UMass: Before (FCS) and After (FBS)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/colleges/post/_/id/3380/umass-football-tries-to-drum-up-enthusiasm?src=mobile


UMass football tries to drum up enthusiasm

The spring session completed, University of Massachusetts football coach Charley Molnar can now turn his full attention to recruiting.

But instead of future players, Molnar and the Minutemen are setting their sights on future fans. The school has planned events in the Greater Boston area and Western Mass. through June, hoping to drum up enthusiasm about UMass football at the FBS level headed into Year 2.

...

UMass averaged 10,902 fans at its five home games in 2012, down from more than 13,000 in its last FCS season in 2011. Two of the five games at Gillette Stadium drew fewer than 10,000 fans, with a low of 6,385 in the season-closing loss to Central Michigan.

Molnar said people, recruits and fans alike, have been receptive to UMass. And he expects the more than $34 million construction project underway at McGuirk Stadium, upgrading the facility to meet MAC standards and building a new “performance center” to house the football locker room, weight room and coaches offices under one roof, to enhance the Minutemen’s status going forward.

“Right now our facilities would have to rank at the very, very bottom of 1-A football,” he said. “A year from now our facilities will be at the top of mid-major football and better than what many BCS programs have to offer.”

But even with gleaming new digs, there’s no guarantee the product on the field will look a whole lot better in 2013.

Recap: $34 million in construction costs to "meet MAC standards". 3,000 fewer fans per year.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What did they honestly expect? If the Minutemen can get back to McGuirk without taking on too much water they should be ok imo.

I'd love to catch a Temple-Umass game in Amherst on a fall Saturday. I was there in 1998 and have been itching to get back.

[asumike83]

Let me get this straight: if you only average 13K before going FBS and then move games 90 minutes from campus, attendance will decrease? What would be do without ESPN to keep us informed on such breaking news.

[UAalum72]

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/colleges/post/_/id/3380/umass-football-tries-to-drum-up-enthusiasm?src=mobile

Recap: $34 million in construction costs to "meet MAC standards". 3,000 fewer fans per year.

Presumably moving games back on campus to McGuirk would restore attendance to at least the FCS levels. Not that that makes the $34M worth it.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Let me get this straight: if you only average 13K before going FBS and then move games 90 minutes from campus, attendance will decrease? What would be do without ESPN to keep us informed on such breaking news.

To be fair, if they were in a "better" conference their attendance would have increased despite playing that far away from campus.

[DFW HOYA]

Recap: $34 million in construction costs to "meet MAC standards". 3,000 fewer fans per year.

This is an issue with scheduling in the MAC. In 2011, UMass had home games with URI, Central Connecticut, New Hampshire, Villanova, and James Madison, three or four of which were a road trip away. In 2012, the home schedule was Indiana, Ohio, Bowling Green, Buffalo, and Central Michigan. The closest opponent was 386 miles away, the furthest, 929, and none were of much interest to local fans with walk-up ticket sales.

It would be if Lehigh joined the SoCon and traded Princeton, Colgate, and Holy Cross for Furman, Chattanooga, and Samford.

[GannonFan]

Their plan was never to live in the MAC forever - UMass clearly made this move hoping to be a part of the Big East or another biger FBS conference. Now the Big East is blown up and the remnant of it probably isn't strong enough to make a difference. UMass is very similar to Temple - they took a chance and missed out because the conference they were taking a chance on went away. Just some bad luck and some bad timing.

[SpiritCymbal]

This is an issue with scheduling in the MAC. In 2011, UMass had home games with URI, Central Connecticut, New Hampshire, Villanova, and James Madison, three or four of which were a road trip away. In 2012, the home schedule was Indiana, Ohio, Bowling Green, Buffalo, and Central Michigan. The closest opponent was 386 miles away, the furthest, 929, and none were of much interest to local fans with walk-up ticket sales.

It would be if Lehigh joined the SoCon and traded Princeton, Colgate, and Holy Cross for Furman, Chattanooga, and Samford.

I think that if they would have played Indiana and C. Michigan at home instead of in Foxboro, it would have helped. Not solved everything...but helped. Sorry to play the shoulda/woulda/coulda game....but they should have made the $34M investment in upgrading their own stadium prior to the move so that they wouldn't have had to resort to games in Foxboro.

[darell1976]

Their average of 10,000 fans is still more than double the amount of the average fans Eastern Michigan brings in.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Their plan was never to live in the MAC forever - UMass clearly made this move hoping to be a part of the Big East or another biger FBS conference. Now the Big East is blown up and the remnant of it probably isn't strong enough to make a difference. UMass is very similar to Temple - they took a chance and missed out because the conference they were taking a chance on went away. Just some bad luck and some bad timing.

Temple hasn't taken a huge hit yet. If the AAC can stay together the Owls football program should ok. Our attendance, while not great, is at the very least acceptable. Long-term Temple needs to try to get on campus imo. A 30k on-campus stadium is not a far fetched idea IF Temple and the state plays up the community aspect.

[UNHWildcat18]

Im sorry but UMass in my opinion should have taken another year or two to go FBS and with the renovations bring the stadium to say 30k not 17 to 20k. no Gillette attendance problem in this scenario! I truly dont see what they were thinking.

[Sitting Bull]

Their plan was never to live in the MAC forever - UMass clearly made this move hoping to be a part of the Big East or another biger FBS conference. Now the Big East is blown up and the remnant of it probably isn't strong enough to make a difference. UMass is very similar to Temple - they took a chance and missed out because the conference they were taking a chance on went away. Just some bad luck and some bad timing.

I just don't think thats a legitimate excuse. Any business that makes a decision like this would certainly weigh the risk and return - not to mention the University obviously placed the importance of the students and university community as non factors in this decision.

They farmed their football program out to a millionaire.

I recall someone in the decision process made the statement that they wanted UMass to be like Michigan. Nice to have a goal but this is extremely naive to put on the shoulders of a football program.

The pity is the egos that drove this'd train wreck will never admit the error.

[dgtw]

So they didn't think people would rather watch the Patriots and Red Sox in the fall than a UMass-Central Michigan game?

[asumike83]

To be fair, if they were in a "better" conference their attendance would have increased despite playing that far away from campus.

If you're counting on the opponents to increase your fan support, I think that is rarely a recipe for success. Sure, if they joined the Big Ten then they'd get a lot more people out but even if they went to the AAC, I don't think they'd have fans or students clamoring to drive 90 miles for a game.

They should have upgraded the stadium and been ready to host games on campus before making the move IMO.

[UNH Fanboi]

I think everyone knew the first few years would be rough. UMass' endgame is obviously to join another conference with the likes of UConn, BC, etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think everyone knew the first few years would be rough. UMass' endgame is obviously to join another conference with the likes of UConn, BC, etc.

The trouble is BC and UConn don't want to share a conference with UMass at pretty much any cost.

[ccd494]

I still don't understand why in a region that has pretty conclusively proven its apathy towards college sports you make this move. Success in New England, unless you are the Pats, Celtics, Bruins or Red Sox, is 10,000 sets of eyes on your product.

This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to. Most New Englanders didn't grow up dreaming of going to Big State U and joining your dad's fraternity and wearing your school colors at a tailgate. The numbers of people going to smaller private schools is immense. There are more than 50 colleges IN THE CITY OF BOSTON ALONE. Kids dream schools are Harvard or Yale, where they are then going to disperse around the world, not spend their lives at the nearest big city 100 miles from campus with a huge alumni network and intense demand for college sports tickets. Or kids want to go to Williams or Amherst. Or Berklee if they are a musician. Or Bennington or Middlebury if they want a wildernessy type experience.

Trying to make UMass into a southern style UNC or Alabama where the comings and goings of the Minutemen lead the Globe every day was never realistic. Heck, UConn has had 5x the success of UMass, and unless they are winning a basketball title or Calhoun is spouting off they aren't getting the lead over the Yankees or Red Sox come spring. Stay in your lane and know your role, UMass.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I still don't understand why in a region that has pretty conclusively proven its apathy towards college sports you make this move. Success in New England, unless you are the Pats, Celtics, Bruins or Red Sox, is 10,000 sets of eyes on your product.

