BREAKING Idaho football news

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Vandals will go independent in football, but join the Big Sky in all other sports. Per Jim Allen of the Spokesman Review in a live chat. I'll post a link as soon as I have one.

[Squealofthepig]

Whoa, big news. Looking forward to hearing more (and still think you guys will beat 'em up anyway this season).

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Here's the first story I've found:
http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/08/16/bmurphy/idaho_go_independent_football_join_big_sky_other_s ports

[NHwildEcat]

I think it is only a matter of time before they drop to FCS for football. I am sure Idaho is nice and there is a lot of green and clean air etc...but few FBS teams are going to find that a desirable destination for OOC travel. I don't see scheduling road games to be a big issue, but home games I think will be a nightmare.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

I have to imagine that this is the first step towards Idaho football rejoining the Big Sky as well. They can let their fans slowly acclimate back into all sports in the Big Sky.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I have to imagine that this is the first step towards Idaho football rejoining the Big Sky as well. They can let their fans slowly acclimate back into all sports in the Big Sky.

Yep. Delaying/easing into the inevitable.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A reminder, they need at a bare minimum four home games against FBS competition to remain at that level. It might be doable for a season, maybe two if they're very lucky, but I don't see how it's possible beyond that.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

A reminder, they need at a bare minimum four home games against FBS competition to remain at that level. It might be doable for a season, maybe two if they're very lucky, but I don't see how it's possible beyond that.

Agreed, they may be able to sign a few home and home deals over the next two years, but I don't think they survive as an indy past 2014.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

My question now, which is slightly off topic, what happens to New Mexico State University? It sounded like they were in worse shape than Idaho, and with Idaho bolting, the WAC is well beyond the point of being on life support.

[NHwildEcat]

A reminder, they need at a bare minimum four home games against FBS competition to remain at that level. It might be doable for a season, maybe two if they're very lucky, but I don't see how it's possible beyond that.

Yeah, they definetely know that. In the article they mention how they don't plan on being an Indy for more then 2-3 years or so. So I think the school knows how this will play out, but they are going to try and save some face and show the alums/fans that they can't support FBS qualifications anymore and have no choice but to move down.

[NHwildEcat]

My question now, which is slightly off topic, what happens to New Mexico State University? It sounded like they were in worse shape than Idaho, and with Idaho bolting, the WAC is well beyond the point of being on life support.

Looks like they are Indy next year as well. Can these schools schedule a home and home within the same season?

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Looks like they are Indy next year as well. Can these schools schedule a home and home within the same season?

This?
http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&biw=1429&bih=984&tbm=isch&tbnid=IxIeSZ-CX978BM:&imgrefurl=http://www.egriz.com/grizboard/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D1%26t%3D57127&docid=k1hmhUv1kZ4utM&imgurl=http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1062748/WAC.jpg&w=392&h=400&ei=xlAtUMC0IqTniAL5m4DADQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=531&vpy=131&dur=2434&hovh=227&hovw=222&tx=49&ty=246&sig=101138340187298403209&page=1&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&start=0&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:82

Sorry for the link, for whatever reason I wasn't able to insert the image.

[NHwildEcat]

This?
http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&biw=1429&bih=984&tbm=isch&tbnid=IxIeSZ-CX978BM:&imgrefurl=http://www.egriz.com/grizboard/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D1%26t%3D57127&docid=k1hmhUv1kZ4utM&imgurl=http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1062748/WAC.jpg&w=392&h=400&ei=xlAtUMC0IqTniAL5m4DADQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=531&vpy=131&dur=2434&hovh=227&hovw=222&tx=49&ty=246&sig=101138340187298403209&page=1&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&start=0&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:82

Sorry for the link, for whatever reason I wasn't able to insert the image.

Looks like an auto-bid to a BCS bowl with that kind of slate!

[TheRevSFA]

This?
http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&biw=1429&bih=984&tbm=isch&tbnid=IxIeSZ-CX978BM:&imgrefurl=http://www.egriz.com/grizboard/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D1%26t%3D57127&docid=k1hmhUv1kZ4utM&imgurl=http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1062748/WAC.jpg&w=392&h=400&ei=xlAtUMC0IqTniAL5m4DADQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=531&vpy=131&dur=2434&hovh=227&hovw=222&tx=49&ty=246&sig=101138340187298403209&page=1&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&start=0&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:82

Sorry for the link, for whatever reason I wasn't able to insert the image.

Gotcha covered

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1062748/WAC.jpg

[NHwildEcat]

Gotcha covered

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1062748/WAC.jpg

That WAC title game could be very important...could break the season series tie.

[eaglewraith]

A reminder, they need at a bare minimum four home games against FBS competition to remain at that level. It might be doable for a season, maybe two if they're very lucky, but I don't see how it's possible beyond that.

Thought the minimum was 5 home games?

[NHwildEcat]

Thought the minimum was 5 home games?

It is, but 4 have to be FBS opposition. So 1 FCS or other can be scheduled.

[TheRevSFA]

MLPS to swoop in and say the WAC should pick up NDSU and east coast schools in 3...2....1.....

[Sec310]

MLPS to swoop in and say the WAC should pick up NDSU and east coast schools in 3...2....1.....


Can you and your buddy from LeHigh both STFU. Ok, we get it, both of you hate MLPS. But, do you really have to be a dick and keep attacking him or in LeHigh's case, reply to a post that has been dead since MAY. Sorry to interrupt your stupid, immature teasing of MLPS, please continue.

[Mr. C]

I can't see being an independent helping Idaho very much. There will be zero chance of playing in a bowl game and little else for players to compete for, except for pride. No conference championships, lousy home schedules, troubles with recruiting and retaining coaches etc. I can't see this lasting long term. The Vandals either get into a difference FBS conference for football, or become the first team to complete an FBS transition and then drop back down.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

That escalated quickly.

[Silenoz]

I don't know who he is, but I find anyone with a red dot calling someone a "dick" pretty funny xlolx

[TheRevSFA]

Can you and your buddy from LeHigh both STFU. Ok, we get it, both of you hate MLPS. But, do you really have to be a dick and keep attacking him or in LeHigh's case, reply to a post that has been dead since MAY. Sorry to interrupt your stupid, immature teasing of MLPS, please continue.

Who the **** is this guy? ^

[Mr. C]

I'm surprised he has 195 posts and I've never encountered him. Like someone else said, the red button is indicative.

[TheRevSFA]

actually I'm still laughing at his post.

[dgtw]

Yeah, they definetely know that. In the article they mention how they don't plan on being an Indy for more then 2-3 years or so. So I think the school knows how this will play out, but they are going to try and save some face and show the alums/fans that they can't support FBS qualifications anymore and have no choice but to move down.

I agree. They'll do their best for a couple years but then they'll say they did their best but being an FBS independent at a place like Idaho just isn't feasible in this day and age and are reluctantly dropping down to the FCS leverl. Then they'll say how excited they are about renewing rivalries with geographic neighbors Montana, Montana St., etc. They'll probably not mention the fact the NCAA told them they looked the other way on the five home game rule for a while but now needed to urinate or get off the pot.

This is probably the final nail in the WAC's coffin. I'm guessing NMSU will try to beg their way into the MWC or will drop down and beg their way into the Southland. Would the Southland even want them. Might they do it just to be nice?

[Grizalltheway]

Who the **** is this guy? ^

MPLS reincarnated, obviously. Who else would jump to that autistic mother****er's defense?

[darell1976]

Vandals will go independent in football, but join the Big Sky in all other sports. Per Jim Allen of the Spokesman Review in a live chat. I'll post a link as soon as I have one.

Idaho + Indy = DEATH!!! Good luck to the Vandals getting 5 or 6 FBS teams to the Kibbie dome for either a sellout or a good crowd. Lately their OOC games have been MAC teams and FCS teams. No conference no money. Why doesn't Idaho save everyone the trouble and just move down to the BSC.

[HappyAppy]

Yeah, they definetely know that. In the article they mention how they don't plan on being an Indy for more then 2-3 years or so. So I think the school knows how this will play out, but they are going to try and save some face and show the alums/fans that they can't support FBS qualifications anymore and have no choice but to move down.




I agree. They'll do their best for a couple years but then they'll say they did their best but being an FBS independent at a place like Idaho just isn't feasible in this day and age and are reluctantly dropping down to the FCS leverl. Then they'll say how excited they are about renewing rivalries with geographic neighbors Montana, Montana St., etc. They'll probably not mention the fact the NCAA told them they looked the other way on the five home game rule for a while but now needed to urinate or get off the pot.

This is probably the final nail in the WAC's coffin. I'm guessing NMSU will try to beg their way into the MWC or will drop down and beg their way into the Southland. Would the Southland even want them. Might they do it just to be nice?

I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow Idaho that closely, but this idea seems pretty insane.

So Idaho knows that this FBS plan is going to fail and they are going to end up in FCS anyway. Instead of getting it over with, they are going to spend a ton more money, go through a ton of headaches to throw together a hodgepodge schedule of random teams, have no shot at a bowl game or conference championship. When that nightmare is over, and they have lost all that money and lost all those games, the alumni/fans are going to be happier going to FCS because atleast they tried?

I just don't see it. Idaho has already lost plenty of FBS games and averaged < 12,000 fans a game. It's not like they have some huge rabid fanbase to keep pleased. I would imagine that those 12,000 fans they get now are either diehard fans/alumni or local fans who go because it's the only ticket in town. Those people are going to be fine going to the FCS after 2 or 3 more years of 3 win seasons against whatever FBS schedule they can stich together, but they are going to stop supporting the program if they go to the FCS now?

Just doesn't seem like it would be worth it to delay the inevitable. If they are going independent and they know they are only going to sustain it a couple of years, wouldn't they have to think they have atleast a shot at finding an FBS home?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow Idaho that closely, but this idea seems pretty insane.

So Idaho knows that this FBS plan is going to fail and they are going to end up in FCS anyway. Instead of getting it over with, they are going to spend a ton more money, go through a ton of headaches to throw together a hodgepodge schedule of random teams, have no shot at a bowl game or conference championship. When that nightmare is over, and they have lost all that money and lost all those games, the alumni/fans are going to be happier going to FCS because atleast they tried?

I just don't see it. Idaho has already lost plenty of FBS games and averaged < 12,000 fans a game. It's not like they have some huge rabid fanbase to keep pleased. I would imagine that those 12,000 fans they get now are either diehard fans/alumni or local fans who go because it's the only ticket in town. Those people are going to be fine going to the FCS after 2 or 3 more years of 3 win seasons against whatever FBS schedule they can stich together, but they are going to stop supporting the program if they go to the FCS now?

Just doesn't seem like it would be worth it to delay the inevitable. If they are going independent and they know they are only going to sustain it a couple of years, wouldn't they have to think they have atleast a shot at finding an FBS home?
They are delaying the inevitable because all issues are not settled yet and any more shifts could make them somwhat viable for an invite to a couple of different conferences. I think they are willing to take a hit financially right now to hold out hope that something opens up for them in the next year and 1/2 or so.

They are where they are now and don't have much choice other than to play out the string at this point and hope for a miracle that allows them an invite somewhere.

[Ginsbach]

I figured this would happen sooner rather than later.

I have a hard time seeing the Vandals getting enough teams to come to Moscow to fill out even the 2013 schedule. I have a feeling that they'll be seeing the Big Sky in football sooner than they expect.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I figured this would happen sooner rather than later.

I have a hard time seeing the Vandals getting enough teams to come to Moscow to fill out even the 2013 schedule. I have a feeling that they'll be seeing the Big Sky in football sooner than they expect.

The gamble may cost themthe football program altogether if they wait too long as well. It has not been a financially good move and it is bound to get worse and you never know when someone is gonna step in an say "enough is enough" we need to drop football.

