Six strongest I-AA leagues, 1998-2005

[JohnStOnge]

I need for everyone to seriously indicate what the six strongest I-AA leagues have been overall for the period 1998-2006. I'm writing something for the preview magazine and I might want to make a statement about which six leagues are regarded as toughest over that period by members of this board.

I'm asking you not to get into a debate because I'm going to need to take the results off this board and tabulate them. The less "noise" the better. No explanations supporting your opinions are needed. Simply indicate the 6 I-AA leagues you think were toughest over that period and rank them from 1 through 6 according to your opinion. You can indicate ties (you'll see that in my example). Think in terms of top to bottom strength. Omit the Great West because it's so new.

Here's mine as an example, just off the top of my head:

1 A-10
2.5 Big Sky
2.5 Gateway
4 Southland
5 Southern
6 Patriot

I'm going to tabulate results posted through this Friday.

[MR. CHICKEN]

A-10
GATEWAY
SOUTHERN
SOUTHLAND
BIG SKY
PATRIOT................AWK!

[TexasTerror]

A-10
GATEWAY
SOUTHERN
SOUTHLAND
BIG SKY
PATRIOT................AWK!

Mr Chicken, why do you got the SLC at #4? I thought you were the biggest Bearkat in the Brawkeast!

[MR. CHICKEN]

A-10...TOP TA BOTTOM...TOUGH
GATEWAY.....FOUR TA FIVE....ARE TOUGH
SOUTHERN....THREE TEAMS....BUT LORDY....TOUGH
SOUTHLAND...MINI A-10......YER CONFERENCE....IS UP FO' GRABS LATELY
BIG SKY......MONTANA.....AN' UH COUPLE CAPABLE O' UH SCARE
PATRIOT.....THREE TEAMS......NOWHERE AS TOUGH AS SOUTHERN CONFERENCE......(DUH SPOTS DID SCARE DUH MOUSEKETEERS DOUGH)............:twocents:.......BRAWK!

[blukeys]

Those are probably the best years for the A-10 with NC's in UMASS, Delaware and JMU. Nova was a team that could have gone to the finals in '02 except for a homer ref call that went against them when they played McNeese. The 2000 UD team laid an egg and 3 missed field goals against GSU. If you went by the Ol FU formula the CAA (let's start using the new nomenclature) probably comes out ahead. Great way to recycle the old and never ending debate about what is the best conference.

But I am willing to play whenever one makes it interesting.

[slostang]

The GWFC is only going into it's third year but it is quickly becoming a very good conference. With only five teams the only thing it is lacking is depth.

[gasoutherneagle]

SOUTHERN...3, but one BIG one (titles say it all). OK, Crappy and Fumun too. :)
A-10
GATEWAY
SOUTHLAND
BIG SKY
PATRIOT

[AppGuy04]

A-10 is probably the best from top to bottom, Southern is the most top heavy

[JohnStOnge]

Those are probably the best years for the A-10 with NC's in UMASS, Delaware and JMU. Nova was a team that could have gone to the finals in '02 except for a homer ref call that went against them when they played McNeese. The 2000 UD team laid an egg and 3 missed field goals against GSU. If you went by the Ol FU formula the CAA (let's start using the new nomenclature) probably comes out ahead. Great way to recycle the old and never ending debate about what is the best conference.

But I am willing to play whenever one makes it interesting.

Guys, I'm soliciting this information for a reason. I just want an honest opinion on what the six toughest I-AA leagues were 1998-2006. For the purpose of the article I'm writing, I want to be able to make some kind of statement about which six leagues are regarded as the strongest for that period. It has to do with breaking down interdivisional records in head to head games for I-AA overall and for I-AA teams from the 6 leagues regarded as toughest.

I am not at all interested in which is regarded as THE best conference. I just want to identify the 6 toughest leagues in I-AA. And the reason I chose "6" is because the BCS/non BCS dicotomy in I-AA involves 6 BCS leagues that are the 6 toughest in that subdivision. I am making a database and I simply want to see what the record of teams from the I-AA leagues regarded as the 6 toughest is against non BCS I-As (and maybe BCS I-As as well).

Your input doesn't do me any good unless I get your opinion regarding all six of the ones you think were strongest during that period.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What has the Southland done in the playoffs that the PL hasn't done? I would go.
1. A-10
2. Southern
3. Gateway
4. Big Sky
5. Patriot
6. Southland

[ngineer]

1. A-10 hands down, toughest conference top to bottom
2. Gateway--better balance than what follows
3. Big Sky--Some very strong top teams, lesser lights lighter than Gateways'
4. SoCon--Big 3 with Wofford and WCU trying to splash--a good show this year would
jump the conference to 3 or 2.
5. PL and Southland virtual tie. Both leagues have dichotomies with stark differences
between top half and bottom--like the SoCon, but the top teams in the
SoCon are stronger than these, and the bottom half stronger than these.

[*****]

... which six leagues are regarded as the strongest for that period...Your six are fine, the order may be disputable but those are the six.

[I-AA Fan]

Was there a reason you chose those years? You should consider 1996 to 2005, a 10-year period. I am not certain you can argue the A-10 during the entire period you requested. Their OOC schedule was less than solid until recent years. Rarely stepped out of a much weaker (at that time) PL, or Ivy. Western KY was not in the GFC for couple of those years, but still, YSU was a member. The SoCon & Sky have always been top-heavy, but the former gained some depth when Marshall left. The SLC and OVC were probably the deepest conferences, and the overall strength of the OVC began to fade about that time. That being said, that was about the time the power of the SLC began to shift out of TX ... to LA ...and although top-heavy in recent years ...not back then. No picks, everyone's a homer here. If I am forced to pick ...the SLC, or GFC for the entire 10 year period.

[Tribe4SF]

1. A-10/CAA (10 of members made playoffs during the period)
2. Gateway (Second best balance)
3. Big Sky (Griz and 3 or 4 others every year)
4. Southern (3 top dogs always there)
5. Southland (Better balance lately)
6. Patriot (Like Southern, but lesser)

Just look at playoff results for the period, and it's pretty obvious that these six are correct. The order can be debated, but the membership is right.

[TexasTerror]

5. PL and Southland virtual tie. Both leagues have dichotomies with stark differences
between top half and bottom--like the SoCon, but the top teams in the
SoCon are stronger than these, and the bottom half stronger than these.

What has the PL done in the playoffs?

SLC has sent three different teams to the I-AA semifinals the last three years...there may not be some strong suits, but the league is very balanced from top to bottom and each year sends a team deep in the playoffs.

The PL needs to step it up before they talk smack! xidiotx

[OL FU]

1. A-10 (Lots of reasons but three champs is a good start)
2. SoCon (2 champs two runners up)
3. Gateway (2 and 3 probably interchangeable)
4. Big Sky
5. Southland
6. Patriot (5 and 6 maybe interchangeable)

[OL FU]

What has the PL done in the playoffs?

SLC has sent three different teams to the I-AA semifinals the last three years...there may not be some strong suits, but the league is very balanced from top to bottom and each year sends a team deep in the playoffs.

The PL needs to step it up before they talk smack! xidiotx

They have had as many teams in the NC games the southland during that period:p

[colgate13]

1. A-10
2. SoCon
3. Gateway
4. Big Sky
5. Southland
6. Patriot

[buckp]

1. A-10
2. SoCon
3. Big Sky
4. Gateway
5. Southland
6. Patriot

[McNeese75]

Looks about right to me

1. A-10
2. SoCon
3. Big Sky
4. Gateway
5. Southland
6. Patriot

[colgate13]

Looks about right to me

1. A-10
2. SoCon
3. Big Sky
4. Gateway
5. Southland
6. Patriot

I have trouble with the Big Sky over the Gateway. In the time frame we are looking at the Big Sky only has two playoff wins from teams that are not Montana (11 from Montana) and one Montana NC.

The Gateway has 22 playoff wins spread over 6 teams with a WKU NC. The Gateway wins this head to head no contest IMO.

[Saint3333]

Not sure why 1998 was picked as the start date, but here are some interesting numbers below. Very interesting that the SoCon could be third or lower on anyone's list.

However if the criteria is playoff performance let's not be too quick to place the A-10 on top. I like the call of the Gateway over the Big Sky.

1998-2005

A-10
Playoffs wins - 29
Semifinalists - 6
Runner up - 0
National Champs - 3

SoCon
Playoff wins - 31
Semifinalists - 10
Runner ups - 2
National Champs - 3

I'm for a 1 and 1a classification, SoCon first of course:smiley_wi .