This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to. Most New Englanders didn't grow up dreaming of going to Big State U and joining your dad's fraternity and wearing your school colors at a tailgate. The numbers of people going to smaller private schools is immense. There are more than 50 colleges IN THE CITY OF BOSTON ALONE. Kids dream schools are Harvard or Yale, where they are then going to disperse around the world, not spend their lives at the nearest big city 100 miles from campus with a huge alumni network and intense demand for college sports tickets. Or kids want to go to Williams or Amherst. Or Berklee if they are a musician. Or Bennington or Middlebury if they want a wildernessy type experience.

Trying to make UMass into a southern style UNC or Alabama where the comings and goings of the Minutemen lead the Globe every day was never realistic. Heck, UConn has had 5x the success of UMass, and unless they are winning a basketball title or Calhoun is spouting off they aren't getting the lead over the Yankees or Red Sox come spring. Stay in your lane and know your role, UMass.


Awesome post!!

[Nova09]

If you're counting on the opponents to increase your fan support, I think that is rarely a recipe for success. Sure, if they joined the Big Ten then they'd get a lot more people out but even if they went to the AAC, I don't think they'd have fans or students clamoring to drive 90 miles for a game.

They should have upgraded the stadium and been ready to host games on campus before making the move IMO.

Agree with your overall point, but opponents affect attendance for everyone. The App fans on here would not be excited about a move to the WAC with Idaho and Mexico St coming to town.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agree with your overall point, but opponents affect attendance for everyone. The App fans on here would not be excited about a move to the WAC with Idaho and Mexico St coming to town.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. xlolx Incidentally, in the Sun Belt, Idaho will be coming to town.

[NHwildEcat]

If they want to bump up attendance they should schedule UNH...that would get 25K+ in the building.

[terrierbob]

"This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to".

Typical anti-Southern bias. While football is certainly more popular in the South, the reason "Big State Universities" have so much attention and focus is because, until 1966, the Southeast had no professional football team. As far as one's personal identity, I certainly can't speak for all Southerners, but it seems to revolve around their community, their family, and their home more than over-publicized allegiances to the Crimson Tide, Bulldogs, etc. Additionally, many more skilled, blue-collar jobs were available in the north for decades; the necessity for a four year degree just wasn't there. The image of a blue-collar neighborhood in downtown Philly, Boston, or Pittsburgh flying the colors of their pro team is, I believe, a scenario with a history beginning many decades before Rankin Smith brought the Falcons to Atlanta. As far small colleges go, the South has plenty with varying degrees of quality, just like the Northeast. And for the record, since 2008, Wofford has had over 1000 students studying in 68 countries on seven continents. The student population is 1500. I was lucky enough for my interim mini semester to go on a month-long international tour with stops in Florence, Rome, Paris and London. I cut grass for two summers for the plane ticket. Northeast schools don't have a monopoly on global connections.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

"This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to".

Typical anti-Southern bias. While football is certainly more popular in the South, the reason "Big State Universities" have so much attention and focus is because, until 1966, the Southeast had no professional football team. As far as one's personal identity, I certainly can't speak for all Southerners, but it seems to revolve around their community, their family, and their home more than over-publicized allegiances to the Crimson Tide, Bulldogs, etc. Additionally, many more skilled, blue-collar jobs were available in the north for decades; the necessity for a four year degree just wasn't there. The image of a blue-collar neighborhood in downtown Philly, Boston, or Pittsburgh flying the colors of their pro team is, I believe, a scenario with a history beginning many decades before Rankin Smith brought the Falcons to Atlanta. As far small colleges go, the South has plenty with varying degrees of quality, just like the Northeast. And for the record, since 2008, Wofford has had over 1000 students studying in 68 countries on seven continents. The student population is 1500. I was lucky enough for my interim mini semester to go on a month-long international tour with stops in Florence, Rome, Paris and London. I cut grass for two summers for the plane ticket. Northeast schools don't have a monopoly on global connections.

In general CCD is right. There could be 10 college graduates in a Northeast family and not a single alum of State U. You're not likely to find that in other parts of the country.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If they want to bump up attendance they should schedule UNH...that would get 25K+ in the building.

This isn't just idle banter. UMass' best attended games in Foxboro have been against UNH in the "Colonial Clash".

http://boards.caazone.com/showthread.php?114508-UMass-vs-UNH-at-Gillette-Stadium-2011-27-attendance-drop-from-2010

Colonial Clash at Gillette
2010 32,848
2011 24,022

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/2012/12/12/umass-football-plagued-attendance-problem/SSLQAgii98Vq8pGqF8xS2M/story.html

"By that measure, the university spent an additional $1.7 million this season, only for the average attendance to decrease to 10,902 from 13,008 the previous year. (In 2011, the Minutemen drew 41,018 to four home games on campus and 24,022 to a “home’’ game against New Hampshire at Gillette.)"

[ccd494]

"This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to".

Typical anti-Southern bias. While football is certainly more popular in the South, the reason "Big State Universities" have so much attention and focus is because, until 1966, the Southeast had no professional football team. As far as one's personal identity, I certainly can't speak for all Southerners, but it seems to revolve around their community, their family, and their home more than over-publicized allegiances to the Crimson Tide, Bulldogs, etc. Additionally, many more skilled, blue-collar jobs were available in the north for decades; the necessity for a four year degree just wasn't there. The image of a blue-collar neighborhood in downtown Philly, Boston, or Pittsburgh flying the colors of their pro team is, I believe, a scenario with a history beginning many decades before Rankin Smith brought the Falcons to Atlanta. As far small colleges go, the South has plenty with varying degrees of quality, just like the Northeast. And for the record, since 2008, Wofford has had over 1000 students studying in 68 countries on seven continents. The student population is 1500. I was lucky enough for my interim mini semester to go on a month-long international tour with stops in Florence, Rome, Paris and London. I cut grass for two summers for the plane ticket. Northeast schools don't have a monopoly on global connections.

I lived in the South. I'm not saying that people don't move, but I have to say, whenever I met someone new the first two questions (before they heard my northern accent) were "What church do you go to?" and "Gamecock or Tiger?"

[DFW HOYA]

This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to. Most New Englanders didn't grow up dreaming of going to Big State U and joining your dad's fraternity and wearing your school colors at a tailgate. The numbers of people going to smaller private schools is immense. There are more than 50 colleges IN THE CITY OF BOSTON ALONE. Kids dream schools are Harvard or Yale, where they are then going to disperse around the world, not spend their lives at the nearest big city 100 miles from campus with a huge alumni network and intense demand for college sports tickets. Or kids want to go to Williams or Amherst. Or Berklee if they are a musician. Or Bennington or Middlebury if they want a wildernessy type experience.

If there is a Southern bias in this comment, there is a bit of bias about New England as well.

Kids in New England do not dream of Harvard or Yale as once they might have--national admissions all but eliminated the opportunity for most regional candidates to find their way in. (Only one in six Harvard College admits actually come from the Northeast, and a lot of that is from NYC.) And a lot of kids do not "dispense around the world", in that they cannot afford to, which is why most college alumni populations are concentrated within two hours from their campuses.

Northeast schools missed the strategic investment other states put into their university systems after World War II because they did not see the impact of a strong university system (and federal research dollars) serving as a magnet for economic development and were unprepared for the rapid rise in college-age enrollmetns, many of which simply go elsewhere. Lots of kids in the Northeast do end up at Big State U...except it's in Ann Arbor or Charlottesville or State College.

Regions like Austin or Palo Alto or Chapel Hill are less about being "college towns" and more about economic drivers of entrepreneurship and technology which, in turn, brings talented people to live and work around it. No one invested in Amherst or Kingston or Durham and now they're trying to catch up. The state of Connecticut is investing $2 billion in the Storrs campus--not because kids are going to Yale, but that the state will continue to lose jobs and a tax base if it doesn't keep its flagship programs at a competitive lavel nationally.

[Saint3333]

App draws 25-30k regardless of opponent.

I agree this is a northeast vs. southeast mentality. College sports are just more popular down here.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

App draws 25-30k regardless of opponent.

