Would love to see a hybrid CAA-Patriot League football conference....

[centraljerseycat]

Something like Villanova joining up with the Catholic Patriots-G-Town, Fordham & Holy Cross as well Delaware, Richmond, W&M and JMU and whatever 9th school makes sense.....but sadly it will never happen!

[breezy]

Never say never -- because never is a heck of a long time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree that it would be cool, and I actually proposed this not all that long ago: a Patriot/CAA alliance:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/222-revolutionary-thinking-to-save-the-caa

Seems unlikely to happen, but it doesn't seem unachievable either with compromises on both sides.

[mmiller_34]

Hybrid conferences are awesome! xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

1. As long as the PL holds on to the Ivy Index, this is a non-starter. I have never understood why Center Valley simply says "We trust our member institutions to make its own admissions decisions" and leave it at that. Bucknell is not going to become Binghamton anytime soon.

2. If JMU leaves at some point, the CAA universe (UR, W&M, Towson, Delaware, Nova, Maine, UNH, with or without URI) looks a little more PL friendly but neither side seems willing to compete on a level field because compromise in some quarters would be considered deemphasis in others.

[Seawolf97]

The AI for the state schools would have to waived or dropped alltogether. State funded schools including the likes of William and Mary, Maine and UNH cannot by law be as selective or reject qualified in state student athletes that may otherwise not make the AI at a Lehigh or HolyCross.

[Engineer86]

The AI for the state schools would have to waived or dropped alltogether. State funded schools including the likes of William and Mary, Maine and UNH cannot by law be as selective or reject qualified in state student athletes that may otherwise not make the AI at a Lehigh or HolyCross.

However, a compromise would be to have the AI apply to out of state athletes. Getting into Delaware for a non-athlete PA kid is no small feat, and state schools are not under the same obligation to out of state students.

That said, i wiould prefer the AI go way. Many top sports schools see do be known for quality academics.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

However, a compromise would be to have the AI apply to out of state athletes. Getting into Delaware for a non-athlete PA kid is no small feat, and state schools are not under the same obligation to out of state students.

That said, i wiould prefer the AI go way. Many top sports schools see do be known for quality academics.

I agree with you when it comes to the quality of out of state applicants at UNH, Maine, UD etc. I'm guessing, on average, the typical out of state student at UNH or UD would get into at least ONE PL school. Since UNH and ME relies very little on in-state recruits I think the AI could work in some capacity.

[bluehenbillk]

I'm not for it. I have a strong feeling the great majority of Blue Hen fans would not support such a move either. In a time when other schools are taking steps forward, this would be a step backwards for our program.

[henfan]

Though UD briefly flirted with the nascent Colonial Conference back in the early '80's, at lot has changed since that time. I really don't think there's any chance of this happening at Delaware, though some academicians on campus might love it.

A move like this would be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a big competitive step backwards by Blue Hen fans. The UD has already begun to struggle selling FCS FB and a move like that would likely set attendance back even further.

The UD is said to be nearing the end of a silent $50M fund-raising campaign (soon to go public) for football stadium & facility enhancements. Don't think PL FB is on the agenda. In any case, UD will likely stay in the CAA until/unless they are forced to reclassify.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Though UD briefly flirted with the nascent Colonial Conference back in the early '80's, at lot has changed since that time. I really don't think there's any chance of this happening at Delaware, though some academicians on campus might love it.

A move like this would be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a big competitive step backwards by Blue Hen fans. The UD has already begun to struggle selling FCS FB and a move like that would likely set attendance back even further.

The UD is said to be nearing the end of a silent $50M fund-raising campaign (soon to go public) for football stadium & facility enhancements. Don't think PL FB is on the agenda. In any case, UD will likely stay in the CAA until/unless they are forced to reclassify.

What happens if the power in Northeast FCS football starts to balance back out? It's only been the last 7-8 years that the CAA has really seperated from the pack. While scholarships are not the magic potion, the best of the PL might once again equal the best of the CAA. From 1998 until 2005'ish the leagues top teams were pretty even.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

A CAA FB conference without Delaware and JMU in a few years would be a Patriot League without the AI and medical-only redshirt policy. Whatever Georgetown does, the other six have facilities, history and ambition to compete. I think that Georgetown has the chops, too, just not the facilities

Towson was in the PL, had the AI. I was in Europe for much of that era-- how did that work?

[RichH2]

Not well for T St.

