Patriot League Recruiting - BUCKNELL

[carney2]

BUCKNELL - 53

It was beginning to appear that The Committee might have to make a trip to Marist on September 8th just to buy a game program to find out who the new freshmen might be. Then Coach Joe Susan snuck in this late announcement of his recruiting class, presumably trying for the one day each year when the Buffaloes are not totally consumed by kids who have severe pituitary problems and run around in short pants. Alas, it was not to be. Any talk of football was once again shuffled to the back page as the headlines screamed that basketball center Mike Muscala had suffered a mosquito bite in a tragic back yard barbecue incident in his home town. This is not to say that the orange and blue bovines don't care about football, but, really, they just don't give a crap.

Someone had better start caring. The Bison had its first winning season in 5 years in 2011. Some people who should know better see this as the beginning of the Joe Susan renaissance. Really? There have been some serious graduation losses, and last year's recruiting class was considered by The Committee to be made up of leftovers. It is therefore not unreasonable to opine that the success of Bucknell football over the next few years is highly dependent on this recruiting class of 2012. Did they do it? Did Susan get what he needs to move the program forward? The Committee has reached its conclusion. Now it's your turn.

THE GOOD
- Two years worth of cheeseburger munching OLs in one class. All Jumbos. After the underfed and over-matched OLs of the Landis years this should be a welcome change.
- Susan seems to have emptied New Jersey of football recruits. 10 (37%) are from the Garden State. Is this good? Who knows. It would however, seem that Joe Susan is concentrating on familiar territory that he roamed while an assistant at Rutgers, It at least seems logical.

THE BAD
- There does not much real quality beyond OL where, in reality, it may actually be quantity over quality. With one possible exception, all Ratings seem to be the lowest available.

QUALITY = 15: 13 of the 27 recruits are rated (48%), one a questionable 2-star. As noted above, 4 of the Rated recruits are OLs. The 2-star is questionable in that he is rated that highly by one service, but gets nary a mention, even at the lowest level, by the other two. With the possible exception of the 2-star, all ratings appear to be at the lowest possible level. Still, approaching 50% for Rated players is reasonable for a Patriot League recruiting class.

CLASS SIZE = 5: 27 Recruits.

DISTRIBUTION = 7: No recruited kickers.

SPEED = 8: The usual disclaimer that reliable speed information is hard to come by.

TRIGGER = 0: Three QBs, two Rated, neither with any star ratings.

JUMBO = 8: 7 OL and 3 DL; All of the OLs and one of the DLs meet the Jumbo criteria.

NEEDS = 8 (of 12):
OL = 5 (of 5): 7 recruits, all Jumbos, 4 Rated. The Bison may have met this need for this year and next.
DL = 2 (of 4): 3 recruits, 1 Jumbo, none Rated. Even allowing for the fact that 2 of the recruits enter as “DEs,” and Jumbo points may not matter, there does not appear to be a lot to get excited about here.
RB = 1 (of 3): 4 recruits (including a FB), 2 Rated, no stars. One of the Rated kids looks promising. The other is listed as only 5'7, 175.

COMMITTEE ADJUSTMENTS = 0
The Committee debated whether the 5 Patsy Points contributed by the 2-star recruit mentioned above might be excessive considering his lack of confirmation from the other two recruiting agencies. This led to further debates over whether this was due to inequities created by the system. We exhausted ourselves and decided to let things stand or fall on their merit.

THE RATINGS RACE WITH ALL PRESENT AND ACCOUNTED FOR:

Lafayette 67
Lehigh 62
Colgate 56
Holy Cross 54
Bucknell 53
Fordham 47
Georgetown 40

[DFW HOYA]

Thanks as always for the diligence in keeping these lists up--outside of the coaching war rooms, no one else takes the time to do so, not even Groller or Reinhard. With that in mind, questions for 2013:

1. How does scholarships change how the five core schools seek to recruit--do teams pivot to a regional strategy used by other I-A and I-AA programs (e.g., Tavani establishes a focus on signing the best PA kids with scholarships and fills in the gaps elsewhere) or try to establish a pipeline outside the region to build the base (e.g., Susan signs 5-6 from Florida to build up Bucknell in that region while getting what he can from the Northeast)?