[89Hen]

I am not certain you can argue the A-10 during the entire period you requested. Their OOC schedule was less than solid until recent years.... The SLC and OVC were probably the deepest conferences, and the overall strength of the OVC began to fade about that time. That being said, that was about the time the power of the SLC began to shift out of TX ... to LA ...and although top-heavy in recent years ...not back then. No picks, everyone's a homer here. If I am forced to pick ...the SLC, or GFC for the entire 10 year period.
:confused: :confused: :confused:
The OVC as one of the two deepest conferences? Even when EKU was a powerhouse they were never one of the deepest conferences. And the SLC? There were only two appearances in the finals by McNeese in 1997 and 2002 and no NC's.

As for the period in question (1998-2005) the A10 is either #1 or #2 irregardless of regular season OOC schedules.

[crunifan]

1) Atlantic 10-strong from top to bottom
2) Gateway- Extremely balanced (minus Indiana State)
3) Southern-Very top heavy, great play-off perfomance
4) Big Sky- Even more top heavy
5) Southland
6) Patriot

[GeauxColonels]

Looks about right to me

1. A-10
2. SoCon
3. Big Sky
4. Gateway
5. Southland
6. Patriot
Yeah, I think everyone has the top 6 right. The ORDER may be debatable, but that's not what he's asking for.

[Ronbo]

Not sure why 1998 was picked as the start date, but here are some interesting numbers below. Very interesting that the SoCon could be third or lower on anyone's list.

However if the criteria is playoff performance let's not be too quick to place the A-10 on top. I like the call of the Gateway over the Big Sky.

1998-2005

A-10
Playoffs wins - 29
Semifinalists - 6
Runner up - 0
National Champs - 3

SoCon
Playoff wins - 31
Semifinalists - 10
Runner ups - 2
National Champs - 3

I'm for a 1 and 1a classification, SoCon first of course:smiley_wi .

You guys are right about the Big Sky. It's Montana and the 8 step children. They can't win playoff games so they deserve zero respect.

[Saint3333]

So the conference with 10 out the last 32 semifinalists, 5 out of the last 16 finalists, and 3 out of the last eight national champions is the third best conference :confused: .

Since 1998 SoCon is 8-1 versus the Gateway.

Same timeframe SoCon is 14-13 versus the A-10, including Elon's two losses to Towson, thanks Elon...

[Jag4Life]

1)A-10
3)SWAC
4)Big Sky
5)MEAC
6)Southern

[89Hen]

1)A-10
3)SWAC
4)Big Sky
5)MEAC
6)Southern
Results show otherwise Jag.

[UD1993]

1. A10
2. Southern
3. Gateway
4. Big Sky
5. Southland
6. Patriot

[OL FU]

I wonder how close the GWFC is to slipping in here. Three in the top twenty five this year is strong.

[HensRock]

Same timeframe SoCon is 14-13 versus the A-10, including Elon's two losses to Towson, thanks Elon...


By my count, the A-10 is 19-17 vs. the SoCon in that timeframe and that only includes 1 Towson victory over Elon (2004 when Towson joined the A-10)

[SoCon48]

So the conference with 10 out the last 32 semifinalists, 5 out of the last 16 finalists, and 3 out of the last eight national champions is the third best conference :confused: .

...

Something about top to bottom or some such bullcrap,

[HensRock]

Actually, I forgot that Hofstra wasn't in the A-10 until 2001, so that makes it 18-15 in favor of the A-10.

2005 0-3
HU lost to FU
NU lost to GSU
UR lost to FU

2004 3-0
UNH beat GSU
JMU beat FU
TU beat Elon

2003 2-2
UD beat Citadel
UD beat WC
HU lost to Elon
UR lost to FU

2002 4-3
Maine beat ASU
UD beat GSU
VU beat FU
WM beat VMI
UR lost to FU
Maine lost to GSU
UD lost to Citadel

2001 1-2
WM beat VMI
UD lost to GSU
WM lost to ASU

2000 2-2
UD beat Citadel
WM beat VMI
UD lost to GSU
WM lost to FU

1999 4-2
UMass beat FU
UD beat Citadel
WM beat VMI
UR beat VMI
UMass lost to GSU
WM lost to FU

1998 2-1
UMass beat GSU
WM beat VMI
UConn lost to GSU

[asu70]

1. SoCon
2. A10
3. Gateway
4. Big Sky
5. Southland
6. Patriot

[Gort]

1 - A10
2 - Gateway
2 - SoCon
4 - Big Sky
5 - Southland
6 - Patriot

the A10 has had three titles and most of their teams, 10 of 12 or 83% participated in the playoffs during the year's in question

the SoCon also has three titles, but since only 3 of their 9 teams (includes the Elon/VMI combo) 33% made the post season, they can't challenge for the top spot and I'd rank them at #2 tied with the Gateway

[Saint3333]

Gort couldn't be more wrong. Four SoCon teams have not only made the playoffs since 1998, but four have made it to the semifinals.

As for the records I posted earlier I left off VMI, didn't count the win over UConn, but did count both of Towson's wins over Elon. After review the current members of the SoCon are 15-12 against the A-10 since 1998, even better. Congratulations to the A-10 for going 6-0 against VMI from 1998 - 2002. :)

[Gort]

I stand corrected, 44% of the SoCon made the playoffs, but 44% vs 83%, not even close!

[89Hen]

Gort couldn't be more wrong. Four SoCon teams have not only made the playoffs... Congratulations to the A-10 for going 6-0 against VMI from 1998 - 2002. :)
Yeah, what in the world was he thinking missing that fourth, my goodness, he couldn't be more wrong.. xcoffeex

BTW, VMI was 3-5 in the SoCon in 2002. :p But if you want to throw out all crappy games, just go with playoffs.... 7-5 in favor of the A10 if you want to include GSU over UConn in 1998 and not include Hofstra over Furman in 2000. Counting current teams in each conference it is 8-4 in favor of the A10. :thumbsup:

[Go...gate]

I'm with your top 6, Colgate 13.

[Saint3333]

The point wasn't that four teams made the playoff, but that four of them made the semis.

I've already conceded that the A-10 could be 1a, we've been down this road before 89, looks like neither person has changed their mind imagine that.xcoffeex

[ErkPeterson]

Not sure why 1998 was picked as the start date, but here are some interesting numbers below. Very interesting that the SoCon could be third or lower on anyone's list.

However if the criteria is playoff performance let's not be too quick to place the A-10 on top. I like the call of the Gateway over the Big Sky.

1998-2005

A-10
Playoffs wins - 29
Semifinalists - 6
Runner up - 0
National Champs - 3

SoCon
Playoff wins - 31
Semifinalists - 10
Runner ups - 2
National Champs - 3

I'm for a 1 and 1a classification, SoCon first of course:smiley_wi .

After looking at this I have to agree with Saint3333. I'm looking at this objectively as I can. The A-10 is definatley the strongest conference from top to bottom right now, Even though Appy won the NC. I think alot of people are not addressing the years involved. Saint's stats speak for themselves. SoCon #1. IMO you take alot of other top tier teams and put them in our conference. Their success rate would drop dramatically. Of course this is just theory. My 2 cents. For the first time in my life I'm agreeing with an Appy...
:eyebrow:

[WMTribe90]

I'd have to do some research, but I believe all 12 A10 teams have been ranked in the top 25 (in season) during the period in question. URI got off to a 6-0 start a few years back and I believe Towson cracked the top 25 briefly last year after beating UD.

Top to Bottom Strength:

1) A10
2) Gateway
3) SoCon
4) Southland
5) Big Sky
5) Patriot

Honestly, 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 could easily be interchanged IMO.

[WMTribe90]

After looking at this I have to agree with Saint3333. I'm looking at this objectively as I can. The A-10 is definatley the strongest conference from top to bottom right now, Even though Appy won the NC. I think alot of people are not addressing the years involved. Saint's stats speak for themselves. SoCon #1. IMO you take alot of other top tier teams and put them in our conference. Their success rate would drop dramatically. Of course this is just theory. My 2 cents. For the first time in my life I'm agreeing with an Appy...

We're comparing top to bottom strength though. Saint's stats only compare the top three from each conference as it relates to the playoffs. The A10 is clealry stronger (for the periodin question) when you compare the relative strengths from the bottom half of each conference.