[RichH2]

I wonder which PL tem will get the most benefit from schollies? LU currently at th top, Gate or HC with their D 1 history , Pards or BU simply need it more. Rams already know how much schollies helped them. GU can watch with the FIOS crew in the press box.

[UNH Fanboi]

While scholarships are not the magic potion, the best of the PL might once again equal the best of the CAA. From 1998 until 2005'ish the leagues top teams were pretty even.

Not really...

Patriot League vs. Atlantic 10 Playoff Records from 1997 to 2006 (existence of the Atlantic 10)
Record; Margin of Loss(-)/Victory(+):
Lehigh 2-3; +1, -6, -27, +3, -1
Colgate 1-3; -21, +12, -40, -34
Holy Cross 0-1; -10
Lafayette 0-2; -14, -21
Fordham 1-1; +5, -14

So the PL's overall playoff record was 4-10, with a single double digit victory and multiple blowout losses.

Also, the A10 had 3 champs during that period and the PL had none.

[Go...gate]

Not really...

Patriot League vs. Atlantic 10 Playoff Records from 1997 to 2006 (existence of the Atlantic 10)
Record; Margin of Loss(-)/Victory(+):
Lehigh 2-3; +1, -6, -27, +3, -1
Colgate 1-3; -21, +12, -40, -34
Holy Cross 0-1; -10
Lafayette 0-2; -14, -21
Fordham 1-1; +5, -14

So the PL's overall playoff record was 4-10, with a single double digit victory and multiple blowout losses.

Also, the A10 had 3 champs during that period and the PL had none.

Actually, a proper comparison might go back a bit further, to the late 1970's and 1980's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not really...

Patriot League vs. Atlantic 10 Playoff Records from 1997 to 2006 (existence of the Atlantic 10)
Record; Margin of Loss(-)/Victory(+):
Lehigh 2-3; +1, -6, -27, +3, -1
Colgate 1-3; -21, +12, -40, -34
Holy Cross 0-1; -10
Lafayette 0-2; -14, -21
Fordham 1-1; +5, -14

So the PL's overall playoff record was 4-10, with a single double digit victory and multiple blowout losses.

Also, the A10 had 3 champs during that period and the PL had none.

Two of those victories were Lehigh wins over the A-10 conference champs, Richmond in 1998 and Hofstra in 2001, though they lost to (national champion) UMass in 1998 and Delaware in 2001. Colgate, of course, beat UMass in 2003 but lost to Delaware for the NC.

Point being that if you went from 1997 to 2003, it was a lot more even than you suggest.

[Tribe4SF]

Point being that if you went from 1997 to 2003, it was a lot more even than you suggest.

Geez, LFN...cherry pick much? You laid out 1998 - 2005ish, and for those years the record was 4-8 with an average differential of -10.4 points.

[CFBfan]

Geez, LFN...cherry pick much? You laid out 1998 - 2005ish, and for those years the record was 4-8 with an average differential of -10.4 points.

Looks like he moved the goal post on you Tribe.....

[henfan]

What happens if the power in Northeast FCS football starts to balance back out? It's only been the last 7-8 years that the CAA has really seperated from the pack. While scholarships are not the magic potion, the best of the PL might once again equal the best of the CAA. From 1998 until 2005'ish the leagues top teams were pretty even.

While the move may help lure a limited number of recruits to PL schools, there's just as good a chance and maybe better that the PL's adding 15 athletically-based scholarships won't change the balance of competitive power between the two leagues. IMO, the profile that CAA FB takes over the next several months and years will have a much bigger impact.

[Seawolf97]

Discussion on the AE Boards about UNH going to the PL which it wont but what if the AI was applied across the board to all incoming students at UNH not just athletes. Best guess UNH's enrollment could drop by as much as 50 %. No state legislature is going to allow that and you would have a taxpayer revolt. So I think any state school is a bad if not impossible fit for the PL. A school like Hofstra though may work .

[danefan]

Discussion on the AE Boards about UNH going to the PL which it wont but what if the AI was applied across the board to all incoming students at UNH not just athletes. Best guess UNH's enrollment could drop by as much as 50 %. No state legislature is going to allow that and you would have a taxpayer revolt. So I think any state school is a bad if not impossible fit for the PL. A school like Hofstra though may work .

I would think the W&M could make it fit. W&M admission stats are very similar to Lehigh.

[Dane96]

Exactly.

What I have been quietly preaching for years; Publics, sans a very select couple of schools, are a bad fit for the PL because of the AI and the legality of rejecting qualified students vs. the general student body.