[dgtw]

Would the Big Sky let them stay if they dropped football?

I wonder what will become of Seattle and Denver. Seattle used to be in the WCC, I guess they could try to get back in that league. Where would Denver fit in? Summit? Missouri Valley?

[Screamin_Eagle174]

They are delaying the inevitable because all issues are not settled yet and any more shifts could make them somwhat viable for an invite to a couple of different conferences. I think they are willing to take a hit financially right now to hold out hope that something opens up for them in the next year and 1/2 or so.

They are where they are now and don't have much choice other than to play out the string at this point and hope for a miracle that allows them an invite somewhere.

Yep. Akin to a sinking ship; this is their last breath before going under. Chances of someone throwing them a floatie don't look good.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Would the Big Sky let them stay if they dropped football?

I wonder what will become of Seattle and Denver. Seattle used to be in the WCC, I guess they could try to get back in that league. Where would Denver fit in? Summit? Missouri Valley?

Yes, the BSC "old guard" will welcome them back even without football. Montana, MSU, EWU, Weber, ISU, etc. would love to see them back for BBall alone. Those were special rivalries in all sports.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yep. Akin to a sinking ship; this is their last breath before going under. Chances of someone throwing them a floatie don't look good.

May as well hold out for that life line when you have a life raft handy. The reason I think we'll know within a year and a half is that they know they are gamblin with a total shutdown if they try Independance for any real length of time and don't commit to the drop back then they don't have a choice once the "drop football because it's taking money away from the school and it's core mission" group have enough to go on"

[Hammerhead]

Especially with a 16,000 seat stadium.


I think it is only a matter of time before they drop to FCS for football. I am sure Idaho is nice and there is a lot of green and clean air etc...but few FBS teams are going to find that a desirable destination for OOC travel. I don't see scheduling road games to be a big issue, but home games I think will be a nightmare.

[NoCoDanny]

They are just biding time for a couple years hoping a bunch of teams leave the Mtn West to join SDSU and Boise in the Big East and they get into the MWC.

[I Bleed Purple]

There are a lot of Idaho fans with a superiority complex...

[bincitysioux]

So, the Idaho A.D. says he doesn't expect to be an independent for more than two years. That means in 2015 he expects Idaho to have a conference for football.

Remind me, when do Nevada, Fresno St., and Hawaii have to stop making their installment payments for the exit fees?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Would the Big Sky let them stay if they dropped football?

I wonder what will become of Seattle and Denver. Seattle used to be in the WCC, I guess they could try to get back in that league. Where would Denver fit in? Summit? Missouri Valley?

Idaho back in the Big Sky in all sports including football seems to make sense to everyone but the Vandals themselves. Travel costs would really be helped by it alone.

Seattle left the WCC in bad circumstances, so I understand, and they've actually were flat-out denied before deciding to join the WAC.

Denver seems like a Summit team. Weren't they there before?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

There are a lot of Idaho fans with a superiority complex...

Good, some things don't change. They were always good fans that traveled fairly well but they were better than you...like Montana fans can be now.:D

[bincitysioux]

Denver seems like a Summit team. Weren't they there before?

No, Denver has never been in the Summit. But the Summit may be their last option.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

John Blanchette absolutely nails it. Out of the park.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/aug/16/blanchette-vandals-forced-watch-sky/

What’s official is this: There’s a lot of hard swallowing going on, all over the Vandal map.

So ardently has the school sought to distance itself from the very notion of the Big Sky for the last 17 years that now mockers and myopics have all the ammo they need to spin this looping back as apocalypse, or at least high comedy.

You know college football fans. They think the only thing better than a touchdown pass is a teaspoon of schadenfreude.

But of all the times over the years the Vandals have trudged into the BOE with skinned knees, it does seem as if they’re down to the last Band-Aid.

...

But the most delicious irony in all of this is that now those hard-liners – whether they be politicians, big donors or just football snobs – will have to explain why the Big Sky is good enough for every other athlete at the University of Idaho, but not for football players.

And they can’t. Not with a straight face, and not without acknowledging that it really isn’t about the athletes at all and apparently not what’s best for the school but simply about themselves.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

And if you want some more humor, you can read this thread.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=9236143

[I Bleed Purple]

And if you want some more humor, you can read this thread.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=9236143

I read the WAC news forum on that site for my humor.

[dgtw]

Idaho back in the Big Sky in all sports including football seems to make sense to everyone but the Vandals themselves. Travel costs would really be helped by it alone.

Seattle left the WCC in bad circumstances, so I understand, and they've actually were flat-out denied before deciding to join the WAC.


I've heard that as well. They left the WCC in 1980 to go to the NAIA and later joined DII. I wonder what the bad blood is about, thirty years sounds like a long time to carry a grudge. They'd be an instate rival for the league's marquee school, Gonzaga.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I read the WAC news forum on that site for my humor.


I'm all about trying to wait out the conference musical chairs. If it doesn't work out we might have to drop down, but at least give it a try. Dropping down now will admit defeat prematurely.

ROFLMAO

[ursus arctos horribilis]

ROFLMAO

How is that different from what I said a page or two ago?

They are most certainly in a defeated state and can not do anything on their own for sure but what he said is pretty much right on isn't it?

[MplsBison]

http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/08/17/bmurphy/state_board_gives_idaho_approval_become_football_i ndependent_joi


The Idaho State Board of Education voted Friday to give the University of Idaho authority to become a Football Bowl Subdivision independent and negotiate and accept an invitation to the Big Sky in Olympic sports. The board's motion also allows Idaho to join the Big Sky in football.

The board voted 5-1 with the only no vote coming from State Board President Ken Edmunds. Edmunds wanted Idaho to have to return to the board if it chooses to place its football program in the Big Sky.

Idaho President Duane Nellis and Athletic Director Rob Spear — who joined the meeting via telephone — argued that they needed flexibility in case they were not able to schedule FBS games.

Spear said he was "quite confident we are able to do this (in regards to scheduling)."

On a teleconference later in the day, Spear said the Vandals have five games scheduled for 2013, are close to signing three more game contracts, are in negotiations with two other schools and are planning to play New Mexico State twice in 2013 — for a total of 12 games.

Five of those games must be at home and four of the home games must be against FBS teams.

Idaho has four known football games for 2013 — at Mississippi, at Wyoming, at Washington, vs. Northern Illinois. Spear said the fifth game was simply pending his signature and a review by the school's legal department.

"We believe playing as an independent in football is the best solution for our university, our student-athletes and our program," Nellis told the board.

....

Spear said the Bowl Championship Series will pay Idaho $100,000 per year as an FBS independent, the same deal that Army and Navy get.


I wonder how that compares to the payout from the I-AA playoffs? Oh that's right...you have to pay to participate in those.

One other thing not mentioned in this article (but I believe mentioned in the OP article) is that payouts for guarantee games are MUCH higher to I-A teams than I-AA teams. Another source of revenue.


My hat's off to them for giving it a go at independent. Those who say they have no market are of course incorrect. Their market is the state of Idaho. They are the state's lone public flagship, research university.

I hope beyond hope that they can hold out as indy for 2013 and 2014. More changes *will* come in the I-A conference realignment landscape ...it's just a matter of if they will come in time or not for Idaho to receive the lifeline offer to join the Mountain West or another established I-A conference - or perhaps if the WAC can be saved with I-AA moveups.

Otherwise, there's no sense continuing the program. Just to have to crawl back to those Big Sky jerks who are on their knees praying right now for Idaho to have to come crawling back to them, just so they can laugh and ridicule them?

No friggin' way. Burn it to the ground, before that happens. That's what I'd do.


By the way, where's my credit for correctly predicting that this is what Idaho would do? Yeah...didn't think so. This is AGS, after all.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

How is that different from what I said a page or two ago?

They are most certainly in a defeated state and can not do anything on their own for sure but what he said is pretty much right on isn't it?

Did I disagree with you? Is it still not comical? I rest my case. :D

[Screamin_Eagle174]

One other thing not mentioned in this article (but I believe mentioned in the OP article) is that payouts for guarantee games are MUCH higher to I-A teams than I-AA teams. Another source of revenue.


Hey dip****. The price to get FBS teams to come to Moscow and play in order to meet the minimum (4 FBS, 5 total), is ALSO higher. Another drain of revenue. You have to be one of the most ignorant sumbitches on the interwebs.

[CrazyCat]

You have to be one of the most ignorant sumbitches on the interwebs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2gev9fNb0E&feature=related

[MplsBison]

Hey dip****. The price to get FBS teams to come to Moscow and play in order to meet the minimum (4 FBS, 5 total), is ALSO higher. Another drain of revenue. You have to be one of the most ignorant sumbitches on the interwebs.

New Mexico St is one. That's free.

For the other three or four, home and homes or 2-for-1's.

Done.

[Ginsbach]

My hat's off to them for giving it a go at independent. Those who say they have no market are of course incorrect. Their market is the state of Idaho. They are the state's lone public flagship, research university.


Honestly, shut the **** up. Do you live here? Do you have any idea what Idaho is like? I've got colleagues that work at Idaho and Boise State, and for you to pull this garbage is just inane. The market for the state of Idaho is dominated by Boise State. Absolutely dominated. Idaho is big up by Moscow, and ISU has fans in the eastern part of the state. Make no mistake, though - the state as a whole is dominated by Boise State fans.

[MplsBison]

Honestly, shut the **** up. Do you live here? Do you have any idea what Idaho is like? I've got colleagues that work at Idaho and Boise State, and for you to pull this garbage is just inane. The market for the state of Idaho is dominated by Boise State. Absolutely dominated. Idaho is big up by Moscow, and ISU has fans in the eastern part of the state. Make no mistake, though - the state as a whole is dominated by Boise State fans.

I've posted the numbers. ID St and Boise St are junior colleges compared to U of ID when it comes to research expenditures. I don't care about anything else, as far as academics are concerned.

U of ID *is* the state's flagship public campus. If you're a high school graduate in the state of Idaho and want to earn a bachelor's degree and then pursue graduate work within the state, then U of ID is largely your only option. Not to say that you can't go out of state, of course. But if you are loyal to the state that your parents paid taxes to for so many years, then it is what it is.

[dgtw]

Just what does all that have to do with Idaho being FCS or FBS? They are not going to find enough schools willing to fly to Idaho to play in a dinky stadium to meet the annual required number of games.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just what does all that have to do with Idaho being FCS or FBS? They are not going to find enough schools willing to fly to Idaho to play in a dinky stadium to meet the annual required number of games.

It has nothing to do with anything being discussed so unless you are looking for someone to dunk on and posterize on the board it's best to just let him spin in his own little world.

Let me put it to you this way. If FBS home games were inaccessible then Idaho wouldn't have a choice but to not host FBS teams and that is very likely to happen.

[danefan]

So App State to the CAA?

[MplsBison]

Just what does all that have to do with Idaho being FCS or FBS? They are not going to find enough schools willing to fly to Idaho to play in a dinky stadium to meet the annual required number of games.

It has to do with the state of Idaho being the market for the U of ID, which in turn better enables them to get into another conference if a slot opens up.

But to the point at hand, it sounds like they're already planning on 12 games for 2013 and obviously then 4 of those must be home games. We know Northern Illinois and New Mexico St. Just need to find two more.

If you're an AD trying to schedule non-conference games and you need home games in 2014 and prefer a winnable, I-A team --- why wouldn't you schedule Idaho?

[lmckay92]

Just a thought:

The NCAA hasn't been enforcing any rules regarding FCS/FBS membership including the attendance requirements but excluding the rules on needing a conference invite to move up and the moratorium on move ups. If Idaho really wants to remain an FBS school and is willing to pay whatever that costs them, I doubt they'll get forced down regardless of how many home games they play against FBS schools, etc. The massive red line that is going to be their athletic budget will probably force them to join the BSC all sports... but... I don't believe anyone has ever dropped since the split.