I agree this is a northeast vs. southeast mentality. College sports are just more popular down here.

College basketball is still extremely popular in the Northeast.

[asumike83]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. xlolx Incidentally, in the Sun Belt, Idaho will be coming to town.

And KBS will still be packed because we don't count on opponents to fill our stadium, which was my original point.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And KBS will still be packed because we don't count on opponents to fill our stadium, which was my original point.

Good luck with that.

[Mattymc727]

College football in New England is as bandwagon as it gets. I get made fun of for being as big of a UNH football fan as I am. Its professional sports or bust. Granted, Im a huge Pats, Bruins, Sox, and Celts fan myself, I just didnt see a reason to stop there.

I never lived in the south, so I cant really speak from experience, but from talking with friends who have, it seems to be the exact opposite down there.

[Go Green]

College basketball is still extremely popular in the Northeast.

College hockey in NE is nothing to sneeze at either.

[asumike83]

Good luck with that.

If we can get 30K through the door to watch us play Jacksonville or NC Central, I'm not too worried about it. Glad you're rooting for us though.

[darell1976]

College hockey in NE is nothing to sneeze at either.

Its getting more popular with Penn State, and now NC Yale.

[NHwildEcat]

College football in New England is as bandwagon as it gets. I get made fun of for being as big of a UNH football fan as I am. Its professional sports or bust. Granted, Im a huge Pats, Bruins, Sox, and Celts fan myself, I just didnt see a reason to stop there.

I never lived in the south, so I cant really speak from experience, but from talking with friends who have, it seems to be the exact opposite down there.

IMO the New England sports fan en masse is a bandwagon fan. Nobody was talking about the Bruins 5 years ago, and now you can't find anyone who ISN't. The problem with that is most people have no clue what the hell is going on but only tune in when the Cup is on.

Nobody gives me an grief for my UNH support (and I am not even an alum) but I too see no need in stopping at the pro level. Of course I could care less about the NBA (C's) or the Patriots, but I am with you on the other two, and the Revolution.

[NHwildEcat]

This isn't just idle banter. UMass' best attended games in Foxboro have been against UNH in the "Colonial Clash".

http://boards.caazone.com/showthread.php?114508-UMass-vs-UNH-at-Gillette-Stadium-2011-27-attendance-drop-from-2010

Colonial Clash at Gillette
2010 32,848
2011 24,022

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/2012/12/12/umass-football-plagued-attendance-problem/SSLQAgii98Vq8pGqF8xS2M/story.html

"By that measure, the university spent an additional $1.7 million this season, only for the average attendance to decrease to 10,902 from 13,008 the previous year. (In 2011, the Minutemen drew 41,018 to four home games on campus and 24,022 to a “home’’ game against New Hampshire at Gillette.)"

Damn right.

UMass needs UNH. :)

[NHwildEcat]

Its getting more popular with Penn State, and now NC Yale.

It's alway been popular in the the north New England states (and MA). PA is a little tardy to the party.

[Mattymc727]

I would agree with ccd494 on this one. Its almost impossible to garner interest in an area where people have so many different collegiate ties. So many kids end up at the many small liberal arts schools dotted around the region. Without a major BCS player in the area, people look in separate directions. UMASS could win their next 100 football games, and Im certain nobody outside of western Mass or the alumni network would care.

I find all of this stuff fascinating though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If we can get 30K through the door to watch us play Jacksonville or NC Central, I'm not too worried about it. Glad you're rooting for us though.

Two teams that didn't require flights for the visiting team to enjoy Kidd Brewer. Also, I'm pretty sure ASU was in competition for a league title and playoff autobid at the time.

[Sader87]

Two words: UConn envy....the Foxboro move will probably never pay off (in terms of attendance, interest etc)....BC still pretty much "owns" whatever college football following is neutral (i.e. fans that aren't going to their alma mater's games already etc) in Eastern Massachusetts.

I think they'll be fine ultimately in the MAC, and possibly AAC down the road, but they'll never be the "got to go" game to watch in Massachusetts ala many of the flagship state universities across the country.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I would agree with ccd494 on this one. Its almost impossible to garner interest in an area where people have so many different collegiate ties. So many kids end up at the many small liberal arts schools dotted around the region. Without a major BCS player in the area, people look in separate directions. UMASS could win their next 100 football games, and Im certain nobody outside of western Mass or the alumni network would care.

I find all of this stuff fascinating though.

I give Syracuse a lot of credit for their branding. They've basically become the defacto state university of NY despite being a private institution. Heck, they even have banners that say "New York's College Team". As a lifelong 'Cuse fan I kinda like it....

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2948778/SU_Taxi_large.jpg

[Sader87]

Ever been to Syracuse???? Not a hell of a lot else to do in that region....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Ever been to Syracuse???? Not a hell of a lot else to do in that region....

Really? One of the largest malls in the country, terrific state fair, easy access to Finger Lakes/Lake Oneida/Lake Ontario/Thousand Islands, Turning Stone, decent downtown...

I've spent a lot of time in Syracuse and really enjoy the area

[UAalum72]

I give Syracuse a lot of credit for their branding. They've basically become the defacto state university of NY despite being a private institution. Heck, they even have banners that say "New York's College Team". As a lifelong 'Cuse fan I kinda like it....

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2948778/SU_Taxi_large.jpgNobody calls them "New York's College Team" except their own public relations dept., and sportswriters who graduated from there.

[Sader87]

Really? One of the largest malls in the country, terrific state fair, easy access to Finger Lakes/Lake Oneida/Lake Ontario/Thousand Islands, Turning Stone, decent downtown...

I've spent a lot of time in Syracuse and really enjoy the area

Just bustin'....have some good friends from HC that grew up/live there.

[walliver]

Not all fans of SEC or ACC schools dream of going to Big State U.

The South has had very few successful professional teams until lately.
The Atlanta Falcons were routinely bad for many years. The Panthers have only had a few decent years. Tennessee has only recently obtained a team. Jacksonville is routinely unsuccessful (and will probably lose their team soon). Miami really isn't southern. And Texas is like a whole other country. As a result, college football has played the role played by the NFL in the northeast.

Most Clemson fans have never been on the campus. Most UGA fans have never been to Athens. Two of the biggest South Carolina fans I know are Wofford graduates. Fans of non-BCS schools generally will pick (be forced to pick) a BCS school to root for, just as many will pick an NFL team to follow. Clemson's enrollment is very close to that of App State, but puts 70,000+ people in the stands for every game. Even at South Carolina, a large proportion of their ticket-holders have never entered a college classroom (or at least they act that way). Most kids that grow up as USC fans will end up at Coastal, USC-Upstate, USC-Aiken, USC-Beaufort, Lander, Winthrop, CofC, SC State, or one of the privates schools (FU, Wofford, PC, Newberry, Limestone, Anderson, Benedict, Allen, Morris, Erskine, North Greenville, CSU et al)

[asumike83]

Two teams that didn't require flights for the visiting team to enjoy Kidd Brewer. Also, I'm pretty sure ASU was in competition for a league title and playoff autobid at the time.

Yeah... Jacksonville really brought a huge crowd to that one. xrolleyesx

We were in contention for a league title in the sense that we hadn't played a league game yet. It was played on September 6 and was a meaningless money game that we won 56-7.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah... Jacksonville really brought a huge crowd to that one. xrolleyesx

We were in contention for a league title in the sense that we hadn't played a league game yet. It was played on September 6 and was a meaningless money game that we won 56-7.

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.

[asumike83]

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

And the 29,200 who showed up to watch us play NCCU next week were the droves of Central fans, I assume?


App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

We don't count on visiting fans to fill the stands now. I don't see that changing.


Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.

UMass averaged 10K the last year before they moved up and then they decided to move their games 90 miles off campus. Not a great comparison.

[Eagle22]

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.

Considering how relatively few SoCon fans travel to away game venues, I think your comment also rings quite true for the remaining teams in the SoCon.

I wonder what the SoCon will do after they've spent the exit fee money ?

