Why isn't the Pioneer League Division III?

[woffordgrad94]

How are they different from other schools that don't give scholarships, like UW-Whitewater, Wesley, Mount Union, etc? What makes football teams like Davidson any better than them? In fact, I'd imagine that the top D-3 teams would beat Pioneer teams.

[bjtheflamesfan]

Its probably set up because they have to maintain Division I status in all sports (or something like that)

[woffordgrad94]

In a perfect world they'd make Davidson play SoCon football in order to maintain D-1 status.

[andy7171]

So they can play Division I basketball.

[Hawk98]

Because Division I isn't just about football? There are a lot of no football division I schools, but others want the football program w/o the costs of full scholarships.

[aztecjim]

Because back in the early 90s the NCAA decreed that schools that were D-I in other sports(mostly mens' basketball) had an unfair financial advantage over the Mt. Unions, UW-Whitewaters, etc. and forced schools to move their football teams to D-I. The PFL schools weren't the only ones forced to move up. Much of the present NEC and the late MAAC were also moved up. There were about 30 schools and the move had a lot to do with many of these schools having to drop football all together. St. Peter's, Iona, Fairfield, Evansville,...etc.

[woffordgrad94]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't basketball way behind football in terms of popularity? It sure is in South Carolina. I'd much rather have a stud football program than basketball...usually more people fit in football stadiums! In fact, amy South Carolinians could give a rat's betootie about basketball. Even when Wofford went to the NCAA tournament in hoops back to back basketball it did not match football's popularity.

[Professor Chaos]

Funny how that doesn't apply to hockey.

[Hawk98]

March Madness can be a financial windfall for a school that I-FCS football is unlikely to match.

[bjtheflamesfan]

I dont think that is the point woffordgrad.

[Hawk98]

Funny how that doesn't apply to hockey.

I think the NCAA allows one sport to play up, but if you have multiple sports at one level, you can't have other sports below that. That might not be exactly right, but it is close.

[Nova09]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't basketball way behind football in terms of popularity. I'd much rather have a stud football program than basketball...usually more people fit in football stadiums!

but there are many more basketball games. I'm completely making these numbers up because nova has many more basketball fans, but this sounds reasonable in my head: drawing around 12000 for 5-6 football games is fairly comparable to drawing 4-5000 for around 15 basketball games. And as someone else mentioned, having a DI basketball team provides the opportunity to make the NCAA Tournament, which is a big payday.

[Pard4Life]

:Sigh: Here we go... xpopcornx

[UNH Fanboi]

There should be scholarship minimums for FCS football. Either **** or get off the pot.

[woffordgrad94]

deleted- double post

[woffordgrad94]

Well Wofford has the opportunity to make the NCAA tournamnet in basketball just like Davidsion does...and did...twice in a row. The difference is that we, with less overall money than Davidson I might add, manage to play at a pretty decent level in D-1 football too. Davidson is copping out, saying they can't do what Wofford does. I say that's total bulljunk. If a tiny school like Wofford can do it, they can too!

[Hawk98]

There should be scholarship minimums for FCS football. Either **** or get off the pot.

If teams are willing to compete at a disadvantage, why should that matter? No scholarships didn't stop the Hawks from beating your conference champ in the playoffs last year.

[woffordgrad94]

If Davidson played Wofford in football, it would be like the Lincoln game. Sad but true. We should have scheduled Davidson. Not only would we get the extreme pleasure of a complete and total annihalation of them, but we'd get credit for a d-1 win! Wofford should schedule one of these pseudo-D1 programs instead of a D-2 or NAIA from now on- it just makes more sense if you must play a total cupcake game. Hey, if I were in charge and San Deigo would agree to play us, we'd give them a home and home, as we'd love to visit that city!

[dbackjon]

Funny how that doesn't apply to hockey.

Teams can play UP in any sport except Basketball.

[dbackjon]

I think the NCAA allows one sport to play up, but if you have multiple sports at one level, you can't have other sports below that. That might not be exactly right, but it is close.

Yes - you can play one men's and one Women's sport "up" (unless there is not a championship in that particular sport at a lower level, then that rule doesn't apply). You can not play down.

Basketball is the king on this one - if you want to play DI basketball, ALL sports must be at the DI level. Basketball is still the DI cash cow, thanks to March Madness

[Laker]

I think the NCAA allows one sport to play up, but if you have multiple sports at one level, you can't have other sports below that. That might not be exactly right, but it is close.

The way that the MSU-Mankato AD explained it to me, a school can't do that in hockey anymore- the schools that have hockey are grandfathered in, but if someone like Mount Union for example wanted to go D-1 in hockey they would have to move up in all sports. Part of the problem is that the NCAA stopped sponsoring a D2 hockey championship- teams either had to drop down to D3 or up to D1 if they wanted to be in the playoffs. I know that Johns Hopkins has an exemption for lacrosse. Minnesota State-Moorhead was talking about adding hockey but since this change came about it sounds like that is dead.

Women's hockey however must not have that rule since Lindenwood added D1 women's hockey last year. Women's hockey is very expensive to run- you don't get many spectators.

So who knows what will happen next? So many schools in the Northeast have dropped football- St. John's, Iona, Vermont, Boston U, Northeastern to name a few- better to have a non-scholarship league than drop the sport IMO.

[crusader11]

I can't wait until DetroitFlyer catches wind of this thread.

[dbackjon]

The way that the MSU-Mankato AD explained it to me, a school can't do that in hockey anymore- the schools that have hockey are grandfathered in, but if someone like Mount Union for example wanted to go D-1 in hockey they would have to move up in all sports. Part of the problem is that the NCAA stopped sponsoring a D2 hockey championship- teams either had to drop down to D3 or up to D1 if they wanted to be in the playoffs. I know that Johns Hopkins has an exemption for lacrosse. Minnesota State-Moorhead was talking about adding hockey but since this change came about it sounds like that is dead.