Unless there is some dramatic change to the AI...you could expect lawsuits from State residents who were rejected because they played a sport and could not meet the AI but otherwise would have gotten into the same school had they not played a sport.

And to ask a school to combat that with an overall increase in admission standards across the board for in-staters, especially in a state like New Hampshire would be political suicide.

W&M, as Danefan pointed out, is a much different scenario. They are already on an in-state admissions standard like those of the PL AI. In NY, the closest school to that would probably be Geneseo or Binghamton, the former a DIII school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Discussion on the AE Boards about UNH going to the PL which it wont but what if the AI was applied across the board to all incoming students at UNH not just athletes. Best guess UNH's enrollment could drop by as much as 50 %. No state legislature is going to allow that and you would have a taxpayer revolt. So I think any state school is a bad if not impossible fit for the PL. A school like Hofstra though may work .

That's simply a ridiculous statement, and shows they don't know how the AI works. The AI measures against the academics against the entire class. There is not an AI that can be applied to the "entire school".

And I think if the PL were in play for small publics, they'd likely only apply to out-of-state athletes.

[Dane96]

LFN....you have completely missed the point. And I most certainly understand tne AI from a recruit and university perspective.

[Franks Tanks]

Exactly.

What I have been quietly preaching for years; Publics, sans a very select couple of schools, are a bad fit for the PL because of the AI and the legality of rejecting qualified students vs. the general student body.

Unless there is some dramatic change to the AI...you could expect lawsuits from State residents who were rejected because they played a sport and could not meet the AI but otherwise would have gotten into the same school had they not played a sport.

And to ask a school to combat that with an overall increase in admission standards across the board for in-staters, especially in a state like New Hampshire would be political suicide.

W&M, as Danefan pointed out, is a much different scenario. They are already on an in-state admissions standard like those of the PL AI. In NY, the closest school to that would probably be Geneseo or Binghamton, the former a DIII school.

How has LFN missed the point? The whole purpose of the AI is to ensure athletes are representative of the student body of the school. The AI may need to revert back to school rather than league specific, but the main purpose is to ensure that athletes hold similar academic credentials as their "regular" student counterparts.

[DFW HOYA]

How has LFN missed the point? The whole purpose of the AI is to ensure athletes are representative of the student body of the school.

In every other admissions decision at these schools, a prospect is reviewed to their own qualifications, not against a bell curve of quantitative scores, but the Ivy Index sumamrizes a kid down to SAT + GPA and that's enough.

Rhetorically speaking, no PL school in their right mind would admit the student body at large to an index (e.g., "I'm sorry, we have too many in the 3.8 and above band"), why athletes? Does the PL not trust their own schools to make admissions decisions?

Which raises this conundrum--if the school as a whole is in the 800-1000 SAT range (e.g., Maine), and athletes were recruited thusly, would the PL be OK with that?

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-university-search/university-of-maine

[Bogus Megapardus]

As this discussion meanders onward, please keep in mind that that two large, very well-known public schools already are full members of the Patriot League.

Given my limited knowledge of how public governance of higher education works, I think Dane96 is absolutely correct. Most state colleges and universities would be unable to square the Patriot AI with their own charter and operating procedures. Application of the AI would lead to legitimate lawsuits.

But if I understand it correctly, some state-affiliated schools (relatively few, actually) operate sufficiently independent of state/legislative control to make application of the AI feasible. Army and Navy are two examples, of course. My understanding is that Delaware, Temple, W&M, Pitt, Michigan and Miami-Ohio also are examples of such state-affiliated (not state-run) schools, as is the public side of Cornell University. I'm sure that there are others.

[bluehenbillk]

Just curious from a OL fan perspective - what would be the upside of taking on CAA schools? IMO it'd just make success on the gridiron that much harder to achieve.

[Engineer86]

Just curious from a OL fan perspective - what would be the upside of taking on CAA schools? IMO it'd just make success on the gridiron that much harder to achieve.

I would say two points for you.

1) I would expect the caliber to improve for those schools committed to being competive over time.
2) More interesting week to week games. I remember many classic Lehigh Delaware games. It looks like this is the only way Delaware will come to the valley. Tradition in that many of the old Yankee conference schools are the teams that we have historically played

[Franks Tanks]

In every other admissions decision at these schools, a prospect is reviewed to their own qualifications, not against a bell curve of quantitative scores, but the Ivy Index sumamrizes a kid down to SAT + GPA and that's enough.

