see just by looking on the sideline. Would all those players start and make an immediate impact on the field? Probably not. Does that kind of depth make a difference throughout the season? Try and tell me otherwise and I'll assume you're an idiot. Point is, you can't go making exceptions to rules just for the teams that do things a certain way. Because then it's not fair to the other guys you don't make the exception for.

There's no controversy or myth or conspiracy here. FCS has a scholarship limit of 63. App State and Georgia Southern are giving out more scholarships than that. Thus, they aren't eligible in FCS.

No one here is disputing that the rule is crystal clear and that the transitional teams are in breach of the rule. What is being contested is that these teams have any real advantage and that the rule effectively cuts off a finger to deal with an ingrown fingernail. What's so difficult to understand about that?

[asucrutch23]

I think the question that everyone, specifically the App posters, are refusing to answer. Why does any of this matter? You want to get votes in the FCS poll? For what purpose? What's the end game here?

Good question. I personally don't care, as I've said. I was just clarifying what I thought was the purpose of this thread and correcting the assumptions that we think we should be eligible for postseason. I don't care if we're in the polls, I just want to win a game!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No one here is disputing that the rule is crystal clear and that the transitional teams are in breach of the rule. What is being contested is that these teams have any real advantage and that the rule effectively cuts off a finger to deal with an ingrown fingernail. What's so difficult to understand about that?

App State and GSU fans want it both ways. When they play a school with less than 63 scholarships, like PFL schools or many of the SWAC teams, they want to exclude them, shun them to the Dregs of FCS. In fact, it's been floated as a reason for leaving: the "lax standards of FCS" and the fact that "they'll even let non-scholarship teams in!".

Yet when they have more than the NCAA limit of 63, they whine that it's really no big deal to have the extra scholarships. They are essentially the same team they would have been before, they claim, except for those seven extra scholarships being spent on redshirted players, former walk-ons, etc.

This is why the hypocrisy-o-meter goes off the charts.

[walliver]

I don't get all the emotion that Appy and GSU leaving has created.
1) It's not like it's any surprise. ASU has been quite vocal about wanting to move. GSU is a little late to the game, but I suspect we all knew that if one left, the other would be sure to follow. The remaining teams are more than happy to have Mercer and ETSU join the league (and one school is happy to have VMI back). In fact, I suspect that WC, FU, Sammy and Cid would rather play Mercer than UL-whatever; obviously GSU and ASU feel otherwise. We grew apart, there are no kids to worry about or assets to redistribute, so it is time for a amicable divorce. I have no desire to be Appy's or Southern's crazy ex-dominatrix:D.
2) ASU and GSU decided to move on, both have given notices and tendered their resignations as of June 30, 2014, why then worry about little ol' FCS or the SoCon. Both administrations were quite aware that there was a two-year transition period. It is bad for the players, and fans also, that both schools are in NCAA limbo. The bottom line, however, is that both are now offering over 63 scholarships. How they choose to distribute the extras is up to each school. Interestingly, ODU fans don't seem to be upset that they are not ranked. Maybe this is because they don't have long-term FCS ties.

I am more than willing to discuss ASU and GSU's on field performance, or lack thereof, but it is time to stop this FCS/FBS banter, or at least move it to the smack board I rarely visit.

[HensRock]

So let me get this straight...

You want your cake...
AND you want to eat it?

[ccd494]

Good god some of you are jaded.

To be expected at the end of a relationship when the dumpee was "dating up" in the first place. At least you get to brag to your friends that you hit that.

Maine certainly did get to "hit that." In the playoffs. Twice.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

We know why we aren't eligible. All he was saying is that if we turn it around, pollsters that vote in polls for which App and GSU are already eligible should not consider the extra scholarships when comparing teams for that given poll.

That is exactly what I saw from TDogs post as well. It's a natural occurence that it gets off into the weeds though because some retorts are simple digs at certain posters from the schools that have a penchant for running their mouthes. They are schadenfreude factories.