In GSU's case, we actually pick up conference games versus teams who have brought fans to Paulson Stadium in the past, and more importantly get back to a level of play where we can realistically entertain the potential of engaging in home-and-home out of conference series with teams like Marshall, Central Florida, USF, MTSU, ECU and even UCONN, who have brought more fans to our stadium in the past than Elon, Chattanooga and Samford combined.

[cmaxwellgsu]

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.



We'll do what we've always done and still have large crowds. Hell, we'll have over 20k for St. Francis and I would be surprised to see 10 of their fans there. We'll have some type of event for the games like that (Jr. Eagle Day for that game). I'm sure if Idaho was the homecoming game, it would draw as well as App (obviously for very different reasons.) I see no way we'll drop in attendance.

[DoWe]

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.

You clearly have an axe to grind with these schools. Get some help, for your family's sake.

[ecasadoSBU]

I still don't understand why in a region that has pretty conclusively proven its apathy towards college sports you make this move. Success in New England, unless you are the Pats, Celtics, Bruins or Red Sox, is 10,000 sets of eyes on your product.

This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to. Most New Englanders didn't grow up dreaming of going to Big State U and joining your dad's fraternity and wearing your school colors at a tailgate. The numbers of people going to smaller private schools is immense. There are more than 50 colleges IN THE CITY OF BOSTON ALONE. Kids dream schools are Harvard or Yale, where they are then going to disperse around the world, not spend their lives at the nearest big city 100 miles from campus with a huge alumni network and intense demand for college sports tickets. Or kids want to go to Williams or Amherst. Or Berklee if they are a musician. Or Bennington or Middlebury if they want a wildernessy type experience.

Trying to make UMass into a southern style UNC or Alabama where the comings and goings of the Minutemen lead the Globe every day was never realistic. Heck, UConn has had 5x the success of UMass, and unless they are winning a basketball title or Calhoun is spouting off they aren't getting the lead over the Yankees or Red Sox come spring. Stay in your lane and know your role, UMass.

that is a hell of a post. i have to agree. as much as i want SBU to climb to FBS some day.... Its hard for me to imagine Stony Brook ever drawing more than 15-20k fans to a game... Its just hard for College FB in the northeast. there is a lot of people, just not a lot of interest...

[ecasadoSBU]

College football in New England is as bandwagon as it gets. I get made fun of for being as big of a UNH football fan as I am. Its professional sports or bust. Granted, Im a huge Pats, Bruins, Sox, and Celts fan myself, I just didnt see a reason to stop there.

I never lived in the south, so I cant really speak from experience, but from talking with friends who have, it seems to be the exact opposite down there.

story of my life... at least early on when I became a season ticket holder... at this point they don't even bother to comment

[SpiritCymbal]

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5iqYuFmzqg

[NHwildEcat]

story of my life... at least early on when I became a season ticket holder... at this point they don't even bother to comment

It's season tickets to basketball in NH that I would be careful discussing. Talk about an embarassment.

[Mattymc727]

Seems like Charlie Molnar is pretty optimistic that he can turn this region's viewpoint around:

http://www.masslive.com/umassfootball/index.ssf/2013/05/umass_head_coach_charley_molna.html

[citdog]

I still don't understand why in a region that has pretty conclusively proven its apathy towards college sports you make this move. Success in New England, unless you are the Pats, Celtics, Bruins or Red Sox, is 10,000 sets of eyes on your product.

This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to. Most New Englanders didn't grow up dreaming of going to Big State U and joining your dad's fraternity and wearing your school colors at a tailgate. The numbers of people going to smaller private schools is immense. There are more than 50 colleges IN THE CITY OF BOSTON ALONE. Kids dream schools are Harvard or Yale, where they are then going to disperse around the world, not spend their lives at the nearest big city 100 miles from campus with a huge alumni network and intense demand for college sports tickets. Or kids want to go to Williams or Amherst. Or Berklee if they are a musician. Or Bennington or Middlebury if they want a wildernessy type experience.

Trying to make UMass into a southern style UNC or Alabama where the comings and goings of the Minutemen lead the Globe every day was never realistic. Heck, UConn has had 5x the success of UMass, and unless they are winning a basketball title or Calhoun is spouting off they aren't getting the lead over the Yankees or Red Sox come spring. Stay in your lane and know your role, UMass.


Typical anti-Southern bias from a member of the most vile and contemptible group of yankee scum.

[citdog]

I lived in the South. I'm not saying that people don't move, but I have to say, whenever I met someone new the first two questions (before they heard my northern accent) were "What church do you go to?" and "Gamecock or Tiger?"


glad you left. I only wish more of your brethren would get the hint and leave our country. we have taken our quota of you rootless wretches. The inn is full.

[ASUMountaineer]

Two teams that didn't require flights for the visiting team to enjoy Kidd Brewer. Also, I'm pretty sure ASU was in competition for a league title and playoff autobid at the time.

xlolx

[citdog]

"This isn't the South, where collegiate sports and your alma mater are THE second most defining part of your identity behind what church you go to".

Typical anti-Southern bias. While football is certainly more popular in the South, the reason "Big State Universities" have so much attention and focus is because, until 1966, the Southeast had no professional football team. As far as one's personal identity, I certainly can't speak for all Southerners, but it seems to revolve around their community, their family, and their home more than over-publicized allegiances to the Crimson Tide, Bulldogs, etc. Additionally, many more skilled, blue-collar jobs were available in the north for decades; the necessity for a four year degree just wasn't there. The image of a blue-collar neighborhood in downtown Philly, Boston, or Pittsburgh flying the colors of their pro team is, I believe, a scenario with a history beginning many decades before Rankin Smith brought the Falcons to Atlanta. As far small colleges go, the South has plenty with varying degrees of quality, just like the Northeast. And for the record, since 2008, Wofford has had over 1000 students studying in 68 countries on seven continents. The student population is 1500. I was lucky enough for my interim mini semester to go on a month-long international tour with stops in Florence, Rome, Paris and London. I cut grass for two summers for the plane ticket. Northeast schools don't have a monopoly on global connections.

Give 'em HELL Bob!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vPVTqWJd28&bpctr=1371044581

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, the home opener. Jacksonville might bring more fans than Idaho.

App/GSU will sell out, as it basically always does. That game will probably be the showpiece of the Sun Belt. But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

Case in point... UMass. Play a regional rival, UNH, get a "disappointing" 22K. Play Eastern Michigan.... you don't crack 7,000.


xlolx

Nice cogent response. More seriously, starry-eyed ASU fans, let's say your transition is just a tiny bit more rocky than you think. It's November, the Mountaineers are 5-6, and 7-4 Louisiana-Monroe is coming to town. You still think you'll be selling out the place? On a Tuesday?

[Nova09]

I'm not going to go to the extent of LFN and troll you App fans with predictions of doom and misery in your future, but if you think opponents and your record have nothing to do with attendance you haven't been paying any attention to sports trends in, oh as long as sports have existed. Let's look at App attendance numbers form just the past few years, and limit this to out of conference since any conference game should be a big game for App and the opponent will automatically be familiar to the fan base. Last year you played a highly anticipated game against Montana and in-state peer* school Coastal Carolina. Attendance was 30856 and 27619 respectively. The year before you played completely unrelateable NCAT and Sav St. Attendance was down at 26415 and 24917 respectively. So from over 30K to under 25, coming in at roughly 20% lower when your own fans didn't care about the opponent/the opponents fans didn't come. Considering this thread is about UMass's 23% drop, you're not far off. Obviously your baseline is higher so you can handle the decrease and still be in good shape, and I need to reiterate that I am not predicting a decrease when you go FBS, but that's because you got into a conference that fits (at least for now).

*I have no idea if the two of you are actually peer institutions, I meant there are a lot of relationships among alumni of both schools

[ASUMountaineer]

Nice cogent response. More seriously, starry-eyed ASU fans, let's say your transition is just a tiny bit more rocky than you think. It's November, the Mountaineers are 5-6, and 7-4 Louisiana-Monroe is coming to town. You still think you'll be selling out the place? On a Tuesday?

I have no idea. I don't know why you're so interested in App State's move to the Sun Belt, but most of us with an actual interest go into this move knowing that it will be rocky. We never believed it would be easy, but we do believe it will be worth it. There's a distinct difference there.

