Semi OT: Towson cuts baseball, men's soccer programs

[hebmskebm]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-03-08/business/bal-towson-president-decides-to-cut-baseball-mens-soccer-20130308_1_maravene-loeschke-towson-president-towson-officials

Towson baseball played yesterday against Delaware with black tape over their team name on their uniforms.

[NoCoDanny]

They needed 10 cops to protect the president? That's a bit overkill huh?

[superman7515]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?129531-Towson-Drops-Baseball-amp-Soccer

[CID1990]

What a cừnt.

Sounds like a War on Men.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Loeschke said Friday that Towson representatives were in talks with Schuerholz about moving his name to another campus building. Schuerholz said he had not heard from Towson.

“The next conversation I have with them about what they plan to do with the stadium or the money I’ve given will be the first,” he said.

Schuerholz declined to discuss whether he’d continue supporting his alma mater.

“I’m really most upset for the kids,” he said. “This is what brought them to Towson, and they were supposed to learn from the school how to do the right thing.”

Asked if the decision will damage his connection to Towson, Mike Gill said, “That’s one where I have to take a deep breath. But my disappointment is significant. … We’ll get over soccer and baseball, but it’s a trend that creates more questions than it answers about where the university is headed.”

Baseball coach Mike Gottlieb was prevented from attending the meeting when his players learned the team would be cut. He had been called to a separate room, where a Towson official handed him his termination papers, effective June 7. Gottlieb played for the Tigers in 1978-79 and has been with the program ever since.

“This isn’t about Title IX,” he said. “This is about money. A budget has been created in athletics that could not be sustained, and the priorities of the department changed. Anyone who tells you anything differently is lying.”

Oof.

[DamascusTiger]

Back when I was in school at Towson they tried to cut football, but that was reversed and before we made the move to the CAA. These cuts have been talked about for a long time and were first made public last fall. The AD made a report to the President who then had a Task Force review them. That group backed up the AD and the President made her decision. Football is back and is doing great, our basketball team had its best season in almost 20 years so things are great at Towson. I hate that teams have to be cut for financial and Title 9 reasons, but if that is what has to happen to give us strong teams in sports that people care about then I am ok with that. No one goes to baseball games and lax is a much bigger deal in the spring in Maryland on the college level. The O's are the baseball team around the state and especially in Bmore. As for soccer, it is a great sport for kids but no one goes to those games either. Football averages close to a sellout every game and baseball and soccer games combined do not draw as many people as are in the marching band.

[JSUBison]

“This isn’t about Title IX,” he said.
xlolx

So looking at Towson's website, that will leave 5 men's sports and 13, yes 13 women's sports. I'm glad that young girls today will still have a future opprotunity to twirl a fancy ribbon tied to a stick in the sport of gymnastics.

[DamascusTiger]

Towson will have 13 women's sports and 6 men's sports as men's tennis is being reinstated next year after being discontinued a few years back. Towson has 61% women at the school so the number of sports are in line with the enrollment.

[CFBfan]

Towson will have 13 women's sports and 6 men's sports as men's tennis is being reinstated next year after being discontinued a few years back. Towson has 61% women at the school so the number of sports are in line with the enrollment.

c'mon, that's absurd!!!!!

[DFW HOYA]

Any college president who has a security detail larger than the governor is in the wrong job.

[Laker]

Any college president who has a security detail larger than the governor is in the wrong job.

Agreed. xthumbsupx

[Hammerhead]

Does this mean Towson won't be moving up to the FBS anytime soon?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With ODU and Georgia State leaving, and Towson dropping, the CAA is down to 8 teams in men's soccer. In baseball, 7 teams.

Now imagine JMU leaving for a second.

That's two CAA sports, and they're not the only ones, that are on the precipice of losing an autobid to the NCAAs.

[PaladinFan]

My thinking is if you cannot afford a full buffet of college sports, you don't have the type of money to make a "national" football or basketball program.

I like football. I really do. I hate how it consumes universities.

[CID1990]

I like football. I really do. I hate how it consumes universities.