[ErkPeterson]

We're comparing top to bottom strength though. Saint's stats only compare the top three from each conference as it relates to the playoffs. The A10 is clealry stronger (for the periodin question) when you compare the relative strengths from the bottom half of each conference.

If thats the case then my bad... I thought that was based on the whole conference. I don't have the time nor energy to dig it all up.

[89Hen]

The point wasn't that four teams made the playoff, but that four of them made the semis.
And five from the A10 did. He was one off, assumingly missing Wofford. (Wofford did have a fortunate draw that year facing #19 NCA&T in the first round and #9 WKU in the quarters) :p

[MR. CHICKEN]

So the conference with 10 out the last 32 semifinalists, 5 out of the last 16 finalists, and 3 out of the last eight national champions is the third best conference :confused: .

Since 1998 SoCon is 8-1 versus the Gateway.

Same timeframe SoCon is 14-13 versus the A-10, including Elon's two losses to Towson, thanks Elon...


AS TRIBAL MEMBERAH...HAS MENTIONED.......WE LOOKIN' AT...TOP TUH BOTTOM.....AFTERAH TOP 3 SOGONES.........ABYSS....:eek:...AWK!

BUT HAVE UH NICE SUMMER.....AN' SEE YA'LL AT HARVEST!

[HensRock]

As for the records I posted earlier I left off VMI,... Congratulations to the A-10 for going 6-0 against VMI from 1998 - 2002. :)


How convienient to leave off VMI. Were they not a member of the SoCon during the time in question. Suppose the A-10 leaves off.....hmmm.....seems I can't find a single A-10 team with anything near an 0-6 record against the SoCon in that timeframe. Best I can do is Hofstra at 0-2. The A-10 has had 10 DIFFERENT teams participate in the playoffs during the period in question.

[Saint3333]

Top half of the league strength:

1. SoCon
2. Gateway
3. A-10

Bottom half of the league strength:

1. A-10
2. Gateway
3. SoCon

So after evaluating the conference from top to bottom as so stated, all three conferences appear to be tied, however in 1-AA we have playoffs.

Playoffs
1. SoCon
2. A-10
3. Gateway

BTW if I can't count Marshall's national championship in prior threads as they are not a current member of the SoCon, why can't I take VMI out of the equation, you can't have it both ways.

[OL FU]

Hey John I think you can skip the last few pages of this threadxcoffeex

Saint, The A-10 guys live for this debate.:rolleyes: Good Luck.:nod: I am headed to bikini land :hurray:

[Saint3333]

Yeah I've gotten sucked into it once again. I'm right behind you, just hope the hurricane doesn't stay around Myrtle Beach too long. Speaking of Myrtle if the SoCon admits CCU, we'll just send their posters in to fight this battle.

[OL FU]

Yeah I've gotten sucked into it once again. I'm right behind you, just hope the hurricane doesn't stay around Myrtle Beach too long. Speaking of Myrtle if the SoCon admits CCU, we'll just send their posters in to fight this battle.

:nod: :nod: :nod: :smiley_wi

[Jaques]

take 544, its all 4 lanes now, better than 501 - you should drive through the campus on your way:thumbsup:

[89Hen]

Top half of the league strength:
1. SoCon
2. Gateway
3. A-10
:confused: How's that? Please rank the top 4 in the SoCon, top 4 in the Gateway and top 6 in the A10 during this time frame so I know what you're thinking.

[Saint3333]

Why don't you put together some numbers to disprove the ranking, I've been providing all types of stats today. xcoffeex

As for the SoCon it is a no brainer, everyone has agreed this entire time that the SoCon is top heavy...xidiotx

[89Hen]

Why don't you put together some numbers to disprove the ranking, I've been providing all types of stats today. xcoffeex

As for the SoCon it is a no brainer, everyone has agreed this entire time that the SoCon is top heavy...xidiotx
I too have provided stats but I'm having trouble finding a fourth team in the SoCon. Wofford? Two playoff wins in the entire period. I was really more questioning how you could have the Gateway at 2.

[JohnStOnge]

Was there a reason you chose those years? .

Yes. It's the period of existence of the BCS. I'm breaking Division I into three groups: BCS I-A, non BCS I-A, and I-AA. I'm looking at head to head records for non BCS I-A vs. BCS I-A, non BCS I-A vs. I-AA, and BCS I-A vs. I-AA. But while I was doing that it occurred to me that it might be interesting to look at the head to head record of non BCS I-A vs. just the top 6 leagues in I-AA; with 6 being the number because when we look at BCS I-A we're looking at the top 6 leagues of I-A.

[JohnStOnge]

Something about top to bottom or some such bullcrap,

Yes. Top to bottom. The reason that's important in this case is that the article I'm writing has to do with the performance of all of the teams in the 6 strongest conferences...not just the playoff teams.

[MR. CHICKEN]

IN DAT CASE:

1. A-10
2. A-10
3. A-10
4. A-10
5. A-10
6. A-10

EVERAH-ONE BUT RHODEY & TOWSON...HAS DONE TIME...AT DUH DANCE....BRAWK!....AN' TOWSON IS UH NEWBIE.........AN' EVEN B/4 BOSTON U. DROPPED DUH PIGGY........DEH MADE IT!.......BRAWK!

xcoffeex xcoffeex xprost2x xcoffeex xcoffeex

[JohnStOnge]

The point wasn't that four teams made the playoff, but that four of them made the semis.

I've already conceded that the A-10 could be 1a, we've been down this road before 89, looks like neither person has changed their mind imagine that.xcoffeex


Just a note on the Southland...which I think is a league that is very balanced program wise. 5 different Southland Programs participated in the semifinals during 1998-2005...though one of them is no longer there (the programs are McNeese, Sam Houston, Texas State, Northwestern State, and Troy State). The only two programs in the Southland that didn't go to the playoffs at least once 1998-2005 are Southeastern Louisiana...which just entered the league last year...and Stephen F. Austin.

Another thing about the Southland, I think, is that it tends to do better in I-AA interconference play during the regular season than it does during the playoffs. I haven't looked at the specific numbers but that's the impression I've gotten. It's been a source of great frustration to me...with the McNeese/Western Kentucky games of 2002 being the most prominent example of what I'm talking about.

[JohnStOnge]

IN DAT CASE:

1. A-10
2. A-10
3. A-10
4. A-10
5. A-10
6. A-10

EVERAH-ONE BUT RHODEY & TOWSON...HAS DONE TIME...AT DUH DANCE....BRAWK!....AN' TOWSON IS UH NEWBIE.........AN' EVEN B/4 BOSTON U. DROPPED DUH PIGGY........DEH MADE IT!.......BRAWK!

xcoffeex xcoffeex xprost2x xcoffeex xcoffeex

The only program in the Southland that has not been to the playoffs is Southeastern Louisiana...and they just re-started their football program. Also, every Southland program that's been to the playoffs has won at least one playoff game (everybody but Nicholls State's won more than that). Five of the current seven Southland programs have been to the semifinals (McNeese 1995, 1997, 2002, SFA 1988, 1995, Northwestern State 1998, Sam Houston State 2004, Texas State 2005). So the only program in the league other than newbie Southeastern Louisiana that's never made it to the semis is Nicholls State. Breaking through to that championship thing has been a real problem, but the league has been very respectable in terms of having a high percentage of its programs get to and advance in the playoffs.

[MR. CHICKEN]

UH..ER...UM.....OH!............................... ...................:o.....AWK!

1. A-10
2. A-10
3. A-10
4. A-10
5. A-10
6. SOUFF-LAND!

[JohnStOnge]

Just for kicks, I looked at the average rank of each league 1998 - 2005 in Sagarin ratings. It came out great except the Patriot League ran afoul of the Ivy and OVC.

Here's how it looks (average rank in parenthesis):

A-10 (2.25)
Big Sky (2.625)
Gateway (2.75)
Southland (3.875)
Southern (4)
Ivy (6.75)
OVC (7)
Patriot (7.375)

What happens with the Patriot, I think, is that it tends to have very low rated teams at the bottom that drag the average down.

Overall it's kind of interesting to look at in those terms. It comes off looking like there are two relatively distinct groups. There's only a 1.75 difference between the average rank of the A-10 and Southern. Then there's a 2.75 difference between the average rank of the Southern and the next league (the Ivy).