As for actual spikes or drops in attendance, the visiting team can affect that, but not based on how many fans of the visiting team show up but more so in the interest said opponent generates for actual App fans. Again, a distinct difference.

As for my response, when your objective is to troll then you should expect similar responses.

[ASUMountaineer]

I'm not going to go to the extent of LFN and troll you App fans with predictions of doom and misery in your future, but if you think opponents and your record have nothing to do with attendance you haven't been paying any attention to sports trends in, oh as long as sports have existed. Let's look at App attendance numbers form just the past few years, and limit this to out of conference since any conference game should be a big game for App and the opponent will automatically be familiar to the fan base. Last year you played a highly anticipated game against Montana and in-state peer* school Coastal Carolina. Attendance was 30856 and 27619 respectively. The year before you played completely unrelateable NCAT and Sav St. Attendance was down at 26415 and 24917 respectively. So from over 30K to under 25, coming in at roughly 20% lower when your own fans didn't care about the opponent/the opponents fans didn't come. Considering this thread is about UMass's 23% drop, you're not far off. Obviously your baseline is higher so you can handle the decrease and still be in good shape, and I need to reiterate that I am not predicting a decrease when you go FBS, but that's because you got into a conference that fits (at least for now).

*I have no idea if the two of you are actually peer institutions, I meant there are a lot of relationships among alumni of both schools

1) Coastal Carolina is not an in-state school.

2) You're talking about something different than LFN. He argues that App State relies on fans of visiting teams to fill the stadium. You're arguing that App State fan interest could be decreased by playing different opponents. That's a much more reasonable stance than LFN's. Of course, LFN isn't concern with reason when it comes to App State's move to FBS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

xlolx


I have no idea. I don't know why you're so interested in App State's move to the Sun Belt, but most of us with an actual interest go into this move knowing that it will be rocky. We never believed it would be easy, but we do believe it will be worth it. There's a distinct difference there.

There's a fine line between optimistic (which I understand completely) and being delusional (App can rely on no away presence to have great attendance). I don't see GSU fans making these claims.

Away fans are a significant component of attendance. Not exactly going out on a limb there.


But as for the remaining Sun Belt teams, I think counting on little to no road presence at games consistently is not a good business plan.

QED, not saying "App state relies on visiting fans to fill the stadium"

[asumike83]

I'm not going to go to the extent of LFN and troll you App fans with predictions of doom and misery in your future, but if you think opponents and your record have nothing to do with attendance you haven't been paying any attention to sports trends in, oh as long as sports have existed. Let's look at App attendance numbers form just the past few years, and limit this to out of conference since any conference game should be a big game for App and the opponent will automatically be familiar to the fan base. Last year you played a highly anticipated game against Montana and in-state peer* school Coastal Carolina. Attendance was 30856 and 27619 respectively. The year before you played completely unrelateable NCAT and Sav St. Attendance was down at 26415 and 24917 respectively. So from over 30K to under 25, coming in at roughly 20% lower when your own fans didn't care about the opponent/the opponents fans didn't come. Considering this thread is about UMass's 23% drop, you're not far off. Obviously your baseline is higher so you can handle the decrease and still be in good shape, and I need to reiterate that I am not predicting a decrease when you go FBS, but that's because you got into a conference that fits (at least for now).

*I have no idea if the two of you are actually peer institutions, I meant there are a lot of relationships among alumni of both schools

From your post, it sound like we agree that fans will continue to show up for the conference games because they have the most bearing on the season. Of course, whether it is FCS or FBS, winning is the most important thing. A 4-8 team will certainly not draw as well as 8-4.

Your point as it relates to Montana/Coastal attendance vs. NC A&T/Savannah State is very valid as well. Non-conference scheduling is very important and will likely be even more important as we transition to FBS. If we're able to get a good OOC slate, you'll definitely see it in the attendance. On the other hand, fans won't show up in the same numbers if our non-conference schedule is weak.

[Nova09]

From your post, it sound like we agree that fans will continue to show up for the conference games because they have the most bearing on the season. Of course, whether it is FCS or FBS, winning is the most important thing. A 4-8 team will certainly not draw as well as 8-4.

Your point as it relates to Montana/Coastal attendance vs. NC A&T/Savannah State is very valid as well. Non-conference scheduling is very important and will likely be even more important as we transition to FBS. If we're able to get a good OOC slate, you'll definitely see it in the attendance. On the other hand, fans won't show up in the same numbers if our non-conference schedule is weak.

Glad we're on the same page. To bring it all together, it seemed like what you were saying earlier was that what happened to UMass cannot possibly happen to you because your fans are so great the opponent doesn't matter and your stadium will always be filled no matter what. Obviously you have a stronger fan base than UMass, no one is arguing that, but your fans are still susceptible to disinterest if you end up in a misfit conference playing teams no one cares about and not necessarily contending for the conference championship. That was my only point when I said opponents affect attendance for everyone.

[ASUMountaineer]

Two teams that didn't require flights for the visiting team to enjoy Kidd Brewer. Also, I'm pretty sure ASU was in competition for a league title and playoff autobid at the time.


There's a fine line between optimistic (which I understand completely) and being delusional (App can rely on no away presence to have great attendance). I don't see GSU fans making these claims.

Away fans are a significant component of attendance. Not exactly going out on a limb there.



QED, not saying "App state relies on visiting fans to fill the stadium"

Which is it?

Have you ever been to Kidd Brewer Stadium for an App State game?

Please verify your statement, with actual data, that away fans are a "significant component of [App State's] attendance." If Jacksonville bring 50 fans and App State has 29,000 in attendance, is that "significant?" BTW, I never made a "claim."

I do want to apologize for laughing at your gross mistake about what was "on the line" when App State played Jacksonville. I don't doubt that some visiting teams will bring more fans than other visiting teams. With that said, I don't think "significant" is a good word choice when discussing App State's visiting fan attendance. I think App State fan interest in visiting teams will have a much greater affect on App State's attendance than actual visiting fans.

[asumike83]

There's a fine line between optimistic (which I understand completely) and being delusional (App can rely on no away presence to have great attendance). I don't see GSU fans making these claims.

Away fans are a significant component of attendance. Not exactly going out on a limb there.


Clearly, you know more about the experience and crowd dynamic at KBS than us delusional App fans.

So, let me ask you: which game have you attended at KBS where the away fans accounted for a significant portion of the attendance? I've missed 2-3 home games in the last decade and I could count on one hand the number of teams who've brought more than 1,000 fans to KBS but I'm sure you're more knowledgeable than myself.

[ASUMountaineer]

Clearly, you know more about the experience and crowd dynamic at KBS than us delusional App fans.

So, let me ask you: which game have you attended at KBS where the away fans accounted for a significant portion of the attendance? I've missed 2-3 home games in the last decade and I could count on one hand the number of teams who've brought more than 1,000 fans to KBS but I'm sure you're more knowledgeable than myself.

He's also more knowledgeable about all things App State-related than Chancellor Peacock, AD Charlie Cobb, and the App State BOT. If only they had consulted him...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

He's also more knowledgeable about all things App State-related than Chancellor Peacock, AD Charlie Cobb, and the App State BOT. If only they had consulted him...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/767/35nksf.jpg

[asumike83]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/767/35nksf.jpg

Very cogent response.

Here was my question, in case you missed it:


Clearly, you know more about the experience and crowd dynamic at KBS than us delusional App fans.

So, let me ask you: which game have you attended at KBS where the away fans accounted for a significant portion of the attendance? I've missed 2-3 home games in the last decade and I could count on one hand the number of teams who've brought more than 1,000 fans to KBS but I'm sure you're more knowledgeable than myself.

[ASUMountaineer]

Very cogent response.

Here was my question, in case you missed it:

xlolx

[bkrownd]

Seems like Charlie Molnar is pretty optimistic that he can turn this region's viewpoint around:

http://www.masslive.com/umassfootball/index.ssf/2013/05/umass_head_coach_charley_molna.html

It's all about the W. Win and they will come. This guy better be a miracle worker. Not seeing it yet, but the program had completely lost momentum and direction as he was hired. The future looks very "mid-major" right now.