Rhetorically speaking, no PL school in their right mind would admit the student body at large to an index (e.g., "I'm sorry, we have too many in the 3.8 and above band"), why athletes? Does the PL not trust their own schools to make admissions decisions?

Which raises this conundrum--if the school as a whole is in the 800-1000 SAT range (e.g., Maine), and athletes were recruited thusly, would the PL be OK with that?

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-university-search/university-of-maine

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe the PL does not use slotted banding like the Ivies. I agree that the "slots" don't make sense for a school like UNH, but I don't see an issue with a revised AI that simply ensures athletes are representative of their class.

[Franks Tanks]

I would say two points for you.

1) I would expect the caliber to improve for those schools committed to being competive over time.
2) More interesting week to week games. I remember many classic Lehigh Delaware games. It looks like this is the only way Delaware will come to the valley. Tradition in that many of the old Yankee conference schools are the teams that we have historically played

Delaware is coming to Fisher field in a 2-1 deal with Lafayette.

[Engineer86]

Delaware is coming to Fisher field in a 2-1 deal with Lafayette.
What year? Hopefully the valley's finest are not home that weekend, i would stop over to see that. Assuming my LU-LC tailgate spot is open.

I did forget about in acceptance of unequal scheduling. As long as they are a target school teams want to play, they cando that.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just curious from a OL fan perspective - what would be the upside of taking on CAA schools? IMO it'd just make success on the gridiron that much harder to achieve.

I think that you have to look at history over the long run. The small, private schools of the Patriot League play in Division I because they'd always competed against the "University Division" schools, prior to the current NCAA classification system. The PL exists, at least in part, in order to maintain that distinction and privilege for its members while maintaining a semblance of competitive balance internally.

Delaware, Villanova, New Hampshire, Maine, Hofstra, Drexel and UMass, for example, are traditional, long-time rivals of several Patriot schools. The level of competition in the CAA (in football, particular) largely has outpaced the PL over the last 10-15 years. But the PL knows that its members have the wherewithal and institutional inertia to rise to the CAA's level of competition. I don't think you'd have seen scholarships come to the PL were that not the case.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Delaware is coming to Fisher field in a 2-1 deal with Lafayette.

Fisher will sell out, and then some. Get your Coke Zone tickets for that one.

[bluehenbillk]

Delaware is coming to Fisher field in a 2-1 deal with Lafayette.

That rumor has been out them for sometime...like the past 3 years to be exact...you have any years this will happen or will it just keep getting thrown out there until eventually it's correct?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Delaware is coming to Fisher field in a 2-1 deal with Lafayette.


That rumor has been out them for sometime...

Now it's a rumor??? I wish I could say I'm surprised..... xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

What year? Hopefully the valley's finest are not home that weekend, i would stop over to see that. Assuming my LU-LC tailgate spot is open.

I did forget about in acceptance of unequal scheduling. As long as they are a target school teams want to play, they cando that.

We have William & Mary in Easton in 2013, and I believe the Delaware series is expected to start after that. I would guess 2015 would be in Easton with 14 and 16 at Newark.

[Franks Tanks]

That rumor has been out them for sometime...like the past 3 years to be exact...you have any years this will happen or will it just keep getting thrown out there until eventually it's correct?

There was also a rumor that we would be playing William & Mary and that proved accurate. I do not believe it has been officially announced, but Frankie T and I believe our AD have mentioned the upcoming series. I think Frank talked about it in one of his online chat sessions on signing day. Do any of my Pard colleagues have a better memory?

[Bogus Megapardus]

There was also a rumor that we would be playing William & Mary and that proved accurate. I do not believe it has been officially announced, but Frankie T and I believe our AD have mentioned the upcoming series. I think Frank talked about it in one of his online chat sessions on signing day. Do any of my Pard colleagues have a better memory?

Both the AD and Coach T. mentioned tentative plans for the Delaware series during public interviews and during the on-line chat session. Of course the schedules have not been set and all of that could change. But it is not merely a rumor.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Both the AD and Coach T. mentioned tentative plans for the Delaware series during public interviews and during the on-line chat session. Of course the schedules have not been set and all of that could change. But it is not merely a rumor.

You'd be surprised about how it becomes "rumor" when it comes time to cash in that home game. xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Not really...

Patriot League vs. Atlantic 10 Playoff Records from 1997 to 2006 (existence of the Atlantic 10)
Record; Margin of Loss(-)/Victory(+):
Lehigh 2-3; +1, -6, -27, +3, -1
Colgate 1-3; -21, +12, -40, -34
Holy Cross 0-1; -10
Lafayette 0-2; -14, -21
Fordham 1-1; +5, -14

So the PL's overall playoff record was 4-10, with a single double digit victory and multiple blowout losses.

