Canadian schools in the NCAA (and FCS) [Archive]

bunny

July 30th, 2006, 08:06 PM

UBC seems more like U Washington to me than U Montana.

The UBC (http://www.ubc.edu) campus is big and beautiful, and it's right on the water. Size-wise and location-wise they're closer to UW. I doubt that UBC is ready to be competative in football at the I-AA level, though.

The article mentions ice hockey and basketball. The basketball team has games against Arizona, Fresno State, and other US teams scheduled for the upcoming season. The ice hockey team would probably be more of a money maker than football for them - that sport is much more popular in BC. However, there aren't too many college hockey teams close to them, so their travel costs would increase if they joined the NCAA.

If the NCAA allowed Canadian schools would those schools have to compete in NCAA divisions in all sports, or would they be allowed to play CIS for some?

The debate about scholarships is pretty intriguing. I didn't realize that a) Canadian schools couldn't pay for room & board for athletes (can they do so for academic schollies?) and that b) there is a "brawn drain" because so many athletes come to the US to play for those benefits.

They have a great ultimate frisbee program at UBC (http://www.ubcultimate.ca/index.php), by the way.

Thunderbirds (http://www.gothunderbirds.ca/index.asp)
wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UBC_Thunderbirds)

Jafus (Thinker)

July 30th, 2006, 09:45 PM

Intriguing!!

Jafus (Thinker)

July 30th, 2006, 09:52 PM

Intriguing!!!

GeauxColonels

July 30th, 2006, 09:57 PM

It could be interesting. It could possibly mean a complete change in the make-up of conferences in the NCAA.

Mike Johnson

July 31st, 2006, 01:28 AM

Some of the UND fans think that UBC getting into the Big Sky would help UND get in.

UBC seems more like U Washington to me than U Montana.

UBC is indeed more like UW, although their football teams would probably have to be a cellar dweller in the PAC Ten for a while, if they were admitted.

I can see the University of Saskatchewan fitting in well in the Big Sky and they have a history of winning CIS championships.

Of course, the University of Calgary was smoked in football at Carroll College a year or two ago. It wasn't a pretty sight for the Dinos and a friend of mine--a graduate of the University of Alberta--sent me an email moaning about that. He said that he loves to see Calgary humiliated, but felt like they let his whole province down. Of course, they played US rules and the team had a full schedule with Canadian rules.

Right now in the CIS big and small universities compete (although not in all sports). I could see for example:

British Columbia and Simon Fraser going PAC Ten (I doubt they would settle for anything less if they could, because of their academic similarity to the PAC Ten schools, but in football at least, it would be some time before they could compete). Victoria could go Big Sky or Great Northwest (Victoria and Western Washington could easily be major rivals across the bay from each other). Alberta and Calgary could go Mountain West or WAC (again sizewise and by academics, they would be more comfortable there). Lethbridge could go Big Sky along with Saskatchewan and Regina, although Lethbridge might be a better fit in the GNAC. Manitoba and Brandon could join the former NCC schools, or perhaps could be the salvation of what remains of the NCC.

I've presented a paper at Dalhousie University in Halifax several years ago and think they would want to go with a New England conference including Maine, New Hampshire, etc.

Toronto would probably try to get into the Big Ten and there are a slew of Ontario Universities that could fit in with MAC and midwestern IAA and II conferences.

Of course, what they might want and what conferences would accept them could be a different thing.

I do note, that at least some of the Canadian universities have recently adapted their academic programs to match US universities and moved away from British type programs. For example, graduates of several Canadian universities now graduate with a 4.0 grade point system as opposed to passing a graduate exam and having a rank based entirely how that exam. This was done to better integrate the "North American" higher education system and make it less confusing for students to cross that border. Athletics seems to be only another manifestation of this integration in higher education.

*****

July 31st, 2006, 01:37 AM

dream baby dream!

downbythebeach

July 31st, 2006, 04:01 AM

I must admit I am a huge CIS fan, but dont think many of the CIS teams would want to play D1....with only Laval having a chance to play DI-A football (right now they wouldn't make the I-AA playoffs, but there are prob many I-A that couldn't). A few years ago Simon Fraser of the CW tried to join NCAA D2 but was shut down.
U of Toronto has about 60,000 students, and so does York U, but they each are falling on very tough times and average about 1,000 fans per home game........yeah its so bad neither could beat St. Peters. I like CIS football but right now they can't even compare to I-AA, but maybe if they were part of the NCAA they could recruit more players from the U.S.

some decent fits would be
Arcadia, Ottawa - NEC (a smaller eastern school, and a SBU replacement)
St. Francis X - Patriot (best primarily undergrad school in Canada)
Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, UBC, Calgary - Big Sky or Great West (their is some support for football, but they would have to step up)
WLU, Western O, McMaster - Gateway (they are similar sizes, but dont have the same commitment to sports...I'm not sure if any of these schools give scholarships right now)
Montreal - CAA (football is becoming more popular in Quebec and they would move from the CIS' best conference to I-AA likely strongest)

Dane96

July 31st, 2006, 08:12 AM

Ummmm...let me say this pretty clear: NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

There are t0o many differences within academic and athletic structures of both nations for one thing (yes, I am familiar with the overhaul by some schools in Canada, I lived in Montreal for quite some time).

The biggest hurdle, however, would be talent. Sure, Canadian schools lose talent to the US, however the numbers, on a whole, are quite small. Sure, kids from the US head off to fine academic schools (McGill, Ryerson, Queens, UTO, etc). However, you wont see kids from the US clamoring to go up North for an education. Outside of a few well known schools, Canadian schools are NOT going to help these kids beat out their peers back in the US for jobs.

Based on that fact alone, plus the distance from home for many students who, you could argue, are "moving" to a marginal oppty to play up North, you would see the CIS schools get stomped...regularly.

Sure, you could put together an "all-star" team of Canadian athletes who could play against a top I-AA (maybe even IA) team, but other than that....you wont develop enough athletes.

Maybe I am wrong...but I think this would take a qtr of a century, if not more, to work out. You are talking about changing tradition, en masse, in both Canada and the US.

AppGuy04

July 31st, 2006, 08:15 AM

Never happen, different rules, field, etc

dbackjon

July 31st, 2006, 09:38 AM

I wouldn't say never happen, but it will be a while - especially if the schools wanted to play football. NAU gets another of athletes in most sports from Canada - the full scholarship (including room and board) is very attractive.

Back in the mid 80's, NAU couldn't find an 11th game - we ended up playing U of Manitoba for a home game (exhibition). The first half was played with Canadian rules (except the endzone/field differences), and the second with NCAA rules. NAU won pretty big.

Lehigh Football Nation

July 31st, 2006, 09:54 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Canadian schools offer free state-sponsored education to their citizens like in Europe?

In sports like football where the talent pool isn't as large as the US, this wouldn't be as a big deal (short-term), but in sports like baskeet-bowl where a couple great players can make a marginal team into a powerhouse, it could seriously unbalance the playing field in the long-run. Never mind what it would do to the Frozen Four.

I don't think the models could really be brought together in any meaningful way.

colgate13

July 31st, 2006, 09:59 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Canadian schools offer free state-sponsored education to their citizens like in Europe?

No, they don't. They're just much cheaper than U.S. schools. On par with some of our cheaper state institutions.