2. Fordham had a two year head start with mixed results. Does Fordham maintain its lead or do the other five merely negate any advantage Fordham may have had?

3. Aside from the obvious, what is the biggest threat to Georgetown's recruiting going forward--that other PL schools will simply pick off Georgetown's list, that Georgetown will have to move to a lower level of recruit (in the face of losing the top 90-100 in the pool to scholarships), or that the recruit base will simply hold off on commitments to Georgetown in the hope of a last minute scholarship offer or walk-on nod elsewhere? (Two major recruits for GU did just that in 2012.)

[bison137]

BUCKNELL - 51

THE BAD

- Not much quality beyond OL. Only 7 Rated recruits who are not OLs – and some questions there.

QUALITY = 15: 11 of the 27 recruits are rated (41%), one a questionable 2-star. . . .

DL = 2 (of 4): 3 recruits, 1 Jumbo, none Rated. Even allowing for the fact that 2 of the recruits enter as “DEs,” and Jumbo points may not matter, there does not appear to be a lot to get excited about here.
RB = 1 (of 3): 4 recruits (including a FB), 1 Rated, no stars. The Rated kid looks promising. That's one.




Not that it matters much, but actually 13 of the 27 are rated (assuming ESPN is one of the sources). RB Matt Del Mauro and DE Jimmy King are both rated by ESPN but not included above. Del Mauro rushed for about 2800 yards and 43 TD's his last two seasons at Nutley and made Group 3 All-State. Will be playing in the North-South game. Despite Del Mauro's height, I think BU has added at least two RB's, not one.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

As is being discussed elsewhere, it remains to be seen how much difference the merit aid is going to make, especially at schools with ample need-based financial aid schemes in place. Bucknell was talking about net five scholarships-- even if that would be per year, which is not at all clear, is that decisive? Fordham's performance would indicate otherwise. It seems like it will still all be played out on the field.

DFW, I think you are in the business of lowering any expectations placed on the Hoyas, despite last year's performance and lack of dramatic losses to graduation.

Carney, thanks for stewardship of the Patsymeter. I was thinking BU might need to recruit a new SID.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, I think you are in the business of lowering any expectations placed on the Hoyas, despite last year's performance and lack of dramatic losses to graduation.

Not at all, but recruiting does matter going forward. After all, it was John Bravman who said:

"In my initial note to campus a few weeks ago I expressed the opinion that Option 1 [merit aid] seems to me unavoidable... I cannot in good conscience support Option 2 [not implement merit aid and have our football players compete against scholarship athletes weekend after weekend] , given the disparities it would lead to on the field, and given the grave effect it would have on our recruiting."

Six schools chose Option 1. One is choosing Option 2. That's bound to affect ratings (and the recruiting) going forward.

http://www.bucknell.edu/x74875.xml

[RichH2]

I do not expect schools to really substantively alter their recruiting stategies in any significant way. IMO we will see the toe in the water approach initially with some efforts made outside our usual areas and perhaps to some particular players we might not have attempted seriously last year. We should all learn from thr FU experience. Too broad, too high , too fast. Not that staff didn't bring in some excellent talent but they wasted too much effort and time on recruits around the country that they really had no shot for. Small consolation that you lost lots of prospects to Big1o and 12 schools and ACC. Hurt the rest of their recruiting. I also have been wondering how recruiting will change over the next 3-4 years. More head to head with CAA? More wins vs Ivies? Absent a good amount of luck with certain recruits, ( like us with getting Lum), PL will improve as schollies take hold, not to the level of SoCon or CAA but a good bit better than we are now. Of course, depends on good coaching 1st and foremost as well as talent evaluation and continued admin support.

[carney2]

Not that it matters much, but actually 13 of the 27 are rated (assuming ESPN is one of the sources). RB Matt Del Mauro and DE Jimmy King are both rated by ESPN but not included above. Del Mauro rushed for about 2800 yards and 43 TD's his last two seasons at Nutley and made Group 3 All-State. Will be playing in the North-South game. Despite Del Mauro's height, I think BU has added at least two RB's, not one.