This.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Ivytalk]

My thinking is if you cannot afford a full buffet of college sports, you don't have the type of money to make a "national" football or basketball program.

I like football. I really do. I hate how it consumes universities.

Well said.

[49RFootballNow]

With women becoming the dominate amount of future college students, Title IX is going to turn male collegiate sports into a basketball/football only prospect.

It never made sense to have it at a 1 to 1 ratio because that's not a realistic ratio of how many women want to play sports compared to their male counterparts.

[DFW HOYA]

With women becoming the dominate amount of future college students, Title IX is going to turn male collegiate sports into a basketball/football only prospect.


Things will get even murkier once students start adopting distance learning via online courses. Johnny Manziel isn't setting foot on campus at Texas A&M until spring drills because he's taking all online classes (at home or wherever his travels take him).

[NHwildEcat]

It is sad when a school has to cut sports like baseball and soccer...if Towson were really concerned with costs, they would have looked to the football team to cut costs...

Ending two sports so that they can continue to waste money on football is a joke.

UNH doesn't have baseball either...and I still find that to be absurd.

[JUFan]

My thinking is if you cannot afford a full buffet of college sports, you don't have the type of money to make a "national" football or basketball program.

I like football. I really do. I hate how it consumes universities.

This is why FCS helps with div 1 schools. There's no way to play with the big boys on all levels. And football is expensive to compete in for most schools. Basketball and baseball are cheaper to run and compete in.

[henfan]

It is sad when a school has to cut sports like baseball and soccer...if Towson were really concerned with costs, they would have looked to the football team to cut costs...

Ending two sports so that they can continue to waste money on football is a joke.

UNH doesn't have baseball either...and I still find that to be absurd.

What's absurb and irresponsible is sponsoring sports with little to no financial/fan support, especially in these tough economic times. Like it or not, FB, MBB, WBB and MLAX provide the most bang for the buck at TU. Of course, gender equity balance is also a priority.

If TU can still provide competitive opportunities for its student with club and intramural sports, they should do it. This is one way to meet the school's mission without bankrupting the AD.

[heath]

What's absurb and irresponsible is sponsoring sports with little to no financial/fan support, especially in these tough economic times. Like it or not, FB, MBB, WBB and MLAX provide the most bang for the buck at TU. Of course, gender equity balance is also a priority.

If TU can still provide competitive opportunities for its student with club and intramural sports, they should do it. This is one way to meet the school's mission without bankrupting the AD.

If what you say is true,then MOST FCS sports would be cancelled. Football can even be a strain on the budget at many schools. There are no money makers in womens sports. I guess all the teams should become club and intramural to save a few bucks in this economy,unless........Obama gets involved and makes the rich take care of FCS sports programs.xsmiley_wix BTW,Towson does have a very good club Lax team.

[henfan]

If what you say is true,then MOST FCS sports would be cancelled.

No, they obviously would not. The real world is not as absolutist as you make it out to be. Of course, there are limitations on the number of sports required in order to maintain D-I membership, along with Title IX considerations.

It's not what I say that matters; it's the actions being taken time and time again by many D-I schools over many years. MBB, WBB, MLAX & FB have enough appeal to actually sell tickets and bring alums back to campus; the other sports, not so much. While FB expenses are high, the sport also brings the most people to campus. FB, along with MBB, are the two most attended sports at TU, so there's little question on what is important to them.

If it comes to the point where TU thinks that FB or any other program isn't adding value, they have and will axe them as sponsored sports... and rightfully so.

[heath]

No, they obviously would not. The real world is not as absolutist as you make it out to be. Of course, there are limitations on the number of sports required in order to maintain D-I membership, along with Title IX considerations.

It's not what I say that matters; it's the actions being taken time and time again by many D-I schools over many years. MBB, WBB, MLAX & FB have enough appeal to actually sell tickets and bring alums back to campus; the other sports, not so much. While FB expenses are high, the sport also brings the most people to campus. FB, along with MBB, are the two most attended sports at TU, so there's little question on what is important to them.