Women's hockey however must not have that rule since Lindenwood added D1 women's hockey last year. Women's hockey is very expensive to run- you don't get many spectators.

So who knows what will happen next? So many schools in the Northeast have dropped football- St. John's, Iona, Vermont, Boston U, Northeastern to name a few- better to have a non-scholarship league than drop the sport IMO.

That applies to DIII only. Lindenwood is DII

The schools that are playing DI in various sports (Hockey, LaCrosse, etc) are allowed one men's and one women's programs to remain. No new DIII team can complete in a DI sport that also has a DIII division.

DII schools are still allowed to play up one non-basketball sport per gender.

[woffordgrad94]

Basketball the cash cow? Tell THAT to Michigan on Notre Dame...or the University of South Carolina. Football is the money sport at quite a few schools.

[dbackjon]

Basketball the cash cow? Tell THAT to Michigan on Notre Dame...or the University of South Carolina. Football is the money sport at quite a few schools.

Yes, Basketball, and the billions the NCAA gets from March Madness, is the cash cow that runs college athletics at the DI level.

Football makes money at a few schools, tops.

[woffordgrad94]

Dayton is just like Davidson...lacking the balls to play real football. I call to you, DetroitFlyer. Explain yourself!

[DFW HOYA]

The NCAA no longer allows schools to play up in a single sport. Existing schools (Johns Hopkins lacrosse, etc.) are grandfathered in.

[Hawk98]

The NCAA no longer allows schools to play up in a single sport. Existing schools (Johns Hopkins lacrosse, etc.) are grandfathered in.


Ah, thanks. I knew there was some other twist, but I could not remember it.

[UNH Fanboi]

If teams are willing to compete at a disadvantage, why should that matter? No scholarships didn't stop the Hawks from beating your conference champ in the playoffs last year.

Please, the Patriot League was non-scholarship in name only.

If the Pioneer League were not in the playoffs, I could care less about their existence. But now the playoffs are being watered down even further to accommodate them, despite the fact that they invest the absolute bare minimum necessary to field football teams. This means that even more playoff teams will be required to win an extra game to win the championship. What is the point of having different divisions in football if there are no minimum standards? The Pioneer League is free riding on the investments being made by all of the other programs in the division.

[UNH Fanboi]

If teams are willing to compete at a disadvantage, why should that matter? No scholarships didn't stop the Hawks from beating your conference champ in the playoffs last year.

Please, the Patriot League was non-scholarship in name only.

If the Pioneer League were not in the playoffs, I could care less about their existence. But now the playoffs are being watered down even further to accommodate them, despite the fact that they invest the absolute bare minimum necessary to field football teams. This means that even more playoff teams will be required to win an extra game to win the championship. What is the point of having different divisions in football if there are no minimum standards? The Pioneer League is free riding on the investments being made by all of the other programs in the division.

[aceinthehole]

That applies to DIII only. Lindenwood is DII

The schools that are playing DI in various sports (Hockey, LaCrosse, etc) are allowed one men's and one women's programs to remain. No new DIII team can complete in a DI sport that also has a DIII division.

DII schools are still allowed to play up one non-basketball sport per gender.

DII schools are still allowed to play up one non-basketball (and non-football) sport per gender.

I don't think a D-II school could play FCS or FBS football under the current rules, right?

[aceinthehole]

The NCAA no longer allows schools to play up in a single sport. Existing schools (Johns Hopkins lacrosse, etc.) are grandfathered in.

Does this apply to both D-II and D-III schools? I thought D-II schools could still play "up" 1 sport (not basketball or football) in each gender.

So could D-II New York Institute of Technology (NYIT) which already plays D-I baseball today, choose to upgrade its women's soccer, volleyball, or softabll team to D-I next year?

[Laker]

Does this apply to both D-II and D-III schools? I thought D-II schools could still play "up" 1 sport (not basketball or football) in each gender.

So could D-II New York Institute of Technology (NYIT) which already plays D-I baseball today, choose to upgrade its women's soccer, volleyball, or softabll team to D-I next year?

Not the way it was explained to me. If there are national tournaments at that level you can't do it.

I know that Hawaii Hilo used to be D1 in baseball but they dropped down to D2. Dallas Baptist, LeMoyne and NYIT are D1 in baseball but D2 in other sports. I know that LeMoyne looked at going D1 in all sports but decided not to do it yet.

Of course- it is the NCAA. Things could change overnight.

[woffordgrad94]

Okay, I got an answer to my original question...these PFL schools are classified as D-1 in football because their D -1 status in other sports is felt to give them an advantage over other D-3 football schools. I'm not sure I totally buy that, but OK. Also, these schools are given kind of a fake D-1 football status so that they can compete as a D-1 basketball program. I still think this is a cop-out. In the SoCon, schools like Chattanooga historically and Wofford recently have shown that football need not be a sacrificial lamb at smaller Schools in order to achieve basketball success. Wofford has managed to compete very well in both sports in recent days. I think schools like Davidson, Butler, and Dayton could do the same if they set their mind to it. So come on Davidson, man up and play SoCon football with the rest if us-it need not affect your precious basketball program! Davy wins in hoops because of Coach McKillop and not a lack of SoCon football. Mckillop built that program and made it what it is...they were losing to a d-2 Wofford before he worked his magic. And he would've made Davy hoops great even if they had SoCon football. So there you go. This is my last post on this topic as I've said about all I can say on it.

[Tim James]

LeMoyne dropped down to D2 in baseball last year.

[Sader87]

Davidson basketball was strong before McKillop (Lefty Driesell anyone?)....just sayin'.

[Dane96]

Funny how that doesn't apply to hockey.

It does.