The Canadians even have a guaranteed student loan program like Stafford! :cool:

89Hen

July 31st, 2006, 10:18 AM

I don't like it. Pro sports is one thing, but college... too many logistical problems IMO.

colgate13

July 31st, 2006, 10:21 AM

I don't like it. Pro sports is one thing, but college... too many logistical problems IMO.
Generally agree... but I'm mulling it over for ice hockey. It could potentially help it, but it may also hurt it since we get plenty of their talent to come down... I just don't know! (mark that down folks, 13 doesn't admit that often! xlolx )

RabidRabbit

July 31st, 2006, 10:29 AM

Canadians usually feel that they are overrun by the Americans. CIS being absorbed into the NCAA would remove (effectively) any Canadian option. Those northern states team's would distinctly benefit from developing an "bi-national" conference. NCC collaboration with prairie provinces school makes a lot of sense, as an example.

Lot's of issues to figure out. :nonono2: :nonono2: Beyond this simple mind to address.:bang:

Ivytalk

July 31st, 2006, 10:29 AM

It won't happen in football, although Harvard played McGill WAY back when. Given the budget shortfalls up there, even at the good Canadian schools, it would take them a long time to reach parity with most D-III conferences.

Hansel

July 31st, 2006, 10:30 AM

Generally agree... but I'm mulling it over for ice hockey. It could potentially help it, but it may also hurt it since we get plenty of their talent to come down... I just don't know! (mark that down folks, 13 doesn't admit that often! xlolx )
could be good for hockey- they greatly expand the number of teams and maybe go to a 32 team tourney-

colgate13

July 31st, 2006, 10:55 AM

could be good for hockey- they greatly expand the number of teams and maybe go to a 32 team tourney-
I agree... as long as that future Hobey Baker finalist from Strathoy, Ontario still wants that Colgate education! :p

Killtoppers90

July 31st, 2006, 11:35 AM

Will their league be sponsored by Tim Horton's? And what are the rules on starting Moose on the O-Line, eh?

MplsBison

July 31st, 2006, 11:41 AM

Wow, I had no idea so many people were scared of the Candian schools getting into the NCAA.

OrneryAggie

July 31st, 2006, 11:50 AM

I'd love to see UBC join the NCAA. I've seen their rugby team work over UCD a couple times and they're probably Cal's only real competition in north america. Admission to the PAC10 would give them instant credibility and they probably would become the canadian all star collegiate football team. Their rugby team is already filled with national team players. UBC's not much farther north than UW and the huskies don't have any problem recruiting tons of kids from cali and hawaii. Don't know much about the other canadian schools but Manitoba would probably be a good fit for the GWFC considering the South Manitoba St Bison and South-South Manitoba St Jackrabbits are already members.

Pard4Life

July 31st, 2006, 12:25 PM

I don't know... I don't see many universities in the US wanting to travel for games in Canada. Canadian teams would likely play each other most of the time and play US teams in the playoffs... I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.

Plus, isnt' there a seasonal issue here? Are most of the Canadian college fields domed? It would be brutal to play a playoff game for IAA in Ontario or Saskatchewan.. even Nova Scotia. We joke about Colgate being Siberia... well... Canada is Siberia.. only in the Western Hemisphere..

..and then I would have no more Colage=Siberia jokes for 13.. :rotateh:

Canadian teams in IAA would be intriguing, but realistically, likely not a good idea. I can just see Lafayette playing at Victoria in an IAA semifinal... there goes McC's operating budget and any minimal profit...

..heck why not just add Alaska-Anchorage to IAA...

gophoenix

July 31st, 2006, 12:54 PM

Canadian schools have been in the NCAA before....

GeauxColonels

July 31st, 2006, 01:39 PM

Canadian schools have been in the NCAA before....
Such as? :eyebrow:

henfan

July 31st, 2006, 01:45 PM

Such as? :eyebrow:

Just waiting for someone from JMU, UR or W&M to joking offer the name UMaine-Orono.:nod:

RabidRabbit

July 31st, 2006, 03:37 PM

gophoenix

July 31st, 2006, 03:39 PM

There were a handful of BC schools that played DIII bacl in the early 90s before leaving. Canada doesn't allow "sport scholarships" to be given out, but that is a provincial law, not national. Just like they don't allow private schools in some provinces, though Quebec and BC both do allow it.

I can't remember the names of the schools, but they were only NCAA for a a handful of seasons.

I know schools like McGill and a handful in Ontario play FB by US rules. So changes wouldn't be that detrimental. It's whether or not they allow scholarships that will ultimately decide their fate.

turfdoc

July 31st, 2006, 04:30 PM

I know schools like McGill and a handful in Ontario play FB by US rules. So changes wouldn't be that detrimental. It's whether or not they allow scholarships that will ultimately decide their fate.

I wish I could quote multiple posters in one but heck this works.

first off McGill competes for the Vanier Cup which is played under canadian rules. Every game I have seen from the Quebec Conferences have also been with Canadian rules. I know of no Ontario teams that play under with the U.S. rules.

The Canadian system of higher education and athletics is not even close to a move like this. The Quebec schools that are successful actually are run like professional clubs. In fact there is even a feeling of "ownership", by the people in charge of these teams. The Ontario schools such as UT may have 60,000 students but most are hilariously behind the U.S. in Football, I would put the level of play at OUA at Division III, and last year a OUA school won the Vanier Cup. Slap in the face of many of the more "professionally" minded Quebec schools.

There is also an issue around the club football teams in Canada just as with the Juniors in Hockey in potential NCAA violations.

I can see this move happening in sports other than football but football is entirely too far away.

Just look at the rule changes....12 men on a side, only 3 downs, 20 yard endzone, no downed punts, no touch back, 1 point for kicking it through the endzone, and the biggest difference that no one even knows about (although it is the biggest difference in my mind) = a one yard neutral zone between the line of scrimmage and the defensive line. That last one is a doozy and annoying to watch.

Maybe a couple of truly forward looking universities in the west may do it but I just cannot even fathom it in Ontario or Quebec.

Just my two cents, from the great white north

MplsBison

July 31st, 2006, 04:34 PM

Thanks for the post, doc.

Perhaps this move is, in fact, more for hockey and basketball.

That would be fine with me too.

Sly Fox

July 31st, 2006, 05:59 PM

Since the subject was raised with Canada, what about a school in Mexico like Monterrey Tech? They are large enough and strong enough academically to pull it off. And they have a rather lengthy history of club football.

Just throwing it out there. Obviously the number of attractive options south of the border are VERY limited. But this Canadian discussion does bring up the idea.

GaSouthern

July 31st, 2006, 06:50 PM

CIS has...
Women's Rugby
Women's Wrestling

Could you please give me the specs on these competition along with high detail pictures of uniforms and or lack there of :D :smiley_wi :hurray:

:rotateh:

lambertjr

July 31st, 2006, 07:08 PM

So when a team from the U.S. plays up in Canada will we be playing Canadian rules and vice versa?