It does matter. I will double check. It's nice to know that someone is paying attention. Thanks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown seems to have the highest overall academic profile of the PL football schools. Given the way the AI is structured, however, recruits for all the PL schools must meet roughly the same academic criteria. That won't change once merit aid kicks in. A kid who wants to go to Georgetown still will choose Georgetown, even if Fordham or Holy Cross offers him a scholarship - provided Georgetown makes available the same need-based aid that it always has provided. That's part of the equalizing effect of the AI, and it reflects Georgetown's particular academic status which exceeds many (even most) Ivy schools.

The same holds true in varying degrees for the other PL football schools. The kids who target PL schools initially are going to be the same regardless of scholarships. It seems to me that scholarships are going to be the difference for a few of them who otherwise would chose W&M or Villanova, perhaps Penn or Cornell, or even an FCS school such as Duke or Rutgers. This kid who wants Georgetown isn't going to shy away simply becasue he has to fill out a financial aid form and provide tax returns. Georgetown will lose a couple of kids, at best, to another PL school - and perhaps none at all if the Hoyas keep posting 8-3 records.

The one thing that could dramatically affect Georgetown's position is its approach towards the PL. If the Hoyas remain "all in" as they have for the past decade, they'll be fine. If the Hoyas throw up their collective hands at the scholarship disparity and lament their should-be-Ivy status as justification for non-competitiveness, then they'll get exactly what they wish for.

[van]

Have to agree with Bogie here, my thought is that merit aid gets 3-5 recruits per year that we would not otherwise have gotten. Is that enough to make a significant increase in competitiveness, probably not, but should make a notable difference. We will see in 3 or 4 years.

[DFW HOYA]

I think Bucknell will be an interesting case study on the effectiveness of scholarships to raise the competitive level. Lehigh and Colgate are always going to get their share of wins outside the conference, but if the Bison start to dominate and overwhelm Ivy and NEC teams, it would be a harbinger for better teams to come.

[ngineer]

I think the merit aid will allow the PL schools to spend more time going after some regional kids that we couldn't compete for before and knew they'd end up at Delaware, Villanova, Penn. Over the past 10 years Lehigh, and other PL schools, have established certain national 'regions' where we've consistently recruited a handful of players. With those contacts made, I would assume they will be continued, and in fact could possibly lure a kid a two who might be thinking Furman, Wofford, Bill & Mary, Richmond. Just one or two major skill players a year can make a difference in our ability to compete with the CAA and SoCon on a more consistent basis.

[carney2]

Not that it matters much, but actually 13 of the 27 are rated (assuming ESPN is one of the sources). RB Matt Del Mauro and DE Jimmy King are both rated by ESPN but not included above. Del Mauro rushed for about 2800 yards and 43 TD's his last two seasons at Nutley and made Group 3 All-State. Will be playing in the North-South game. Despite Del Mauro's height, I think BU has added at least two RB's, not one.

You are 100% spot on, and corrections have been made. It all comes down to "What's in a name?" The Del Mauro kid is listed as DelMauro in the Bucknell press release. If one searches, as I did, for DelMauro, there are no hits. If you place a space between the Del and the Mauro as you do, he is indeed rated by ESPN. As for Mr. King, he is listed as James King in the press release. James King is not rated. Jimmy King is.

I should have uncovered JImmy King, but would never have found Del Mauro without your help. Thanks.

[carney2]

1. How does scholarships change how the five core schools seek to recruit--do teams pivot to a regional strategy used by other I-A and I-AA programs (e.g., Tavani establishes a focus on signing the best PA kids with scholarships and fills in the gaps elsewhere) or try to establish a pipeline outside the region to build the base (e.g., Susan signs 5-6 from Florida to build up Bucknell in that region while getting what he can from the Northeast)?

2. Fordham had a two year head start with mixed results. Does Fordham maintain its lead or do the other five merely negate any advantage Fordham may have had?

3. Aside from the obvious, what is the biggest threat to Georgetown's recruiting going forward--that other PL schools will simply pick off Georgetown's list, that Georgetown will have to move to a lower level of recruit (in the face of losing the top 90-100 in the pool to scholarships), or that the recruit base will simply hold off on commitments to Georgetown in the hope of a last minute scholarship offer or walk-on nod elsewhere? (Two major recruits for GU did just that in 2012.)