TDog is not one of them.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Maine certainly did get to "hit that." In the playoffs. Twice.

We had a pice a few times as well.

Too many good people from there to let the comment rest on them so it's aim is not at the good folks from App that don't deserve the comeback.

[Apphole]

We had a pice a few times as well.

Too many good people from there to let the comment rest on them so it's aim is not at the good folks from App that don't deserve the comeback.

Just responding to 8 pages of unnecessary smack based off of a completely innocent clarification by T-Dog. Some people really are jaded about the App and GaSo departure.

[citdog]

Some people really are jaded about the App and GaSo departure.



Jaded- tired, bored, or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something.


yes. Jaded we are.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just responding to 8 pages of unnecessary smack based off of a completely innocent clarification by T-Dog. Some people really are jaded about the App and GaSo departure.

Yes, I understand. I had mentioned last summer at one point in a pm that this was the sort of thing that was being bred by some of things being said if you remember. To act as if it is not to be expected at this point would be disingenuous of course. It sucks but it's where we are at apparently. I saw it coming a long way off though and attempted to mitigate this sort of thing. Didn't work.

Here we are, jaded. Poisoned wells are a bitch.

[superman7515]

http://www.notevenpast.org/sites/notevenpast.org/files/dysentery.jpeg

[MplsBison]

Hate to toot my own horn here, but I feel like I made some good points in post #50. Anyone have any comments or response?

[CID1990]

Good god some of you are jaded.

To be expected at the end of a relationship when the dumpee was "dating up" in the first place. At least you get to brag to your friends that you hit that.

Here you go ASUMountaneer!

BTW we hit that so hard last year she's still walking bowlegged and leaving us psychotic lithium induced messages on our voicemail.

Touchdown Citadel!

[Twentysix]

App should get a History grad student to write the myth history of App State's FBS transitional period.

[Saint3333]

maybe adding Harvard and Yale too, probably the most known schools in FCS.
Ah the irony. A poster that waves the FCS flag the highest points to two programs that choose not to participant in the one facet that the FCS has an edge over the FBS.

cool story.

[Apphole]

Here you go ASUMountaneer!

BTW we hit that so hard last year she's still walking bowlegged and leaving us psychotic lithium induced messages on our voicemail.

Touchdown Citadel!

That's how you play ball, right there. Not the football game. The response to my post. xlolx

[fc97]

Just responding to 8 pages of unnecessary smack based off of a completely innocent clarification by T-Dog. Some people really are jaded about the App and GaSo departure.

some people are jaded. some people are returning favors handed out by app fans since 2005?

[PaladinFan]

Ah the irony. A poster that waves the FCS flag the highest points to two programs that choose not to participant in the one facet that the FCS has an edge over the FBS.

cool story.

I doubt you would have added Furman to your list of all time top FCS programs, despite their program's historical numbers being very similar to App State's.

[Saint3333]

Furman is a top 10 program, but not top five. Rings matter.

[clenz]

Furman is a top 10 program, but not top five. Rings matter.
So...then FAMU, EKU, and Idaho State are top 10?

[Saint3333]

Only one of those could potentially rank ahead of Furman's resume as FU has a ring. EKU with 17 playoff appearances and two titles would get consideration. EKU's success was a decade before Furman's and both have trended in the same directions (Furman just 10 years later).

20 programs have won the title. Only 7 have won two or more.

Top five: GSU, YSU, App, Montana, Marshall

After that you could argue any of the following are the next 5: NDSU (climbing quickly), Furman, EKU, Delaware, McNeese, UNI, JMU, SIU, MSU.

[fc97]

Only one of those could potentially rank ahead of Furman's resume as FU has a ring. EKU with 17 playoff appearances and two titles would get consideration. EKU's success was a decade before Furman's and both have trended in the same directions (Furman just 10 years later).

20 programs have won the title. Only 7 have won two or more.

Top five: GSU, YSU, App, Montana, Marshall

After that you could argue any of the following are the next 5: NDSU (climbing quickly), Furman, EKU, Delaware, McNeese, UNI, JMU, SIU, MSU.

wouldn't umass also deserve consideration?