GeauxColonels

August 1st, 2006, 10:04 AM

So when a team from the U.S. plays up in Canada will we be playing Canadian rules and vice versa?
I would think that IF a Candian school was admitted to the NCAA in any division, then the sports that participate in the NCAA will be subject to NCAA/American rules and regulations. Therefore, the schools would need to make adjustments to their facilities to accomodate the American rules. :twocents:

bluehenbillk

August 1st, 2006, 10:29 AM

I don't see a problem, we already have Maine & they're basically Canadians.

mainejeff

August 1st, 2006, 01:34 PM

I don't see a problem, we already have Maine & they're basically Canadians.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Would be nice to be part of a country that isn't a bunch of warhawks and has affordable healthcare...........but we'll have to continue this conversation over on the political board ;).

gophoenix

August 1st, 2006, 02:21 PM

I love canada to visit (as I'm there almost weekly), I can name any number of things wrong with it. The fact that they gace homeless beggars "pay" because "their" street corner was being used to film a movie for a week 3 years ago is just a prime example.

And sure, the health care is affordable.... just sit there all day and they might get to you......

:smiley_wi

Turfdoc, are you sure that McGill ddidn't play by US rules. in 2000 when I saw them play a game against.... queens I think, it definately wasn't canadians rules. Maybe austrailian rules?!? ::p

mainejeff

August 1st, 2006, 04:25 PM

And sure, the health care is affordable.... just sit there all day and they might get to you......

Isn't that what we do here in the U.S. :confused: :confused: :confused: ......except we pay 10X as much for the "wait".

Now back to football ;).

GeauxColonels

August 1st, 2006, 04:48 PM

You say that like it's a bad thing. Would be nice to be part of a country that isn't a bunch of warhawks and has affordable healthcare...........but we'll have to continue this conversation over on the political board ;).
Eh, you can move. It can't be that far away.:twocents:

turfdoc

August 1st, 2006, 05:43 PM

And sure, the health care is affordable.... just sit there all day and they might get to you......

:smiley_wi

Turfdoc, are you sure that McGill ddidn't play by US rules. in 2000 when I saw them play a game against.... queens I think, it definately wasn't canadians rules. Maybe austrailian rules?!? ::p

Here here on the healthcare thing but that is for another board.

In a nutshell I am almost certain that Queens was not playing anything other than Canadian rules. I know that occassionally teams play "scrimmages" against U.S. teams and maybe you saw a "Scrimmage" between those two as they were preparing for that. As far as McGill goes as they are quite bit away from me I have only seen them on TV once (getting trounced by Laval) and they were playing CIS rules. I have seen every OAU team play, including Queens and they all play by CIS rules.

That one yard gap is the most significant difference in the rules, but maybe that is just an old lineman talking.

gophoenix

August 4th, 2006, 01:51 PM

Do they still disallow sports scholarships on most Canadian provinces?

mainejeff

August 4th, 2006, 04:11 PM

Eh, you can move. It can't be that far away.:twocents:

Yawn. xcoffeex

roberb7

August 7th, 2006, 12:11 AM

Some of the UND fans think that UBC getting into the Big Sky would help UND get in.

UBC seems more like U Washington to me than U Montana.

The Pac-10 isn't looking for new members. If they were, they would be lookng at Fresno State and San Diego State.

And it will be a long time before UBC could be meet D-1A football requirements. D-1AA is achievable, and the Thunderbirds could have rivalries with Eastern Washington, Portland State and Montana.

My opinion is that the best affiliation for UBC would be the WCC, which would open the possibility of competing in D-II in football, and D-I in everything else. The D-II schools in the Pacific Northwest (Western Washington, Central Washington, and Western Oregon) have been having trouble finding opponents. However, I think the Big Sky is a more likely outcome.

I maintain the UBC Thunderbird Baseball Fan Page, and I wrote an opinion piece on this subject a couple of years ago. It's at http://tbirdbaseball.net/content/view/36/51/, and most of the information in it is still relevant.

RabidRabbit

August 7th, 2006, 08:52 AM

The Pac-10 isn't looking for new members. If they were, they would be lookng at Fresno State and San Diego State.

And it will be a long time before UBC could be meet D-1A football requirements. D-1AA is achievable, and the Thunderbirds could have rivalries with Eastern Washington, Portland State and Montana.

My opinion is that the best affiliation for UBC would be the WCC, which would open the possibility of competing in D-II in football, and D-I in everything else. The D-II schools in the Pacific Northwest (Western Washington, Central Washington, and Western Oregon) have been having trouble finding opponents. However, I think the Big Sky is a more likely outcome.

I maintain the UBC Thunderbird Baseball Fan Page, and I wrote an opinion piece on this subject a couple of years ago. It's at http://tbirdbaseball.net/content/view/36/51/, and most of the information in it is still relevant.

Other options, especially football, would be the Great West Football Conference. More spread out than Big Sky, but very well matched in quality. That could potentially lead to a tie into the Big West Conference for all sports but hockey. And even there, North Dakota U is likely to be a Great West member in the not distant future.

roberb7

August 7th, 2006, 11:50 AM

Other options, especially football, would be the Great West Football Conference. More spread out than Big Sky, but very well matched in quality. That could potentially lead to a tie into the Big West Conference for all sports but hockey. And even there, North Dakota U is likely to be a Great West member in the not distant future.

I think the Great West creates more problems then it solves. It's football-only, and being in a conference with Portland State and Eastern Washington makes a lot more sense than Cal Poly, Southern Utah, etc.

The Big West is an interesting idea, however. UBC has played several of these schools in basketball and baseball during the last 2-3 years. (Beat Northridge in both sports, good baseball game vs. UCSB.) And unlike the Big Sky, the Big West has baseball. (Yeah, Fullerton vs. UBC at Nat Bailey Stadium in Vancouver; that would be cool.) Would the Big Sky take a football-only member? I doubt that the D-II North Central Conference would have a problem with it, because they have football-only members already.

lew

August 7th, 2006, 02:37 PM

How does UBC fit into the WCC, which is a group of small private schools with the largest having an enrollment of about 8,000. Also, what about the trouble with hockey. The NCAA deems payers who have played Canadian Major Junior hockey (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) as professionals so they are ineligible for the NCAA while the Canadian colleges welcome such players with open arms.

Frosty The Snowbuff

August 7th, 2006, 05:11 PM

Will they serve BEER?xprost2x

You want keg, can, or frozen??

roberb7

August 7th, 2006, 05:29 PM

How does UBC fit into the WCC, which is a group of small private schools with the largest having an enrollment of about 8,000.

Nearby opponents in U. of Portland and Gonzaga.

Also, what about the trouble with hockey. The NCAA deems payers who have played Canadian Major Junior hockey (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) as professionals so they are ineligible for the NCAA while the Canadian colleges welcome such players with open arms.

It's a definite problem, and is addressed in my writeup at http://tbirdbaseball.net/content/view/36/51/

The fundamental problem is, UBC is getting a big new building for ice hockey (it's being built for the 2010 Olympics), and they have to figure out a way to fill it. Would more people show up if they were playing Alaska-Anchorage and North Dakota instead of U. of Sasksatchewan and U. of Alberta? Maybe. Enough to pay the cost of the scholarships that they would have to hand out to be competitive in D-I? And pay the higher travel costs? I doubt it.

On the other hand, UBC wants to get their membership application approved. It would certainly help if they had the support of AD's at North Dakota, Alaska-Anchorage, Alaska-Fairbanks, etc. and these AD's would certainly like to add an ice hockey opponent to their schedule that's less than 2,000 miles away.

lew

August 8th, 2006, 03:01 PM

Nice writeup about the situation. One problem I can see about the basketball is that playing Trinity Western, SFU and Victoria as non-conference opponents would KILL UBC's RPI ratings as those games are thrown out for those calculations. Speaking of baseball, I never understood why the NCAA wouldn't count games against UBC as official games. UBC is sanctioned by the NAIA, which is located in the United States, yet the NCAA still considers UBC to be a "foreign" school, so, for example, from the University of Washington's standpoint, the game is an "exhibition."