1. You have asked the question that no one seems able to answer. Some (most) appear to be leaning to the conclusion that Patriot league schools will now be offering scholarships to the same kids who have not been receiving scholarships heretofore. Huh?! If it comes to this, why did we bother? Are we saying, as some have hinted, that scholarships will go to the kids who would have been the "best" of previous classes and we are hoping to cherry pick a few that we would have never gotten in the past? Is this the great leap forward that many envision?

2. Fordham has so far done nothing with their "head start." If they don't make a serious leap forward this year I'm thinking that they have pretty much wasted whatever advantage they may have had.

3. I am perplexed. Why would there be any "threat to Georgetown's recruiting going forward?" The only thing that may change for Georgetown would be their relative competitiveness. They should be able to do what they've been doing for years. If, for instance, Holy Cross is now going for a higher level recruit, the history of Patriot League play gives us no reason to believe that they will be raiding the Georgetown recruiting lists to achieve that end.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The regional vs. national strategy has been a debate point for schools for the last twenty years, if not more. I don't think it changes the strategy per se but increases the number of athletes in both areas (regional or national) that the schools can recruit. Let's face it, PL schools, IL schools, CAA/Socon Schools FBS schools like Stanford, Vandy, Duke, are all going after that top 5% academic kids, which are pretty much identified all over the country at the beginning of these kids' junior years. Before, PL schools were handicapped by need-based aid, where everyone else was dangling full rides (yes, including the Ivies, basically). Now they are on a level playing field.

Fordham's struggles seem to prove the adage that a craftsman's skill is not based on his tools. They had the tools to do better, but they did not. Similarly, the mere fact of scholarships will not make teams better - it's what the coaching staffs do with those tools that makes the difference.

[RichH2]

Carney, given AI we pretty much must go after the "same" kids as in the past, difference is that we will get more of our 1st choices , not all but some who would have gone to a NEC due to money we'll get , likewise with CAA. IL a more even field. Heck last few years we've lost recruiting battles solely based on $$$ may get some of them

[van]

1. You have asked the question that no one seems able to answer. Some (most) appear to be leaning to the conclusion that Patriot league schools will now be offering scholarships to the same kids who have not been receiving scholarships heretofore. Huh?! If it comes to this, why did we bother? Are we saying, as some have hinted, that scholarships will go to the kids who would have been the "best" of previous classes and we are hoping to cherry pick a few that we would have never gotten in the past? Is this the great leap forward that many envision? d.

You have accurately described my position, most of the same kids and a few (3-5 per year) that we would not have gotten before. I think this is a leap forward. Great? Depends on how you define great.

[van]

Carney, given AI we pretty much must go after the "same" kids as in the past, difference is that we will get more of our 1st choices , not all but some who would have gone to a NEC due to money we'll get , likewise with CAA. IL a more even field. Heck last few years we've lost recruiting battles solely based on $$$ may get some of them

Right, for example, maybe a Bo Orlando would have liked to play in Bethlehem if offered a schollie?

[colorless raider]

Right, for example, maybe a Bo Orlando would have liked to play in Bethlehem if offered a schollie?

More likely Colgate where his son is going this Fall.

[Engineer86]

More likely Colgate where his son is going this Fall.

I think he meant Joey, currently at UNH. I am not sure how his recruiting went, nor the two McNeelys there, but I would think a local scholarship would have been enticing. Honestly, the Orlando you got is a step below, based on his HS performance, but good look to him.

[van]

I think he meant Joey, currently at UNH. I am not sure how his recruiting went, nor the two McNeelys there, but I would think a local scholarship would have been enticing. Honestly, the Orlando you got is a step below, based on his HS performance, but good look to him.

Thanks 86, yes Joey was who I was thinking of, senior moment.