[Tod]

Just a thought:

The NCAA hasn't been enforcing any rules regarding FCS/FBS membership including the attendance requirements but excluding the rules on needing a conference invite to move up and the moratorium on move ups. If Idaho really wants to remain an FBS school and is willing to pay whatever that costs them, I doubt they'll get forced down regardless of how many home games they play against FBS schools, etc. The massive red line that is going to be their athletic budget will probably force them to join the BSC all sports... but... I don't believe anyone has ever dropped since the split.

Even if the NCAA didn't enforce the rules (and I believe they will), how happy will Vandals fans be with three or four home games a year?

[JSUBison]

Even if the NCAA didn't enforce the rules (and I believe they will), how happy will Vandals fans be with three or four home games a year?

Also, what FBS school would schedule Idaho with the chances of Idaho becoming FCS? Lot's of FBS schools will schedule FCS teams, but if Idaho were to become FCS, some teams wouldn't be too happy about having a 2nd FCS team appear on their schedule due to Idaho dropping. Only one FCS counts for the Bowl game.

[dgtw]

I read on the WAC board (yeah, I know) Idaho and NMSU may play a home and home in 2013. Has there been a time in recent history where teams have played each other twice in one year? Excluding bowl game or playoff rematches, of course.

[UNH Fanboi]

I read on the WAC board (yeah, I know) Idaho and NMSU may play a home and home in 2013. Has there been a time in recent history where teams have played each other twice in one year? Excluding bowl game or playoff rematches, of course.

UNH and Northeastern played each other twice in 1998. I think there were some extenuating circumstances like a late cancellation, but I'm not sure. I think a few SWAC and MEAC teams have had repeats too, but I'm not sure. Don't know if it's been done on the FBS level.

[PAllen]

Not to piss on my Big Sky pals' parade here, but I don't see this necessarily as a step towards coming back to the fold. Quite the opposite. Home and home arrangements with NM State, Utah State, Wyoming, and a couple of MAC schools or the recent TX move ups won't be that hard a scheduling feet. Add in a regional FCS and there's your home slate. The remainder of the away slate will be FBS money games. That schedule may not be a money loser (depending on the FBS money game payouts). I'm not saying it's a long term solution (they are obviously looking at changes in the coming years), but it is better for them than dropping down. Most FCS programs would kill for a 12,000 average in a 16K stadium.

[bojeta]

I read on the WAC board (yeah, I know) Idaho and NMSU may play a home and home in 2013. Has there been a time in recent history where teams have played each other twice in one year? Excluding bowl game or playoff rematches, of course.

Excluding DII, DIII, NAIA as well, because in the GNAC DII conference for example, each team plays each other twice.

[eaglewraith]

I've posted the numbers. ID St and Boise St are junior colleges compared to U of ID when it comes to research expenditures. I don't care about anything else, as far as academics are concerned.

U of ID *is* the state's flagship public campus. If you're a high school graduate in the state of Idaho and want to earn a bachelor's degree and then pursue graduate work within the state, then U of ID is largely your only option. Not to say that you can't go out of state, of course. But if you are loyal to the state that your parents paid taxes to for so many years, then it is what it is.

Except that Boise State has ~twice the number of undergrads and more postgrads. I'm pretty sure tax dollars go to Boise State as a public university as well, so your line about being loyal to the state is out the door. Moscow is also considered rural, which makes sense when it's easier to get to hell than Moscow. It's pretty obvious in terms of enrollment and game attendance that no one is really going there.

I agree that Idaho is going to do all it can to stay in FBS, and this is the best option they have at the moment. However, don't be delusional to think that University of Idaho really rules the roost in that state. It might have more research money, but with less students they better be doing something.

If someone wants to get into the Idaho media market, they'll go after Boise State. Oh wait the Big East already did that.

[frozennorth]

I've posted the numbers. ID St and Boise St are junior colleges compared to U of ID when it comes to research expenditures. I don't care about anything else, as far as academics are concerned.

U of ID *is* the state's flagship public campus. If you're a high school graduate in the state of Idaho and want to earn a bachelor's degree and then pursue graduate work within the state, then U of ID is largely your only option. Not to say that you can't go out of state, of course. But if you are loyal to the state that your parents paid taxes to for so many years, then it is what it is.

I wonder if people made that sort of idiotic argument about ndsu and UND in the 80's. **** changes fast, as has happened in both ND and idaho.

[MplsBison]

I read on the WAC board (yeah, I know) Idaho and NMSU may play a home and home in 2013. Has there been a time in recent history where teams have played each other twice in one year? Excluding bowl game or playoff rematches, of course.

It's not a rumor, it's a done deal. Read the link I posted.

So two of the four FBS home games that Idaho must schedule in 2013 are already known: NMSU and Northern Illinois.

[MplsBison]

Even if the NCAA didn't enforce the rules (and I believe they will), how happy will Vandals fans be with three or four home games a year?

They'll have five home games a year. Four I-A and a regional I-AA.

Not ideal, but good enough in the short term.

[MplsBison]

Not to piss on my Big Sky pals' parade here, but I don't see this necessarily as a step towards coming back to the fold. Quite the opposite. Home and home arrangements with NM State, Utah State, Wyoming, and a couple of MAC schools or the recent TX move ups won't be that hard a scheduling feet. Add in a regional FCS and there's your home slate. The remainder of the away slate will be FBS money games. That schedule may not be a money loser (depending on the FBS money game payouts). I'm not saying it's a long term solution (they are obviously looking at changes in the coming years), but it is better for them than dropping down. Most FCS programs would kill for a 12,000 average in a 16K stadium.

xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx

Absolutely correct.

And mind you that payouts from big schools to I-A teams are often closer to a million per game than half a million. That's significant money that they'll be getting with 5 payday games a year.

[MplsBison]

Except that Boise State has ~twice the number of undergrads and more postgrads. I'm pretty sure tax dollars go to Boise State as a public university as well, so your line about being loyal to the state is out the door. Moscow is also considered rural, which makes sense when it's easier to get to hell than Moscow. It's pretty obvious in terms of enrollment and game attendance that no one is really going there.

I agree that Idaho is going to do all it can to stay in FBS, and this is the best option they have at the moment. However, don't be delusional to think that University of Idaho really rules the roost in that state. It might have more research money, but with less students they better be doing something.

If someone wants to get into the Idaho media market, they'll go after Boise State. Oh wait the Big East already did that.

It's no surprise that Boise has more students. They're trying to be the main undergraduate center in the state. Nothing wrong with that, someone's gotta pay the bills. As far as having more post grads, yes - probably most of them are in professional programs like MBA, MAcc, MPA, M.A. in Education, etc. Not master's or PhD's in hard academic disciplines. But like I said, it pays the bills.

I don't doubt that Boise is the most popular football team in the state and has been for a while: people love winners. Idahoans are no different.

Nonetheless, I am not incorrect. The state's public flagship university can always, correctly consider the entire state as its market. Obviously, people in every corner of Idaho can and should consider the University of Idaho to be "their university".

[Tod]

xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx xsmileyclapx

Absolutely correct.

And mind you that payouts from big schools to I-A teams are often closer to a million per game than half a million. That's significant money that they'll be getting with 5 payday games a year.

Five payday games the first year, maybe. After that, they have to start repaying their home/home commitments. Three money games after that, unless (since it's a very short-term solution) they promise some return games for 2015 or later.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Five payday games the first year, maybe. After that, they have to start repaying their home/home commitments. Three money games after that, unless (since it's a very short-term solution) they promise some return games for 2015 or later.

+1 Also, who's going to do 1-for-1 big-money deal for a struggling independent school? Idaho and NMSU have no leverage, and everyone knows it.

This has a ripple effect, too. Why sign a 2-for-1 if you're not sure where Idaho will be in three years?

Also, how are they going to get games in November? There simply aren't any openings then. Ask FCS schools.

Like I said before, for a season or maybe two it's doable, but after that it seems impossible.

[MplsBison]

Five payday games the first year, maybe. After that, they have to start repaying their home/home commitments. Three money games after that, unless (since it's a very short-term solution) they promise some return games for 2015 or later.

Ok fine, four payday games. That's still $2-4million for the season. Not too shabby and way more than they could ever make as an I-AA team.

Two games with NMSU (home and home in the season).

The remaining six games are split evenly as 3 home/home each of away/home and home/away arrangements. That gives them their 4 FBS home games.


Very doable for two seasons. And if they even want, they can try for 3 payday games and 1 I-AA guarantee home game.

After that, something either becomes available in the MWC, the WAC is somehow revived or you drop the program. Those are the only viable options.

[MplsBison]

Out of this whole mess, I still can't believe that folks are simply going to let the WAC's autobid and tournament credit's die. That money is going to evaporate into thin air. The MWC isn't getting the money (even though Utah St and Nevada earned it) and they aren't getting two autobids, that much I can guarantee.

I guess once the MWC gets to 16 teams eventually the cycle can happen all over again and teams can split off and reform the WAC or a new conference in the west.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ok fine, four payday games. That's still $2-4million for the season. Not too shabby and way more than they could ever make as an I-AA team.

Four million wouldn't even cover Montana's football expenses for the year, and it certainly won't cover Idaho's, which would be on flights for eight away contests. One of which is against NMSU, which is a guaranteed money loser in every sense of the word, with flights and no guarantee money.

At what point does pride get swallowed and the Vandals do what's best for their school and drop down to FCS? Without even factoring scholarship savings, instantly two of those away games become bus trips, possibly three, and they get two more home games.

Unfortunately no college president seems to want to see reality, and they'll hemorrhage football money for two years to pretend they're viable at the FBS level, affecting all their athletic programs across the board for perhaps a decade or more, then drop down anyway. Sad.

Even taking football out of this for a second, without a WAC the Big Sky is the only conference that makes sense for all their other sports. So they'll likely end up there by default.

[Grizalltheway]

It's no surprise that Boise has more students. They're trying to be the main undergraduate center in the state. Nothing wrong with that, someone's gotta pay the bills. As far as having more post grads, yes - probably most of them are in professional programs like MBA, MAcc, MPA, M.A. in Education, etc. Not master's or PhD's in hard academic disciplines. But like I said, it pays the bills.

I don't doubt that Boise is the most popular football team in the state and has been for a while: people love winners. Idahoans are no different.

Nonetheless, I am not incorrect. The state's public flagship university can always, correctly consider the entire state as its market. Obviously, people in every corner of Idaho can and should consider the University of Idaho to be "their university".

As you always do when you start getting your *** handed to you in a discussion, you're bringing up facts completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic. This isn't about which school in Idaho has the best academic rep. or does the most PhD level research. It's about football. You know, butts in the seats, TV revenue, big-time donors, all that ****.

(Some) Idaho alums care about the team, that's it. Every other casual fan in the state would watch a Boise game before a Vandals one, period. ****, there are probably more Oregon fans/alums in the state than U of I.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The argument is not and has not been if they can do this in the short term. It is possible to get the next couple of years ironed out and it will be a lot of work with a ton of concessions to make it happen but it can and will likely be done.

I don't even know how that is the argument. If they do make it happen and they are bleeding worse than they are already, which the will be, then the decision will be made to get the house in order and rejoin the Sky or drop the program. The longer they wait, the deeper the hole gets, the stronger the opposition will become for them to just drop football.

They have never been an FBS program. The other conferences and even their own former conference mates recognize that and that is why the door was closed on them in the movement. It could open again but it seems unlikely.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

As you always do when you start getting your *** handed to you in a discussion, you're bringing up facts completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic. This isn't about which school in Idaho has the best academic rep. or does the most PhD level research. It's about football. You know, butts in the seats, TV revenue, big-time donors, all that ****.