One other suggestion, is there any chance of getting one of the other B.C. schools to join as a "travel partner" (Maybe SFU or UVic).

roberb7

August 8th, 2006, 03:24 PM

Speaking of baseball, I never understood why the NCAA wouldn't count games against UBC as official games. UBC is sanctioned by the NAIA, which is located in the United States, yet the NCAA still considers UBC to be a "foreign" school, so, for example, from the University of Washington's standpoint, the game is an "exhibition."

The NCAA is OK with counting the games, as long as the game is played by NCAA rules. (No "courtesy runner", etc.) It has usually been the opponent's choice to classify the game as an exhibition, for a couple of good reasons. For example, the game doesn't count in the 55-game limit.

One other suggestion, is there any chance of getting one of the other B.C. schools to join as a "travel partner" (Maybe SFU or UVic).

If the bylaw change happens in October, SFU would probably make a move of some sort. They applied for NCAA membership a few years ago. However, their application didn't look very good. They wanted to continue playing schools like Western Washington and Pacific Lutheran, who used to be NAIA opponents, and are now D-II and D-III. The Northwest Conference, which is the D-III conference in this area, has a "private schools only" policy. Ultimately, SFU wasn't bringing any money to the table. UBC's approach is different; it's D-I all the way.

roberb7

August 25th, 2006, 07:19 PM

From CBC Sports: UBC awaits word on move to NCAA (http://www.cbc.ca/story/sports/national/2006/08/24/ncaa-thunderbirds.html). A RealVideo clip is included; see "related" in the right-hand column.

The basketball player in the picture is Karlo Villanueva. He was listed in the roster as 5' 4", but I swear he was under 5'. When I watched UBC play against D-I teams, I was afraid that one of the opposing players would step on him.

From The Province (newspaper): UBC tantalizingly close to NCAA nod (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/columnists/story.html?id=6d0b283e-68f6-4eaf-b1d7-2e3e3463d1a4)

JohnStOnge

August 25th, 2006, 07:36 PM

Don't know if somebody already said this but Candian institutions are not subject to US law. Not subject to Title IX, for instance. Something to think about.

blukeys

August 25th, 2006, 10:43 PM

Don't know if somebody already said this but Candian institutions are not subject to US law. Not subject to Title IX, for instance. Something to think about.

Yes talk about opening the ULTIMATE can of worms. I can see a scenario where Canadian teams are initially welcomed until they start beating U.S. Teams and then these issues will come to a head.

I'm surprised the politically correct Canadians have not already come up with their version of Title IX. Perhaps there is hope for Canada Yet!!:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

roberb7

August 26th, 2006, 01:53 AM

Don't know if somebody already said this but Candian institutions are not subject to US law. Not subject to Title IX, for instance. Something to think about.

I've thought about it already. Canadian schools could easily agree to abide by Title IX without being required to do so by law. As long as the playing field stays level...

I AM wondering about investigations of recruiting violations, alumni handing cash to players, etc. Would it be more difficult to take depositions, issue subpoenas, etc.?

There's also the (remote) possibility of NCAA regulations contradicting labour laws, for example, the prohibition on holding part-time jobs. However, this has been an issue within the US as well.

dbackjon

August 26th, 2006, 10:17 AM

Don't know if somebody already said this but Candian institutions are not subject to US law. Not subject to Title IX, for instance. Something to think about.

But the NCAA can make bylaws that non-American members would have to follow - such as following Title IX guidelines (no legal ramifications, obviously, but NCAA membership ramifications).

TexasTerror

August 26th, 2006, 11:22 AM

I'm very interested to see what happens with Canadian universities moving into the NCAA...

I am all for it if they are willing to follow the membership guidelines set forth by the NCAA (especially Title IX) in order to make things as fair as can be...

This would also really alter the landscape of conferences with some of the schools that could come in, starting another domino effect that would reach even more conferences...

roberb7

September 16th, 2006, 11:46 PM

The Thunderbirds lost to the University of Alberta 18-17, and UBC hasn't won in Edmonton since 2001. The Thunderbirds scored their only touchdown of the game with three minutes left to tie the game at 17. However, the Golden Bears kicked a single (they call it a "rouge" in the box score) with no time on the clock to win it. It was Alberta's only point of the second half.

My personal opinion is, the rule that allows you to collect a single point when you kick the ball into the end zone and the other team doesn't run it out, is pretty cool. However, I suspect that if you asked UBC's players and coaches how they felt about it on this given Saturday, they would be for getting away from it.

ASU Kep

September 17th, 2006, 06:04 AM

I'd love to see this happen. The article said something was supposed to be announced by the end of summer?

star2city

September 17th, 2006, 09:05 PM

I'd love to see this happen. The article said something was supposed to be announced by the end of summer?

That previous article appears to be inaccurate:

http://www.vancourier.com/issues06/093206/sports.html

NCAA would have to amend its bylaws to accept UBC or other non-American institutions. A working group has been studying the issue since May, said NCAA spokesman Bob Williams from head office in Indianapolis.

"If there is a thought out there that this will be like next week or the next couple of weeks I seriously doubt it will be that soon," Williams said.

nothingbutjsu

September 17th, 2006, 10:14 PM

I don't mind just as long as we don't have to speak French. (French bastards)

JALMOND

September 18th, 2006, 12:52 AM

Simon Frasier used to play in the NAIA. I don't know if they still do. Back in the late '70's Montana State would play non conference with them. I can remember back then they were the only Canadian school that played American football.

nothingbutjsu

September 18th, 2006, 07:12 AM

Yes, Simon Frasier is still a NAIA member but they do not play teams from the U.S. now

roberb7

September 18th, 2006, 12:08 PM

That previous article appears to be inaccurate:

http://www.vancourier.com/issues06/093206/sports.html

The Courier article doesn't mention a subject of curiosity. UBC (if my understanding is correct) has already turned in a membership application, without waiting for the result of the vote on the bylaw change in October. The strategy here was, they didn't want their application to be tied to the bylaw vote. This raises an obvious question; how could their application not be tied to the bylaw vote? Is there a plan B on this?

The problem with the possible bylaw change is DII and DIII. If you tell schools in Minnesota and Michigan that they might have to take long bus rides into Ontario and Manitoba in mid-January to play a basketball game, they aren't going to like it.

I think it would be entirely reasonable for the NCAA to say "DI only". Or "DII and DIII schools taken only under exceptional conditions." The justification would be, the CIS is basically the equivalent of DII, and there isn't any particular reason why the CIS and NCAA should be competing with each other at that level.

roberb7

October 31st, 2006, 11:53 AM

The Courier article doesn't mention a subject of curiosity. UBC (if my understanding is correct) has already turned in a membership application,

Turns out that my understanding was incorrect. The application won't be turned in until the alumni, faculty, student body, etc. get a say on it.

The problem with the possible bylaw change is DII and DIII. If you tell schools in Minnesota and Michigan that they might have to take long bus rides into Ontario and Manitoba in mid-January to play a basketball game, they aren't going to like it.