[Twentysix]

Hard to keep Marshall GSU and App on that list.

I doubt DII teams consider NDSU a top 5.

[Skjellyfetti]

wouldn't umass also deserve consideration?

No, Mountaineer/OLFU's spreadsheet had them barely a top 10 program last time I checked.

It's a little outdated (at least the most recent that I could find). If anything, they would be further down the list, though.

[Saint3333]

Hard to keep Marshall GSU and App on that list.

I doubt DII teams consider NDSU a top 5.

I disagree. You can make a list of current members if you'd like. Getting FCS/1-AA of ALL-TIME would include those that left the subdivision as well by definition.

[ASUMountaineer]

Here you go ASUMountaneer!

BTW we hit that so hard last year she's still walking bowlegged and leaving us psychotic lithium induced messages on our voicemail.

Touchdown Citadel!

WTF? I haven't even posted in this thread...

1992!

[ASUMountaineer]

Doesn't matter.

Some of Your fans keep bitching that you can't get votes and or playoffs

It doesn't matter if the players wood have been there without the extra scholarships...though I find it hard to believe that going fbs hadn't been known for a couple years by administration and used in recruiting. It doesn't matter that the extra rides went to players who went pay this year (most fbs rides go to people who don't play 85 rides typically 35ish play).

Literally the only thing that matters is you have more than 63 players receiving scholarshipsand thus ate no longer fcs

Your coaches, your president, provost, dean, athletic director, everyone involved in the decision understood that they were signing up to be in purgatory for a while.I don't get why the fans can't accept it......but do I understand why they want/need recognition so badly from a subdivision that you decided you were too good for/no longer wanted to be a part of/fought so hard to get out of

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

FIFY.

I couldn't care less about the rankings or the playoffs at this point. We knew the deal and made our decision. Decisions have consequences, some are good and some are bad (yes, there can be good consequences). This is one of the bad consequences. My response to the OP is, "ehh...oh well."

[ASUMountaineer]

I think the question that everyone, specifically the App posters, are refusing to answer. Why does any of this matter? You want to get votes in the FCS poll? For what purpose? What's the end game here?

Exactly.

[CID1990]

WTF? I haven't even posted in this thread...

1992!

"It was a very good year." said Frank Sinatra

I believe that was the last time ASU was shut out in KBS.

[ASUMountaineer]

"It was a very good year." said Frank Sinatra

I believe that was the last time ASU was shut out in KBS.

Maybe so...I was 11.

Still not sure what I had to do with your post...

[CID1990]

Maybe so...I was 11.

Still not sure what I had to do with your post...

I don't know what you had to do with my post, either.

[ASUMountaineer]

Oh well, if anyone would I figured it would have been you...


Here you go ASUMountaneer!

BTW we hit that so hard last year she's still walking bowlegged and leaving us psychotic lithium induced messages on our voicemail.

Touchdown Citadel!

[T-Dog]

My point wasn't about playoffs. That's a different issue.

My issue was with the polls and some voters refusing to vote for App and Georgia Southern because of the scholarship increase while others do. It should be uniform across the board.

My point is the people who refuse to vote for either because of the perceived "unfair advantage" are wrong.

[clenz]

My point wasn't about playoffs. That's a different issue.

My issue was with the polls and some voters refusing to vote for App and Georgia Southern because of the scholarship increase while others do. It should be uniform across the board.

My point is the people who refuse to vote for either because of the perceived "unfair advantage" are wrong.

But they aren't wrong...

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

[T-Dog]

Although to be fair, when I asked what poll they were eligible for that wasn't giving them any votes, there was never any answer.

The TSN poll at the start of the season. Same with GSU. Voters bragged about their sneering attitude of not voting for transitional teams.

[CID1990]

Oh well, if anyone would I figured it would have been you...

Well I was replying to apphole but I had you in mind.