(Some) Idaho alums care about the team, that's it. Every other casual fan in the state would watch a Boise game before a Vandals one, period. ****, there are probably more Oregon fans/alums in the state than U of I.

Excellent post and hitting the nail on the head on the head with this guy. It's the same thing every time.

[MplsBison]

Four million wouldn't even cover Montana's football expenses for the year, and it certainly won't cover Idaho's, which would be on flights for eight away contests. One of which is against NMSU, which is a guaranteed money loser in every sense of the word, with flights and no guarantee money.

At what point does pride get swallowed and the Vandals do what's best for their school and drop down to FCS? Without even factoring scholarship savings, instantly two of those away games become bus trips, possibly three, and they get two more home games.

Unfortunately no college president seems to want to see reality, and they'll hemorrhage football money for two years to pretend they're viable at the FBS level, affecting all their athletic programs across the board for perhaps a decade or more, then drop down anyway. Sad.

Even taking football out of this for a second, without a WAC the Big Sky is the only conference that makes sense for all their other sports. So they'll likely end up there by default.

Idaho to the Big Sky is a no-brainer for non-football sports if Boise gets into the Big West. I'm not convinced they will, but we'll see. If Boise leaves then the WAC is officially dead and Idaho will join the Big Sky for non-football.

Payday games cover travel costs for the away team, so it's only 4 away legs of home/home deals that they'll have to eat. They've been doing that in the WAC anyway.

I actually see total costs for Idaho being right about the same. So then you factor in the revenue from the payday games and the four home games (which should be higher attendance since there's one four in the season) and I think they'll be fine for these two years.


If at the end of the two year experiment there's still no opening in the MWC , the WAC can't be revived or it just wouldn't be reasonable to keep trudging on as an independent (after reviewing the financials during the two years) - then you kill football at Idaho. Done.

You want to talk about cost savings for the university, there you go. That will save a lot of costs.

[MplsBison]

As you always do when you start getting your *** handed to you in a discussion, you're bringing up facts completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic. This isn't about which school in Idaho has the best academic rep. or does the most PhD level research. It's about football. You know, butts in the seats, TV revenue, big-time donors, all that ****.

(Some) Idaho alums care about the team, that's it. Every other casual fan in the state would watch a Boise game before a Vandals one, period. ****, there are probably more Oregon fans/alums in the state than U of I.

And as per usual AGS, you transpose my simple argument, which you couldn't understand, into a different argument that you do understand and then try to pick a fight with me on that.

I don't and haven't disagreed with anything you said.

Simply....the entire state of Idaho is the market for the U of ID because they are the state's flagship public, research university. Shouldn't be too hard to understand.

[MplsBison]

The argument is not and has not been if they can do this in the short term. It is possible to get the next couple of years ironed out and it will be a lot of work with a ton of concessions to make it happen but it can and will likely be done.

I don't even know how that is the argument. If they do make it happen and they are bleeding worse than they are already, which the will be, then the decision will be made to get the house in order and rejoin the Sky or drop the program. The longer they wait, the deeper the hole gets, the stronger the opposition will become for them to just drop football.

They have never been an FBS program. The other conferences and even their own former conference mates recognize that and that is why the door was closed on them in the movement. It could open again but it seems unlikely.

Conference realignment is always about taking the best schools that are available. If Idaho is the only available team left for the MWC to take and a school is needed, they'll be taken. That's what they're hoping for in the next two years.


Otherwise, absolutely - drop the program. No sense wasting any more money. Lots of costs associated with football that can just be saved.

[Grizalltheway]

And as per usual AGS, you transpose my simple argument, which you couldn't understand, into a different argument that you do understand and then try to pick a fight with me on that.

I don't and haven't disagreed with anything you said.

Simply....the entire state of Idaho is the market for the U of ID because they are the state's flagship public, research university. Shouldn't be too hard to understand.

Are you trying to say that there are Idaho fans who live in every part of the state? Well no ****. There's a Griz poster here who lives in Japan, does that mean Japan is part of UM's target market?

Sure, UI can claim the entire state as their geographical market, and so can Boise. But Boise wins the numbers game (you know, what really matters), and it ain't even close. Your average sports fan doesn't give a **** about which school puts more money into African swallow research, they want to watch entertaining and winning football...which UI doesn't even come close to offering.

[Tod]

Conference realignment is always about taking the best schools that are available. If Idaho is the only available team left for the MWC to take and a school is needed, they'll be taken. That's what they're hoping for in the next two years.


Otherwise, absolutely - drop the program. No sense wasting any more money. Lots of costs associated with football that can just be saved.

So you honestly believe UI would drop football before returning to the BSC?

[MplsBison]

Are you trying to say that there are Idaho fans who live in every part of the state? Well no ****. There's a Griz poster here who lives in Japan, does that mean Japan is part of UM's target market?

Sure, UI can claim the entire state as their geographical market, and so can Boise. But Boise wins the numbers game (you know, what really matters), and it ain't even close. Your average sports fan doesn't give a **** about which school puts more money into African swallow research, they want to watch entertaining and winning football...which UI doesn't even come close to offering.

Still haven't and don't disagree with anything you said.

And I'm still correct about Idaho and the whole state being their market. Their market isn't just Moscow.

[MplsBison]

So you honestly believe UI would drop football before returning to the BSC?

The argument for Idaho dropping down a level in competition to the Big Sky is to save costs. If money was no issue, they could be an independent and get four I-A teams to play in Moscow every year, easily.

Well, doesn't dropping the program save costs even further?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So you honestly believe UI would drop football before returning to the BSC?

Here's what I think Tod. UI has several groups as it pertains to Football.
1. They have the FBS crowd that think they can sustain
2. They have the group that knows that a move to the BSC with the regional games is the best way to cut costs and make a go of it for the health of the entirre Athletic Dpt.
3. They also have a group that would be happy to see football just dropped completely because of the hardships that FBS has brought and the way it has been choking the school overall.

It's not likely that a whole lot of group 1 moves into group 2 but if the timing is right then groupl 3 could see the beinefits all around and think that the move to the BSC is a good one. I'm not talking about fans in general but more about the people that make things happen in the school and the government.

If they drain too much money in the wait then it may just move to the "**** it we're done with this completely". I don't think it will get to that point though because then they get to listen to ISU fans and BSU fans telling them that they get to tune in and watch their teams playing some football in the fall.

Idaho would be able to keep football out of the red with a move to the BSC and very likely make it a good way to bring in some money to support the other sports if they were to move to the BSC. It would not be the giant vacuum it currently is.

[I Bleed Purple]

Here's what I think Tod. UI has several groups as it pertains to Football.
1. They have the FBS crowd that think they can sustain
2. They have the group that knows that a move to the BSC with the regional games is the best way to cut costs and make a go of it for the health of the entirre Athletic Dpt.
3. They also have a group that would be happy to see football just dropped completely because of the hardships that FBS has brought and the way it has been choking the school overall.

It's not likely that a whole lot of group 1 moves into group 2 but if the timing is right then groupl 3 could see the beinefits all around and think that the move to the BSC is a good one. I'm not talking about fans in general but more about the people that make things happen in the school and the government.

If they drain too much money in the wait then it may just move to the "**** it we're done with this completely". I don't think it will get to that point though because then they get to listen to ISU fans and BSU fans telling them that they get to tune in and watch their teams playing some football in the fall.

Idaho would be able to keep football out of the red with a move to the BSC and very likely make it a good way to bring in some money to support the other sports if they were to move to the BSC. It would not be the giant vacuum it currently is.

You forgot the group that thinks they're better than FCS/that FCS is beneath them and would rather kill the program than play in FCS again. There are plenty of blowhards that will cancel season tickets because they're playing Southern Utah instead of San Jose State.

It's not unreasonable to want to be FBS. The "FBS or die" crowd, though, is quite elitist and idealistic especially given the state of their facilities and attendance.

[Tod]

The argument for Idaho dropping down a level in competition to the Big Sky is to save costs. If money was no issue, they could be an independent and get four I-A teams to play in Moscow every year, easily.

Well, doesn't dropping the program save costs even further?

How compliant are they with Title IX? Dropping 85 schollies could have a devastating impact on women's sports.

Dropping 22 would probably just be helpful in that regard.

UM will begin women's softball soon, and even that won't bring us into full compliance.

[Tod]

Here's what I think Tod. UI has several groups as it pertains to Football.
1. They have the FBS crowd that think they can sustain
2. They have the group that knows that a move to the BSC with the regional games is the best way to cut costs and make a go of it for the health of the entirre Athletic Dpt.
3. They also have a group that would be happy to see football just dropped completely because of the hardships that FBS has brought and the way it has been choking the school overall.

It's not likely that a whole lot of group 1 moves into group 2 but if the timing is right then groupl 3 could see the beinefits all around and think that the move to the BSC is a good one. I'm not talking about fans in general but more about the people that make things happen in the school and the government.

If they drain too much money in the wait then it may just move to the "**** it we're done with this completely". I don't think it will get to that point though because then they get to listen to ISU fans and BSU fans telling them that they get to tune in and watch their teams playing some football in the fall.

Idaho would be able to keep football out of the red with a move to the BSC and very likely make it a good way to bring in some money to support the other sports if they were to move to the BSC. It would not be the giant vacuum it currently is.

Good points. If they do drop football, it just opens up that many more players for the Griz (and others) to recruit.

Won't happen, though, IMO.

[MplsBison]

Here's what I think Tod. UI has several groups as it pertains to Football.
1. They have the FBS crowd that think they can sustain
2. They have the group that knows that a move to the BSC with the regional games is the best way to cut costs and make a go of it for the health of the entirre Athletic Dpt.
3. They also have a group that would be happy to see football just dropped completely because of the hardships that FBS has brought and the way it has been choking the school overall.

It's not likely that a whole lot of group 1 moves into group 2 but if the timing is right then groupl 3 could see the beinefits all around and think that the move to the BSC is a good one. I'm not talking about fans in general but more about the people that make things happen in the school and the government.

If they drain too much money in the wait then it may just move to the "**** it we're done with this completely". I don't think it will get to that point though because then they get to listen to ISU fans and BSU fans telling them that they get to tune in and watch their teams playing some football in the fall.

Idaho would be able to keep football out of the red with a move to the BSC and very likely make it a good way to bring in some money to support the other sports if they were to move to the BSC. It would not be the giant vacuum it currently is.

What are Idaho St's financials in the Big Sky?

[MplsBison]

How compliant are they with Title IX? Dropping 85 schollies could have a devastating impact on women's sports.

Dropping 22 would probably just be helpful in that regard.

UM will begin women's softball soon, and even that won't bring us into full compliance.

I don't follow you. Your claim is that if they drop 85 men's scholarships that women's athletics will be harmed?

[slostang]

I don't follow you. Your claim is that if they drop 85 men's scholarships that women's athletics will be harmed?

Title IX works both ways. If the dropped 85 men's scholarships they would then have to cut women's scholarships to stay in compliance. So yes it would hurt women's athletics if hey dropped football.

[lmckay92]

Does Title IX go both ways? Do both mens and womens scholarships have to match?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does Title IX go both ways? Do both mens and womens scholarships have to match?

Yes, because then men could be the "underrepresented sex" in terms of Title IX.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Title IX works both ways. If the dropped 85 men's scholarships they would then have to cut women's scholarships to stay in compliance. So yes it would hurt women's athletics if hey dropped football.

Which of course is another reason that people are gonna want some football as opposed to dropping it in total.