[Tod]

The only program in the Southland that has not been to the playoffs is Southeastern Louisiana...and they just re-started their football program. Also, every Southland program that's been to the playoffs has won at least one playoff game (everybody but Nicholls State's won more than that). Five of the current seven Southland programs have been to the semifinals (McNeese 1995, 1997, 2002, SFA 1988, 1995, Northwestern State 1998, Sam Houston State 2004, Texas State 2005). So the only program in the league other than newbie Southeastern Louisiana that's never made it to the semis is Nicholls State. Breaking through to that championship thing has been a real problem, but the league has been very respectable in terms of having a high percentage of its programs get to and advance in the playoffs.

The thread is 1998 - 2005. NCs are SoCon - 3, A-10 - 3, Big Sky - 1, Gateway - 1.

Other things would have to be taken into consideration, of course. But the top two are the A-10 and SoCon.

[eagle1]

1. A10 (From top to bottom this league is the best)
2. Southern (Also a tough league top to bottom)
3. Big Sky (Much better top to bottom then some are giving it credit for)
4. Gateway (UNI helped this league out last fall)
5. Southland (Fairly solid top to bottom)
6. Patriot (Not as solid top to bottom)

Go Eagles!!!

[SoCon48]

I too have provided stats but I'm having trouble finding a fourth team in the SoCon. Wofford? Two playoff wins in the entire period. I was really more questioning how you could have the Gateway at 2.
Wofford has only been in since '97. I think they've proven themselves pretty well in their short I-AA history especially for the smallest school in I-AA.

[colgate13]

What happens with the Patriot, I think, is that it tends to have very low rated teams at the bottom that drag the average down.

You hit the nail on the head there.

From 98-01 it's a two team league. In 2002 Fordham shows up on the scene for two years. After them, Lafayette shows up on the scene for at least two years (this year will be three if they can keep it up).

After that, we've had some of the 'worst' teams in I-AA occupy our cellars.

[OL FU]

You hit the nail on the head there.

From 98-01 it's a two team league. In 2002 Fordham shows up on the scene for two years. After them, Lafayette shows up on the scene for at least two years (this year will be three if they can keep it up).

After that, we've had some of the 'worst' teams in I-AA occupy our cellars.

However, it is the same old never ending argument. Is the strength of the conference based on the best in the conference or the rest in the conference. :eyebrow:

I guess it depends on the conference you prefer.

[colgate13]

However, it is the same old never ending argument. Is the strength of the conference based on the best in the conference or the rest in the conference. :eyebrow:

I guess it depends on the conference you prefer.
I think it depends on both, hence our arguments!

For the PL's sake, it's the top of the league that gets us the #6 spot over the Ivy or the OVC IMO. It's the bottom of the league that prevents us from making a solid argument for the #5 spot. The Southland's got us there.

[OL FU]

I think it depends on both, hence our arguments!

For the PL's sake, it's the top of the league that gets us the #6 spot over the Ivy or the OVC IMO. It's the bottom of the league that prevents us from making a solid argument for the #5 spot. The Southland's got us there.

I agree. Early in this thread I placed the A-10 above the SoCon. I don't think there is much doubt that the A-1o is the most competitive top to bottom. Just look at Northeastern against Georgia Southern last year. The top of the A-10 has changed from year to year but the top of the A-10 has been as good (if not better) as the top of the SoCon during this period. However, it becomes more difficult for me when comparing the SoCon to the Gateway. Both have been successful. One might be able to argue that the lower half of the Gateway has been more competitive within the Gateway while the lower have of the SoCon has not been so competitive in the SoCon. But the reason for that may be the strength of the top teams in the SoCon instead of the weakness of the bottom teams.

Regardless over the period mentioned it would be difficult to argue that the top Gateway teams have been consistently better than the top Socon, in fact dang near impossible.

[89Hen]

Wofford has only been in since '97. I think they've proven themselves pretty well in their short I-AA history especially for the smallest school in I-AA.
That may be true, but what does that have to do with this discussion?

[89Hen]

2. Southern (Also a tough league top to bottom)
3. Big Sky (Much better top to bottom then some are giving it credit for)
Not true when you're talking about top to bottom IMO:
SoCon bottom half...
Elon: 2-10, 3-8, 3-8 in their three years in the SoCon, no playoffs
Citadel: NO winning records in the period, no playoffs
Chatty: one winning record (6-5) in the period we're talking about, no playoffs
WCU: two winning records (6-5 and 7-4), no playoffs

Big Sky fares a little better on the bottom, but with only two teams other than Montana to have won a playoff game in the period (NAU and EWU each won one first round game) the top half is weaker than SoCon...
Sac St 32-57 no playoffs
Weber 38-51 no playoffs
Idaho St 41-48 no playoffs

[Ronbo]

Weber St. and Idaho State are going to be really good this year. They might challenge the Griz. NOT!

[Dukester]

Top to bottom over that time frame A10. As far as the top of the conference over the time frame suggested, I think you could make an argument for the SoCo slightly.

I think the reason everyone intially thinks A10 is 1) because they are so strong top to bottom, and 2) I think the last 3 years(currently) they are/have been on quite a run and the best pretty much any way you want to look at it.

[Bobcat94]

What has the PL done in the playoffs?

SLC has sent three different teams to the I-AA semifinals the last three years...there may not be some strong suits, but the league is very balanced from top to bottom and each year sends a team deep in the playoffs.

The PL needs to step it up before they talk smack! xidiotx

What he said.

Now strickly based on the conference schedule I would not want to play year in and year out:

T1Gateway
T1Southern
T3Southland
T3Big Sky
T3A10
T6Ohio Valley
T6Great West
T6Ivy
T6Patriot

[Tailbone]

What he said.

Now strickly based on the conference schedule I would not want to play year in and year out:

T1Gateway
T1Southern
T3Southland
T3Big Sky
T3A10
T6Ohio Valley
T6Great West
T6Ivy
T6Patriot

Interesting.
I'd love to see the Griz play the best of every conference.....year-in or year-out. :D

[McNeeserocket]

Nova was a team that could have gone to the finals in '02 except for a homer ref call that went against them when they played McNeese.

Did you honestly think that this one FALSE statement would go unnoticed or evoke a no response????

I ask the following questions:

Were you at that game?
Did you watch the game?
Did you watch all the controversial calls in slow motion on tape? There were at least four controversial calls in question.
Did you have some independent (non A-10 and non-Southland) reparable referees look at the calls in slow motion?


If you did not thoroughly study the game tape/footage then you cannot state with any validity as to a "HOMER CALL" causing Villanova to lose a semi-final game in Lake Charles. Just remember that there were no Southland officials or A-10 officials calling the game that night.

The NCAA rules should also be looked at closely, as the rules and the use of the rules by the officiating crew validate the correctness of the two calls that Villanova fans used incorrectly as the basis for their loss.

And finally, if you are using the ESPN game commentators as your authority than you really are using ignorant sources for the basis of your false statement.

[SoCon48]

That may be true, but what does that have to do with this discussion?
Duh, they are included in the period even though they had only bumped fom NAIA/DII etc for only a year by '98, yet in that short time period evolved into a semi-finalist.
Not too bad for a bottom feeder of the SoCon.

[89Hen]

Now strickly based on the conference schedule I would not want to play year in and year out:
T1Gateway
T1Southern
T3Southland
T3Big Sky
T3A10
Tough to compare because of size of conferences. In the A10, you miss three teams each year which could be good or could be bad. You also have to think about who's schedule you're talking about. If you're GSU, FU or ASU, the schedule isn't as bad because you are only facing two of the "big three" but it sure look daunting to Elon. In the Southland it's only six games which does make a difference when talking about toughness of conference schedule. You have to assume that each conference is going to have at least a couple of dogs meaning the Southland may only have four tough conference games. The Southland is like the A10 in that you just don't know over time who those dogs are going to be.

Do you realize that Texas State is the ONLY Southland team to have not been both first and last in the Southland in the timeframe we're talking about... (SELA hasn't been officiall listed in the Southland standings yet) :eyebrow:

1998: NSU 6-1, SHSU 1-6
1999: SFA 6-1, Nicholls 1-6
2000: (Troy 7-0), Nicholls and NSU 1-6
2001: SHSU and McNeese 5-1, Texas State 0-6
2002: MSU 6-0, Texas State 1-5
2003: MSU 5-0, Nicholls 0-5
2004: SHSU and NSU 4-1, SFA and MSU 1-4

[89Hen]

Duh, they are included in the period even though they had only bumped fom NAIA/DII etc for only a year by '98, yet in that short time period evolved into a semi-finalist.
Not too bad for a bottom feeder of the SoCon.
The fact that they moved up in 1997 have nothing to do with anything. They have been a member of the SoCon for the entire period and therefore are included in the overall strength of the conference. Bottom feeder? They are your #4 team in the period. BTW...