Folks...is this really happening. The Dayton rule forces ALL DI schools to play DI sports. Certain schools in sports like soccer, lacrosse, and one off sports (wrestling comes to mind) have waivers that allow their teams to play DI b/c they were grandfathered in (Oneonta, Hartwick, etc.). In sports where there is no other offering at DIII or DII, a school can play DI even if they are DIII.

Very old news....

[Dane96]

Teams can play UP in any sport except Basketball.

Not true.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't basketball way behind football in terms of popularity? It sure is in South Carolina. I'd much rather have a stud football program than basketball...usually more people fit in football stadiums! In fact, amy South Carolinians could give a rat's betootie about basketball. Even when Wofford went to the NCAA tournament in hoops back to back basketball it did not match football's popularity.

Well, I am a huge football fan, but it is clear that in the Northeast US basketball is king. I think the same is true in California. People from those locales can correct me if I am wrong.

[Dane96]

Please, the Patriot League was non-scholarship in name only.

If the Pioneer League were not in the playoffs, I could care less about their existence. But now the playoffs are being watered down even further to accommodate them, despite the fact that they invest the absolute bare minimum necessary to field football teams. This means that even more playoff teams will be required to win an extra game to win the championship. What is the point of having different divisions in football if there are no minimum standards? The Pioneer League is free riding on the investments being made by all of the other programs in the division.

Nonsense.

[Dane96]

LeMoyne dropped down to D2 in baseball last year.

Yes, because the MAAC kicked them out; they were way too good.

[Dane96]

Does this apply to both D-II and D-III schools? I thought D-II schools could still play "up" 1 sport (not basketball or football) in each gender.

So could D-II New York Institute of Technology (NYIT) which already plays D-I baseball today, choose to upgrade its women's soccer, volleyball, or softabll team to D-I next year?

No, my understanding was this loophole has been closed.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

Yes, Basketball, and the billions the NCAA gets from March Madness, is the cash cow that runs college athletics at the DI level.

Football makes money at a few schools, tops.

Well, football actually makes money at 50-60 schools at the FBS level, a little more than 50%. But your point is still true about NCAA, March Madness and Basketball ruling college athletics.

[Laker]

LeMoyne dropped down to D2 in baseball last year.

Didn't know that! Thanks for the update. Do you know what the reason was?

[Laker]

Yes, because the MAAC kicked them out; they were way too good.

Wow, you were right. And I didn't know that Syracuse didn't have baseball. Interesting article.

http://blog.syracuse.com/sports/2011/04/le_moyne_baseball_in_season_of.html

[woffordgrad94]

Sorry, but I just had to make one more post here. I just got red repped by someone who didn't even post in this thread. Oh well- you know who you are. I think it likely you're a fan of one of these fake D1 football programs. Sorry if I offended you, but I stand by my opinion- these fake-D1 football programs are most often no better than D3s and no they do not belong in the FCS playoffs, watering them down and taking at-large spots away from more deserving teams. Wanna red rep me again now? Be my guest...that stuff doesn't hurt me.

[UNH Fanboi]

Nonsense.

Great analysis.

[Dane96]

All that was needed for that commentary.

[WH49er]

Davidson would drop their football before playing scholarship football. At 63 players times $52,000, they won't pony up $3 million a year on a sport that few of their fans care about.

[Bill]

Basketball and march madness are important, but in no way are they the diving force behind DI athletics – it’s football, period…just ask the Big East or any other conference that recently lost teams to the massive conference shakeup.
I think some people forgot about the revenue sharing that occurs from conferences who have several major bowl appearances every year, and the conference TV deals with things like the “Big Ten Network”. More money goes directly to these schools than the money shared from basketball. If basketball ruled the roost, you would see conferences formed on the basis of basketball, not football.
This doesn’t even bring up the money generated from a home football game. With very, very, few exceptions the money brought in from one sold out football game (think parking and concessions too) trumps all the home basketball games combined…
Food for thought,

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson would drop their football before playing scholarship football. At 63 players times $52,000, they won't pony up $3 million a year on a sport that few of their fans care about.

Their fans care but the size of the fan population is very small. There are only 17,000 living alumni at Davidson--most I-AA teams have that many students.

[woffordgrad94]

Their fans care but the size of the fan population is very small. There are only 17,000 living alumni at Davidson--most I-AA teams have that many students.

With that logic, Wofford should drop football. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. We are even smaller than Davidson and we make it work! Being small is not a viable excuse.

[DFW HOYA]

With that logic, Wofford should drop football. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. We are even smaller than Davidson and we make it work! Being small is not a viable excuse.

It's not an excuse as I see it. Big difference between Davidson and Wofford is in breadth of sports.

Wofford has only 318 athletes of which football accounts for 60% of the male student-athlete population and 46% of the budget. Davidson has about 100 more athletes on various teams and those costs limit what can reasonably be spent on football.

Wofford athletics is 71% male but its student body is only 51% male. Should Title IX come into play, football funding would definitely become an issue.

[kdinva]

With that logic, Wofford should drop football......Being small is not a viable excuse.

Tell that to the higher-ups at VMI...........

[kdinva]

With that logic, Wofford should drop football......Being small is not a viable excuse.

Tell that to the higher-ups at VMI...........

[Go...gate]

I still think VMI may be in the Patriot League before long.

[Go Green]

Okay, I got an answer to my original question...these PFL schools are classified as D-1 in football because their D -1 status in other sports is felt to give them an advantage over other D-3 football schools. I'm not sure I totally buy that, but OK.

Dayton was the catalyst for the rule. They were a D-III powerhouse in the 1980s and many of their competitors complained. The NCAA agreed that the Daytons of the world were getting too much of an advantage and instituted the rule.

Here's an article discussing the change: http://www.northcoast.org/20/smallcolleges.pdf

[Pard4Life]

I still think VMI may be in the Patriot League before long.

Not a chance. We are dancing around Marist, a much better school.