If this jump was inevitable I wish I could have seen the program do it when it was solid in the 2000's under Whipple or Brown. It would have been a very different story, with a good shot at a winning season the first year. Damn, that was a different time entirely....

I'm sick of those fricken black helmets!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least the lacrosse team went back to traditional colors this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"I have a very doable plan in place," Molnar said. "All 3 [FBS] teams (UMass, UConn, BC) should play each other on an annual basis and each one of us should play 1 of the 3 New England based [FCS] teams (Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island). Not only will our fans in New England love to see who the New England champion is every year, we would certainly help elevate the [FCS] programs in the region."

That's real interesting. In all honesty if something like this could be set up it would be a real boon to everyone involved.

[KAUMASS]

UMass's goal to move up was not to become a Michigan. It's intention was to play and be at the party with other state flagship school peers. UMass simply just wanted to lose less money than staying in FCS/CAA. Kraft allows us to play in Gillette rent free and it was a great fit to allow us to make some improvements necessary to McGuirk, which was required to allow FBS MAC Games to be played on campus. We will have a few mac games on campus starting in 2014 and will play bigger name schools at Gillette in the future when most of our games will be at the campus facility. The crowds will come over the course of a few years at Gillette and campus games should be close to capacity at around 17k for the first few years until they expand seating.

[DFW HOYA]

UMass's goal to move up was not to become a Michigan. It's intention was to play and be at the party with other state flagship school peers.

Which peers? Not Maine, UNH, and Vermont. UConn?

[aceinthehole]

"I have a very doable plan in place," Molnar said. "All 3 [FBS] teams (UMass, UConn, BC) should play each other on an annual basis and each one of us should play 1 of the 3 New England based [FCS] teams (Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island). Not only will our fans in New England love to see who the New England champion is every year, we would certainly help elevate the [FCS] programs in the region."

Good stuff, but there are more than just 3 FCS teams in New England - there are 11 FCS team (4 public and 7 private) vs. 3 FBS teams (2 public, 1 private).

New England Division I College Football

FBS (3 total)
Public (2) - UConn and UMass
Private (1)- Boston College

FCS (11)
Public (4) - CCSU, Maine, UNH, URI
Private (7) - Brown, Bryant, Dartmouth, Harvard, Holy Cross, Sacred Heart, Yale

By State:
Massachusetts (4) BC, UMass / Harvard, Holy Cross
Connecticut (4) UConn / CCSU, SHU, Yale
Rhode Island (3) URI, Brown, Bryant
New Hampshire (2) Dartmouth, UNH
Maine (1) UM
Vermont (0)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Good stuff, but there are more than just 3 FCS teams in New England - there are 10 FCS team (4 public and 6 private) vs. 3 FBS teams (2 public, 1 private).

New England Division I College Football

FBS (3 total)
Public (2) - UConn and UMass
Private (1)- Boston College

FCS (10)
Public (4) - CCSU, Maine, UNH, URI
Private (6) - Brown, Bryant, Dartmouth, Harvard, Sacred Heart, Yale

By State:
Connecticut (4) UConn / CCSU, SHU, Yale
Massachusetts (3) BC, UMass / Harvard
Rhode Island (3) URI, Brown, Bryant
New Hampshire (2) Dartmouth, UNH
Maine (1) UM
Vermont (0)

You forgot Holy Cross, which earns you a rep point from me... xlolx... but your point is well taken. I think the intent was to preserve some continuity with the old Yankee Conference days, but you bring up a good point - what's Maine in this scenario? Ugly stepchild?

[KAUMASS]

^
^
^


State flagship schools that play FBS Football.....which is the majority. UNH, Maine, URI, North & South Dakota St, Montana ST, Delaware, all FCS football. Any other state flagship schools play FCS football? No team at U. Vermont. New York SUNY schools have Buffalo at FBS, New Jersey has Rutgers..

[aceinthehole]

You forgot Holy Cross, which earns you a rep point from me... xlolx... but your point is well taken. I think the intent was to preserve some continuity with the old Yankee Conference days, but you bring up a good point - what's Maine in this scenario? Ugly stepchild?

HC is easily forgotten - but I corrected my post.

Clearly he was referring to the 3 former Yankee conference teams, but CCSU is the 4th public FCS team in New England. Maine, along with UNH and URI, is firmly established as historic, former rivals of UConn and UMass - unfortunately, Central is not.

What I does think this shows is how private schools dominate New England in general. In FCS football, you have 4 Ivy League programs, 2 Catholic schools (historic HC and modern SHU), and a newbie in Bryant. Is there another area of the country or a large State with a similar concentration of private FCS programs?

Bottom line, football in New England is not like anywhere else in the country. It has limited appeal outside of those DIRECTLY connected to the schools themselves. There is limited non-alumni interest in all 14 programs. BC and UConn may get more "press" and media attention than the rest, but in general these are just the 2 best supported programs in region and don't compare well with their National "peers"

[MplsBison]

^
^
^


State flagship schools that play FBS Football.....which is the majority. UNH, Maine, URI, North & South Dakota St, Montana ST, Delaware, all FCS football. Any other state flagship schools play FCS football? No team at U. Vermont. New York SUNY schools have Buffalo at FBS, New Jersey has Rutgers..

U of Montana, U of North Dakota and U of South Dakota are all flagships in their respective states playing FCS football.

That's it though. Basically just the states with small populations that have football playing flagships -- with the obvious and incredible exception being Wyoming.


What's odd is that the U of Wyoming itself doesn't really have any huge enrollment or market advantage over the FCS public flagships at all...yet its football budget is more than $7 million, total athletics budget more than $30million, 35k football stadium and the school itself has $325 million endowment.

Where did Wyoming get all its money??

Of course, the counter-example to Wyoming being so far above the other small state FCS public flagships as far as money goes is Delaware, with more than a billion dollars endowment, $25million athletics budget and 5.6 million football budget. Probably should be in FBS.

[MplsBison]

HC is easily forgotten - but I corrected my post.

Clearly he was referring to the 3 former Yankee conference teams, but CCSU is the 4th public FCS team in New England. Maine, along with UNH and URI, is firmly established as historic, former rivals of UConn and UMass - unfortunately, Central is not.

What I does think this shows is how private schools dominate New England in general. In FCS football, you have 4 Ivy League programs, 2 Catholic schools (historic HC and modern SHU), and a newbie in Bryant. Is there another area of the country or a large State with a similar concentration of private FCS programs?

Bottom line, football in New England is not like anywhere else in the country. It has limited appeal outside of those DIRECTLY connected to the schools themselves. There is limited non-alumni interest in all 14 programs. BC and UConn may get more "press" and media attention than the rest, but in general these are just the 2 best supported programs in region and don't compare well with their National "peers"

CCSU doesn't count for public if you simply say public flagship.

[MarkyMark]

U of Montana, U of North Dakota and U of South Dakota are all flagships in their respective states playing FCS football.

That's it though. Basically just the states with small populations that have football playing flagships -- with the obvious and incredible exception being Wyoming.


What's odd is that the U of Wyoming itself doesn't really have any huge enrollment or market advantage over the FCS public flagships at all...yet its football budget is more than $7 million, total athletics budget more than $30million, 35k football stadium and the school itself has $325 million endowment.

Where did Wyoming get all its money??

Of course, the counter-example to Wyoming being so far above the other small state FCS public flagships as far as money goes is Delaware, with more than a billion dollars endowment, $25million athletics budget and 5.6 million football budget. Probably should be in FBS.

Missouri State is technically a flagship I believe. Are Illinois St. and Indiana State also flagships?

[CrazyCat]

U of Montana, U of North Dakota and U of South Dakota are all flagships in their respective states playing FCS football.


The state of Montana has 2 "flagship" universities. One is the "flagship" of the University of Montana system and the other is the "flagship" of the Montana State University system. FYI

[DFW HOYA]

The state of Montana has 2 "flagship" universities. One is the "flagship" of the University of Montana system and the other is the "flagship" of the Montana State University system. FYI

Truth be told, there is one flagship per state, and it's usually the "University of..." as opposed to "...State University" (Ohio and Pennsylvania excepted).