1994
Wofford 14 - Furman 14
Wofford 20 - Citadel 6
Wofford 18 - Elon 7 (yes I know Elon was DII then too)

Looks like WC's second best year in the SoCon was when they were DII. :p

[Retro]

Nova was a team that could have gone to the finals in '02 except for a homer ref call that went against them when they played McNeese.

mcneeserocket explained it best... I will add this...

Nova's QB whined about the crowd noise, as if he should get special treatment and if anyone received a bad call it was mcneese on a non-fumble near the goal line.:rolleyes:

[89Hen]

Just remember that there were no Southland officials or A-10 officials calling the game that night.
Ahhh, we're just still bitter about the homer call you guys got in Newark in 1997. :p :bawling:

[blukeys]

Did you honestly think that this one FALSE statement would go unnoticed or evoke a no response????

I ask the following questions:

Were you at that game?
Did you watch the game?
Did you watch all the controversial calls in slow motion on tape? There were at least four controversial calls in question.
Did you have some independent (non A-10 and non-Southland) reparable referees look at the calls in slow motion?


If you did not thoroughly study the game tape/footage then you cannot state with any validity as to a "HOMER CALL" causing Villanova to lose a semi-final game in Lake Charles. Just remember that there were no Southland officials or A-10 officials calling the game that night.

The NCAA rules should also be looked at closely, as the rules and the use of the rules by the officiating crew validate the correctness of the two calls that Villanova fans used incorrectly as the basis for their loss.

And finally, if you are using the ESPN game commentators as your authority than you really are using ignorant sources for the basis of your false statement.


LOL!!!!!!!!!

I was wondering whose goat I was going to get. xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Actually, I agreed with the call. I just wish the officials had consistently called that all season as Nova runs that play all the time and certainly did use it to beat UD at the end of the 2002 season.

I had no sympathy for Nova on "pick" plays and am certainly no Nova fan. :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[Jag4Life]

Results show otherwise Jag.
Most people on this board is for either A-10, Big Sky, Patriot, etc. You guys don't care to mention any HBCU's. Give them a break! You all will see. I wouldn't have a problem scheduling Montana, North Dakota St, South Dakota St, Wofford, nor Furman!

[OL FU]

The fact that they moved up in 1997 have nothing to do with anything. They have been a member of the SoCon for the entire period and therefore are included in the overall strength of the conference. Bottom feeder? They are your #4 team in the period. BTW...

1994
Wofford 14 - Furman 14
Wofford 20 - Citadel 6
Wofford 18 - Elon 7 (yes I know Elon was DII then too)

Looks like WC's second best year in the SoCon was when they were DII. :p

Team Conf. W Conf. L Conf. T Tot. W Tot. L Tot. T
MarshallCC 7 1 0 12 2 0
Appalachian State 6 2 0 9 4 0
Georgia Southern 5 3 0 6 5 0
W. Carolina 5 3 0 6 5 0
E. Tennessee St 4 4 0 6 5 0
The Citadel 4 4 0 6 5 0
Furman 2 6 0 3 8 0
Tennessee Chattanooga 2 6 0 3 8 0
VA Military 1 7 0 1 10 0

1994 maybe not be the most applicable year to say how Wofford would have performed against the top of the conference.:bawling:

[89Hen]

Most people on this board is for either A-10, Big Sky, Patriot, etc. You guys don't care to mention any HBCU's.
Doesn't change the results.

Since 1998...
Grambling 1-1 vs Southland and 1-0 vs Big Sky
AAMU 1-2 vs Southland
Alcorn 1-4 vs Southland
Southern 1-6 vs Southland
JSU 0-2 vs Southland
ASU 0-3 vs Southland and 1-0 vs SoCon (Chattanooga)
PVAM 0-2 vs Southland and 0-2 vs Gateway
MVSU 0-4 vs Southland, 0-1 vs SoCon, 0-1 vs Gateway
TxSo 0-5 vs Southland
So that's 6-33 vs the other conferences mentioned in the top 6.

Also, APB lost four times to DII or NAIA. : smh :

[McNeeserocket]

I wouldn't have a problem scheduling Montana, North Dakota St, South Dakota St, Wofford, nor Furman!

Would you have a problem scheduling a home and away with them? If you would have no problem scheduling a home and away, would you have a problem fullfilling the contract by actually going to their place even when they don't bring half the fans McNeese brought to your house?

Realizing that Southern (or any other team) had any control over the 2005 hurricane season, it still seems in the spirit of fairness and professionalism to make a trip to Lake Charles before scheduling another I-AA out of conference game.

[McNeeserocket]

Ahhh, we're just still bitter about the homer call you guys got in Newark in 1997. :p :bawling:

Your quote may be meant as tongue and cheek, as of course McNeese had no "homer' status in Newark in 1997. As for the call which allowed McNeese one more shot at a first down because of a false start, I think that rule has bitten every team at least once a year. Many ref calls go against a team on this rule, but there are an equal number of this call that work in a team's favor. McNeese just happened to have this call (which was called correctly) go in our favor that day. Of course, the next play took a miraculous catch (still can't believe he made that catch) by the McNeese receiver to get them in field goal position. Perhaps the stars were just lined up correctly for McNeese that day. The next week in the Chattanooga Championship game, it would seem the stars were lined up against McNeese with another call just like this one referenced above going against us.

[89Hen]

but there are an equal number of this call that work in a team's favor.
Considering 90%+ of these calls are blown dead before the play finishes, I highly doubt that.

[McNeeserocket]

Considering 90%+ of these calls are blown dead before the play finishes, I highly doubt that.

You are correct that most are blown dead before the play finishes. Maybe it was the fact that the play wasn't called dead is what caused the pain. It certainly caused McNeese pain the next week with the same penalty on the goal line against Youngstown in a game where two equally tough defenses fought it out all day with a final score of 10 - 9. I believe that is the fewest pts in championship game (4 field goals, one touchdown and one extra point). That one hurt!!! Hurt McNeese that is!

[89Hen]

Maybe it was the fact that the play wasn't called dead is what caused the pain.
Most definitely. :nod: :bawling:

[GeauxColonels]

Do you realize that Texas State is the ONLY Southland team to have not been both first and last in the Southland in the timeframe we're talking about... (SELA hasn't been officiall listed in the Southland standings yet) :eyebrow:

1998: NSU 6-1, SHSU 1-6
1999: SFA 6-1, Nicholls 1-6
2000: (Troy 7-0), Nicholls and NSU 1-6
2001: SHSU and McNeese 5-1, Texas State 0-6
2002: MSU 6-0, Texas State 1-5
2003: MSU 5-0, Nicholls 0-5
2004: SHSU and NSU 4-1, SFA and MSU 1-4
Not entirely accurate, Nicholls State wasn't first in any year during that period - but we sure were last a LOT!

[SoCon48]

The fact that they moved up in 1997 have nothing to do with anything. They have been a member of the SoCon for the entire period and therefore are included in the overall strength of the conference. Bottom feeder? They are your #4 team in the period. BTW...

1994
Wofford 14 - Furman 14
Wofford 20 - Citadel 6
Wofford 18 - Elon 7 (yes I know Elon was DII then too)

Looks like WC's second best year in the SoCon was when they were DII. :p

Marshall and ASU would have beaten the sh-- out of Wofford in 1994. Marshall beat the crap JMU and App beat New Hampshire that year. And yes Elon wasn't in the conference by far yet. So why were they mentioned? Just goes to show how a sukky D-II came to go to the semi-finals of the NCAA I-AA play-offs a few years later. And they are one of worst.

[Retro]

Doesn't change the results.

Since 1998...
Grambling 1-1 vs Southland and 1-0 vs Big Sky
AAMU 1-2 vs Southland
Alcorn 1-4 vs Southland
Southern 1-6 vs Southland
JSU 0-2 vs Southland
ASU 0-3 vs Southland and 1-0 vs SoCon (Chattanooga)
PVAM 0-2 vs Southland and 0-2 vs Gateway
MVSU 0-4 vs Southland, 0-1 vs SoCon, 0-1 vs Gateway
TxSo 0-5 vs Southland
So that's 6-33 vs the other conferences mentioned in the top 6.