The "potential D-II or D-III school" that has been looking at the NCAA is Saint Clair College in Windsor, ON (directly across from Detroit). Their interest is competing only in NCAA ice hockey. The story is, the conference that they compete in discontinued ice hockey about four years ago. Since then, they have been competing in the Ontario Hockey Association Senior AAA Major League, and play some exhibition games against D-I and D-III teams.

UBC has a basketball game coming up at Stanford on Nov. 7.

BisonBacker

October 31st, 2006, 11:58 AM

Wow, I had no idea so many people were scared of the Candian schools getting into the NCAA.
Not scared its just a ridiculous idea. Can you say PIPE DREAM? xcoffeex

TexasTerror

November 11th, 2006, 12:12 PM

More development. This comes from the NCAA News...

International membership

The Working Group on Membership Eligibility for International Institutions, chaired by Belmont University President Robert Fisher, informed Executive Committee members that it has been discussing the possibility of establishing a pilot program for evaluating universities outside the United States and its territories for NCAA membership.

The Executive Committee authorized the working group to continue its deliberations and to formally propose criteria for evaluating international institutions at the committee’s January meeting.

The working group is suggesting that institutions expressing interest in NCAA membership be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, not only under current standards for membership eligibility, but also under criteria for evaluating the impact acceptance would have on current NCAA student-athletes and member institutions.

Among criteria relating to student-athletes are cultural impact (enhancement of the student-athlete experience and of cultural exposure and development), educational impact (creation of diverse educational opportunities), and student-athlete well-being (by increasing opportunities for regional competition based on geographic proximity).

As for impact on current NCAA member institutions, criteria might include the ability of an international institution to develop a conference alliance and strengthen competition within a conference.

The working group believes that most current interest in exploring NCAA membership involves Canadian institutions, but the group also believes that criteria must account for potential interest by institutions in other countries.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4g3NPUESYGYxqb6kW hCjhgihqYeCDFfj_zcVH1v_QD9gtzQ0IhyR0UAE3AuRw!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfMTVL?WCM_GLOBAL_CO NTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/NCAA/NCAA+News/NCAA+News+Online/2006/Association-wide/Panels+assigned+to+address+key+membership+concerns +-+11-6-06+NCAA+News

PantherRob82

November 11th, 2006, 12:19 PM

I can't imagine adding more teams.

TexasTerror

November 11th, 2006, 12:23 PM

I can't imagine adding more teams.

Do you realistically think there'd be more than a handful or two of Canadian teams that would make the move to the NCAA?

I think we've seen just as many, if not more Div II squads making the move in the last few years. Off the top of my head, the following schools have moved up or in the process of moving up: USD, UND, UCA, Presbyterian, WSSU, NCCU and SC-Upstate...

Adding more teams would definitely mean altering how things are done as it relates to tournament structure, etc across the sports spectrum or maybe not. The NCAA has grown a great deal. Since 1985, there have been over 100 new division I members and the NCAA has only added one more NCAA basketball tournament spot...we'll see how many more Div I members we get...

roberb7

November 18th, 2006, 02:17 PM

Do you realistically think there'd be more than a handful or two of Canadian teams that would make the move to the NCAA?

Correct. There's only four or five Canadians schools that have anything close to a D-I level budget. I'll name three of them: U. of Toronto, U. of British Columbia, and U. of Alberta.

However, it's important to note that the first two schools I listed are in large, and currently untapped, TV markets.

roberb7

January 10th, 2007, 02:26 PM

Here's the latest: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sports/story.html?id=572aa1e4-edfb-4397-8127-8881a6067143&k=87993

crunifan

January 10th, 2007, 03:53 PM

Good news! I would love to see Canadian schools in the NCAA.

It's about time we get football more popular up there!

MplsBison

January 10th, 2007, 04:22 PM

If they had a 60k football stadium and a 20k basketball arena on campus, they'd be exactly like U Washington and would probably be getting an invite to the PAC 10.

mtgrizfan4life

January 10th, 2007, 06:47 PM

My honest opinion is FCS as we know it now is the "proving" ground for possible 1A playoff or one "super" division for BCS conferences only. A second tier (similar to FCS), combining all non BCS conferences. I am thinking that is 5 to 10 years away. Wish it would not come to that, but BCS conferences are way too selfish, yet NCAA has to do something better accomodate everyone!

FCS was created to gradually test the market and gradually make changes that one day will be current FCS with Non BCS conferences.

Sorry if anyone else posted anything similar, just short on time to read through all the posts.

GoldandBlack

January 10th, 2007, 07:04 PM

If the NCAA approves it, I wonder if they'd change their name to the ICAA (International Collegiate Athletic Association).

Can't imagine them being that flexible.

Hammerhead

January 10th, 2007, 07:50 PM

I don't think North Dakota would like college hockey teams in Canada since that is a major recruiting area. Almost half of the Sioux roster is made up Canuks.

Nice writeup about the situation. One problem I can see about the basketball is that playing Trinity Western, SFU and Victoria as non-conference opponents would KILL UBC's RPI ratings as those games are thrown out for those calculations. Speaking of baseball, I never understood why the NCAA wouldn't count games against UBC as official games. UBC is sanctioned by the NAIA, which is located in the United States, yet the NCAA still considers UBC to be a "foreign" school, so, for example, from the University of Washington's standpoint, the game is an "exhibition."

One other suggestion, is there any chance of getting one of the other B.C. schools to join as a "travel partner" (Maybe SFU or UVic).

Hammerhead

January 10th, 2007, 07:52 PM

I don't think North Dakota would like the additional competition in recruiting. About half of the Sioux roster is made up of Canadians.

Nearby opponents in U. of Portland and Gonzaga.

It's a definite problem, and is addressed in my writeup at http://tbirdbaseball.net/content/view/36/51/

...

On the other hand, UBC wants to get their membership application approved. It would certainly help if they had the support of AD's at North Dakota, Alaska-Anchorage, Alaska-Fairbanks, etc. and these AD's would certainly like to add an ice hockey opponent to their schedule that's less than 2,000 miles away.

roberb7

January 10th, 2007, 10:58 PM

If the NCAA approves it, I wonder if they'd change their name to the ICAA (International Collegiate Athletic Association).

Nah. The National Hockey League never changed their name.

roberb7

January 10th, 2007, 11:09 PM

I don't think North Dakota would like the additional competition in recruiting. About half of the Sioux roster is made up of Canadians.

I just took a look at this roster. Most of them are from Manitoba or Ontario, with a couple from Saskatchewan, and a couple more from Alberta. Only one from British Columbia.

In other words, UND and UBC don't really have the same recruiting territory.

Alaska-Anchorage is a completely different story. They have six British Columbians on their roster. Only four from Alaska, and one from next-door Yukon.

MplsBison

January 11th, 2007, 11:07 AM

one "super" division for BCS conferences only. A second tier (similar to FCS), combining all non BCS conferences. I am thinking that is 5 to 10 years away. Wish it would not come to that, but BCS conferences are way too selfish, yet NCAA has to do something better accomodate everyone!

I've always wondered why this hasn't already been done.

Why not take the biggest public schools in each state along with the top private schools in the nation and create an elite college athletics association independant of the NCAA?

lizrdgizrd

January 11th, 2007, 11:31 AM

I've always wondered why this hasn't already been done.