[MplsBison]

Missouri State is technically a flagship I believe. Are Illinois St. and Indiana State also flagships?

None of those you just listed are.

Several "normal schools" have adopted "[State name] State University" when available, to make themselves appear to be flagships within their states.

[MplsBison]

The state of Montana has 2 "flagship" universities. One is the "flagship" of the University of Montana system and the other is the "flagship" of the Montana State University system. FYI

He already listed NDSU, SDSU and MSU as flagships - which is correct.

[MplsBison]

Truth be told, there is one flagship per state, and it's usually the "University of..." as opposed to "...State University" (Ohio and Pennsylvania excepted).

Laughably wrong...and you probably know it. Oh and you forgot Louisiana in your rule exception.

Especially wrong in those states with parallel, separate and equal university systems (Texas/Texas A&M comes to mind).

[DFW HOYA]

Laughably wrong...and you probably know it. Oh and you forgot Louisiana in your rule exception.
Especially wrong in those states with parallel, separate and equal university systems (Texas/Texas A&M comes to mind).

Yes, missed LSU, and probably one other in hindsight. I'll leave it to you if NDSU holds more weight than UND in-state.

The university systems of Texas and Texas A&M are not parallel to each other. The UT affiliates (UT-Arlington, UT-Brownsville, UT-Dallas, UT-El Paso, UT-Permian Basin, UT-San Antonio, UT-Tyler, and Pan American) are larger (141,000 students) and generally stronger academically than the A&M system (A&M-Corpus Christi, A&M-Kingsville (formerly Texas A&I), A&M-Commerce (formerly East Texas State) West Texas A&M, Tarleton State, Prairie View A&M, and a few other smaller schools) By endowment, the UT system controls $18 billion, the A&M system $7 billion.

[Laker]

Missouri State is technically a flagship I believe. Are Illinois St. and Indiana State also flagships?


Truth be told, there is one flagship per state, and it's usually the "University of..." as opposed to "...State University" (Ohio and Pennsylvania excepted).


None of those you just listed are.

Several "normal schools" have adopted "[State name] State University" when available, to make themselves appear to be flagships within their states.

Is there a list of "flagship" schools anywhere? I know that In Minnesota there isn't any doubt, but there is in other states. I've just never seen an actual list.

[MplsBison]

Yes, missed LSU, and probably one other in hindsight. I'll leave it to you if NDSU holds more weight than UND in-state.

The university systems of Texas and Texas A&M are not parallel to each other. The UT affiliates (UT-Arlington, UT-Brownsville, UT-Dallas, UT-El Paso, UT-Permian Basin, UT-San Antonio, UT-Tyler, and Pan American) are larger (141,000 students) and generally stronger academically than the A&M system (A&M-Corpus Christi, A&M-Kingsville (formerly Texas A&I), A&M-Commerce (formerly East Texas State) West Texas A&M, Tarleton State, Prairie View A&M, and a few other smaller schools) By endowment, the UT system controls $18 billion, the A&M system $7 billion.

Ohio, Pennsylvania and Louisiana are the only states where there is a single flagship that takes the name [State name] State University and the corresponding University of [State name] isn't close.

Regardless of the stature of their systems, the UT system and the TA&M system are undoubtedly parallel, along with the Houston system, North Texas system and probably at least one other system. Parallel does not imply equivalent importance. Similar to how there are parallel UC and CSU systems in California.

But the question at hand is not systems but rather flagship universities themselves. In Texas there are unquestionably two, Austin and College Station.

In California, you could possibly make a case for Berkeley but would at least have to consider Los Angelas and while noting that San Francisco, San Diego and Santa Barbara are top research schools with Davis and Irvine to a lesser extent.

[Babar]

Truth be told, there is one flagship per state, and it's usually the "University of..." as opposed to "...State University" (Ohio and Pennsylvania excepted).

The state of Florida has legally designated three flagships: UF, FSU, and USF.


Ohio, Pennsylvania and Louisiana are the only states where there is a single flagship that takes the name [State name] State University and the corresponding University of [State name] isn't close.

Regardless of the stature of their systems, the UT system and the TA&M system are undoubtedly parallel, along with the Houston system, North Texas system and probably at least one other system. Parallel does not imply equivalent importance. Similar to how there are parallel UC and CSU systems in California.

But the question at hand is not systems but rather flagship universities themselves. In Texas there are unquestionably two, Austin and College Station.

In California, you could possibly make a case for Berkeley but would at least have to consider Los Angelas and while noting that San Francisco, San Diego and Santa Barbara are top research schools with Davis and Irvine to a lesser extent.

In Pennysylvania there are three special flagship universities, all classified as "state-related" rather than public (thus some of the notorious problems with public oversight and open records.) They are Penn State, Temple, and the University of Pittsburgh.

The UT and A&M systems are in a separate class from Houston/Tech/UNT/etc. both financially and legally. They're established and funded by the Texas Constitution.

All the UC schools are on the top tier of the three-tiered California system, even if Berkeley and UCLA are primus inter pares. San Francisco basically doesn't have an undergrad population. Davis, Irvine, Santa Barbara and San Diego are all AAU members.

Edit: Forgot about Temple!

[Babar]

Is there a list of "flagship" schools anywhere? I know that In Minnesota there isn't any doubt, but there is in other states. I've just never seen an actual list.

There's no list. In some states it's official, in some states it's unofficial, and in some states it's actually debatable.

Edit: Hah! Google says I'm wrong. There is indeed a list of flagships (1 per state, which definitely conflicts with some state legislatures' ideas of flagships) promulgated by various bodies.

Edit 2: This is apparently not the only list of flagships floating around. It's as official as you think it is.

University of Alabama-Tuscaloosa
University of Alaska-Fairbanks
University of Arizona
University of Arkansas
University of California-Berkeley
University of Colorado-Boulder
University of Connecticut-Storrs
University of Delaware
University of Florida-Gainesville
University of Georgia
University of Hawaii-Manoa
University of Idaho
University of Illinois-Urbana
Indiana University-Bloomington
University of Iowa
University of Kansas
University of Kentucky
Louisiana State University
University of Maine
University of Maryland-College Park
University of Massachusetts-Amherst
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University of Minnesota-Twin Cities
University of Mississippi-Oxford
University of Missouri-Columbia
University of Montana-Missoula
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
University of Nevada-Reno
University of New Hampshire
Rutgers-New Brunswick
University of New Mexico
SUNY-Buffalo
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill
University of North Dakota
Ohio State University
University of Oklahoma-Norman
University of Oregon
Penn State
University of Rhode Island
University of South Carolina
University of S. Dakota-Vermillion
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
University of Texas-Austin
University of Utah
University of Vermont
University of Virginia
University of Washington
West Virginia University
University of Wisconsin-Madison
University of Wyoming

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The state of Florida has legally designated three flagships: UF, FSU, and USF.



In Pennysylvania there are two special flagship universities, both classified as "state-related" rather than public (thus some of the notorious problems with public oversight and open records.) They are Penn State and the University of Pittsburgh.

The UT and A&M systems are in a separate class from Houston/Tech/UNT/etc. both financially and legally.

All the UC schools are on the top tier of the three-tiered California system, even if Berkeley and UCLA are primus inter pares. San Francisco basically doesn't have an undergrad population. Davis, Irvine, Santa Barbara and San Diego are all AAU members.

Temple shares the same status as PSU and Pitt in Pennsylvania.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is apparently not the only list of flagships floating around. It's as official as you think it is.


University of North Dakota


Hm.

[ecasadoSBU]

Can the fall of the Ivy League be one of the many reasons why college football in the Northeast has loss competitiveness with the South?

If we consider the significance of Harvard/Yale/Penn/Princeton who all had major stadiums and were very popular back then... the fall of the Ivy League left the Northeast without Big Football schools for a while... I think this can be a factor why we lack major following of college football today. I mean, who else has a stadium as Big as Yale Bowl today in New England?

If the Ivy would've gone the Division I-A/FBS/BCS route... Northeast college Football would've been a totally different story today...

Does any one agree?

[Babar]

Can the fall of the Ivy League be one of the many reasons why college football in the Northeast has loss competitiveness with the South?