If it comes to the point where TU thinks that FB or any other program isn't adding value, they have and will axe them as sponsored sports... and rightfully so.

Rightfully so, since not only Towson,but many other FCS schools think that since Football or any other program isn't adding value, lets just AXE them allxlolxand rightfully soxlolx BTW henFAN,how many sports have you supported by getting your butt in the seats? College sports are designed for lo$$,but provide entertainment,get used to it.xthumbsupx

[hebmskebm]

I just noticed there are a surprising number of conferences that are one or two dropped teams away from losing their baseball AQ, or are there already. A-East: 6, CAA: (next year) 8, Horizon: 5, MVC: 8 (7 if Creighton leaves), NEC (next year) 7, Summit: 6.

[henfan]

Rightfully so, since not only Towson,but many other FCS schools think that since Football or any other program isn't adding value, lets just AXE them allxlolxand rightfully soxlolx BTW henFAN,how many sports have you supported by getting your butt in the seats? College sports are designed for lo$$,but provide entertainment,get used to it.xthumbsupx

Entertainment?! The school's primary responsibility is to provide educational opportunities to its students and to do so in a fiscally responsible manner. Athletics are nice benefits of campus life and schools often do their best to provide those outlets for students. TU is not required to utilize valuable resources on NCAA-sponsored programs and isn't going to do so unless they feel there is sufficient need and support for them. In this case, TU decided that baseball & men's soccer weren't providing the best bang for the buck compared with other sports. It's really not that difficult to understand.

In a perfect world, it would be great if every AD was flush with money and could afford to sponsor every sport known to man at the highest level. That's not reality.

[NHwildEcat]

What's absurb and irresponsible is sponsoring sports with little to no financial/fan support, especially in these tough economic times. Like it or not, FB, MBB, WBB and MLAX provide the most bang for the buck at TU. Of course, gender equity balance is also a priority.

If TU can still provide competitive opportunities for its student with club and intramural sports, they should do it. This is one way to meet the school's mission without bankrupting the AD.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. But I doubt Towson is making a profit on football, basketball sure. I think it is hard to lose money on bball seeing as how the costs are so cheap. But the costs to participate in college football are the highest. I would argue that if TU wanted to provide the most opportunity to their students they would have cut football and kept two entirely different sports that fall into two different semesters and sports seasons. Baseball and soccer are no money makers, but they are cheap. I see no real savings in this cut by TU.

[ccd494]

I just noticed there are a surprising number of conferences that are one or two dropped teams away from losing their baseball AQ, or are there already. A-East: 6, CAA: (next year) 8, Horizon: 5, MVC: 8 (7 if Creighton leaves), NEC (next year) 7, Summit: 6.

The NCAA keeps making it harder and harder for northern schools to sponsor baseball.

[NHwildEcat]

The NCAA keeps making it harder and harder for northern schools to sponsor baseball.

Atleast America East will add another baseball team next season, with the addition of UMass-Lowell. (7 out of 9 members isn't too bad)...UNH doesn't field a team, who is the other AE school? Vermont I assume.

[henfan]

I would argue that if TU wanted to provide the most opportunity to their students they would have cut football and kept two entirely different sports that fall into two different semesters and sports seasons. Baseball and soccer are no money makers, but they are cheap. I see no real savings in this cut by TU.

Which is why you aren't an administrator.

FB adds value that goes well beyond reported revenues. Sure, there's ticket sales & donations that come as a direct result of the FB & MBB program but there's also less tangible, but no less significant, hidden revenues that come in the form of merchandising and contributions elsewhere to the university as a result of the connection between FB and alums. When was the last time that BB & MSOC were on national or regional television? TU FB provides marketing opportunities that BB and MSOC can't touch. These are elements that that TU and many other FCS schools value highly, despite the fact that FB expenses tend to be higher than revenues. If FB didn't provide added benefits, most current FCS schools wouldn't sponsor the sport.