Why not take the biggest public schools in each state along with the top private schools in the nation and create an elite college athletics association independant of the NCAA?
Is that how you dream to enter the FBS?

spelunker64

January 11th, 2007, 12:08 PM

If we let in the Canadians would there points be reduced 20% due to the exchange rate? :smiley_wi

andy7171

January 11th, 2007, 12:13 PM

Hold up! People actually live up there AND they have colleges?

MplsBison

January 11th, 2007, 04:16 PM

Is that how you dream to enter the FBS?

Just because NDSU is the top public school in our state and ASU is maybe the 4th best public school in NC (after UNC, NCSU, and ECU), doesn't mean NDSU would be invited to this hypothetical association.

lizrdgizrd

January 11th, 2007, 04:24 PM

Just because NDSU is the top public school in our state and ASU is maybe the 4th best public school in NC (after UNC, NCSU, and ECU), doesn't mean NDSU would be invited to this hypothetical association.
Your idea was to take the top public schools in each state.

And ASU is arguably the 3rd best public school in NC. At least academically if not athletically.

UNHWildCats

January 11th, 2007, 05:18 PM

Nah. The National Hockey League never changed their name.

Point of Order

The NHLs Original Six were made up of 2 Canadian Teams and 4 American Teams, though techincally only the 2 canadian teams were charter members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_6

MplsBison

January 12th, 2007, 06:17 PM

And ASU is arguably the 3rd best public school in NC. At least academically if not athletically.

That would come down to you and ECU. They beat you out in every statistical catagory, for what that's worth.

The Sheriff

January 12th, 2007, 09:45 PM

igo4uni

January 13th, 2007, 10:58 PM

Canada Sux!

roberb7

January 14th, 2007, 07:59 PM

Two more shoes have dropped, Alberta and Simon Fraser: Clan athletics department does double duty (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/features/school_zone/story.html?id=bf3353ee-9e89-4af1-9c41-5269600d1d81&k=23709)

Now for some commentary:

I expect some howls over Alberta, due to their remote location (Edmonton).

As for SFU, their interest is not a surprise. They opted to compete in the NAIA instead of the CIS when the school was founded in 1960. The government of BC at that time consisted mostly of used-car salesmen. They bought into the idea that SFU would eventually be playing in the Rose Bowl, blissfully unaware that you have to be a member of the Pac-10 to play in the Rose Bowl. (Well, I suppose it would have been possible to rent the Rose Bowl for a neutral-site game against Azusa Pacific. Would have been a lot of empty seats, though.)

As things turned out, the football team never made it to the NAIA playoffs, and they didn't have much success in men's basketball. The women's basketball team made it to the NAIA final a couple of times, however, and they have won a couple of NAIA Sears Cups.

When most of the NAIA schools in the Pacific Northwest switched to the NCAA in the early 2000's, the football and basketball teams ran out of opponents, and they had to switch to the CIS. SFU still competes in the NAIA in softball, men's and women's soccer, and some other sports.

The real attention-getter in the Province article list above is the mention of Division II. This should definitely catch the interest of the AD's at Western Washington, Central Washington, and Western Oregon, because these schools have had a lot of trouble finding opponents. However, I've pointed out elsewhere in this thread that TV money is a big part of the NCAA's interest in Vancouver, and competing in D-II won't bring in very much of it.

One other thing: SFU's nickname would have to go if they became an NCAA member. If the NCAA doesn't approve of Fighting Sioux or Redskins, they certainly aren't going to like "Clan".

star2city

January 14th, 2007, 09:52 PM

Rober7:

Would UBC really stay with the CIS for football?

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/features/school_zone/story.html?id=1ae57c6d-4c6d-4897-b398-eb7507abc67c&k=46801

Should the T-Birds first gain NCAA admission, what conference would make the most sense for them to join?

At the Div. 1 level, it’s clearly the West Coast Conference.

Geographically, the addition of a school in Vancouver would not put a stretch on the geographic boundaries of a conference that stretches from Spokane in the north, through Portland, and all the way through California.

Yes, it’s an eight-team circuit and no one likes odd numbers. But Seattle University is also attempting to secure Div. 1 membership and adding the two new schools would give the WCC members in Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and Los Angeles (Loyola Marymount).

The WCC is also a non-football conference meaning UBC could maintain its ties with the Canada West in that regard.

roberb7

January 15th, 2007, 12:57 AM

Would UBC really stay with the CIS for football?

It's within the realm of possibility, but I would bet against it. If they were to stay with the CIS for only one sport, ice hockey would make more sense, because of both geography and the CIS's far more liberal eligibility rules.

As for the WCC, I like it because I'm a baseball guy, and Gonzaga and U. of Portland have baseball teams. However, all of the current WCC members are private schools, as is prospective member Seattle U. They might not be interested in changing this.

I still hold the opinion that the Big Sky makes the most sense for football and basketball.

TexasTerror

January 15th, 2007, 08:01 AM

UBC should join the GWFC! :)

ccd494

January 16th, 2007, 08:42 PM

I actually buy WCC, leaving football in the CIS. The hockey schools have been following this pretty closely, and I think it's more likely to leave football in the CIS than the NCAA. Yes, eligibility is vastly different. However, NCAA hockey is light years ahead of the CIS on the hockey totem pole. NCAA hockey has produced numerous NHL players and stars, while the CIS produces virtually none. Why? Most CIS players have already washed out of major junior. Whereas NCAA players typically have taken alternate routes around major junior, and are generally younger and more appealing to NHL teams.

In hockey, when you are about 16, you need to decide which route you will take. Door A, taken by most Canadians and a few Americans, is Major Junior hockey. These are the leagues like the QMJHL (Quebec), OJHL (Ontario) and WHL (Western), where players are drafted and billeted with local families. Sidney Crosby, for example, played for Rimouski in the QMJHL. A few American cities host QMJHL teams, such as Lewiston, ME. The Ontario league I believe still has franchises in Michigan (Saginaw Spirit). The NCAA classifies players who play a minute of Major Junior hockey as a professional, and therefore ineligible for NCAA hockey.

Door B is the college route. Typically, at 16 or 17 (unless you live in Minnesota or Massachusetts), you will leave your high school to play at a prep school out of state (notably something like Shattuck St. Mary's in Minnesota) or with a junior program. Sometimes you will finish your career at your high school, and then take your game to a junior league. The most notable is the USHL, located mostly in the midwest. Smaller leagues such as the NAHL and EJHL also exist in the midwest/south and northeast. These players have retained their eligibility for the NCAA. Most hockey players enter college at a different age than football players, though it varies by school.

Some schools, like Minnesota and Boston College, take pride in recruiting kids directly from prep schools, high schools and the national development programs. These kids are usually normal college aged freshmen. Others, like Maine, tend to recruit more players from Canadian (non-major) junior leagues, who enter college at 20 or 21. It's a variety of styles.

But, long story short, you will produce a better program by avoiding the washouts from door A, and taking some of the cream from door B. US colleges generally beat Canadian colleges in exhibitions, while using many Canadian players. If I were UBC, or Alberta, or Simon Frasier (if they have hockey, they'd be D-I, there is no D-II), I'd want to be relevant and be an NCAA team, opening up the possibility of having players drafted, etc.

I can't imagine where UMaine would be if UBC had been D-I in the early 90's and kept the Kariyas at home :eek:

Husky Alum

January 17th, 2007, 08:16 AM

I can't imagine where UMaine would be if UBC had been D-I in the early 90's and kept the Kariyas at home :eek:

Want an idea? Look at Northeastern.
===

Here's something interesting... How about McGill to the America East?