Also, APB lost four times to DII or NAIA.

Grambling is 1-2 againest the southland in that they lost both games againest Mcneese and beat 3-8 Nicholls in 2001.

[Freightliner]

Do you realize that Texas State is the ONLY Southland team to have not been both first and last in the Southland in the timeframe we're talking about... (SELA hasn't been officiall listed in the Southland standings yet)

1998: NSU 6-1, SHSU 1-6
1999: SFA 6-1, Nicholls 1-6
2000: (Troy 7-0), Nicholls and NSU 1-6
2001: SHSU and McNeese 5-1, Texas State 0-6
2002: MSU 6-0, Texas State 1-5
2003: MSU 5-0, Nicholls 0-5
2004: SHSU and NSU 4-1, SFA and MSU 1-4


Actually we have been first and last in this timeframe...you forgot the 2005 season.

2005: TXST and Nicholls 5-1 SFA 1-5

[89Hen]

Actually we have been first and last in this timeframe...you forgot the 2005 season.

2005: TXST and Nicholls 5-1 SFA 1-5
Uh, yes, that's what I meant. :bang: I was looking at a historical page that didn't have last year, thanks for the pick-up, that makes my find even better!!

So EVERY team in the Southland has finished first AND last since 1998. I seriously doubt any other conference could claim that.

[89Hen]

Grambling is 1-2 againest the southland in that they lost both games againest Mcneese and beat 3-8 Nicholls in 2001.
Ugh, need more coffee. So that's 6-34 for the SWAC. : smh :

[GeauxColonels]

Grambling is 1-2 againest the southland in that they lost both games againest Mcneese and beat 3-8 Nicholls in 2001.
Ah yes, I remember that game. I believe it was televised on FSN SW in Louisiana and Texas. Early morning game with an 11am kickoff if I remember correctly and GSU was a top 15 team (I want to say actually ranked #8 at that point - but not sure. That game (like a few others in 2001) was closer than the score indicated.

[JohnStOnge]

The thread is 1998 - 2005. NCs are SoCon - 3, A-10 - 3, Big Sky - 1, Gateway - 1.

Other things would have to be taken into consideration, of course. But the top two are the A-10 and SoCon.

Given my purpose, number of national championships is not the best measure to use. I'm trying to come up with a reasonable conclusion/belief about what the top 6 I-AA leagues were during the period so I can compare the records of every team in those leagues against I-A schools. So in this case the bottoms of the leagues are important.

Right now it looks like it's pretty nailed down except that, while I think a conclusion that the A-10, Big Sky, Gateway, Southern, and Southland are the top five I'm not so sure about the Patriot being the 6th because I do put value on power ratings. I will do a more precise thing when I get time but right now, whether or not the 6th of the top 6th top to bottom should be the Patriot, Ivy, or OVC looks kind of fuzzy. Course what I could do is just check the record head to head of the top 5 I-AA leagues against the bottom 5 I-A leagues.

[McNeese75]

Most people on this board is for either A-10, Big Sky, Patriot, etc. You guys don't care to mention any HBCU's. Give them a break! You all will see. I wouldn't have a problem scheduling Montana, North Dakota St, South Dakota St, Wofford, nor Furman!

Jag, and just WHEN would you schedule those teams with your current league game mandate??? And would you agree to a home and home? My guess is you might play them if they agreed to a one game deal on your home field and Montana will not be in BR anytime soon for that deal.

[JohnStOnge]

I made a spreadsheet and took the simple average Sagarin team strength of each conference for the entire period 1998-2005 (only conferences that were around the whole time). Here's how it came out:

A-10 55.36
Gateway 53.26
Big Sky 52.57
Southern 50.35
Southland 49.83
Ivy 45.01
Patriot 42.59
OVC 42.35
MEAC 36.35
SWAC 32.45
Pioneer 24.71
Northeast 18.81
Metro Atlantic 11.48

The Ivy ended 6 of the 8 years with a higher Sagarin conference strength rating than the Patriot's. Also, the simple average team strength of the Ivy was higher than that of the Patriot for 7 of the 8 years (Sagarin uses a "central mean" for its conference strength rating).

So should we consider the possibiltiy that the Ivy belongs in the top 6 rather than the Patriot when it comes to top to bottom strength? I think that if I were to use the Ivy it would be basically using just the top 5 because in looking at the historical results I've gone through so far I can't recall seeing any games between I-As and Ivy teams.

Anybody know what the head to head record of the Ivy is against the Patriot 1998-2005? I know they play each other pretty much.

[89Hen]

The Ivy ended 6 of the 8 years with a higher Sagarin conference strength rating than the Patriot's.
JSO, what do you think about the impact of the playoffs on the final Sagarins? I would think it helped the PL in 2003, but in other years maybe it hurt them?

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

Just a note on the Southland...which I think is a league that is very balanced program wise. 5 different Southland Programs participated in the semifinals during 1998-2005...though one of them is no longer there (the programs are McNeese, Sam Houston, Texas State, Northwestern State, and Troy State). The only two programs in the Southland that didn't go to the playoffs at least once 1998-2005 are Southeastern Louisiana...which just entered the league last year...and Stephen F. Austin.

Another thing about the Southland, I think, is that it tends to do better in I-AA interconference play during the regular season than it does during the playoffs. I haven't looked at the specific numbers but that's the impression I've gotten. It's been a source of great frustration to me...with the McNeese/Western Kentucky games of 2002 being the most prominent example of what I'm talking about.


You're Frustrated????

Try losing to Montana the past 3 times we've been in the Playoffs....:bang: :bang: :bang: . (each time WORSE than the previous)

2001 --- Montana 28 --- Northwestern State 19 :rolleyes:
2002 --- Montana 45 --- Northwestern State 14 :mad:
2004 --- Montana 56 --- Northwestern State 7 :bang: :bang: :bang:

Add to that list the 1998 loss to UMASS 41-31 (Which hurt the most because I truly thought that was our year :bawling: )

Now that's frustration my friend:bang: :bang: :bang:

Oh well....That's in the past..time to move on.

FORK'EM DEMONS :thumbsup:

By da way, McNeese has a case in this also...most of those you have already explained;) .

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

Did you honestly think that this one FALSE statement would go unnoticed or evoke a no response????

I ask the following questions:

Were you at that game?
Did you watch the game?
Did you watch all the controversial calls in slow motion on tape? There were at least four controversial calls in question.
Did you have some independent (non A-10 and non-Southland) reparable referees look at the calls in slow motion?


If you did not thoroughly study the game tape/footage then you cannot state with any validity as to a "HOMER CALL" causing Villanova to lose a semi-final game in Lake Charles. Just remember that there were no Southland officials or A-10 officials calling the game that night.

The NCAA rules should also be looked at closely, as the rules and the use of the rules by the officiating crew validate the correctness of the two calls that Villanova fans used incorrectly as the basis for their loss.

And finally, if you are using the ESPN game commentators as your authority than you really are using ignorant sources for the basis of your false statement.

Something told me that game was gonna come up eventually.:)

[PantherRob82]

As long as there is no mention of the OVC I don't care about the order. Play it out on the field. Every year this arguement comes up.

[CrunchGriz]

You're Frustrated????

Try losing to Montana the past 3 times we've been in the Playoffs....:bang: :bang: :bang: . (each time WORSE than the previous)

2001 --- Montana 28 --- Northwestern State 19 :rolleyes:
2002 --- Montana 45 --- Northwestern State 14 :mad:
2004 --- Montana 56 --- Northwestern State 7 :bang: :bang: :bang:

Add to that list the 1998 loss to UMASS 41-31 (Which hurt the most because I truly thought that was our year :bawling: )

Now that's frustration my friend:bang: :bang: :bang:

Oh well....That's in the past..time to move on.

FORK'EM DEMONS :thumbsup:

By da way, McNeese has a case in this also...most of those you have already explained;) .

I don't know...I rather enjoyed those three games, although the first one was a little tense for a half (Nall was very good).

The last one was amazing. It seemed like every time I looked up Lex Hilliard was flying down the field headed for the endzone alone again.

Lex is gonna be huge for the Griz this year--just my gut feeling (after he went for over 1300 yards last year despite everyone from the concessionaires to the opponents' ball boys knowing that the Griz were going to run most of the time--a good passing game will make him even more dangerous this year).