Baseball & soccer aren't "cheap", when you consider the costs to house, feed and educate the athletes and all of the associated travel, equipment, facility maintenance, insurance and other costs. Aside from the athletes participating, those sports garner little support on and off campus and provide almost no merchandising or marketing benefits for the school. What benefit does the school derive from sponsoring these sports as compared with offering them at the club level?

To illustrate my point, it's not insignificant that we're having this discussion on a FB M/B instead of on a BB or MSOC M/B... if they even exist.

[NHwildEcat]

Which is why you aren't an administrator.

FB adds value that goes well beyond reported revenues. Sure, there's ticket sales & donations that come as a direct result of the FB & MBB program but there's also less tangible, but no less significant, hidden revenues that come in the form of merchandising and contributions elsewhere to the university as a result of the connection between FB and alums. When was the last time that BB & MSOC were on national or regional television? TU FB provides marketing opportunities that BB and MSOC can't touch. These are elements that that TU and many other FCS schools value highly, despite the fact that FB expenses tend to be higher than revenues. If FB didn't provide added benefits, most current FCS schools wouldn't sponsor the sport.

Baseball & soccer aren't "cheap", when you consider the costs to house, feed and educate the athletes and all of the associated travel, equipment, facility maintenance, insurance and other costs. Aside from the athletes participating, those sports garner little support on and off campus and provide almost no merchandising or marketing benefits for the school. What benefit does the school derive from sponsoring these sports as compared with offering them at the club level?

To illustrate my point, it's not insignificant that we're having this discussion on a FB M/B instead of on a BB or MSOC M/B... if they even exist.

Great points. It is more then just the hard $$$ that come into and are spent on programs for sure. ESPN doesn't spend a lot of time one any sports outside of football and basketball. Although, they do spend more time on baseball now but it can be hard to find still. I think the bottom line is if TU wanted to keep these sports they would have. Ultimately, there was enough distaste at the top to remove to pretty standard sports IMO. Maybe they are in the wrong conference for their non-football sports? Maybe this will be more prevelant as we continue to see conference realignment being caused by schools chasing football & bball $$$. There will be a day when the non-football schools will surpass those that have football, especially as enrollment in youth football programs decline due to safety concerns and kids turn to other sports, such as soccer. But maybe I am wrong about that...

In the end I know and understand TU needs to make the best decisions for themselves...but if I were an alum I would be pretty unhappy with cutting those to programs in particular.

[henfan]

I think the bottom line is if TU wanted to keep these sports they would have... In the end I know and understand TU needs to make the best decisions for themselves...but if I were an alum I would be pretty unhappy with cutting those to programs in particular.

Of course TU could have kept both programs if they wanted to but at what expense? It was likely a very difficult decision for them to axe both sports and no question they did it with clear headed, thorough evaluation.

Why would the alums be unhappy? They have no one else to blame but themselves for not supporting baseball and men's soccer. If they attended games in large numbers and contributed to those programs, it would have been difficult and maybe even impossible for TU to pull the plug.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of course TU could have kept both programs if they wanted to but at what expense?

This is the whole problem with your statement. Unless you're in the BCS, sports are an expense. Basketball is an expense. Football is an expense. Soccer is an expense. Baseball is an expense. Is Towson's athletic departments' mission to be a business to return money on investment, or is it an educational mission to provide TU students with the opportunity to compete intercollegiately against the best?

Alums are unhappy because there are a lot of alums who saw as their undergraduate experience their time on an intercollegiate team as something that is educationally worthwhile. They see it as removing a good experience - and, more importantly, a valuable education - for students. The athletic department sees this as a business. Things aren't making money, so they're shut down.

The biggest problem with intercollegiate sports today, IMO, is that it needs to be a money-making enterprise. Notably, this was the mindset of John Silber, BU's famous president who waged a twenty-year war against BU football. He said that football doesn't make money for the university, so we shouldn't have it. After twenty years of badmouthing, starving and neglecting the program, he finally got his wish.

That unfortunate mindset has warped minds on both sides of the debate. The BCS schools say, "our athletics departments make money, so let's maximize that investment". Some Division I schools say, "program X doesn't 'make money', so let's take a loss on that investment and pump money into other things."