[bisonboone11]

I have a question that maybe someone could answer for me. It was pretty well known that App St. and Georgia Southern would be moving up. Hypothetically, could App or Georgia Southern have told players that they are offering them a 1/2 scholarship, but once they make the move up to FBS, they would increase it to a full scholarship to "sweeten" the deal a little bit?

[clenz]

I have a question that maybe someone could answer for me. It was pretty well known that App St. and Georgia Southern would be moving up. Hypothetically, could App or Georgia Southern have told players that they are offering them a 1/2 scholarship, but once they make the move up to FBS, they would increase it to a full scholarship to "sweeten" the deal a little bit?

Yes...and I would put 4 years of my salary on it happening that way

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

[Mountaineer]

No, Mountaineer/OLFU's spreadsheet had them barely a top 10 program last time I checked.

It's a little outdated (at least the most recent that I could find). If anything, they would be further down the list, though.

I still keep it updated (mostly for me), and I have the last two years on Google. I didn't bother posting 2012 as there wasn't much feedback or discussion about 2011. I'll drop them here though since you were looking.

OL FU's Best of Playoffs 2012 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AvHJfK4_Pa8jdFZTcnRkTHNoMHRwLTdMUXl1bWdGb Wc&gid=1)

OL FU's Best of Playoffs 2011 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AvHJfK4_Pa8jdC14MkZQb1FLaFg0dktGLXRRWTJ1O EE&gid=1)

[ASUMountaineer]

Well I was replying to apphole but I had you in mind.

That seems like I should be offended. xblehxxlolx

[citdog]

Voters bragged about their sneering attitude of not voting for transitional teams.


turnabout is fair play. some appy st posters have the sneering attitude thing down to an art.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes...and I would put 4 years of my salary on it happening that way

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

Exactly, there is an advantage. it may not be huge but it is an advantage so that is all that needs to be considered. I think that if a poll is allowing those teams to be voted then they should be considered by all no matter what the prejudices are though.

You don't make weight, you forfeit. Simple as that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You don't make weight, you forfeit. Simple as that.

But the last seven pounds were from Twinkies I already ate....

[bisonboone11]

Exactly, there is an advantage. it may not be huge but it is an advantage so that is all that needs to be considered. I think that if a poll is allowing those teams to be voted then they should be considered by all no matter what the prejudices are though.

You don't make weight, you forfeit. Simple as that.
I agree. It just causes too many problems when some people decide they're not eligible in a poll that has deemed them eligible.

[dbackjon]

Exactly, there is an advantage. it may not be huge but it is an advantage so that is all that needs to be considered. I think that if a poll is allowing those teams to be voted then they should be considered by all no matter what the prejudices are though.

You don't make weight, you forfeit. Simple as that.

Is it an FCS poll or not?

Or a poll for teams that have played in FCS in the past two years?

Ga Southern, ODU and Appy are not FCS teams. Very simple.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Here you go ASUMountaneer!

BTW we hit that so hard last year she's still walking bowlegged and leaving us psychotic lithium induced messages on our voicemail.

Touchdown Citadel!

Guess when you finally get that once a decade win you've got to make the most of it. xlolx

[citdog]

Guess when you finally get that once a decade win you've got to make the most of it. xlolx


In a couple of weeks the 'Dogs will show you how Charleston people show mountain trash the way to the exit.

[Apphole]

In a couple of weeks the 'Dogs will show you how Charleston people show mountain trash the way to the exit.

Oh, let's be honest. You can show us where our hotel room is as you carry our bags. Then you can explain why you chose to a go to a military academy that's not really a military academy on the way to our penthouse suite.

It's the hardest a s***adel cadet will ever work for Mr. Lincoln.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTS9P61mqcwYNETqLmj_HyTTBIFF28w4 ZyvOD0gT02Pd2vKwtxvTg

[MplsBison]

Yes...and I would put 4 years of my salary on it happening that way



But hypothetically speaking, what if App St and GSU agreed that no new players (ie, any player on the 2013 roster that was not on the 2012 roster) would be ineligible to play during the 2013 season?