If we consider the significance of Harvard/Yale/Penn/Princeton who all had major stadiums and were very popular back then... the fall of the Ivy League left the Northeast without Big Football schools for a while... I think this can be a factor why we lack major following of college football today. I mean, who else has a stadium as Big as Yale Bowl today in New England?

If the Ivy would've gone the Division I-A/FBS/BCS route... Northeast college Football would've been a totally different story today...

Does any one agree?

I agree. I think football in the northeast would look very different.

[Sader87]

Can the fall of the Ivy League be one of the many reasons why college football in the Northeast has loss competitiveness with the South?

If we consider the significance of Harvard/Yale/Penn/Princeton who all had major stadiums and were very popular back then... the fall of the Ivy League left the Northeast without Big Football schools for a while... I think this can be a factor why we lack major following of college football today. I mean, who else has a stadium as Big as Yale Bowl today in New England?

If the Ivy would've gone the Division I-A/FBS/BCS route... Northeast college Football would've been a totally different story today...

Does any one agree?

I don't really agree completely with this. By the time the Ivies dropped to 1-AA status in 1981, for the most part their following/play on the field was essentially at a "FCS level" overall. Better than they are now but not really close to where they were say 10, 20 years prior to 1981.

The thing that really hurt Northeast football imo was not having Penn St being a part of/joining a football league with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers West Virginia etc etc If the "East Indies" as they were once known had formed a formal conference with Penn St that would have changed college football in the Northeast.

[Go Green]

I don't really agree completely with this. By the time the Ivies dropped to 1-AA status in 1981, for the most part their following/play on the field was essentially at a "FCS level" overall. Better than they are now but not really close to where they were say 10, 20 years prior to 1981.

I hear this all the time. I know that the media treated the Ivy better in the 1960s and 1970s. If the Ivy team from that era went undefeated in league play and beat the two other teams that also became I-AA after 1981, then that team was ranked in the AP poll.

But that doesn't mean that the teams were better. I keep looking over old records for some tangible proof that the Ivy teams could play with the Alabamas, Penn States, USCs, Michigans, and Notre Dames in the 1960s. Other than the occassional victory over a military academy, or a BCS team that was having a terrible year, I don't see it.

Really- what's the difference between the 1970 Dartmouth team and the 1986 Penn team other than the fact that the 1970 Dartmouth team got more media love? Both kicked the crap out of Ivy competition. Dartmouth killed then-small schools UMass and an awful Holy Cross team OOC. Penn beat Bucknell, Lafayette and.... Navy. Yet the 1970s Dartmouth team is widely regarded as vastly superior than the 1986 Penn team and every other post-1981 Ivy team.

xconfusedx

[Sader87]

The very good Ivy teams of the 60's and 70's (Yale '68, Dartmouth '70 etc) were a bit better than the Ivy post 1-AA teams imo.....respective to the rest of the college football world anyway. I'm not saying Dartmouth '70 beats Penn St '70 but it would have been much better game than say Penn '86 vs Penn St '86.

[UAalum72]

[QUOTE=Go Green;1969150]I hear this all the time. I know that the media treated the Ivy better in the 1960s and 1970s. If the Ivy team from that era went undefeated in league play and beat the two other teams that also became I-AA after 1981, then that team was ranked in the AP poll./QUOTE]
People who complain about East Coast Bias today should try to imagine it in the 50's when just the states with the Ivy colleges had almost a quarter of the US population.

[DFW HOYA]

The thing that really hurt Northeast football imo was not having Penn St being a part of/joining a football league with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers West Virginia etc etc If the "East Indies" as they were once known had formed a formal conference with Penn St that would have changed college football in the Northeast.

This is often blamed on the Big East but the antipathy towards adding Penn State was due to PSU's scheduling attitude with other independents such as Syracuse and Pitt.

But how different would things have been if the eight Eastern I-A independents had joined together?

Boston College
Holy Cross
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Villanova
West Virginia

[MplsBison]

The state of Florida has legally designated three flagships: UF, FSU, and USF.



In Pennysylvania there are three special flagship universities, all classified as "state-related" rather than public (thus some of the notorious problems with public oversight and open records.) They are Penn State, Temple, and the University of Pittsburgh.

The UT and A&M systems are in a separate class from Houston/Tech/UNT/etc. both financially and legally. They're established and funded by the Texas Constitution.

All the UC schools are on the top tier of the three-tiered California system, even if Berkeley and UCLA are primus inter pares. San Francisco basically doesn't have an undergrad population. Davis, Irvine, Santa Barbara and San Diego are all AAU members.

Edit: Forgot about Temple!

Good post. I enjoy reading your responses and I owe you some responses from some fantastic replys you made to me a while ago...just never got to them.


I don't doubt you for a second, but I'd love to see some type of state government website showing the legal status of those three as "official" flagships for Florida and Pennsylvania respectively. I know PA is something of an odd case, with the "public-related" thing.


UCSF is basically just graduate school, yes I realize. But they spend a TON in research, so I considered them to be a top tier university in that regard. I wonder if UCSF used to be considered "Cal SF" and related back to Berkeley in the same sense that UCD used to be considered "Cal Davis" and was the ag school for Berkeley. Yes all the UC schools are incredible institutions and world class universities. Nice use of "primus inter pares", that's a new one for me. Must be lawyer speak (and that's "lawr-yur", not "loy-er" xthumbsupx ).


Also very much realize that UT and TA&M systems are separate from other Texas university systems. Was just trying to emphasize the point of parallel systems and different concepts of "flagship" within states. For example, Denton would easily be the flagship of the UNT system but would never be considered a flagship in general for the state of Texas. Lubbock probably falls into the same boat, but much closer to College Station and Austin.


Truly, my overall point is that basically every state is unique and you have to take it case by case. It's extremely difficult to state a simple, general theory of flagships that covers every state.

[MplsBison]

There's no list. In some states it's official, in some states it's unofficial, and in some states it's actually debatable.

Edit: Hah! Google says I'm wrong. There is indeed a list of flagships (1 per state, which definitely conflicts with some state legislatures' ideas of flagships) promulgated by various bodies.

Edit 2: This is apparently not the only list of flagships floating around. It's as official as you think it is.

Bunk list. I would say it's as official as far as I can throw you. All they did was basically take the namesake/most popular public school's athletics team for each state. And in NY that would still probably be debatable.

[Go Green]

I'm not saying Dartmouth '70 beats Penn St '70 but it would have been much better game than say Penn '86 vs Penn St '86.

Well, sure. Penn State 1986 were the national champions. xrotatehx

If you're saying that 1970s Dartmouth would have done better against the Bluebonnet Bowl teams than 1986 Penn would have, we will agree to disagree.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can the fall of the Ivy League be one of the many reasons why college football in the Northeast has loss competitiveness with the South?

If we consider the significance of Harvard/Yale/Penn/Princeton who all had major stadiums and were very popular back then... the fall of the Ivy League left the Northeast without Big Football schools for a while... I think this can be a factor why we lack major following of college football today. I mean, who else has a stadium as Big as Yale Bowl today in New England?

If the Ivy would've gone the Division I-A/FBS/BCS route... Northeast college Football would've been a totally different story today...

Does any one agree?

Very much so. Harvard and Yale were consistent elite teams of the Northeast, with the occasional Penn, Princeton, Columbia and Dartmouth sprinkled in. Army and Navy were bigger, but Harvard and Yale were on par with those teams, mostly. It wasn't even a debate until Doug Flutie went to BC. It had been like that since Rutgers faced Princeton in the 1860s.

When BC made its run, they made a bid to be the "Northeast's big-time team" in the 1980s along with Syracuse. Mostly, though, Northeasterners rallied behind Penn State after 1986 and never looked back at the Ivy League.

Personally, I think the beginning of the end came with Big East expansion to Cincy, Miami (FL) and South Florida, coupled with BC's move to the ACC. After that expansion Big East champion never really felt like a Eastern regional champion the same way Harvard and Yale did in the 1970s, while BC's new "rivalries" with Maryland and NC State have then, as now, been met largely with a gigantic yawn from the Boston area.