[henfan]

Is Towson's athletic departments' mission to be a business to return money on investment, or is it an educational mission to provide TU students with the opportunity to compete intercollegiately against the best?

This isn't an AD decision; it's an institutional decision. As if it needs to be said, TU's primary mission is to educate students. Athletics, intercollegiate and otherwise, are an added bonus of campus life. Sponsoring X sport at the NCAA level is an institutional decision that has to be balanced among many other priorities. Of course it's about money. Many universities at our level aren't endless pits of money devoid of educational & financial priorities.

Yes, it is important for schools to offer students opportunities to compete in athletics, not only for physical fitness but also for the educational benefits you mentioned. However, institutions are under no obligation to sponsor programs at the NCAA level that they believe provide little value to their community. It's pretty arrogant to assume that we fans (and outsiders at that) have a clue what's best for TU or any other school.

As for the alums who might be unhappy about TU dropping those sports, what did they do to keep these program financially sound and vital?

[GannonFan]

This isn't an AD decision; it's an institutional decision. As if it needs to be said, TU's primary mission is to educate students. Athletics, intercollegiate and otherwise, are an added bonus of campus life. Sponsoring X sport at the NCAA level is an institutional decision that has to be balanced among many other priorities. Of course it's about money. Many universities at our level aren't endless pits of money devoid of educational & financial priorities.

Yes, it is important for schools to offer students opportunities to compete in athletics, not only for physical fitness but also for the educational benefits you mentioned. However, institutions are under no obligation to sponsor programs at the NCAA level that they believe provide little value to their community. It's pretty arrogant to assume that we fans (and outsiders at that) have a clue what's best for TU or any other school.

As for the alums who might be unhappy about TU dropping those sports, what did they do to keep these program financially sound and vital?

It does beg the question why so many schools offer sports and scholarships at all for the many sports that receive little or no attention on campus by the students at that school. UD for instance, is a school with 20k in enrollment, and almost none of them ever venture down to the athletic fields to watch NCAA baseball (or soccer, or field hockey, or softball, or etc). They watch football and basketball, but that's about it. Why does a school, then, feel compelled to spend the money they do on something that only benefits the maybe 0.1% of the student body that participates in that sport? Especially when statistically, a much larger percentage of the students will and do participate in numerous intramural sports that just aren't NCAA sponsored or sanctioned. Other than self interest of the athletes and families involved, what has made NCAA sanctioning and sports scholarships for those sports sanctioned such an important deal, especially considering very few people watch and are entertained by these sports? Club hockey at UD attracts far more fans than most of the scholarship sports combined - why wouldn't club sports be the way to go for most schools?

[henfan]

Club hockey at UD attracts far more fans than most of the scholarship sports combined - why wouldn't club sports be the way to go for most schools?

Increasingly, this is becoming obvious to schools not flush with big time FB or MBB programs.

Of course there are minimum AD requirements for the number of sports and scholarships that must be offered to maintain D-I MBB & FB programs, as well as Title IX equivalancies.

[etiger]

I wanted to chime in here. First of all, I want it to be known that I do not like this decision, but I understand it. I support AD Mike Waddell 100%. He has turned the TU Athletic Department into winners. I also support the President. She did what needed to be done.

Cutting sports is tough and emotional for all involved, especially those athletes in Baseball and Mens Soccer.

Lets take a look at what brought this situation to a head.

20 years of losing. Mens Basketball has not had a winning record in over a decade. Football had a few good years (1992-94) then a few years of winning in the Patriot league, and until the last two years, only 1 winning record in the A10/CAA. This is due to the teams not being funded fully. Football has been at a disadvantage until just recently. During the years in the Patriot league, we were hindered due to lack of resources. Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross, were able to spend way more money than TU on recruiting, coaches salaries, travel, etc. We were playing with half a deck. Gordy Combs did one hell of a job winning as much as he did with only half the resources of others we were competing against. But as you see, resources are the key. Other schools had them, and we did not.