In that case, they should be allowed to win the SoCon conference title and be eligible for the FCS playoffs. Correct?

[clenz]

But hypothetically speaking, what if App St and GSU agreed that no new players (ie, any player on the 2013 roster that was not on the 2012 roster) would be ineligible to play during the 2013 season?

In that case, they should be allowed to win the SoCon conference title and be eligible for the FCS playoffs. Correct?

No

Sent from a, likely, NSA tracked device

[citdog]

Oh, let's be honest. You can show us where our hotel room is as you carry our bags. Then you can explain why you chose to a go to a military academy that's not really a military academy on the way to our penthouse suite.

It's the hardest a s***adel cadet will ever work for Mr. Lincoln.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTS9P61mqcwYNETqLmj_HyTTBIFF28w4 ZyvOD0gT02Pd2vKwtxvTg


How the once decent have fallen! apphole recycling material of OLFU circa 2004. Sad......so VERY sad.

MY style of 5's.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/qhafeez/LincolnTyrant.jpg

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Is it an FCS poll or not?

Or a poll for teams that have played in FCS in the past two years?

Ga Southern, ODU and Appy are not FCS teams. Very simple.

Well that is up to the people running that poll, voting in that poll, and the public to decide I guess. It is not to me, but opinions vary.

[Saint3333]

I have a question that maybe someone could answer for me. It was pretty well known that App St. and Georgia Southern would be moving up. Hypothetically, could App or Georgia Southern have told players that they are offering them a 1/2 scholarship, but once they make the move up to FBS, they would increase it to a full scholarship to "sweeten" the deal a little bit?

It's been rumored for 15 years, guess we need to vacate all our honors during the span...

[MplsBison]

No

Because?

[DSUrocks07]

But hypothetically speaking, what if App St and GSU agreed that no new players (ie, any player on the 2013 roster that was not on the 2012 roster) would be ineligible to play during the 2013 season?

In that case, they should be allowed to win the SoCon conference title and be eligible for the FCS playoffs. Correct?


1) Why would ANY potential recruit agree to those terms?

2) What about JC transfers? They would be considered "new players".

3) What if a player who is on the roster gets injured? Couldn't App and/or GSU then call one of these "ineligible players" a walk-on with the promise of a full scholarship in the future?

[MplsBison]

1) Why would ANY potential recruit agree to those terms?

2) What about JC transfers? They would be considered "new players".

3) What if a player who is on the roster gets injured? Couldn't App and/or GSU then call one of these "ineligible players" a walk-on with the promise of a full scholarship in the future?

The point of the exercise is to understand if there was something ASU or GSU could've done that would've allowed them this season to be eligible to win the SoCon conference title and eligible for the FCS playoffs.

My argument is if they restricted their 2013 roster of eligible players to be only players that were eligible to play on the 2012 roster, there isn't any possible argument for why they shouldn't be eligible in both cases. Since they'd only be using players in the 2013 season that were available to play in the 2012 season, when they were eligible for both those things.


As to your points:

1 - that already happens every year at almost every DI football program in the country. Most incoming high school players don't ever have a chance at seeing the field their first year in the program. Yet they all sign up for it. It wouldn't really be any different here except this would be a hard, etched in stone rule preventing them from seeing the field in 2013, no matter what. Just semantics, really.

2 - same thing, any player who is new to the program for the 2013 season would be ineligible. Now here you might have a case to say something like "what JUCO would sign up for that?". But again, I think there are certainly cases where JUCOs come into DI programs with three years remaining on their clocks. I think it's reasonable to say to a JUCO that having two seasons to play is as good as you can expect, taking the path you took. None of them may bite on that hook, but then again you weren't going to be able to use the player in 2013 anyway. So it's not that big a deal if no JUCOs or transfers come to the program that year.

3 - same thing as 2. Any player who wasn't on the roster in 2012 is ineligible for 2013, that includes walkons.