[LUHawker]

The regional vs. national strategy has been a debate point for schools for the last twenty years, if not more. I don't think it changes the strategy per se but increases the number of athletes in both areas (regional or national) that the schools can recruit. Let's face it, PL schools, IL schools, CAA/Socon Schools FBS schools like Stanford, Vandy, Duke, are all going after that top 5% academic kids, which are pretty much identified all over the country at the beginning of these kids' junior years. Before, PL schools were handicapped by need-based aid, where everyone else was dangling full rides (yes, including the Ivies, basically). Now they are on a level playing field.

Fordham's struggles seem to prove the adage that a craftsman's skill is not based on his tools. They had the tools to do better, but they did not. Similarly, the mere fact of scholarships will not make teams better - it's what the coaching staffs do with those tools that makes the difference.

Chuck,

I think you are being a tad liberal suggeting that the SoCon and CAA are going after the same top 5% as the IL, PL, Stanford, Vandy, etc. For sure, a few schools go after a few of the same academic caliber kids, but it is a very small number. Most kids in the CAA and SoCon wouldn't have a chance academically to attend those other schools. Me thinks you are trying to promulgate your super conference agenda.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Chuck,

I think you are being a tad liberal suggeting that the SoCon and CAA are going after the same top 5% as the IL, PL, Stanford, Vandy, etc. For sure, a few schools go after a few of the same academic caliber kids, but it is a very small number. Most kids in the CAA and SoCon wouldn't have a chance academically to attend those other schools. Me thinks you are trying to promulgate your super conference agenda.

My point is that every school, and I mean EVERY school, wants the kids with 4.0 GPAs and can pass the ball 75 yards across their body. Delaware isn't going to not recruit a high-academic kid if they think they can start as a freshman. Neither will Western Michigan.

What PL schools will never do is comb the NCAA clearinghouse list looking for kids that are borderline eligible for college. However - and here's a secret - neither does the CAA. As a matter of fact, the schools that came closest to that are now no longer a part of the CAA.

[RichH2]

A given that really good players will get recruited even if they are also smart. PL issue is that these are the only players we can recruit.

Amore pertinet question for today is how many schollies will each of PL award for this coming class? Each can do 15 but how many can or will? BU already indicated no more than 5 .

[DFW HOYA]

A more pertinet question for today is how many schollies will each of PL award for this coming class? Each can do 15 but how many can or will? BU already indicated no more than 5 .

Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Lafayette: 15
Bucknell: 10 or 11.
Georgetown: I think this has already been discussed...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Amore pertinet question for today is how many schollies will each of PL award for this coming class? Each can do 15 but how many can or will? BU already indicated no more than 5 .


Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Lafayette: 15
Bucknell: 10 or 11.
Georgetown: I think this has already been discussed...

I think an important sub-question here is: how many are going to be split up into partials? 15 scholarships don't necessarily mean 15 full-scholarship players. It can mean 10 full and 10 partial - partials that can end up being "full" if the need is there.

[RichH2]

God point on partials. Tavani has said tht he will only give full schollies. Seems a bit counterproductive. What about Tweeers , those kids that you dont want to risk a full ride on but do a combo package. Talent evaluation always crucial now becomes even more so

[CFBfan]

God point on partials. Tavani has said tht he will only give full schollies. Seems a bit counterproductive. What about Tweeers , those kids that you dont want to risk a full ride on but do a combo package. Talent evaluation always crucial now becomes even more so

unless you are going after 15 kids that other schools are going after (PL and "non" PL) and will be offered full rides.....I think that would be the idea: get 15 kids every year that other FCS programs would offer full rides too

[carney2]

God point on partials. Tavani has said tht he will only give full schollies. Seems a bit counterproductive.

I don't have access to his original statement but I don't think that Tavani ever stated that "he will only give full schollies." I think he wants to keep partials to a minimum. There is a difference.

[RichH2]

Looking back thru threads statement was recounted not quoted so you are probably correct. Makes much more sense.

[van]

As Carney has pointed out, it is a new world order for us. But to me, it makes sense to maximize full merit based and full or close to full need based. Mixing the two has some drawbacks. Still need to stay below the 85 limit. We will still need to recruit those student athletes that qualify for need based $$.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Great - so now what's my next LFN blog posting? A break-down of Lehigh's Week 1 opponent? How Big East media rights affects Patriot League football? Or the brave new world of scholarships? So many choices.