[Mr. C]

Title IX works both ways. If the dropped 85 men's scholarships they would then have to cut women's scholarships to stay in compliance. So yes it would hurt women's athletics if hey dropped football.

There is a proportionality test, also. If, say, 55 percent of the student body is female, than 55 percent of the scholarships can go to women athletes. It doesn't have to be 50-50.

[Mr. C]

The argument for Idaho dropping down a level in competition to the Big Sky is to save costs. If money was no issue, they could be an independent and get four I-A teams to play in Moscow every year, easily.

Well, doesn't dropping the program save costs even further?

Yeah, like is going to be easy to get four teams from FBS to want to come to Moscow.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

There is a proportionality test, also. If, say, 55 percent of the student body is female, than 55 percent of the scholarships can go to women athletes. It doesn't have to be 50-50.

Idaho is actually 55/45 in favor of the males. So that hurts the women even worse.

I do know that there is a proportionality thing but generally it is so close I think most people just settle on the 50/50 thing for simplicity of the concept.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Idaho is actually 55/45 in favor of the males. So that hurts the women even worse.

That's real interesting. So it would absolutely affect Title IX, as their women's sports would almost certainly be "overrepresented" if they dropped football.

[dgtw]

I wonder how New Mexico State will fair as an independent? They have annual games with UTEP and New Mexico and with playing Idaho twice each year, they are guaranteed two home games every year. Throw in an FCS game and they only need to find two more each year. It would probably be a lot easier to get teams to go to New Mexico, especially late in the year, than to Idaho.

[darell1976]

Ok fine, four payday games. That's still $2-4million for the season. Not too shabby and way more than they could ever make as an I-AA team.

Two games with NMSU (home and home in the season).

The remaining six games are split evenly as 3 home/home each of away/home and home/away arrangements. That gives them their 4 FBS home games.


Very doable for two seasons. And if they even want, they can try for 3 payday games and 1 I-AA guarantee home game.

After that, something either becomes available in the MWC, the WAC is somehow revived or you drop the program. Those are the only viable options.

So who is Idaho going to get to come to Moscow to watch these home and homes? Bowling Green, Ohio since it seems they love MAC teams. Maybe the NCAA will start enforcing that 15,000 avg attendance rule to get rid of Idaho out of the FBS and start to send a message to all teams not following this rule (Eastern Michigan). Idaho in no way will fill the Kibbie Dome if there is NO bowl game for them to get since they will be in the Indy league. Idaho will go bankrupt and drop football or fans will demand they return to the Big Sky.

[Thundar]

So who is Idaho going to get to come to Moscow to watch these home and homes? Bowling Green, Ohio since it seems they love MAC teams. Maybe the NCAA will start enforcing that 15,000 avg attendance rule to get rid of Idaho out of the FBS and start to send a message to all teams not following this rule (Eastern Michigan). Idaho in no way will fill the Kibbie Dome if there is NO bowl game for them to get since they will be in the Indy league. Idaho will go bankrupt and drop football or fans will demand they return to the Big Sky.

Doubt fans will demand a return to the BSC, but you are correct with dropping the program

[dakotadan]

Would the Big Sky let them stay if they dropped football?

Yes, the BSC "old guard" will welcome them back even without football. Montana, MSU, EWU, Weber, ISU, etc. would love to see them back for BBall alone. Those were special rivalries in all sports.
And NoDak would love them in the conference due to their academics.

Grand Forks Herald: UND would welcome Idaho into Big Sky with open arms (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/243048/)

[dakotadan]

Their market is the state of Idaho. They are the state's lone public flagship, research university.


U of ID *is* the state's flagship public campus.


Nonetheless, I am not incorrect. The state's public flagship university can always, correctly consider the entire state as its market. Obviously, people in every corner of Idaho can and should consider the University of Idaho to be "their university".


Simply....the entire state of Idaho is the market for the U of ID because they are the state's flagship public, research university. Shouldn't be too hard to understand.

You may want to inform the Idaho Board of Higher Education that you have declared UofI the flagship. Apparently they disagree.

State Board of Education removes 'flagship' from University of Idaho's mission (http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/02/16/1996968/state-board-of-education-removes.html)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You may want to inform the Idaho Board of Higher Education that you have declared UofI the flagship. Apparently they disagree.

State Board of Education removes 'flagship' from University of Idaho's mission (http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/02/16/1996968/state-board-of-education-removes.html)

Watch how he spins and ducks his way out of this with his own fantasy of what constitutes a flagship even though it flies directly in the face of what those in that particular system say.

[darell1976]

Doubt fans will demand a return to the BSC, but you are correct with dropping the program

I wouldn't be so sure on that. They had more success probably in the BSC than their entire time in the FBS. Indy football for Idaho is a joke and if they can only get FCS teams and maybe a Bowling Green type team fans will want UI to play Montana, MSU, and Eastern Washington for a conference title (and a shot at a National Title).

[MplsBison]

Title IX works both ways. If the dropped 85 men's scholarships they would then have to cut women's scholarships to stay in compliance. So yes it would hurt women's athletics if hey dropped football.

Ok, I get the argument.

The law was created to provide more participation opportunities in varsity sports for women. So if Idaho runs its department out of compliance the other way, is anyone going to threaten a lawsuit? I doubt it.

But say they are gung-ho about staying in compliance. Then fine, so be it - cut some women's sports. They do it to men's sports all the time.

So then the worst case scenario would be a lawsuit that basically says Idaho should sponsor more men's sports for no other reason that they'll then be able to stay in compliance while providing the same number of opportunities to women. Even in that case, ok fine then add men's soccer and men's swimming. They already have the facilities in place for those in women's.


Any way you slice it, the school saves more money by dropping the team.

[MplsBison]

Yeah, like is going to be easy to get four teams from FBS to want to come to Moscow.

Location is irrelevant from the other team's point of view. As long as it's an I-A team who is going to provide a return home game at their own cost, then the other team could be from Antarctica.

[MplsBison]

I wonder how New Mexico State will fair as an independent? They have annual games with UTEP and New Mexico and with playing Idaho twice each year, they are guaranteed two home games every year. Throw in an FCS game and they only need to find two more each year. It would probably be a lot easier to get teams to go to New Mexico, especially late in the year, than to Idaho.

Both Idaho and NMSU should be able to obtain four I-A home games playing as independents indefinitely. Certainly for 2013 & 2014.

Hopefully something breaks lose once the new I-A playoff goes live in '14.

[MplsBison]

So who is Idaho going to get to come to Moscow to watch these home and homes? Bowling Green, Ohio since it seems they love MAC teams. Maybe the NCAA will start enforcing that 15,000 avg attendance rule to get rid of Idaho out of the FBS and start to send a message to all teams not following this rule (Eastern Michigan). Idaho in no way will fill the Kibbie Dome if there is NO bowl game for them to get since they will be in the Indy league. Idaho will go bankrupt and drop football or fans will demand they return to the Big Sky.

If they can't make it financially in I-A, then they'll never make it in I-AA. Drop the program at that point.

And there's no reason Idaho can't go to a bowl game as an independent.

[darell1976]

Both Idaho and NMSU should be able to obtain four I-A home games playing as independents indefinitely. Certainly for 2013 & 2014.

Hopefully something breaks lose once the new I-A playoff goes live in '14.

Wishful thinking on both counts.

[MplsBison]

You may want to inform the Idaho Board of Higher Education that you have declared UofI the flagship. Apparently they disagree.

State Board of Education removes 'flagship' from University of Idaho's mission (http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/02/16/1996968/state-board-of-education-removes.html)

Wow. I was unaware of how bad BSU's control was getting. You got me there.

Obviously their president is correct, there's no doubt UofI is the academic flagship in every sense of the word. They just had the misfortune of not being located in the population center of the state and therefore a junior college grew like a tumor and took over everything.

Not too dissimilar from Arizona St, another non-flagship school that has been able to gain similar public perception as being equal with the state's flagship via really nothing more than being located in the state's population center and cancerous growth.

[slostang]

Location is irrelevant from the other team's point of view. As long as it's an I-A team who is going to provide a return home game at their own cost, then the other team could be from Antarctica.

Wrong. The fact that it cost more and is harder to get to will have teams hesitant to schedule a home and home with Idaho. Now throw in the chance they may drop to FCS in football and it is going to be twice as hard. I think Idaho shot themselves in the foot when they threw out going back to the FfCS as a 4th option.

[MplsBison]

Wishful thinking on both counts.

And you wish for them to fail, because you believe it will help your new conference.

I'm here to tell you that the reality is either sustaining in I-A or dropping the program.

[MplsBison]

Wrong. The fact that it cost more and is harder to get to will have teams hesitant to schedule a home and home with Idaho. Now throw in the chance they may drop to FCS in football and it is going to be twice as hard. I think Idaho shot themselves in the foot when they threw out going back to the FfCS as a 4th option.

Of course it's not difficult to get there...no more than it is to get to Spokane or Washington State University, for that matter. When you charter an airplane, it can fly into any airport with a long enough airstrip. These teams don't fly commercial flights. This is the big leagues.

Then the only cost is fuel, which is per mile so no different for a team from the MAC than playing in Utah, and the cost of landing at the airport, which will be cheap because it will be a smaller airport with less traffic.


They've committed to two years, 2013 and 2014 - probably for the specific reason of negotiating home/home contracts. But, of course, if something goes very bad and they're unable to fulfill the return trip in 2014 then the school will be obligated to pay a buyout.

The other team would get the money and then get to schedule a different team anyway. Nothing really lost.

[bincitysioux]

Wow. I was unaware of how bad BSU's control was getting. You got me there.

Obviously their president is correct, there's no doubt UofI is the academic flagship in every sense of the word. They just had the misfortune of not being located in the population center of the state and therefore a junior college grew like a tumor and took over everything.

Not too dissimilar from Arizona St, another non-flagship school that has been able to gain similar public perception as being equal with the state's flagship via really nothing more than being located in the state's population center and cancerous growth.

Just like in the state of North Dakota too!

[MplsBison]

Just like in the state of North Dakota too!

Ha! Good one.

Of course you know that's an apples/oranges comparison and the statement was tounge-in-cheek.


For those of you who aren't catching on, Boise was a junior college, Arizona state was a normal school and NDSU was an 1862 land-grant. Land grants (of the 1862 variety) are unquestionably flagships in their states while schools founded as junior colleges or normal schools almost always can never reach that status.

[bincitysioux]

Of course you know that's an apples/oranges comparison and the statement was tounge-in-cheek.


For those of you who aren't catching on, Boise was a junior college, Arizona state was a normal school and NDSU was an 1862 land-grant. Land grants (of the 1862 variety) are unquestionably flagships in their states while schools founded as junior colleges or normal schools almost always can never reach that status.

If that's what makes your feel better......................

[McCowboys]

Title IX aside, I do believe if they drop football they would need to drop some of the women's sports due to financial reasons. Football is the only true money generating sport at many schools. Without football revenue, many of these schools would find it difficult to fund all the women's sports which tend not to generate revenue in most cases.

[MplsBison]

If that's what makes your feel better......................

It does make me feel better!

Number one, for being correct, and number two for having that knowledge and being able to educate people on the nuances of public, higher education systems.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Ha! Good one.

Of course you know that's an apples/oranges comparison and the statement was tounge-in-cheek.


For those of you who aren't catching on, Boise was a junior college, Arizona state was a normal school and NDSU was an 1862 land-grant. Land grants (of the 1862 variety) are unquestionably flagships in their states while schools founded as junior colleges or normal schools almost always can never reach that status.

The North Dakota deal is weird. NDSU (still a very solid school) might be the "flagship" school but UND is the one with the better academic reputation. In fact, the school has a tremendous reputation even in the northeast which is why it was on my short list of grad schools.