[UAalum72]

Dayton was the catalyst for the rule. They were a D-III powerhouse in the 1980s and many of their competitors complained. The NCAA agreed that the Daytons of the world were getting too much of an advantage and instituted the rule.

Here's an article discussing the change: http://www.northcoast.org/20/smallcolleges.pdf
Except the I-AAA championship was never implemented.

BTW only St. Francis and Wagner were NEC schools forced from III to I. CCSU had been D-II. Duquesne football went into the MAAC for a decade. Monmouth and Robert Morris (and much later Bryant) began their programs as D-I under the current rules. Albany, Sacred Heart and also Stony Brook transitioned their entire programs from D-III to D-I in the 1990s.

[Apphole]

What the hell is the Pioneer League?

[DFW HOYA]

Dayton was a powerhouse, in no small part, because they maintained the infrastructure and recruiting base it had while a Div. I school in the 1970's. Most, of the Division I schools playing in D-III came up through the club model and had nothing of the sort, and they had no real "advantage" against D-III schools.

From 1978 to 1992, Dayton made 11 NCAA playoff appearances. How about the other D-I/D-III schools? Most were no threat to the playoff structure.

Wagner: 4 (4-3)
Hofstra: 2 (0-2)
Fordham: 1 (0-1)
Everyone else: 0-0
(Albany, Brooklyn, Buffalo, Canisius, Charleston Southern, Davidson, Drake, Duquesne, Fordham, Georgetown, Iona, Marist, Robert Morris, Sacred Heart, Seton Hall, Siena, St. Francis, St. Peter's, St. John's, Stony Brook, San Diego, Towson, UAB)

[Go...gate]

Not a chance. We are dancing around Marist, a much better school.

We're "dancing around" Marist - have they become a candidate again?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dayton was the catalyst for the rule. They were a D-III powerhouse in the 1980s and many of their competitors complained. The NCAA agreed that the Daytons of the world were getting too much of an advantage and instituted the rule.

Here's an article discussing the change: http://www.northcoast.org/20/smallcolleges.pdf

You got there before I did. And think about it - it's true. Dayton has big-time basketball, which includes big-time weight training facilities, coaches, and other sundry support systems that are not present at other D-III and D-II schools. Same with Drake, home of the Drake Relays. They have a speed-training program that would put many Division I programs' to tears, nevermind D-III. These are giant recruiting advantages.

I love how people come on here and say that a PFL autobid dilutes the playoffs, when there's never been any evidence one way or another that they could or could not compete.

[MplsBison]

Dayton was the catalyst for the rule. They were a D-III powerhouse in the 1980s and many of their competitors complained. The NCAA agreed that the Daytons of the world were getting too much of an advantage and instituted the rule.

Here's an article discussing the change: http://www.northcoast.org/20/smallcolleges.pdf

Wait just a dang second here! What the heck happened to prop 54???? The article says it passed...yet I've never heard of a division DI-AAA football championship (although I think the designation has been used for DI schools with no football).

That is the very exact thing that I and many others have wanted for years!

Let the schools with DI athletic departments that want NCAA recognized, "varsity" football without having scholarships have their own division and championship!

The Pioneer and Ivy could immediately move into this new division and perhaps other conferences that wanted to contain costs to bare minimums could also consider it.



This should've been done back in the early 90's like the article says it was. It should've been done yesterday. There should be people fighting to implement it today!!!

[MplsBison]

You got there before I did. And think about it - it's true. Dayton has big-time basketball, which includes big-time weight training facilities, coaches, and other sundry support systems that are not present at other D-III and D-II schools. Same with Drake, home of the Drake Relays. They have a speed-training program that would put many Division I programs' to tears, nevermind D-III. These are giant recruiting advantages.

I love how people come on here and say that a PFL autobid dilutes the playoffs, when there's never been any evidence one way or another that they could or could not compete.

It has nothing to do with on the field performance, for me.

It's the fact that they're getting something for nothing. They get to call themselves DI-AA without having to pay for it. It'd be no different if the Pioneer league schools approached the NCAA and demanded that their league be included in the I-A sub-division without having to pay for any scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

Wait just a dang second here! What the heck happened to prop 54???? The article says it passed...yet I've never heard of a division DI-AAA football championship (although I think the designation has been used for DI schools with no football).


It was shot down the next year...by Division II, who feared it would erode their membership. This led to 26 of the 27 affected schools moving up to Division I the next season. The outlier was Div. II Santa Clara, whose president summarily dropped football rather than move up.

[MplsBison]

It was shot down the next year...by Division II, who feared it would erode their membership. This led to 26 of the 27 affected schools moving up to Division I the next season. The outlier was Div. II Santa Clara, whose president summarily dropped football rather than move up.

No...it says DII voted for it. It passed at the same time prop 53 did.

You can vote for a new legislation one year and then go "whoopsies!! changed my mind" the next year? Don't think so...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No...it says DII voted for it. It passed at the same time prop 53 did.

You can vote for a new legislation one year and then go "whoopsies!! changed my mind" the next year? Don't think so...

In reality, this happens all the time. See "Full Cost of Attendance", though that was more of a ram job through the NCAA rather than a majority.

[MplsBison]

Well that still doesn't make sense. You can't go from DII football to this proposed DI-AAA football without moving your entire athletic department to DI (which has its whole own set of costly requirements).

That's no more risk than today.


Therefore people should be fighting hard right now for DI-AAA to be created. Get the Pioneer and Ivy, at a minimum, out of DI-AA !!!

[DFW HOYA]

In 1992, the NCAA posed a second vote on the I-AAA championship which required all three divisions to approve. I and III did, II did not. Whether II thought this through or not is left to history, but it did not pass and that's why the schools moved up to I-AA.

In subsequent conventions, the NCAA amended its bylaws to end the unanimous consent requirement of all three divisions.