[RichH2]

We are forgetting IMo the inherent flexibilty merit aid gives to staff. Last yr need numbers sole factor in $$ offer. Now more decisions for coachesDo we want kid A for full ride oh will go to UNH or do we let him go and take B, not as highly recruited but we think he is good and we can give him 3/4 merit plus need.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't have access to his original statement but I don't think that Tavani ever stated that "he will only give full schollies." I think he wants to keep partials to a minimum. There is a difference.

Tavani's quote from the Maroon and White games was that he anticipates splitting "few if any" scholarships. "Maybe one or two," he said.

[RichH2]

Thanks Bogie. Kid gets offer from Penn for 35,000 will he take a full ride from PL squad?

[Ken_Z]

A given that really good players will get recruited even if they are also smart. PL issue is that these are the only players we can recruit.

Amore pertinet question for today is how many schollies will each of PL award for this coming class? Each can do 15 but how many can or will? BU already indicated no more than 5 .

where do you get this from? BU indicated that the increase from current merit aid to 60 schlarships would cost equivalent of 5 additional scholarships. i expect coach Susan will bring in players using the equivalent of 15 full scholarships as he sees fit. we are still going to get to 60, and I do not think there is any restriction on how much is not need based. suppose in the past we went for player A because we could offer 100% based on need. now we can go after either player A or player B who is 100% merit with no need. cost to the school is unchanged, just a player who we could not have previously provided assistance now gets it and player A is sol unless he cn get into school as a regular academic admit with demonstrated need (and gets a normal package consisting of a mix of grant, loan and work assistance).

[carney2]

Still need to stay below the 85 limit.

I've been dozing. Has an official roster limit been set? I was not aware that many, if any, of the working rules for scholarship football in the Patriot League have been cast in stone. As many of you know, it would not be the first time that I've missed something.

[carney2]

Great - so now what's my next LFN blog posting? A break-down of Lehigh's Week 1 opponent? How Big East media rights affects Patriot League football? Or the brave new world of scholarships? So many choices.

If you want a topic (or 2, or...) for your blog, take a spin thru the thread titled "Official 2012 Schedule" on the Lafayette Forum. Lots of eye opening info there as to how the big kids - in this case W&M - play the scholarship game. When you're finished you need to ask yourself - and your readers - exactly how Patriot League schools will fit in with this. Will schollies really create a level playing field?

Just a suggestion as long as you asked.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thanks Bogie. Kid gets offer from Penn for 35,000 will he take a full ride from PL squad?


Yes. Especially if it's Penn. I chose Lafayette over Penn and I'm aware of several others who did as well. That said, Penn has the strongest football tradition in the Ivy and it remains far more likely than some other Ivies to continue to provide vigorous support.

[CFBfan]

Bogie, Lauren's 1st & 10 looks like a wonderful event and certainly a great (and sad) cause.
I'm just wondering if you attend or just support? I ask because I'm taking my youngest and if you're there would like to say hello.....

[van]

I've been dozing. Has an official roster limit been set? I was not aware that many, if any, of the working rules for scholarship football in the Patriot League have been cast in stone. As many of you know, it would not be the first time that I've missed something.

FCS schools are allowed to add their 63 scholarships among no more than 85 individual players. In the case of PL rules that would be 60 scholarships among no more than 85 individual players.

[carney2]

FCS schools are allowed to add their 63 scholarships among no more than 85 individual players. In the case of PL rules that would be 60 scholarships among no more than 85 individual players.

Having watched too many TV lawyers thread the needle over the years, I have to ask if this really presents a roster limit. It seems to me that once the 60 scholarships have been distributed, the roster still has room for an unspecified number of walk-ons and other non scholarship players. As I did with your fellow Squawker, LFN, I refer you to that "Official 2012 Schedule" thread on the the Lafayette Sports Forum where it was determined that the football scholarship count is not an enforceable issue under NCAA rules. I's the ridiculously amorphous concept of "counters" that really matters. W&M, for instance, is laboring under the NCAA maximum of 63 for FCS schools, but actually has 80 or more in school and on football scholarships at any one time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Having watched too many TV lawyers thread the needle over the years, I have to ask if this really presents a roster limit. It seems to me that once the 60 scholarships have been distributed, the roster still has room for an unspecified number of walk-ons and other non scholarship players. As I did with your fellow Squawker, LFN, I refer you to that "Official 2012 Schedule" thread on the the Lafayette Sports Forum where it was determined that the football scholarship count is not an enforceable issue under NCAA rules. I's the ridiculously amorphous concept of "counters" that really matters. W&M, for instance, is laboring under the NCAA maximum of 63 for FCS schools, but actually has 80 or more in school and on football scholarships at any one time.