Gives Vermont a travel partner, and I believe a football program.

That's 10 teams for the AE, a major media market in Montreal, and another football team (UNH, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, and McGill).

McGill fits the academic profile of the AE, I believe.

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 11:10 AM

How about U Toronto.

They have a billion and a half endowment.

lizrdgizrd

January 17th, 2007, 11:13 AM

That would come down to you and ECU. They beat you out in every statistical catagory, for what that's worth.
Which statistical categories are you referring to?

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 11:15 AM

Endowment, enrollment, budget, athletic budget, alumni, ...

how many do you want?

lizrdgizrd

January 17th, 2007, 11:18 AM

Endowment, enrollment, budget, athletic budget, alumni, ...

how many do you want?
I'm looking for the ones involving academics and athletics. Budget is nice, but what do you get for your money is more important.

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 11:21 AM

What numbers would those be?

Likely subjective.

lizrdgizrd

January 17th, 2007, 11:45 AM

What numbers would those be?

Likely subjective.
That's why it's arguable. But budgets are not indicators of academic quality.

DinoDex200

January 17th, 2007, 11:58 AM

Endowment, enrollment, budget, athletic budget, alumni, ...

how many do you want?

It's pretty easy to have more alumni when you let anyone into your school.

As far as Academic Reputation, ASU sits only behind Chapel Hill in regards to NC Public Universities.

BTW, I would have to say that if UBC gets DI status, it would have to be a no-brainer that they would eventually end up in either the Great West or Big Sky.

roberb7

January 17th, 2007, 01:22 PM

Here's something interesting... How about McGill to the America East?

Gives Vermont a travel partner, and I believe a football program.

That's 10 teams for the AE, a major media market in Montreal, and another football team (UNH, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, and McGill).

McGill fits the academic profile of the AE, I believe.

McGill's athletic budget is $7.3 million CAD (about $6.4 million US) and 49 varsity sports. How does this fit in with the other AE teams?

McGill was one of the first schools ever to play football. They have their own stadium, which they rent out to the Alouettes. The Redmen have not been competitve recently; 3-5 (plus a win on a forfeit) last year.

Husky Alum

January 17th, 2007, 01:47 PM

McGill fits in rather nicely with the America East.

Many of the sports they compete in, some of the AE schools compete in - if not under the AE banner, such as Wrestling, Hockey, Crew, Fencing, and Skiing.

Some of their other sports are offered by the NCAA (m/w rugby).

Some sports aren't offered by the NCAA - like cycling, and cheerleading.

The budget numbers smell reasonable to me compared to the AE.

49 Varsity sports would exceed even the number Harvard has.

Their basketball facility is real small, from what I remember.

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 04:00 PM

But budgets are not indicators of academic quality.

Of course they are.

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 04:00 PM

As far as Academic Reputation, ASU sits only behind Chapel Hill in regards to NC Public Universities.

NC State is obviously superior to ASU.

If you want to make a case for ASU being higher than ECU, I could see it.

NC State? Nope.

BisonBacker

January 17th, 2007, 04:10 PM

I've seen this topic on other boards. God now it's come to a legit board. What next???? xidiotx :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 04:13 PM

What next?

Probably Canadian universities joining the NCAA.

lizrdgizrd

January 17th, 2007, 04:15 PM

NC State is obviously superior to ASU.

If you want to make a case for ASU being higher than ECU, I could see it.

NC State? Nope.
That's the case I'm making. ASU vs ECU for #3 in the state for education. I don't know who'd win but the fact that ASU is to that point is an indication that its academic standing is moving upward.

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 04:17 PM

Once you move to FBS and garner more national recognition, more students will apply for admission, you'll have more money to spend on facilities (academic and athletic), and so on.

As you are now, in FCS, I'd say you're a smidge behind ECU because they're FBS.

lizrdgizrd

January 17th, 2007, 04:18 PM

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 04:19 PM

They more money to spend.

lizrdgizrd

January 17th, 2007, 04:22 PM

They more money to spend.
So, quality of education = amount of money spent on the university?

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 04:38 PM

So, quality of education = amount of money spent on the university?

Spent by the university for the student.

roberb7

January 17th, 2007, 05:01 PM

Their basketball facility is real small, from what I remember.

Their website says it's Love Competition Hall, built in 1941 (!), renovated in 1995. 1,500 seats.

dbackjon

January 17th, 2007, 05:10 PM

So, Mpls Bison, you are saying that the education at Harvard is worse than the education at Troy State, because Troy State is FBS????

ccd494

January 17th, 2007, 05:23 PM

Want an idea? Look at Northeastern.

Ha, maybe a little harsh, maybe New Hampshire. Or Vermont. Maine had a few HE championships prior to Kariya.

But I love the idea of merging the CIS and NCAA, or just selective schools.

My dream all sports conference:

AMERICAN DIVISION

Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Binghamton
Albany
Stony Brook

CANADIAN DIVISION

McGill
Acadia
Dalhousie
New Brunswick
St Francis Xavier?
Acadia?

May be some better options for the last two Canadian schools.

CSUBUCDAD

January 17th, 2007, 05:37 PM

Dude, I don't know anybody in Canada who doesn't drink beer. :nod:
Hell, I don't know anybody in Canuk land at allxlolx :D

aztecjim

January 17th, 2007, 05:46 PM

Does someone have a link to an article/whatever about Seattles' possible re-admission to D-I?

dbackjon

January 17th, 2007, 06:08 PM

Does someone have a link to an article/whatever about Seattles' possible re-admission to D-I?

http://seattleredhawks.cstv.com/genrel/102406aaa.html

Seven-month Study Will Determine If Seattle Should Rejoin West Coast Conference

Oct. 23, 2006

Statement regarding Seattle University inquiry into West Coast Conference membership

Seattle University has decided to review its athletic affiliation to determine if seeking membership in the West Coast Conference (WCC) would offer a better foundation for the university to develop and maintain athletic programs that will meet its educational goals.

Affiliation with the West Coast Conference (WCC) would mean returning to NCAA Division I status. Seattle University had been a member of the WCC from 1971 - 1980.

At the direction of its board of trustees, Seattle University has convened an Athletic Alignment Study Task Force to gather and analyze information relevant to the consideration of WCC status, such as athletics operating costs, financial aid costs, facilities, campus life, student recruiting and student body composition, and institutional visibility.

The Athletic Alignment Study Task Force will make its recommendations to the executive leadership of Seattle University no later than May 1, 2007, at which time the university will determine whether or not to proceed with a formal notification and request to the NCAA that it seeks Division I membership. Such a notification would trigger a one-year exploratory period overseen by the NCAA.

To me, it would seem a wise decision - and the WCC is a natural home for them to rejoin.

MplsBison

January 17th, 2007, 06:20 PM

So, Mpls Bison, you are saying that the education at Harvard is worse than the education at Troy State, because Troy State is FBS????

I'm saying the education at Harvard is better than the education at Troy because Harvard spends more and has more to spend.

dbackjon

January 17th, 2007, 06:23 PM

I'm saying the education at Harvard is better than the education at Troy because Harvard spends more and has more to spend.

which has ZERO to do with FCS vs FBS. Yes, most of the FBS schools are big money schools, but you can make ZERO assumptions when it comes to schools like ASU vs ECU that ECU has more money/resources just because they suck at FBS football.

lizrdgizrd

January 18th, 2007, 08:55 AM

Spent by the university for the student.
So what expenses would you disqualify as spent by the university but not for the student?