[Grizalltheway]

The North Dakota deal is weird. NDSU (still a very solid school) might be the "flagship" school but UND is the one with the better academic reputation. In fact, the school has a tremendous reputation even in the northeast which is why it was on my short list of grad schools.

Wouldn't have anything to do with teh hockeys, would it? xreadx

[darell1976]

And you wish for them to fail, because you believe it will help your new conference.

I'm here to tell you that the reality is either sustaining in I-A or dropping the program.

No I don't wish any school to fail. But Idaho is heading that route if they go the Indy League way. 12 games to schedule (11 if you don't include New Mexico St and 10 if you play NMSU twice). Lets say they play NMSU twice so Idaho is going to try to schedule 10 games and maybe 4 more home games so that leaves 5 home and 7 away (or 4 home and 6 away if they play NMSU twice). So 5 home games for UI would be New Mexico State, I am guessing FCS team A, and that leaves 3 FBS teams. And then away you have NMSU, and 6 others on the road. The teams that won't schedule UI will be BCS conference teams and teams that think they have a shot at a National Title because of Strength of Schedule. Also like some posters have mentioned....who are they going to get later in the year when other teams are deep into the middle of conference play? Most teams have 8 or 9 conference games that leaves 3 to 4 OOC games. Who is going to waste one on Idaho? Boise State...nope! USC or UCLA...nope and nope. Notre Dame? BYU? Army? Navy? I guess they could try to get them on the schedule but good luck getting ND to come to Moscow. Idaho will have as much of a scheduling problem as teams in the GWFC did except those teams had 4 games already on the slate and only had to fill 7 where UI would have to fill 12. Dropping football would crush fans and the school...look at UNO they dropped football that left basketball and hockey, and their basketball team (if anything like the NCC) isn't going to fair well in DI. Their only hope is hockey and that can only last for so long (teams in hockey do fall into droughts). UNO is not a basketball powerhouse or a hockey one either, they were good at football and it was sad that Trev Alberts crushed it so UN-L can have the monopoly of DI football. Fans of UI would rather see their Vandals play in the BSC than drop it alltogether. Why do you think their only option is either DI-Indy or drop football. Some FBS teams (D-IA at the time) has dropped down a level...its not the end of the world.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Wouldn't have anything to do with teh hockeys, would it? xreadx

I think a lot has to do with their flight school and location in the Upper Midwest.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ok, I get the argument.

The law was created to provide more participation opportunities in varsity sports for women. So if Idaho runs its department out of compliance the other way, is anyone going to threaten a lawsuit? I doubt it.

People have, and people have won.

[Laker]

The University of North Dakota was established in 1883, six years before statehood. It is the oldest and largest university in the state. North Dakota State University was established in 1890. I can find no claim that it and not UND is the flagship institution in the state.

[dgtw]

UNO was a wrestling powerhouse and Alberts squashed that program as well.

Navy will be in the Big East in a few years and will have at least eight league games, plus they play Army, Air Force and Notre Dame every year, so that would leave them with one OOC game, provided the Big East doesn't go with a nine game schedule. So that eliminates them as an opponent.

More leagues are going to nine game schedules, which eliminates a lot of potential OOC games for Idaho. Plus, schools aren't going to want to play a road game in a 15,000 seat stadium and Idaho fans aren't likely to travel very well to a far off location.

[darell1976]

UNO was a wrestling powerhouse and Alberts squashed that program as well.

Navy will be in the Big East in a few years and will have at least eight league games, plus they play Army, Air Force and Notre Dame every year, so that would leave them with one OOC game, provided the Big East doesn't go with a nine game schedule. So that eliminates them as an opponent.

More leagues are going to nine game schedules, which eliminates a lot of potential OOC games for Idaho. Plus, schools aren't going to want to play a road game in a 15,000 seat stadium and Idaho fans aren't likely to travel very well to a far off location.

^^^^^^^^ This!!!

[NoCoDanny]

I'm sympathetic to Idaho's dilemma except for the fact they moved up 15+ years ago with a 15K stadium and from what I can gather (correct me if I'm wrong here) have done very little if anything to upgrade facilities to what would be considered even the bare minimum for FBS. Bare minimum being a erector set of steel bleachers on 2 sides of a field to get to a 30K capacity.

If they really wanted FBS to work where was the commitment?

If they did move down they would be on a very very short list of programs that have, West Texas State comes to mind and I don't know who else.

I'm neutral on the topic in the grand scheme of things I don't care either way what they do but I will find it interesting to see how it plays out.

If I had to predict I think they'll end up moving down to the FCS with New Mexico State somehow working it's way into the Mountain West... they have much better facilities and a solid basketball tradition similar to Utah State which is making the MWC move of course.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm sympathetic to Idaho's dilemma except for the fact they moved up 15+ years ago with a 15K stadium and from what I can gather (correct me if I'm wrong here) have done very little if anything to upgrade facilities to what would be considered even the bare minimum for FBS. Bare minimum being a erector set of steel bleachers on 2 sides of a field to get to a 30K capacity.

If they really wanted FBS to work where was the commitment?

If they did move down they would be on a very very short list of programs that have, West Texas State comes to mind and I don't know who else.

I'm neutral on the topic in the grand scheme of things I don't care either way what they do but I will find it interesting to see how it plays out.

If I had to predict I think they'll end up moving down to the FCS with New Mexico State somehow working it's way into the Mountain West... they have much better facilities and a solid basketball tradition similar to Utah State which is making the MWC move of course.

They have not done anything because they don't have the money to do so. The FBS move did not provide the upswing in revenue, fan support, and did not increase revenue from ticket prices. Their ticket prices have been less for a season than about 1/2 of the BSC.

They are an FCS team whether they want to pretend they are FBS or not and the money proves that. They are already taking from the students in fees and so forth for the budget they currently try to maintain. I can't remember the exact amount but something like 60-70% of the athletic budget comes from welfare from the students and the school's general fund.

[Vitojr130]

The University of North Dakota was established in 1883, six years before statehood. It is the oldest and largest university in the state. North Dakota State University was established in 1890. I can find no claim that it and not UND is the flagship institution in the state.

And I can find no claim stating UND is the flagship and not NDSU...

UND may be the oldest, but for the last decade or so it has not been the largest. Also, for being the supposed flagship university, you don't see any "UND Extension Services" buildings in every major city in the state... In my mind, NDSU is the flagship of the state. But that is just me...

[UNDColorado]

You are right, it is just you.

[MSUBobcat]

And I can find no claim stating UND is the flagship and not NDSU...

UND may be the oldest, but for the last decade or so it has not been the largest. Also, for being the supposed flagship university, you don't see any "UND Extension Services" buildings in every major city in the state... In my mind, NDSU is the flagship of the state. But that is just me...

Not sure what this flagship nonsense has to do with Idaho going independent but for your 1st post on AGS, you should at least do some research. xreadx In the last decade NDSU has only had a larger fall enrollment than UND 3 years ('08, '09, and '10). As far as I can tell those are the only 3 years NDSU has ever had a larger enrollment, but maybe in a year prior to '97 they did. Last year UND regained the greater enrollment with its largest enrollment ever with 14,697, while NDSU went down 8 students from the previous year (and largest enrollment to date) to 14,399. NDSU source - http://www.ndsu.edu/fileadmin/registrar/enrollment/enrollsummary.pdf UND source - http://und.edu/university-relations/student-profile/index.cfm

In addition to having a consistently larger enrollment and being the older instituition, UND has the Law and Medical Schools, as well as the renowned aerospace program. NDSU has agriculture and what else that UND doesn't? Extension Services (primarily dealing w/ ag from what I gather from the About Us page at http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension/about-us)? I just don't see that as being enough to call NDSU the "flagship" university of the state.

[Grizalltheway]

And I can find no claim stating UND is the flagship and not NDSU...

UND may be the oldest, but for the last decade or so it has not been the largest. Also, for being the supposed flagship university, you don't see any "UND Extension Services" buildings in every major city in the state... In my mind, NDSU is the flagship of the state. But that is just me...

Maybe because UND isn't a land grant/ag school?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

And I can find no claim stating UND is the flagship and not NDSU...

UND may be the oldest, but for the last decade or so it has not been the largest. Also, for being the supposed flagship university, you don't see any "UND Extension Services" buildings in every major city in the state... In my mind, NDSU is the flagship of the state. But that is just me...

Just a note outside of this post.

You better go answer the email sent to you from the admin a couple days ago.

[344Johnson]

And I can find no claim stating UND is the flagship and not NDSU...

UND may be the oldest, but for the last decade or so it has not been the largest. Also, for being the supposed flagship university, you don't see any "UND Extension Services" buildings in every major city in the state... In my mind, NDSU is the flagship of the state. But that is just me...

Both of them are.


Not sure what this flagship nonsense has to do with Idaho going independent but for your 1st post on AGS, you should at least do some research. xreadx In the last decade NDSU has only had a larger fall enrollment than UND 3 years ('08, '09, and '10). As far as I can tell those are the only 3 years NDSU has ever had a larger enrollment, but maybe in a year prior to '97 they did. Last year UND regained the greater enrollment with its largest enrollment ever with 14,697, while NDSU went down 8 students from the previous year (and largest enrollment to date) to 14,399. NDSU source - http://www.ndsu.edu/fileadmin/registrar/enrollment/enrollsummary.pdf UND source - http://und.edu/university-relations/student-profile/index.cfm

In addition to having a consistently larger enrollment and being the older instituition, UND has the Law and Medical Schools, as well as the renowned aerospace program. NDSU has agriculture and what else that UND doesn't? Extension Services (primarily dealing w/ ag from what I gather from the About Us page at http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension/about-us)? I just don't see that as being enough to call NDSU the "flagship" university of the state.

NDSU Engineering is (civil especially) better than UND's, each school offers a type or two I think that the other doesn't. We have the pharmacy school, a similar business college etc. UND Law and UND med aren't exactly the definition of prestigious by any means anyway. Regardless, both schools have a purpose and do things that the other does not. Nothing wrong with that. I am very fine with the education is am receiving from NDSU and have little doubt that I will lose out on getting a job because I went to NDSU and the other guy went to UND.

Back on point. Sucks to be Idaho.

[MSUBobcat]

Both of them are.



NDSU Engineering is (civil especially) better than UND's, each school offers a type or two I think that the other doesn't. We have the pharmacy school, a similar business college etc. UND Law and UND med aren't exactly the definition of prestigious by any means anyway. Regardless, both schools have a purpose and do things that the other does not. Nothing wrong with that. I am very fine with the education is am receiving from NDSU and have little doubt that I will lose out on getting a job because I went to NDSU and the other guy went to UND.

Back on point. Sucks to be Idaho.

Well said, sir. I feel the same about the MT schools. Some programs better at one than the other. Some programs offered at one, not the other and vice versa. PS, since both UND and NDSU provide good educations, I think you meant you doubt you will lose out on a job. xnodx

[Grizalltheway]

Both of them are.



NDSU Engineering is (civil especially) better than UND's, each school offers a type or two I think that the other doesn't. We have the pharmacy school, a similar business college etc. UND Law and UND med aren't exactly the definition of prestigious by any means anyway. Regardless, both schools have a purpose and do things that the other does not. Nothing wrong with that. I am very fine with the education is am receiving from NDSU and have little doubt that I will lose out on getting a job because I went to NDSU and the other guy went to UND.

Back on point. Sucks to be Idaho.

And us is all purdy proud of ya.

[DJKyR0]

NDSU Engineering is (civil especially) better than UND's, each school offers a type or two I think that the other doesn't. We have the pharmacy school, a similar business college etc. UND Law and UND med aren't exactly the definition of prestigious by any means anyway. Regardless, both schools have a purpose and do things that the other does not. Nothing wrong with that. I am very fine with the education is am receiving from NDSU and have little doubt that I will lose out on getting a job because I went to NDSU and the other guy went to UND.