I took a peek at it last week. IMVHO it states that while FCS has a limit of 63 "equivalencies", roster sizes are higher than that. What that means is that rosters are populated with a certain mix of walk-ons, partial scholarship kids, and full scholarship kids. Now "partial scholarship" kids can be just like the grant-in-aid kids that the PL has had all along - they go through the financial aid office, is granted, say, "half" need, so counts for "half" a scholarship while the rest of his education is paid by a need scholarship.

This, of course, extends your equivalency dollars. Suppose you have 53 kids on "full", and 20 "half" scholarships to dole out. Suddenly, with a bit of extra work, you have 73 kids receiving aid, but with 63 "counters". I assume every scholarship FCS school does this to some degree or another.

[breezy]

I fully admit to being blissfully unaware of all the intricacies of the NCAA requirements, but it is my understanding that in LFN's example all 73 would be "counters" against the NCAA limit of 85. To have a roster in excess of 85 players, you would need to have pure walk-ons (i.e., players who are not recruited and who receive only need-based aid without enhancement (i.e., grants in lieu of loans as is currently done with the equivalencies used by PL teams). I fully expect PL teams to divide their 60 scholarships in such a way as to spread them out among 85 players. (For example, 40 full scholarships plus 40 half-scholarships means 60 scholarships in total spread among 80 players.)

I am also not clear whether (continuing the example above) those players who might get half-scholarships can also get need-based aid from the school. I am presuming that they can get the same type of need-based aid that any other student could get (after allowance for the merit-based half-scholarship). Thus, if the PL team recruits a player whose family income would permit grant of a full scholarship based on need only, there would be no need to use a merit-based scholarship for that player, and it could be used for another player. The fact that both were recruited, however, would make them both "counters" toward the 85 limit.

If any of my impressions are incorrect, I am open to being corrected and informed on the proper way to approach these situations.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe the distinction is this: there are counters for scholarships, and counters for participation. To make this easier, let's pretend we're talking about women's lacrosse.

For the sake of argument, let's say Lehigh's women lax team has 13 members, but three scholarships to spread around.

The women's lax team can choose to break up their three scholarships into partial scholarships. The student can also choose go through the financial aid office to see if they qualify for pure financial aid.

The total "counter" amount of athletic aid is 3 scholarships - split up six ways. But the athletic participation "counter" amount for Title IX is 13 athletes playing women's lacrosse. That participation number is used to calculate Title IX participation.

I believe the reasoning for this is that need-based aid is available to everyone. But athletic aid is available to some solely due to the fact that they excel at a sport.

[RichH2]

As far as I understand, need aid availble to all students can be used to supplement a partial merit schollie. The edge W7M and others have is redshirtig. Many redshirt most if not all of frosh. PL CANNOT. Siply a squad can have up to 85 recruited players receiving a total of 63 merit scholarships. Need aid and certain academic sholarships are permissible in this mix so long as you dont exceed 85 recruited players. Walkons , a deiciously vague concept, do not count.

[bison137]

I've been dozing. Has an official roster limit been set? I was not aware that many, if any, of the working rules for scholarship football in the Patriot League have been cast in stone. As many of you know, it would not be the first time that I've missed something.

I don't think there is going to be any roster limit - other than the limit of 60 equivalencies spread among the NCAA limit of 85 or fewer individuals. Other than that, I don't think there is any limit as to how many walk-ons are allowed on the roster. Also, I doubt the travel roster limitation of 58 will be changed.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogie, Lauren's 1st & 10 looks like a wonderful event and certainly a great (and sad) cause.
I'm just wondering if you attend or just support? I ask because I'm taking my youngest and if you're there would like to say hello.....