I-AAA isn't coming back. There aren't enough schools (20?) to hold a meaningful championship (with or without the Ivy), I-A isn't interested in pursuing it, and I-AA would not want to dilute its voting representation even further. The schools affected in I-AA seem to like being there and the concept has not been seriously revisited.

[UNH Fanboi]

You got there before I did. And think about it - it's true. Dayton has big-time basketball, which includes big-time weight training facilities, coaches, and other sundry support systems that are not present at other D-III and D-II schools. Same with Drake, home of the Drake Relays. They have a speed-training program that would put many Division I programs' to tears, nevermind D-III. These are giant recruiting advantages.

I love how people come on here and say that a PFL autobid dilutes the playoffs, when there's never been any evidence one way or another that they could or could not compete.

There's plenty of evidence based on OOC results, computer rankings, etc. that the Pioneer is the worst conference in FCS (at best, 2nd worst ahead of the SWAC). I'm sure that they eventually get some wins in the playoffs, particularly with the even more diluted field. But that's not even really the point. The point is that there needs to be a minimum standard for FCS membership, or the concept of it being a separate division higher than D2 or D3 becomes meaningless.

[MplsBison]

In 1992, the NCAA posed a second vote on the I-AAA championship which required all three divisions to approve. I and III did, II did not. Whether II thought this through or not is left to history, but it did not pass and that's why the schools moved up to I-AA.

In subsequent conventions, the NCAA amended its bylaws to end the unanimous consent requirement of all three divisions.

I-AAA isn't coming back. There aren't enough schools (20?) to hold a meaningful championship (with or without the Ivy), I-A isn't interested in pursuing it, and I-AA would not want to dilute its voting representation even further. The schools affected in I-AA seem to like being there and the concept has not been seriously revisited.

How do you know the number is 20? I think plenty of schools in division I would consider moving to the new sub-division or creating a new "varsity" football team if they didn't have to pay any money to the players and minimum dollars on operational costs and coaching.

Especially if such a sport could get a title IX exemption (as it should with no scholarships). It's basically a club sport, but the winner gets a NCAA trophy at the end of the year.


Think about all those schools like Iona, etc. They could bring back their teams and be competitive in an ultra low-cost division.

[Bill]

While it sounds good in theory, there are a few problems with this:


Especially if such a sport could get a title IX exemption (as it should with no scholarships) There are no Title IX exemptions, scholarships or not. DIII schools all have to follow the same Title IX rules as DI.


creating a new "varsity" football team if they didn't have to pay any money to the players and minimum dollars on operational costs and coaching

This is almost impossible as well. The insurance costs alone are rather large, but simply outfitting the team, maintaining a field and paying coaches to be there makes this a 200K + a year task. Of course, even club sports are subject to Title IX and funding issues !

[UAalum72]

From 1978 to 1992, Dayton made 11 NCAA playoff appearances. How about the other D-I/D-III schools? Most were no threat to the playoff structure.

Wagner: 4 (4-3)
Hofstra: 2 (0-2)
Fordham: 1 (0-1)
Everyone else: 0-0
(Albany, Brooklyn, Buffalo, Canisius, Charleston Southern, Davidson, Drake, Duquesne, Fordham, Georgetown, Iona, Marist, Robert Morris, Sacred Heart, Seton Hall, Siena, St. Francis, St. Peter's, St. John's, Stony Brook, San Diego, Towson, UAB)
Albany, Sacred Heart, and Stony Brook were not Division I in this time period (in any sports, except SBU lacrosse?). Albany was in the D-III playoffs in 1977.

[MplsBison]

While it sounds good in theory, there are a few problems with this:

There are no Title IX exemptions, scholarships or not. DIII schools all have to follow the same Title IX rules as DI.



This is almost impossible as well. The insurance costs alone are rather large, but simply outfitting the team, maintaining a field and paying coaches to be there makes this a 200K + a year task. Of course, even club sports are subject to Title IX and funding issues !

200k is minimum dollars. That's what I meant. Compared to millions, anyway.

Club sports aren't part of the university, therefore title IX has no jurisdiction over them.

"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance..."

[Bill]

"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance..."

I'm not trying to get you riled up here, but your quote displays the reason why club sports can be impacted by Title IX. They are educational programs or activities run by institutions receiving federal financial assistance...

[Dane96]

Don't let facts get in the way of Bison....

[Hawk98]

"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance..."

I'm not trying to get you riled up here, but your quote displays the reason why club sports can be impacted by Title IX. They are educational programs or activities run by institutions receiving federal financial assistance...

Depends on how the club sport is handled. Some club sports the players pay for uniforms, equipment, etc and the only university thing they are getting is facilities ... that's not going to create much of a title IX obligation, if at all.

[Bill]

Hawk

You are correct...the reason I stated club teams CAN be impacted is those costs. I'm assuming (scary phrase, I know :) that Bison meant have a club team that is fully funded by the university, which would then open the Title IX can of worms...

[MplsBison]

"No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance..."

I'm not trying to get you riled up here, but your quote displays the reason why club sports can be impacted by Title IX. They are educational programs or activities run by institutions receiving federal financial assistance...

They're not.

That's the point.

[MplsBison]

Hawk

You are correct...the reason I stated club teams CAN be impacted is those costs. I'm assuming (scary phrase, I know :) that Bison meant have a club team that is fully funded by the university, which would then open the Title IX can of worms...

If it's funded by the university's athletic department, it's no longer a club team.

That's obviously why I said "like" a club team.

[MplsBison]

So anyway, you start up DI-AAA with its own championship (perhaps simply hosted by the higher seed) and that's that.

200k total costs for a varsity, division I-AAA football team. I think lots of schools would go for that.


Let's kick this thing off!!


Then you've got DI-AA for teams that mean business, 40 scholarship minimum, $2million budget minimum!!!