Back on point. Sucks to be Idaho.

344. Stop. *****ing. Posting.

Christ, dude. Seriously.

[MplsBison]

The North Dakota deal is weird. NDSU (still a very solid school) might be the "flagship" school but UND is the one with the better academic reputation. In fact, the school has a tremendous reputation even in the northeast which is why it was on my short list of grad schools.

UND and NDSU are both flagships in ND. Same in any state that has a separate 1862 land grant university.

[MplsBison]

No I don't wish any school to fail. But Idaho is heading that route if they go the Indy League way. 12 games to schedule (11 if you don't include New Mexico St and 10 if you play NMSU twice). Lets say they play NMSU twice so Idaho is going to try to schedule 10 games and maybe 4 more home games so that leaves 5 home and 7 away (or 4 home and 6 away if they play NMSU twice). So 5 home games for UI would be New Mexico State, I am guessing FCS team A, and that leaves 3 FBS teams. And then away you have NMSU, and 6 others on the road. The teams that won't schedule UI will be BCS conference teams and teams that think they have a shot at a National Title because of Strength of Schedule. Also like some posters have mentioned....who are they going to get later in the year when other teams are deep into the middle of conference play? Most teams have 8 or 9 conference games that leaves 3 to 4 OOC games. Who is going to waste one on Idaho? Boise State...nope! USC or UCLA...nope and nope. Notre Dame? BYU? Army? Navy? I guess they could try to get them on the schedule but good luck getting ND to come to Moscow. Idaho will have as much of a scheduling problem as teams in the GWFC did except those teams had 4 games already on the slate and only had to fill 7 where UI would have to fill 12. Dropping football would crush fans and the school...look at UNO they dropped football that left basketball and hockey, and their basketball team (if anything like the NCC) isn't going to fair well in DI. Their only hope is hockey and that can only last for so long (teams in hockey do fall into droughts). UNO is not a basketball powerhouse or a hockey one either, they were good at football and it was sad that Trev Alberts crushed it so UN-L can have the monopoly of DI football. Fans of UI would rather see their Vandals play in the BSC than drop it alltogether. Why do you think their only option is either DI-Indy or drop football. Some FBS teams (D-IA at the time) has dropped down a level...its not the end of the world.

Actually, who are the teams that have dropped from I-A to I-AA since the formation of those sub-divisions?

UNO has zero comparison to U of I and even so, UNO is doing just fine in DI. Great hockey team that plays in a fantastic venue and was invited to the new conference. No one in Nebraska will miss their football team.

It would be better if Idaho could keep playing football, of course. They've completed updates to their facilities. But if they can't make it financially at the I-A level, they won't do any better at the I-AA level.

They already have two "BCS" schools on the schedule. They'll get home/home with teams like Norther Illinois for 2013/2014. Then we'll see what happens at that time.

[MplsBison]

I'm sympathetic to Idaho's dilemma except for the fact they moved up 15+ years ago with a 15K stadium and from what I can gather (correct me if I'm wrong here) have done very little if anything to upgrade facilities to what would be considered even the bare minimum for FBS. Bare minimum being a erector set of steel bleachers on 2 sides of a field to get to a 30K capacity.

If they really wanted FBS to work where was the commitment?

If they did move down they would be on a very very short list of programs that have, West Texas State comes to mind and I don't know who else.

I'm neutral on the topic in the grand scheme of things I don't care either way what they do but I will find it interesting to see how it plays out.

If I had to predict I think they'll end up moving down to the FCS with New Mexico State somehow working it's way into the Mountain West... they have much better facilities and a solid basketball tradition similar to Utah State which is making the MWC move of course.

Stadium capacity has nothing to do with moving to DI. You should know this very well as a UNC fan.

They wanted to offer 85 scholarships in football. That's it. They've been doing that and will continue to do that for the foreseeable future.

[MplsBison]

344. Stop. *****ing. Posting.

Christ, dude. Seriously.

Who the **** are you? Go piss off back to back to the 'ville.

[MSUBobcat]

Who the **** are you? Go piss off back to back to the 'ville.

I believe DJKyR0 was referring to the fact that in talking about the quality of NDSU's education compared to UND's he made some grammatical errors and went on to say he "has little doubt" he will lose out on a job to a UND grad if it came down to it. Then you come on and make the typo above in bold in your complex 2 sentence post bashing DJ. But I understood what 344 meant and I know proofreading your own post would take WAY too long with your reading skills. MPLS "T...t...t...he. Oh, the hell with it. Post quick reply."

[Grizalltheway]

I believe DJKyR0 was referring to the fact that in talking about the quality of NDSU's education compared to UND's he made some grammatical errors and went on to say he "has little doubt" he will lose out on a job to a UND grad if it came down to it. Then you come on and make the typo above in bold in your complex 2 sentence post bashing DJ. But I understood what 344 meant and I know proofreading your own post would take WAY too long with your reading skills. MPLS "T...t...t...he. Oh, the hell with it. Post quick reply."

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

Excellent stuff my bobcat brother!

[TheBisonator]

I believe DJKyR0 was referring to the fact that in talking about the quality of NDSU's education compared to UND's he made some grammatical errors and went on to say he "has little doubt" he will lose out on a job to a UND grad if it came down to it. Then you come on and make the typo above in bold in your complex 2 sentence post bashing DJ. But I understood what 344 meant and I know proofreading your own post would take WAY too long with your reading skills. MPLS "T...t...t...he. Oh, the hell with it. Post quick reply."

I'm not gonna get into the argument, I was a visual arts major. :D

[darell1976]

Actually, who are the teams that have dropped from I-A to I-AA since the formation of those sub-divisions?

UNO has zero comparison to U of I and even so, UNO is doing just fine in DI. Great hockey team that plays in a fantastic venue and was invited to the new conference. No one in Nebraska will miss their football team.

It would be better if Idaho could keep playing football, of course. They've completed updates to their facilities. But if they can't make it financially at the I-A level, they won't do any better at the I-AA level.

They already have two "BCS" schools on the schedule. They'll get home/home with teams like Norther Illinois for 2013/2014. Then we'll see what happens at that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_FBS_independent_schools

Colgate
Holy Cross
Illinois St
Indiana St
Richmond
Tennessee St
Villanova
William and Mary

All these teams were DI Independents....look at your future Idaho if you go the Indy route.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Ivy League dropped en masse in 1982-1983 I believe as well, as well as certain MAC schools (Akron leaps to mind).

[darell1976]

The Ivy League dropped en masse in 1982-1983 I believe as well, as well as certain MAC schools (Akron leaps to mind).

Mpls just doesn't get where idaho is going. And Indy ball is not the answer and neither is dropping it alltogether. Big Sky is the only option the Vandals should be looking at.

[JSUBison]

Looking at the WAC forum, some Idaho fans think the MWC could still be an option in a few years due to conference shuffling. If the MWC would need to add a couple of teams, I think they would not add Idaho. They wouldn't even consider them. Idaho has a serious problem with it's lack of fanbase, facilities, market, location, etc. None of these can be fixed anytime soon. I'd imagine schools like Montana would be much more attractive to the MWC, and Wichita State as well if they can get off the pot and get football back.

[Laker]

Same conference, same problem, different team- does anyone have any knowledge of what New Mexico State is looking at? Idaho has the Big Sky option- could the Aggies get in, or would they be looking at the Southland? CUSA doesn't want them. I can't see them lasting as an independent either.

[superman7515]

Same conference, same problem, different team- does anyone have any knowledge of what New Mexico State is looking at? Idaho has the Big Sky option- could the Aggies get in, or would they be looking at the Southland? CUSA doesn't want them. I can't see them lasting as an independent either.

They have a decent chance of getting back into the Sun Belt. They left on good terms and with South Alabama coming on in a couple of seasons, it will allow the Sun Belt to split into divisions and have a championship game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Same conference, same problem, different team- does anyone have any knowledge of what New Mexico State is looking at? Idaho has the Big Sky option- could the Aggies get in, or would they be looking at the Southland? CUSA doesn't want them. I can't see them lasting as an independent either.

Personally, if they go FCS I think Southland, but they have a different issue than Idaho. I think their big rivalry game is with New Mexico, who is in the MWC, and dropping to FCS would mean at a bare minimum that rivalry changes. I wonder if they would beg and plead to get into the MWC for that very reason.

[Laker]

Personally, if they go FCS I think Southland, but they have a different issue than Idaho. I think their big rivalry game is with New Mexico, who is in the MWC, and dropping to FCS would mean at a bare minimum that rivalry changes. I wonder if they would beg and plead to get into the MWC for that very reason.

I think that the Lobos wanted them but the rest of the conference didn't. They also have a natural rival with UTEP but they didn't add any footprint to CUSA.

I wonder how much longer this game of musical chairs will go on- two, three more seasons? There is always some change but this has been seismic.

[Laker]

They have a decent chance of getting back into the Sun Belt. They left on good terms and with South Alabama coming on in a couple of seasons, it will allow the Sun Belt to split into divisions and have a championship game.

I had forgotten that NM State, Utah State and Idaho had been in the Sun Belt. That could work.

[chrisattsu]

They have a decent chance of getting back into the Sun Belt. They left on good terms and with South Alabama coming on in a couple of seasons, it will allow the Sun Belt to split into divisions and have a championship game.

Not really. Karl (the Commish) pushed for them and Texas State to be added. The SBC schools didn't like NMST because they pushed the footprint too far west. They want to keep a geographically compact footprint. There was even discussion that they may pull out of Texas and focus on a more "Southeastern" footprint before extending an invite to TXST

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

I had forgotten that NM State, Utah State and Idaho had been in the Sun Belt. That could work.

I don't know if Idaho has much of a shot at the Sun Belt, from what I remember, the SBC didn't seem to want Idaho, even though Benson came over as commissioner from the WAC.

[Laker]

I don't know if Idaho has much of a shot at the Sun Belt, from what I remember, the SBC didn't seem to want Idaho, even though Benson came over as commissioner from the WAC.

Sorry Uncle Rico, I should have said NM State rather than both them and Idaho. But it sounds like the Sunbelt might not want them back either.

Incarnate Word has an announcement today and Abilene Christian says that they have an invite from the Southland.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Looking at the WAC forum, some Idaho fans think the MWC could still be an option in a few years due to conference shuffling. If the MWC would need to add a couple of teams, I think they would not add Idaho. They wouldn't even consider them. Idaho has a serious problem with it's lack of fanbase, facilities, market, location, etc. None of these can be fixed anytime soon. I'd imagine schools like Montana would be much more attractive to the MWC, and Wichita State as well if they can get off the pot and get football back.

Even worse for Idaho. They have much less upside or potential. Look at some of the FCS teams in line to move up and compare them to Idaho. If you are the MAC/Sunbelt which way you choose to go considering the pool of talent out there and how badly some of these FCS tams have surpassed Idaho with fan support, facilities, etc. while not having the advantages Idaho has already being FBS.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Sorry Uncle Rico, I should have said NM State rather than both them and Idaho. But it sounds like the Sunbelt might not want them back either.

I feel like both schools haven't put the best product on the field for such a long time that it would most likely be best for both to regroup and move back a couple spaces and try to rebuild a little bit. If you can begin to build fan support and pride it can go a long way to help your on field product improve.

[dgtw]

Is there an exit fee for leaving the WAC? How will Idaho afford that? Or is the fee null and void since the WAC no longer sponsors football?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Is there an exit fee for leaving the WAC? How will Idaho afford that? Or is the fee null and void since the WAC no longer sponsors football?

I suppose Idaho and NM could pay the fee and then divvy it up amongst themselves.