Oh, and back to the subject at hand...the six strongest leagues are...what everyone else said above. ;)

[Tod]

...Lex is gonna be huge for the Griz this year--just my gut feeling...

Gutsy call. :rolleyes:

[Bobcat94]

Uh, yes, that's what I meant. :bang: I was looking at a historical page that didn't have last year, thanks for the pick-up, that makes my find even better!!

So EVERY team in the Southland has finished first AND last since 1998. I seriously doubt any other conference could claim that.

Thanks Freight, I just now read this and was about to correct it. I think Hen, you see my point. I think year in and year out those conferences are just hard to win. With all of I-AA if you can figure a way to win on the road that is truly the key. You have got to win two or three on the road in every conference. I think every year with the conferences listed, there is no gaurantee of two wins on the road. I guess what I am saying is that from top to bottom it gets easier to predict two road wins, that's my basis for my list.

[89Hen]

I think Hen, you see my point. I think year in and year out those conferences are just hard to win... that's my basis for my list.
It's a thin line between depth and parity. While nobody else can claim the amazing feat of having all teams finish first and last, I'm not sure that speaks to the overall strength of the league compared to the other conferences. With you champion going out in the first round several times during this time period, that really hurts your case for strength.

1998: NSU 6-1 (made semis)
1999: Troy and SFA 6-1 (Troy lost in second round, SFA no playoffs)
2000: Troy 7-0 (lost first round)
2001: SHSU and McNeese 5-1 (SHSU lost second round, MSU lost first)
2002: MSU 6-0 (National runner-up)
2003: MSU 5-0 (lost first round)
2004: SHSU and NSU 4-1 (SHSU lost in semis, NSU first round)
2005: TexasSt and Nicholls 5-1 (TexasSt semis, Nicholls first round)

[CrunchGriz]

Gutsy call. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know, but by huge I meant

HUGE

as in 1700-2000 yards and around 6 yds/carry huge, not a mere 1300+ yards like last season.

A lot depends on how fast the O-line meshes, of course, but having a decent (or better ;) ) passing game will do wonders for Lex.

[JohnStOnge]

It's a thin line between depth and parity. While nobody else can claim the amazing feat of having all teams finish first and last, I'm not sure that speaks to the overall strength of the league compared to the other conferences. With you champion going out in the first round several times during this time period, that really hurts your case for strength.

I've always argued, with respect to both I-A and bowls as well as I-AA and playoffs, that just using the post season is not a good way to assess top to bottom conference strength. The reason is obvious: The majority of teams in each conference don't go to the playoffs.

Since I'm familiar with it I'll use some things that happened in 2004 with the Southland to illustrate. That year, including both regular season and playoffs, the league had a respectable performance in that it was 3-1 against the Gateway, 4-2 against the Big Sky, 3-4 against the Great West, and 1-2 against the Southern (I don't think they played the A-10).

Nicholls State, which went 2-3 in the Southland, beat Eastern Washington, which went 6-1 in the Big Sky. Stephen F. Austin, which went 1-4 in the Southland, beat Northern Iowa, which went 5-2 in the Gateway. The Lumberjacks also beat Northern Arizona, which went 3-4 in the Big Sky. Sam Houston did lose 13-34 to Montana in the playoffs but also beat the Griz 41-29 during the regular season.

The point isn't that the Southland is the toughest league, it's not. The point is that I don't think it's valid to ignore things like those 2004 Nicholls State/Eastern Washington, SFA/Northern Iowa, and Sam Houston/Montana regular season games in gauging top to bottom conference strength.

Especially when the purpose is something like what my purpose is...which is to look at how all the teams from whatever the top 6 I-AA conferences are did against I-As during the 1998-2005 regular seasons.

[89Hen]

I've always argued, with respect to both I-A and bowls as well as I-AA and playoffs, that just using the post season is not a good way to assess top to bottom conference strength. The reason is obvious: The majority of teams in each conference don't go to the playoffs.
I agree it's not the end all/be all but it is the most accurate IMO. The reason is because it pits two teams of similar stature against each other. When a 5-3 team from one confernce beats a 3-5 team from another or vice versa, it's hard to say what that really means.

An example would be a lot of fans of the Big Sky like to point out their good OOC record and often will point to 2004 and Montana's wins over Maine and Hofstra. Is it really a big deal for Montana to have beaten both? Montana beat all but one of their Big Sky mates and both Maine and Hofstra had 5 A10 losses. That really tells us nothing more then that Montana was a good Big Sky team and HU and UM were not good A10 teams that year. I think JMU would have probably beaten almost everyone in the Big Sky that year as evidenced by them beating Montana in the NC. It's VERY rare that we get a regular season OOC match-up of teams that are in similar places in their respective conferences. :twocents:

[Tod]

Yeah, I know, but by huge I meant

HUGE

as in 1700-2000 yards and around 6 yds/carry huge, not a mere 1300+ yards like last season.

A lot depends on how fast the O-line meshes, of course, but having a decent (or better ;) ) passing game will do wonders for Lex.

I'd love to see that! 2,000 yards won't happen unless we go deep into the playoffs, but I think we'll do that.

I still don't think he'll get those 2,000 yards, mind you, but I think it's at least possible if we go to at least the semifinals.

[DaBears]

You guys are right about the Big Sky. It's Montana and the 8 step children. They can't win playoff games so they deserve zero respect.


Man I wish Montana would go I-A so I wouldn't have to listen to their arrogant fans' attitudes anymore. Really it's kinda funny because Montana gets no respect in the I-A venue in which they so desperately wish they were a part.

For as much smack as montana fans talk you would think that they win the I-AA championship every other year when they have only won twice. Two championships would be impressive for any other school but it is P&%$ poor for a school that thinks they are as great as montana does.

[Tod]

Man I wish Montana would go I-A so I wouldn't have to listen to their arrogant fans' attitudes anymore. Really it's kinda funny because Montana gets no respect in the I-A venue in which they so desperately wish they were a part.

For as much smack as montana fans talk you would think that they win the I-AA championship every other year when they have only won twice. Two championships would be impressive for any other school but it is P&%$ poor for a school that thinks they are as great as montana does.

Dude, it's RONBO. xidiotx

Tell me which other Griz fans have egos like that.

[Ronbo]

I'd say anyone that would put that tattoo all over their back and then post it for the entire world to see has a much bigger ego than me.:eyebrow: I just tell it like it is and all the folks here know it, we are in a Conference that is Montana year after year. The others have their little 2 year runs where they challange then they go away again. Watch EWU this year. Welcome to the Big Sky DaBears. You'll have the Yankee syndrome about the Griz too, we are the team the have nots love to hate.

I've noticed you're quite the sandbagger Tod. Is telling the other guys they are better than they are the PC thing to do?


Really it's kinda funny because Montana gets no respect in the I-A venue in which they so desperately wish they were a part.
This is funny because at the WAC message boards they are very supportive of the Griz and are begging us to come aboard. One thing I notice about I-A conferences is that because they share TV revenue they all root for each other to be successful. They are quite supportive of their other members except when they play. One thing all WAC fans say is that the Griz are a I-A program playing in I-AA and that they would be very successful in the WAC. Now that's disrespect if I ever heard it. In comparison the Griz are loathed in the Big Sky and every school roots for us to fail because our success has no benefit to their programs.

[ngineer]

I made a spreadsheet and took the simple average Sagarin team strength of each conference for the entire period 1998-2005 (only conferences that were around the whole time). Here's how it came out:

A-10 55.36
Gateway 53.26
Big Sky 52.57
Southern 50.35
Southland 49.83
Ivy 45.01
Patriot 42.59
OVC 42.35
MEAC 36.35
SWAC 32.45
Pioneer 24.71
Northeast 18.81
Metro Atlantic 11.48

The Ivy ended 6 of the 8 years with a higher Sagarin conference strength rating than the Patriot's. Also, the simple average team strength of the Ivy was higher than that of the Patriot for 7 of the 8 years (Sagarin uses a "central mean" for its conference strength rating).

So should we consider the possibiltiy that the Ivy belongs in the top 6 rather than the Patriot when it comes to top to bottom strength? I think that if I were to use the Ivy it would be basically using just the top 5 because in looking at the historical results I've gone through so far I can't recall seeing any games between I-As and Ivy teams.