[MplsBison]

Depends on how the club sport is handled. Some club sports the players pay for uniforms, equipment, etc and the only university thing they are getting is facilities ... that's not going to create much of a title IX obligation, if at all.

And some don't even rent university facilities, such as NDSU's hockey club team (NDSU has no campus rink).

[UAalum72]

So anyway, you start up DI-AAA with its own championship (perhaps simply hosted by the higher seed) and that's that.

200k total costs for a varsity, division I-AAA football team. I think lots of schools would go for that.

Not even close. Siena's budget was over $200k when they dropped football ten years ago, and they were the lowest-funded and least successful team in what was left of the MAAC. With inflation and the more advanced equipment of today, you'd probably need close to double that to put out a half-decent product. Not a small matter for a 3,000- student school.

[MplsBison]

Not even close. Siena's budget was over $200k when they dropped football ten years ago, and they were the lowest-funded and least successful team in what was left of the MAAC. With inflation and the more advanced equipment of today, you'd probably need close to double that to put out a half-decent product. Not a small matter for a 3,000- student school.

I don't doubt you. Still, $400k - that's a lot less than a couple million.

At the same time, take a look at the size some of these schools sponsoring football at the DIII level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Midwest_Athletic_Conference


DI-AAA football would literally be the same thing as DIII football. If Bethany Luthern, for cripe's sake, can afford football - so could Siena.

[Laker]

If Bethany Luthern, for cripe's sake, can afford football - so could Siena.

Bethany and Northland are UMAC members but they don't have football. Bethany has soccer. There was some talk about adding football but nothing has come out of it.

[MplsBison]

Bethany and Northland are UMAC members but they don't have football. Bethany has soccer. There was some talk about adding football but nothing has come out of it.

Ah, thanks. Crown College then.

[Laker]

Ah, thanks. Crown College then.

I went to a football game at Crown a few years ago. Three of our former players were starting for Augsburg and another was a grad assistant for Crown. Complete blowout for Auggie. The stadium is tiny and there were less people there than at our high school games. Not a bad campus though.

[MplsBison]

I went to a football game at Crown a few years ago. Three of our former players were starting for Augsburg and another was a grad assistant for Crown. Complete blowout for Auggie. The stadium is tiny and there were less people there than at our high school games. Not a bad campus though.

Siena is about the same size as Augsburg and with a much larger endowment. Sounds like their chances of competing at the DIII level would be good, therefore they'd be competitive in the new DI-AAA level.

[Laker]

Siena is about the same size as Augsburg and with a much larger endowment. Sounds like their chances of competing at the DIII level would be good, therefore they'd be competitive in the new DI-AAA level.

The way that St. Thomas is going, they could compete. I bet that there isn't another D3 team in the country that has a clear channel flagship station like WCCO doing their games. I was amazed when St. John's had THREE stations doing their games- WBHR-660 AM (St. Cloud), KOWZ-1170 AM (Owatonna), WLOL-1330 AM (Twin Cities). They don't have as strong a signal but that is incredible.

I'm still not used to WCCO not having the Gophers, Twins and Vikings.

[UAalum72]

Siena is about the same size as Augsburg and with a much larger endowment. Sounds like their chances of competing at the DIII level would be good, therefore they'd be competitive in the new DI-AAA level.
In five years at D-III Siena's record was 11-34. As non-scholarship I-AA, playing many D-III schools, and only one scholarship opponent (FAU), they were 22-83 with three winless seasons.

Put it this way, they were way worse than St. Francis PA.

[Bill]

Bison
It doesn't matter if the club team is funded by the athletic department, student fees, intramurals, whatever. If it's funded by the university, it is subject to title IX. If it's not funded by the university, it will be very to tough to find someone who will insure the team let alone pay for the equipment and coaches.....

[poly51]

One thing to remember is that Pioneer League football players are eligible for all of the same academic or hardship scholarships, grants or loans that non athletes are eligible for. Since football players can't work I am sure quite a few are on academic or hardship scholarships.

[Go Green]

I got to tell you-- I really wish the "Dayton Rule" was more well-known. Every six months or so on the Ivy Board, there's some old guy lamenting about how far the league has fallen and that in his day, 25,000 was considered a pathetic crowd, and that if we all don't wake up, the Ivy will go to Division III.

I try to tell him that going D-III means going to D-III in every sport under NCAA rules.

He doesn't believe me. The more informed (relatively speaking) cite Johns Hopkins.

I say they've been grandfathered. And then explain the whole history behind the Dayton Rule, etc.

I swear, happens at least twice a year. Been about six months or so since the last time... should be any day now that some old coot sounds the "we're going D-III" sirens again...

:(

[MplsBison]

The way that St. Thomas is going, they could compete. I bet that there isn't another D3 team in the country that has a clear channel flagship station like WCCO doing their games. I was amazed when St. John's had THREE stations doing their games- WBHR-660 AM (St. Cloud), KOWZ-1170 AM (Owatonna), WLOL-1330 AM (Twin Cities). They don't have as strong a signal but that is incredible.

I'm still not used to WCCO not having the Gophers, Twins and Vikings.

That doesn't bother me given the size of St Thomas and the twin cities alumni base and their recent success.

What bothers me much more is that fact that public schools with greater than 10k enrollments are allowed to participate in DIII. But that's for another thread...

[MplsBison]

In five years at D-III Siena's record was 11-34. As non-scholarship I-AA, playing many D-III schools, and only one scholarship opponent (FAU), they were 22-83 with three winless seasons.

Put it this way, they were way worse than St. Francis PA.

Nonetheless, they could easily have a DIII team now if the NCAA allowed that (ie, there was no rule against being DI with a DIII football team). Therefore, since DI-AAA would be the equivalent of that for DI teams, they could easily have a DI-AAA team.

So could a lot of DI schools.

That was really my point.