Also, the A10 had 3 champs during that period and the PL had none.

I was referring to the Auto-Bid champ.

In 1997 the A10 Champ Villanova beat Colgate
In 1998 the PL champ Lehigh beat the A10 Champ Richmond.
2000 A10 Co-champ Delaware beat Lehigh in the second round
2001 PL Champ Lehigh beat A10 Champ Hofstra
2002 PL Champ Fordham beat A10 Champ Northeastern
2003 A10 Champ Delaware beat PL Champ Colgate in Title game

[Franks Tanks]

You'd be surprised about how it becomes "rumor" when it comes time to cash in that home game. xlolx

That is why we have contracts.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You'd be surprised about how it becomes "rumor" when it comes time to cash in that home game. xlolx

Granted. However, I think it goes beyond the "rumor" stage when an AD states publicly that an arrangement for a series is in the works, even if the games haven't been contracted. The same would be true, for example, if a prospect is listed on a national service as having been recruited by a particular school, or if a public interview with an AD or an official reports that an institution is "considering other options" about switching its present affiliation to a specific, different conference or conferences. Not a done deal of course, but it's no longer a "rumor," even if it doesn't happen.

[UNH Fanboi]

I was referring to the Auto-Bid champ.

In 1997 the A10 Champ Villanova beat Colgate
In 1998 the PL champ Lehigh beat the A10 Champ Richmond.
2000 A10 Co-champ Delaware beat Lehigh in the second round
2001 PL Champ Lehigh beat A10 Champ Hofstra
2002 PL Champ Fordham beat A10 Champ Northeastern
2003 A10 Champ Delaware beat PL Champ Colgate in Title game

And you also referred to a time range ending in 2005...

2004 A10 Champ Delaware beat PL Champ Lafayette
2005 A10 Champ UNH beat PL Champ Colgate

[Franks Tanks]

And you also referred to a time range ending in 2005...

2004 A10 Champ Delaware beat PL Champ Lafayette
2005 A10 Champ UNH beat PL Champ Colgate

In 2005 PL co-champs Lafayette beat A-10 co-champs Richmond, but that was in the regular season.

[centraljerseycat]

Delaware will never see Fisher Field. KC is too scared to ever play a non-conference FCS on the road. Has he ever??? I think it's in his contract with the school that he has play 3 cupcakes at home.

[pitpen]

Delaware will never see Fisher Field. KC is too scared to ever play a non-conference FCS on the road. Has he ever??? I think it's in his contract with the school that he has play 3 cupcakes at home.

Furman. It's in Villanova's contract that they supply 10% of the fans when they host Delaware and 1% of the fans when they travel to Delaware. Villanova has yet to satisfy the away game requirement.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I never heard about a Towson court case regarding the AI during their stint in the PL....

[danefan]

I never heard about a Towson court case regarding the AI during their stint in the PL....

If I remember correctly, the AI was significantly modified for Towson to avoid the issue.

[Dane96]

Correct.

I wish people would really use their god-given brains to think about the AI and public schools before typing. A basic class in governance we likely all took in HS or College should easily flesh out the reasoning.

And to be clear: ARMY AND NAVY are not the same as a State School. One is a government institution under federal mandate...the other is a State institution that serves both federal and state mandates, the latter can invoke stronger policies as long as it doesn't circumvent the former's policy.

[Seawolf97]

It will be interesting to see how Boston Univ. navigates through the AI overtime. They have a great academic reputation but I suspect at times have looked the other way when accepting student athletes who would not make the cut with an AI. Hey drop the AI and you would have quality schools at your doorstep seeking admission including state schools.

[mainejeff]

The UD has already begun to struggle selling FCS FB and a move like that would likely set attendance back even further.

And it has nothing to do with Delaware's stale stadium, atmosphere, or $$$ grab......or the fact that UD hasn't exactly set the world on fire recently???xrolleyesx

[UNH Fanboi]

And it has nothing to do with Delaware's stale stadium, atmosphere, or $$$ grab......or the fact that UD hasn't exactly set the world on fire recently???xrolleyesx

A championship, 2 second-place finishes, 20k+ in attendance and an alum playing starting QB on Sundays all in the past 10 years is setting the world on fire by FCS standards.

Delaware's problem with moving up is the same as ASU--they are a great program but have limited market potential.