Sent you a PM - thanks for asking about First & Goal.

[RichH2]

I do recall the topic of max roster size coming up last year. I know LU has a max # for Preseason camp, I do not think that applies during the season.

[bison137]

I do recall the topic of max roster size coming up last year. I know LU has a max # for Preseason camp, I do not think that applies during the season.


IIRC, the NCAA limit for preseason camp is 95 (although that does not apply if a team has a JV team that plays at least four games or if a program is non-scholarship). Once school starts, I don't think there is any limit as to how many players can be on the roster.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IIRC, the NCAA limit for preseason camp is 95 (although that does not apply if a team has a JV team that plays at least four games or if a program is non-scholarship). Once school starts, I don't think there is any limit as to how many players can be on the roster.

That sounds right. Though there are limits for gameday and travel teams.

Also, you run into Title IX participation as well. Maybe someone can confirm, but if 120 kids participate in the games, that's 120 male "participants" for football for the season, which requires female "participation" athletically for Title IX purposes. So while technically there is no limit, it is limited in the sense that you need Title IX balance.

[van]

Having watched too many TV lawyers thread the needle over the years, I have to ask if this really presents a roster limit. It seems to me that once the 60 scholarships have been distributed, the roster still has room for an unspecified number of walk-ons and other non scholarship players. As I did with your fellow Squawker, LFN, I refer you to that "Official 2012 Schedule" thread on the the Lafayette Sports Forum where it was determined that the football scholarship count is not an enforceable issue under NCAA rules. I's the ridiculously amorphous concept of "counters" that really matters. W&M, for instance, is laboring under the NCAA maximum of 63 for FCS schools, but actually has 80 or more in school and on football scholarships at any one time.

My point was that partial merit aid counts against the PL 15 on an equivalent basis, whereas, it counts against the NCAA 85 limit on an integer basis. So, 30 half merit aid awards per year meets PL guidance, but would equate to 120 over 4 years, and 120>85, won't work. OR 8 full merits and 14 half merits per year would equate to 86 over 4 years, and 86, more or less works. In this example, 22 "merit" recruits per year needs to be supplemented with some "walk on" or need based aid bodies to fill the roster. Because we use only limited "med shirting", we would likely have more full merits than W&M.

[RichH2]

My point was that partial merit aid counts against the PL 15 on an equivalent basis, whereas, it counts against the NCAA 85 limit on an integer basis. So, 30 half merit aid awards per year meets PL guidance, but would equate to 120 over 4 years, and 120>85, won't work. OR 8 full merits and 14 half merits per year would equate to 86 over 4 years, and 86, more or less works. In this example, 22 "merit" recruits per year needs to be supplemented with some "walk on" or need based aid bodies to fill the roster. Because we use only limited "med shirting", we would likely have more full merits than W&M.

Agree that on balance most PL squads would have to have more full rides than partials assumng all fully fund merit aid. 60 full rides over 4 yrs could be 40 full and 20 partial over 45 players. plus walkons and academic scholarships

[DFW HOYA]

Agree that on balance most PL squads would have to have more full rides than partials assumng all fully fund merit aid. 60 full rides over 4 yrs could be 40 full and 20 partial over 45 players. plus walkons and academic scholarships

Not all PL schools offer academic scholarships. Colgate, Holy Cross, and Georgetown do not have academic (merit) aid awards.

[van]

Agree that on balance most PL squads would have to have more full rides than partials assumng all fully fund merit aid. 60 full rides over 4 yrs could be 40 full and 20 partial over 45 players. plus walkons and academic scholarships

You said it much clearer than I, not bad for an old guy!

[RichH2]

:DGee I guess that is a compliment but why now do I feel as if I should get a walker.

Another noticeable item so far this off season , there is much more coverage for FCS schools on all the recruitig sites then ever before . No that long ago we all looked to the blitz site for what little info there was. For Lehigh and PL in past if there were 4 or 5 names up now we would be thankful. Now LU and HC at around 30. Greater name recognition? Certainly true for LU BBall.