[MplsBison]

Bison
It doesn't matter if the club team is funded by the athletic department, student fees, intramurals, whatever. If it's funded by the university, it is subject to title IX. If it's not funded by the university, it will be very to tough to find someone who will insure the team let alone pay for the equipment and coaches.....

Any program that is funded by the university is part of the university. That should go without saying.

My definition of a club team is not funded by the university. That's what I meant from the start. Insurance has nothing to do with where the money comes from. If you have the money, you have a policy.

[MplsBison]

One thing to remember is that Pioneer League football players are eligible for all of the same academic or hardship scholarships, grants or loans that non athletes are eligible for. Since football players can't work I am sure quite a few are on academic or hardship scholarships.

Same exact situation at DIII schools. And in both cases I guarantee as fact that football players get more than their fair share of those awards, because they're football players. But the schools don't have to report that to the NCAA as scholarships because they're technically open to all students (even though normal students will never get them).

[DFW HOYA]

My definition of a club team is not funded by the university. That's what I meant from the start.

Most club teams recieve some sort of university funding and/or support, but even that's not always enough: Xavier cancelled their 2012 season because of injuries after the first game of the season.

There are few "independent" club teams out there but it's not always sustainable.

http://www.ncfafootball.org/Teams.aspx

[Sader87]

I noticed BU no longer has a club football team according to that website.

[Dane96]

Any program that is funded by the university is part of the university. That should go without saying.

My definition of a club team is not funded by the university. That's what I meant from the start. Insurance has nothing to do with where the money comes from. If you have the money, you have a policy.

WHAT?

if you have money you have a policy...what on earth are you getting at.

And most...MOST...club teams come with some use of University facilities or student supported fees.

JEESH.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I noticed BU no longer has a club football team according to that website.

They still do have a team:

http://yankeecollegiatefootballconference.webs.com/conferenceschedule.htm

Here's the kicker: they can't play at Nickerson field. They play at MIT's stadium. Unbelievable.

[kdinva]

......What bothers me much more is that fact that public schools with greater than 10k enrollments are allowed to participate in DIII....

I have to agree with "bison" on this one.......... xbowx

[MplsBison]

Most club teams recieve some sort of university funding and/or support, but even that's not always enough: Xavier cancelled their 2012 season because of injuries after the first game of the season.

There are few "independent" club teams out there but it's not always sustainable.

http://www.ncfafootball.org/Teams.aspx

Obviously anything that receives money from the university is then subject to title IX.

Per typical AGS, it was a very minute, tangential component of the main argument that was blown way out of proportion in the hopes of dodging the main argument.

Obviously any DI athletic department that starts a DI-AAA football team is going to have to deal with title IX. Whoopity friggin' doo - so have all the DIII schools and they've lived to tell about it.

[MplsBison]

WHAT?

if you have money you have a policy...what on earth are you getting at.

And most...MOST...club teams come with some use of University facilities or student supported fees.

JEESH.

Is your house on fire? Then settle down.

Bill made a false statement. I corrected him.

[MplsBison]

Unless anyone else has something more to actually contribute to the discussion (like DFW, UA, Laker or Go Green), then I think we can close the topic.

My dream would be to get DI-AAA started and force any team that didn't sponsor at least 40 scholarships to it. Probably will never happen, but that's my dream. And at least now I know that my dream was this close to reality, so a guy can hope.

[downbythebeach]

Mpls,
that's your dream?
set your goals higher.

[Hawk98]

Unless anyone else has something more to actually contribute to the discussion (like DFW, UA, Laker or Go Green), then I think we can close the topic.

My dream would be to get DI-AAA started and force any team that didn't sponsor at least 40 scholarships to it. Probably will never happen, but that's my dream. And at least now I know that my dream was this close to reality, so a guy can hope.

I can't understand why it is so important not to have non-scholarship schools in I-FCS? If a school wants to be at a disadvantage, why does it matter?

[MplsBison]

Mpls,
that's your dream?
set your goals higher.

A guy can only have one dream?

[MplsBison]

I can't understand why it is so important not to have non-scholarship schools in I-FCS? If a school wants to be at a disadvantage, why does it matter?

If they were just off in their own corner, riding the short bus, playing with themselves - I would still care, but it wouldn't be as important.

Now they've unfairly been given access to the playoffs - so it directly dilutes the the I-AA brand for all schools that participate. It matters now. If they get to be in the playoffs, then they should have to spend more money on their programs. -OR- Let's make a new "DIII style" division for them, like was the original plan that everyone approved!!

[Bill]

Bison
I have to ask - what false statement did I make, and how did you "correct" me?

[MplsBison]

False statement: "If it's not funded by the university, it will be very to tough to find someone who will insure the team"

Correction: "Insurance has nothing to do with where the money comes from. If you have the money, you have a policy."

[Hawk98]

If they were just off in their own corner, riding the short bus, playing with themselves - I would still care, but it wouldn't be as important.

Now they've unfairly been given access to the playoffs - so it directly dilutes the the I-AA brand for all schools that participate. It matters now. If they get to be in the playoffs, then they should have to spend more money on their programs. -OR- Let's make a new "DIII style" division for them, like was the original plan that everyone approved!!

NCAA regulations require they have access to the playoffs. This isn't I-FBS where only the rich schools need apply. No at large teams are hurt by adding them in ... in fact, they added more at large teams. If they aren't competitive, they'll lose.

[Bill]

Bison
This is one of the problems with message boards. We are both reading the same writing, yet are inferring different meanings. I am well aware that an insurance company does not care where the money comes from. My statement says " it will be very tough to find someone who will insure the team", and I stand by that statement. Who is the someone that will pay for an insurance policy? What college student (or family) will pay to insure a club football team that is not actually affiliated with a college???

[MplsBison]

NCAA regulations require they have access to the playoffs. This isn't I-FBS where only the rich schools need apply. No at large teams are hurt by adding them in ... in fact, they added more at large teams. If they aren't competitive, they'll lose.