[MplsBison]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_FBS_independent_schools

Colgate
Holy Cross
Illinois St
Indiana St
Richmond
Tennessee St
Villanova
William and Mary

All these teams were DI Independents....look at your future Idaho if you go the Indy route.

Thanks for the info! So as I thought, there really has never been a case of an established I-A team that was a member of a conference who then had to move down to I-AA.

Of course, they're apples/oranges to Idaho's situation. Everyone single one was caught by the new sub-divisions, tried out I-A and then moved down in the early 80's. Idaho was in I-AA for many years then moved up to I-A where they've been an established team in the sub-division for several years. No good reason for them to move down.

[MplsBison]

Looking at the WAC forum, some Idaho fans think the MWC could still be an option in a few years due to conference shuffling. If the MWC would need to add a couple of teams, I think they would not add Idaho. They wouldn't even consider them. Idaho has a serious problem with it's lack of fanbase, facilities, market, location, etc. None of these can be fixed anytime soon. I'd imagine schools like Montana would be much more attractive to the MWC, and Wichita State as well if they can get off the pot and get football back.

Idaho's market is almost 1.6 million and they're located in the same place as Washington State, a member of the Pac 12. Doesn't seem that bad to me.

MWC would be the ideal place for both Idaho and New Mexico St, especially with Boise St leaving on bad terms with the conference (can't make the conference screw Idaho over) and New Mexico wanted NMSU in the conference with them.


Montana would be more attractive, but will they decide to move up? So far, no. WSU will never have a football program any time soon, certainly not by 2014.

[MplsBison]

I don't know if Idaho has much of a shot at the Sun Belt, from what I remember, the SBC didn't seem to want Idaho, even though Benson came over as commissioner from the WAC.

Yep Benson turned his back on them. Probably got paid off by Boise to do it.

[MplsBison]

I feel like both schools haven't put the best product on the field for such a long time that it would most likely be best for both to regroup and move back a couple spaces and try to rebuild a little bit. If you can begin to build fan support and pride it can go a long way to help your on field product improve.

I fail to see how moving down a level in competition from I-A to I-AA will excite and energize the fanbase. Also, they'll never be able to get back up to I-A even if they go on to win I-AA championships. If conferences won't take them now as an I-A team, they aren't going to take them as an I-AA team.

It's I-A or bust for Idaho football. Non-football in the BS.

[Mr. C]

Location is irrelevant from the other team's point of view. As long as it's an I-A team who is going to provide a return home game at their own cost, then the other team could be from Antarctica.

You obviously have ZERO understanding of how scheduling works in D-I circles (both FCS and FBS). There are some schools that always struggle to get games because of their location. As an AD, I wouldn't want Idaho to come to my stadium, because the Vandals won't sell tickets for me. The opposing fans don't want to see Idaho play.

[MplsBison]

You obviously have ZERO understanding of how scheduling works in D-I circles (both FCS and FBS). There are some schools that always struggle to get games because of their location. As an AD, I wouldn't want Idaho to come to my stadium, because the Vandals won't sell tickets for me. The opposing fans don't want to see Idaho play.

Fans come to watch the home team play. If you need a strong visiting team to sell your tickets, you won't make it.

[Tod]

You obviously have ZERO understanding of how scheduling works in D-I circles (both FCS and FBS). There are some schools that always struggle to get games because of their location. As an AD, I wouldn't want Idaho to come to my stadium, because the Vandals won't sell tickets for me. The opposing fans don't want to see Idaho play.

From a team perspective, rather than a fan perspective, wouldn't Idaho make for a nice home/home for lower-tier FBS schools?

I mean, look at a Kent State or a ULM that really wants a bowl game. That's two FBS games in two years that are winnable.

For a middle-of-the-road team, if you assume four conference wins in a season, an FCS team (which could be a loss), maybe a money game or two, I don't see why Idaho would be a bad choice.

I guess I don't understand why that wouldn't help the Vandals rather than hurt them.

[dgtw]

They are both fairly winnable games, but I'd imagine it would be easier for New Mexico State to get a home game than Idaho. I mean, where would you rather spend the weekend in November?

[darell1976]

Idaho must have the smallest stadium/dome in the FBS its not like the Vandals are going to make a lot of money on ticket sales and concessions. At least in a conference you can get money from tv deals etc. But being an Indy team that is going to hurt. If they came back to the BSC at least they could get a piece of the pie.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From a team perspective, rather than a fan perspective, wouldn't Idaho make for a nice home/home for lower-tier FBS schools?

I mean, look at a Kent State or a ULM that really wants a bowl game. That's two FBS games in two years that are winnable.

For a middle-of-the-road team, if you assume four conference wins in a season, an FCS team (which could be a loss), maybe a money game or two, I don't see why Idaho would be a bad choice.

It's costly in terms of dollars and cents to travel to Moscow, ID for that win, which almost certainly won't be on TV, and which almost certainly wouldn't have money kicked in to sweeten the deal. Wouldn't ULM rather pick Mississippi State, which is a bus trip and has money kicked in?

Teams like Kent State and ULM are hemorrhaging money, and unless the bowl game is a big-money game, is it even worth it to spend the money on the away game victory? Heck, a second FCS home game is way cheaper.

[Tod]

It's costly in terms of dollars and cents to travel to Moscow, ID for that win, which almost certainly won't be on TV, and which almost certainly wouldn't have money kicked in to sweeten the deal. Wouldn't ULM rather pick Mississippi State, which is a bus trip and has money kicked in?

Teams like Kent State and ULM are hemorrhaging money, and unless the bowl game is a big-money game, is it even worth it to spend the money on the away game victory? Heck, a second FCS home game is way cheaper.

But that second FCS game doesn't count toward bowl eligibility.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But that second FCS game doesn't count toward bowl eligibility.

I guess what I'm saying is: what's that nonguaranteed extra win worth to these programs? $500K over 2 years? $1 million? ULM and Kent State simply don't have that money to burn, and the bowl they'd be qualifying for would cost them money, too, above and beyond the money lost in the Idaho series.

It's likely that only the most desperate teams in terms of bowl eligibility would turn to Idaho, with a shot at qualifying at a bowl - and even then not late in the season, when almost everyone is playing important league games. The teams likely to take a flyer on Idaho would be schools like Indiana, Colorado, or Mississippi State who make money hand over fist with their TV deals but would like the extra victory to qualify for ANY bowl.

If I had to handicap it, Colorado would be the most likely to schedule the home-and-home with them. But after that, it's anyone's guess.

[AppMan]

Have not read the entire thread, but did scan the first few pages. I didn't see where anyone addressed the issue of Idaho getting back down to 67 grants before they can play FCS. They obviously can't go without a recruiting class, so they must drop a few each season. It takes about 3 seasons to build up to FBS levels and one could assume it being the same going the other way.

[MplsBison]

It's costly in terms of dollars and cents to travel to Moscow, ID for that win, which almost certainly won't be on TV, and which almost certainly wouldn't have money kicked in to sweeten the deal. Wouldn't ULM rather pick Mississippi State, which is a bus trip and has money kicked in?

Teams like Kent State and ULM are hemorrhaging money, and unless the bowl game is a big-money game, is it even worth it to spend the money on the away game victory? Heck, a second FCS home game is way cheaper.

$100k to travel to Moscow in 2013 and get a free return game from Idaho in 2014, or pay $200k to an FCS team for home games both years?

[AmsterBison]

Have not read the entire thread, but did scan the first few pages. I didn't see where anyone addressed the issue of Idaho getting back down to 67 grants before they can play FCS. They obviously can't go without a recruiting class, so they must drop a few each season. It takes about 3 seasons to build up to FBS levels and one could assume it being the same going the other way.

Well, they could do it in one season by turning full scholarships into partials.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

Thanks for the info! So as I thought, there really has never been a case of an established I-A team that was a member of a conference who then had to move down to I-AA.

Of course, they're apples/oranges to Idaho's situation. Everyone single one was caught by the new sub-divisions, tried out I-A and then moved down in the early 80's. Idaho was in I-AA for many years then moved up to I-A where they've been an established team in the sub-division for several years. No good reason for them to move down.

Agreed, the early 80s moves downward were tied to splitting the division. My understanding was that when they created IAA, most of the schools/conferences playing D2 football but D1 everything else were put in IAA right away while those playing D1 football were given until 82 to decide. In 82, many were then forced into IAA. W&M and the Ivy League lost their lawsuits on the matter while the MAC won thanks the support of the Big 10 who wanted punching bags. My understanding is App State was not going to be forced down like many of the schools listed above, but chose the IAA path breaking with archival ECU who encouraged App to join them in the world of IA independence. Many App fans have been regretting that choice ever since.

[Catbooster]

Thanks for the info! So as I thought, there really has never been a case of an established I-A team that was a member of a conference who then had to move down to I-AA.

Of course, they're apples/oranges to Idaho's situation. Everyone single one was caught by the new sub-divisions, tried out I-A and then moved down in the early 80's. Idaho was in I-AA for many years then moved up to I-A where they've been an established team in the sub-division for several years. No good reason for them to move down.
Hmmm... arguably, established might be a stretch when used to describe Idaho as a FBS team. They have been classified as DI-A/FBS for awhile now, but have never met some of the unenforced requirements such as attendance and have struggled to have any success at that level.

Also, they were a member of a conference, but are no longer.

I would argue that they are very similar to the teams that initially tried I-A when the subdivisions started - they tried it and realized that their priorities and goals better fit the I-AA subdivision. Idaho just did it later - and many haven't yet come to that realization.

IMO Idaho should go back to the Big Sky - nice try but it didn't work out in FBS. The academic argument - flagship research university and all that - is BS. The Ivy's, etc. don't seem to be considered lesser institutions for being FCS. It's a matter of resources and priorities. I fail to see why being among the worst teams in FBS is more prestigious than being a competetive FCS program.

[MplsBison]

Agreed, the early 80s moves downward were tied to splitting the division. My understanding was that when they created IAA, most of the schools/conferences playing D2 football but D1 everything else were put in IAA right away while those playing D1 football were given until 82 to decide. In 82, many were then forced into IAA. W&M and the Ivy League lost their lawsuits on the matter while the MAC won thanks the support of the Big 10 who wanted punching bags. My understanding is App State was not going to be forced down like many of the schools listed above, but chose the IAA path breaking with archival ECU who encouraged App to join them in the world of IA independence. Many App fans have been regretting that choice ever since.

Interesting! Thanks for posting this info.

Makes perfect sense about how it worked out and just further solidifies the fact that there's never really been a legit move down from I-A to I-AA, let alone a team that's ever moved up to I-A from I-AA and then moved back down later.


Yeah in a sense I can see that it was bad not to stay with ECU, but on the other hand you've built the brand up to an unprecedented level not only in your conference but really in the history of I-AA. Assuming there's room for you to get in there (to I-A) you'll do just fine, though not at the level of ECU.

[MplsBison]

Hmmm... arguably, established might be a stretch when used to describe Idaho as a FBS team. They have been classified as DI-A/FBS for awhile now, but have never met some of the unenforced requirements such as attendance and have struggled to have any success at that level.

Also, they were a member of a conference, but are no longer.

I would argue that they are very similar to the teams that initially tried I-A when the subdivisions started - they tried it and realized that their priorities and goals better fit the I-AA subdivision. Idaho just did it later - and many haven't yet come to that realization.

IMO Idaho should go back to the Big Sky - nice try but it didn't work out in FBS. The academic argument - flagship research university and all that - is BS. The Ivy's, etc. don't seem to be considered lesser institutions for being FCS. It's a matter of resources and priorities. I fail to see why being among the worst teams in FBS is more prestigious than being a competetive FCS program.

Why would you argue that?