MplsBison

January 18th, 2007, 10:20 AM

which has ZERO to do with FCS vs FBS. Yes, most of the FBS schools are big money schools, but you can make ZERO assumptions when it comes to schools like ASU vs ECU that ECU has more money/resources just because they suck at FBS football.

They do have more money, though.

MplsBison

January 18th, 2007, 10:21 AM

So what expenses would you disqualify as spent by the university but not for the student?

It's all for the student directly or indirectly.

roberb7

October 31st, 2007, 04:18 PM

There's some recent news on this subject, in a Vancouver newspaper: http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sports/story.html?id=fc24ce9d-b418-41f1-a3c3-1125f280c385

It says that the NCAA is going to open up membership to Canadian schools in January, but only for D-II. This may be related to the moratorium the NCAA has in place for D-I membership. It also says that D-II schools can compete in one men's and one women's D-I sport, and that sport can't be football or basketball.

One observation I have is, I think it's weird that men's ice hockey and men's volleyball would count as that one D-I sport, when there's no such thing as D-II ice hockey, and men's volleyball doesn't seem to have divisions at all.

Gil Dobie

October 31st, 2007, 04:32 PM

TexasTerror

October 31st, 2007, 05:25 PM

Glad to see the NCAA/Canada issue is still on the table. I really hope that we see a few of these teams come into the fold...

The moratorium will really make things interesting especially if there are new rules that come out at the end of it...

poly51

October 31st, 2007, 05:40 PM

Cal Poly has played Simon Fraser 4 times. 3 when they were D-II and the last time as I-AA in 1997. Cal Poly won 52-12. They were all with US rules.

Go...gate

October 31st, 2007, 06:07 PM

This thread is an old chestnut!! xpopcornx xchinscratchx

Interesting idea to add some schools north of the border. I know Army plays the Royal Military College in a lot of sports.

woffordgrad94

October 31st, 2007, 06:11 PM

not gonna happen soon... IMO

What is up here? Why doesn't this poster have a name? Just curious.

Drblankstare

October 31st, 2007, 06:46 PM

All of Canada is welcome, as long as they bring beer and maple syrupxsmiley_wix

gr8ness97

October 31st, 2007, 06:58 PM

I dont think their biggest schools can reall compete on a FCS level as of yet...I studied this summer at a school in Quebec and i saw some of the highlights of the Canadian University's Champ (Laval Univeristy in Quebec City)...wasnt super impressive..and this school is 29K undergrad

Col Hogan

October 31st, 2007, 07:37 PM

What is up here? Why doesn't this poster have a name? Just curious.

It's a long story...the short version is, he chooses to remain *****...

The ***** correspond to the letters of his name...those letter were lrpah...

lrpah was a major mover here in AGS...he is a legend...

If you are around long enough, an old-timer may tell the story....:p xcoolx

roberb7

October 31st, 2007, 11:09 PM

DII is probably a good place to start. NDSU played a Canadian team, Simon Fraser, back in the 1980's, 40 something to 6 type of score.

SFU's football team hasn't been doing well lately. They finished this year with an 0-8 record. That makes three straight winless seasons, and their losing streak is 25 games.

PantherRob82

October 31st, 2007, 11:22 PM

Such a weird idea. Seems like people would start whining for more playoff sports, bowls, etc.

Fresno St. Alum

November 1st, 2007, 02:47 AM

UBC has 40,000 students and should get into the GNAC along with Simon Fraser when D-II approves them. We have talked about this on the D-II board a lot. Simon Fraser was in the PacWest in D-II in 1998 before dropping out. GNAC could use move football members they only have 5 when they bring back football in 2008.

roberb7

January 14th, 2008, 02:25 PM

The Division II members of the NCAA just voted 258-9 to allow Canadian schools to apply for membership.

Rekdiver

January 14th, 2008, 03:47 PM

Don't care one way or another if Canadian schools join our leagues but I can tell you, I ain't going to any game in Canada unless its in a dome in the months of November and December and probably October.

terrierbob

January 14th, 2008, 06:02 PM

The Division II members of the NCAA just voted 258-9 to allow Canadian schools to apply for membership.

Does each division have to separately vote?

Seawolf97

January 14th, 2008, 07:21 PM

I dont know what has changed . But when I was at Buffalo many years back we competed against the University of Toronto in soccer, basketball and track. They were always our first game of the season in basketball either home or away . Im guessing football is quite different.

UNHWildCats

January 14th, 2008, 07:40 PM

Fresno St. Alum

January 14th, 2008, 08:43 PM

roberb7, will UBC & Simon Fraser apply to D-II and the GNAC within the next couple months? Anyone else coming along with those 2?

Seawolf97

January 14th, 2008, 08:55 PM

were they counting games or exhibitions?

They may have been exhibitions. Buffalo State which is D-3 today usually won-but U of T was tough in track and soccer.

brownbear

January 14th, 2008, 08:57 PM

were they counting games or exhibitions?

They were probably exhibitions, Brown played Ontario Institute of Technology in a hockey exhibition game this year.

Lehigh Football Nation

February 8th, 2008, 01:51 PM

In (unsurprisingly) an article about hockey (and the "Brawl of the Wild" at that), the subject came up again in a Calgary newspaper.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey/2008/02/08/4834550-sun.html

Athletic directors from universities across western Canada gathered in Calgary earlier this week, and the possibility of a merger with the collegiate ranks was among the possibilities tossed around.

Some stakeholders have floated the idea of a two-tiered system, where squads would compete in a first or second division, depending on their skill level.

It was the first meeting of Canada West minds since the NCAA accepted a resolution that clears the way for Canadian schools to apply for Division II membership.

Kevin Boyles, the interim athletic director at the U of C, admitted the move has prompted Canada West members to look at ways to improve the current system.

"Like everything else, you get a knee-jerk reaction, and the first reaction to a school talking about going south is defensiveness, so the CIS's stance right now is very defensive, to try to protect the brand and what we've built over the past 25 years.

"I think, going forward, we need to consider those types of options or we will start to lose schools to the south looking for better playing opportunities in a specific sport.

"It's still years away. I don't think we're at the point where those decisions are going to be made this year, but it's a conversation that hasn't happened before."

Canada West president Clint Hamilton didn't roll out the welcome mat for SAIT or Mount Royal but acknowledged the importance of regional rivalries. He is the AD at the University of Victoria and admits a departure of Simon Fraser or UBC -- two schools making plenty of noise about applying for NCAA membership -- would be bad news for his program.

"We value their membership in the Canada West. For us to not compete with those schools would be a tremendous loss," Hamilton said.

ccd494

February 9th, 2008, 01:34 PM

So, NCAA D-II voted to allow Canadian schools to apply for membership. Let's say that UBC and Simon Fraser do so. There are rules prohibiting D-II schools from "playing up" to D-I in more than one women's and one men's sport, correct?

Does it matter if D-II does not offer a championship in that sport? There is no D-II hockey. So if UBC (Simon Fraser doesn't have a hockey team) played D-I men's and women's hockey (which most D-IIs do, St. Anselm's is the only exception), could they still be D-I anything else? Does it matter if you have a sport in which the NCAA has only a single division (like men's volleyball)?