It doesn't matter if the NCAA's hand was forced, I-AAA teams being in the I-AA playoffs still dilutes the value of the I-AA brand. That they will lose, lose often and lose every game only more intensely reinforces this perception, especially in the wake of (this year) some badly publicized blowout losses to I-A schools by Savannah St.

I-AAA teams were supposed to have their own sub-division. That was the deal that was voted on and approved. Damnit it should've happened!!

[MplsBison]

Bison
This is one of the problems with message boards. We are both reading the same writing, yet are inferring different meanings. I am well aware that an insurance company does not care where the money comes from. My statement says " it will be very tough to find someone who will insure the team", and I stand by that statement. Who is the someone that will pay for an insurance policy? What college student (or family) will pay to insure a club football team that is not actually affiliated with a college???

This irrelevant, red herring tangent stops now.

If a club football teams receives money from a university that receives federal money the club is therefore subject to title IX. If it does not, it is not. Fact and fact. END

[Seawolf97]

So they can play Division I basketball.

Exactly. Play D1 hoops football must be D1 either FCS or FBS. I believe it is the Dayton Rule in 1997 that made that happen. Hence schools like St Johns dropped their D3 teams rather than move up. SBU used to play St Johns every Thanksgiving weekend went to a few of them.

[UAalum72]

Exactly. Play D1 hoops football must be D1 either FCS or FBS. I believe it is the Dayton Rule in 1997 that made that happen. Hence schools like St Johns dropped their D3 teams rather than move up. SBU used to play St Johns every Thanksgiving weekend went to a few of them.
They tried, St. John's played in the MAAC for7 or 8 years, got kicked out for recruiting violations, played two years in the NEC, then one more back in the MAAC before dropping the sport.

[Hawk98]

It doesn't matter if the NCAA's hand was forced, I-AAA teams being in the I-AA playoffs still dilutes the value of the I-AA brand. That they will lose, lose often and lose every game only more intensely reinforces this perception, especially in the wake of (this year) some badly publicized blowout losses to I-A schools by Savannah St.

I-AAA teams were supposed to have their own sub-division. That was the deal that was voted on and approved. Damnit it should've happened!!

I suggest you reread the link. They voted to approve the drafting of legislation creating I-AAA. It was then voted down by Division II the following year.

[dgtw]

Bill....is that Winston Churchill or W.C. Fields in your avatar? (Serious question)

[Laker]

Bill....is that Winston Churchill or W.C. Fields in your avatar? (Serious question)

That has to be Winston- his nose isn't glowing. xsmiley_wix

[blukeys]

Bill....is that Winston Churchill or W.C. Fields in your avatar? (Serious question)

Sigh. As a former teacher of 20th century History, this is just sad. I will have to have another drink to console myself. While Churchill had many great drinking quotes, I will reference Fields.

"It was a woman who drove me to drink and if I could ever find her, I would thank her."

[Laker]

"Reminds me of my safari in Africa. Somebody forgot the corkscrew and for several days we had to live on nothing but food and water." W.C. Fields

My favorite Churchill quote: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

[dgtw]

I was pretty sure it was Churchill, but the more I looked, it also resembled Fields.

[Bill]

Guys

Yes, it's Sir Winston Churchill. I'm a big fan of his, and the avatar has a very special and personal family meaning for me - my late son was named Winston, so it's one way of remembering him!

[dgtw]

Guys

Yes, it's Sir Winston Churchill. I'm a big fan of his, and the avatar has a very special and personal family meaning for me - my late son was named Winston, so it's one way of remembering him!

Thanks, now that you've said that and I look at the photo again its pretty obvious. But a combination of a small picture and my poor eyesight made it a bit more difficult.

[woffordgrad94]

I'm very sorry you lost your son Bill. That's got to be very hard to have to deal with.

[dgtw]

I'm very sorry you lost your son Bill. That's got to be very hard to have to deal with.

Yes, that is something I hope I never have to go through, very sad to hear.

Part of the reason I asked to confirm is that sometimes I like to imagine the avatar speaking when I read the post, so I needed to know what voice to imagine. (Yeah, I admit that's kind of weird).

[Bill]

Wofford and dgtw,

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, it was a miserable experience - he was just an infant. I am not that old (41), but the experience took several years off my life! I do have 3 great kids still with me, so my Churchill avatar is just one way of remembering my son (OK, it's pretty strange to look at Churchill to remember one's infant, but I think we all have issues on this site :)

[downbythebeach]

A guy can only have one dream?

Mpls,
you kill me.

[Go Green]

I got to tell you-- I really wish the "Dayton Rule" was more well-known. Every six months or so on the Ivy Board, there's some old guy lamenting about how far the league has fallen and that in his day, 25,000 was considered a pathetic crowd, and that if we all don't wake up, the Ivy will go to Division III.

I try to tell him that going D-III means going to D-III in every sport under NCAA rules.

He doesn't believe me. The more informed (relatively speaking) cite Johns Hopkins.

I say they've been grandfathered. And then explain the whole history behind the Dayton Rule, etc.

I swear, happens at least twice a year. Been about six months or so since the last time... should be any day now that some old coot sounds the "we're going D-III" sirens again...

:(

It just happened again! Right on schedule! xnodx

Although to this guy's credit, he was indeed familiar with the Dayton Rule and suggested that the Ivy would petition the NCAA for a D-III exception in football.

[M Ruler]

Wofford and dgtw,

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, it was a miserable experience - he was just an infant. I am not that old (41), but the experience took several years off my life! I do have 3 great kids still with me, so my Churchill avatar is just one way of remembering my son (OK, it's pretty strange to look at Churchill to remember one's infant, but I think we all have issues on this site :)

FWIW I do not think its not weird in any way.

God Bless!!