Due to this non winning, no one was giving to the programs. The Tiger Club membership has been abismal until the last few years.
So now that I have said this, lets look at the details.
1) The TU Athletic budget is not competitive with our pier schools, UDel and JMU. We are lagging far behind them. Based on FY2011 funding, Towson Athletics was 10th out of the 12 CAA institutions in overall per student investment, and last among football playing members.
For TU to be competitive, we need to:
- Invest in scholarships across all sports (dont have sports that are only partialy funded)
- Provide competitive salaries for critical coaches and staff
- Increase recruiting budgets to bring the best prospective student-athletes to TU
- Enhance sports performance support (sports medicine, strength & conditioning)
- Invest in facilities
- Enhance the travel per diem to provide healthy meals for all athletes and enhancing meal plans for athletes on campus to a minimum of 3 meals per day

2) Title 9 compliance.
Towson did not have any complaints aginst the university, but TU this would not be the case becaue we cannot add more womens sports.
A university can achieve Title IX compliance in one of three ways: a) Prong 1 is a method of satisfying compliance standards by achieving proportionality between the percentage of women enrolled at the institution and the percentage of women participating in the University’s Intercollegiate Athletic Program; b) Prong 2 satisfies compliance standards by demonstrating a history of continuing the practice of adding women’s sports to increase the player participation levels; and, c) Prong 3 achieves compliance by demonstrating that the institution is meeting the interests and abilities of women (usually through survey methods).
TU has relied upon "Prong 2" adding women sports team every five years until substantial proportionality is achieved. This approach has become to expensive to continue. (see our $18M budget)
For TU to meet the population %, TU Athletics needs to be 61% femal to 39% male. This is the Student body population. Out sports were only at 52% female 48% male. So the only way to make this happen without adding more women's sports is to drop mens sports so the percentages meet.

To increase the budget so we did not have to cut sports, TU would have to:
1) Raise the Student Fees. The student Fees are very high already, in fact, the student fees at TU are the second highest in the state. So this was a non starter from the Presidents view.
2) Raise Ticket revenues - This is happening, but not at the pace needed. We need to keep winning to make this happen. People will be more willing to buy tickets to a winner. Football has started this by winning the last two years - Back to Back CAA Champions.
3) Raise Private Donation/Sponsorships - well, until you win on consistently, this is difficult. TU has done this, but not at the pace needed. Winning in Football and Mens Basketball will help with this, but we have only just started this. Football has had a great 2 years, and Mens Basketball just set a NCAA record for biggest turnaround. But we need to keep winning. To keep winning, we need the resources. So you see, this is a catch 22.
This is a two fold solution. Title 9 is satisfied and more resources will be available for the remaining teams.

[PAllen]

I wanted to chime in here. First of all, I want it to be known that I do not like this decision, but I understand it. I support AD Mike Waddell 100%. He has turned the TU Athletic Department into winners. I also support the President. She did what needed to be done.

Cutting sports is tough and emotional for all involved, especially those athletes in Baseball and Mens Soccer.

Lets take a look at what brought this situation to a head.

....

What brought this about is simple. They went way overboard on the stadium upgrade in the hopes that the state or alumni/community donations would pick up the difference. Neither did. Then they built a new arena with no real plan on how to pay for it, again hoping that the state or donors, or this time increased ticket fees, would pick up the entire bill. That didn't happen either. So you had a school that was still working through the debt of the stadium rebuild (it's not an expansion if you completely demolish the old one first) that goes out and takes on a ton of additional debt to build a new arena without figuring out how to pay for either.

The administration has backed off the Title IX claim as it has been shown to be false. The real problem (which they openly state) is budgetary. They have to figure out how to help pay off the debt through the athletics budget like they said they would when the bonds were OK'ed. While I'm glad that some of the TU community are still happy with their President and AD, just remember that this financial issue was largely of their own making.

[ccd494]

To illustrate my point, it's not insignificant that we're having this discussion on a FB M/B instead of on a BB or MSOC M/B... if they even exist.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/forums/college-amateur-soccer.43/

More of a soccer board than a college board for sure. But they exist.