Anybody know what the head to head record of the Ivy is against the Patriot 1998-2005? I know they play each other pretty much.

Can't give you the stats on that, although I imagine they exist somewhere. Over the 8 years I'd say the W-L records between the two conferences is fairly close, and wouldn't be surprised if the Ivy had the edge with the late '90's included. Part of the problem is that the Ivies never (or hardley ever) step up in their OOC by playing A-10's or SoCons or I-A's. The PL has done that frequently, and the majority of the time is on the short end of the stick. Plus the playoffs. It's a close call in my view. I only know that Lehigh has dominated the Ivy during that time span with a 19-2 record...:read:

[McNeese75]

What's this, bickering amoung dabears fans on THIS BOARD :eek:

The ego comes with success and that just makes sweeter for the other programs when they do manage to take them down :D

I don't agree with Ronbo on the nonsupport of conference teams. I will always pull for an SLC team in an OOC game. :nod:

[Ronbo]

You're not in the Big Sky 75, every year we are the "game of the year" for every school in the Conference. These fans consider their season a success if they beat us even if they don't make the playoffs. There is better support in the SoCon, A10, and Southland than there is in the Big Sky. The support in the Big Sky is all the schools hoping each week that whoever is playing Montana wins.

[McNeese75]

You're not in the Big Sky 75, every year we are the "game of the year" for every school in the Conference. These fans consider their season a success if they beat us even if they don't make the playoffs. There is better support in the SoCon, A10, and Southland than there is in the Big Sky. The support in the Big Sky is all the schools hoping each week that whoever is playing Montana wins.

Been there done that Ronbo. McNeese won the SLC three years straight (2001-2003) and we never face a conference team that is not chomping at the bit to take us down. Although, I would hope our SLC comrades would pull for us in OOC games.

[89Hen]

Can't give you the stats on that, although I imagine they exist somewhere. Over the 8 years I'd say the W-L records between the two conferences is fairly close, and wouldn't be surprised if the Ivy had the edge with the late '90's included.
God you guys are lazy (or sly to get me to do it)...

The PL is 71-65 from 1998-2005 not counting Towson (71-68 counting Towson).

Colgate 23-2
1998:3-0
1999:3-0
2000:3-0
2001:2-0
2002:3-1
2003:4-0
2004:3-1
2005:2-1

Lehigh 19-2
1998:3-0
1999:3-0
2000:4-0
2001:2-0
2002:3-1
2003:1-1
2004:1-0
2005:2-0

Bucknell 8-9
1998:1-2
1999:1-1
2000:2-0
2001:1-0
2002:1-0
2003:0-3
2004:2-1
2005:0-2

Georgetown 1-2
2003:1-0
2005:0-2

Lafayette 8-17
1998:0-3
1999:1-2
2000:1-3
2001:1-2
2002:1-2
2003:2-1
2004:1-2
2005:1-2

Fordham 6-16
1998:1-2
1999:0-5 (ouch, they finished last in two confernces)
2000:0-3
2001:1-2
2002:1-1
2003:2-0
2004:1-1
2005:0-2

Holy Cross 6-17
1998:0-3
1999:0-2
2000:2-2
2001:1-2
2002:0-3
2003:0-3
2004:1-1
2005:2-1

Towson 0-3
1999:0-1
2002:0-1
2003:0-1

[89Hen]

There is better support in the SoCon, A10, and Southland than there is in the Big Sky. The support in the Big Sky is all the schools hoping each week that whoever is playing Montana wins.
I'm not buying that. Once BSC teams are out, I'll bet they pull for UM or EWU or MSU or NAU... in the playoffs and certainly against OOC's.

[Ronbo]

Been there done that Ronbo. McNeese won the SLC three years straight (2001-2003) and we never face a conference team that is not chomping at the bit to take us down. Although, I would hope our SLC comrades would pull for us in OOC games.

Yeah you would hope. Last year you should have heard the smack after we played SDSU to a 7-0 score. Don't bet for even one moment they weren't dissappointed we didn't lose that one. Nope Montana going 0-11 is what our brethren pray for.

[Frosty The Snowbuff]

What's this, bickering amoung dabears fans on THIS BOARD :eek:

The ego comes with success and that just makes sweeter for the other programs when they do manage to take them down :D

I don't agree with Ronbo on the nonsupport of conference teams. I will always pull for an SLC team in an OOC game. :nod:

Even Us????????;)

[JohnStOnge]

God you guys are lazy (or sly to get me to do it)...

The PL is 71-65 from 1998-2005 not counting Towson (71-68 counting Towson).



That's close. Plus you've got the fact that two programs at the top of the Patriot are 42-4 against the Ivy but all the other programs in the other programs in the Patriot have losing records in the head to head. So you've basically got a "top heavy" Patriot situation.

Nothing's ever simple! To me it still looks like identification of the top 5 I-AA "top to bottom" I-AA leagues is clear cut but identification of that sixth league isn't.

I think what I may do is make it the top six "playoff participating" leagues. Then it looks pretty clear that the group would be A-10, Big Sky, Gateway, Patriot, Southern, and Southland. I feel like it's pretty legit to go with the Patriot over the OVC since it's the perception of people who've responded here, is consistent with the Sagarin conference strength ratings, and the Patriot has had more playoff success.

[McNeese75]

Even Us????????;)

Yep, even the Shemons Frosty :D (My youngest son is actually a 2005 Demon Grad :bang: )

[GeauxColonels]

Been there done that Ronbo. McNeese won the SLC three years straight (2001-2003) and we never face a conference team that is not chomping at the bit to take us down. Although, I would hope our SLC comrades would pull for us in OOC games.
Out of Conference games, SURE!:nod:
SLC games are another story!:cool:

[GtFllsGriz]

There are so many variables that make up the "best conference" title and many of them have already been discussed on this thread. I am one Griz fan that believes the Big Sky Conference took a serious hit in talent and conference strength when Boise State, Idaho and Nevada (Reno) left the conference. Montana was maintaining with them when they departed but it was a dog fight every year. I wish we still had them. History shows how tough they were with the playoff wins and NC's that the Big Sky had back in the day.

However, that being said, I think that our Big Sky foes are catching up and we will once again be a very tough conference. Frankly, it already is. I don't think anyone ever overlooks a Big Sky opponent in either OOC games or playoff games.

I agree with Rombo, that until the BSC starts winning playoff games consistently and produces a NC other than Montana they will not be regarded as a power conference. I personally think that it is inevitable that it will happen someday.

Most BSC teams play the Griz tougher than many playoff contenders but that is to be expected when you play those same teams year after year and they know that the road to the playoffs go through Missoula. Then you add in the difficulty that it is for a team to prepare for a team they have never seen before, or very infrequently, in one week during the playoff run and it makes it very difficult to win on the road in the playoffs.

DaBears, I'm sorry that you feel all Griz supporters are braggards. I think that in time as a BSC team you will find that the Griz faithfull are very gracious winners and losers. Most never take any game for granted. I certainly didn't when the Bears played us very tough a few years ago and you were a D II team. I fully expect the Bears to become a very good BSC team in the future and look forward to some great matchups.

[Tailbone]

........
DaBears, .... I fully expect the Bears to become a very good BSC team in the future and look forward to some great matchups.

Until then......
Beginning life in the Big-Sky with "little brother" syndrome is a poor, poor way to start. :nonono2:

[McNeese75]

Out of Conference games, SURE!:nod:
SLC games are another story!:cool:

You got it!!! :anim_chai :nod:

[GeauxColonels]

You got it!!! :anim_chai :nod:
All in good fun!:beerchug: :spank: : smash :

[89Hen]

I don't think anyone ever overlooks a Big Sky opponent in either OOC games or playoff games.
I don't think anybody overlooks anybody in the playoffs, but the Big Sky - Montana since 1997 is pretty bad.

[JohnStOnge]

There are so many variables that make up the "best conference" title and many of them have already been discussed on this thread.

The way I've always compared conferences is this: Take two conferences. Look at all the teams in each conference. Think about what would likely happen if every team in conference A played every team in conference B. Is it likely that more games in such a series would be won by conference A or that more would be won by conference B? To me, the one that's more likely to win that series is the tougher conference.

That's why I think just looking at playoff success is misleading. I think it's very possible to have one league enjoy more playoff success than another yet not be as tough a conference overall.
Doesn't matter for this, though. I'm looking for the top 6, not the top ONE.